As I said earlier and will keep arguing, the problem with the update was not the bans. It was the communication. It CONTINUES to be the communication, or lack thereof, at the core of almost all Standard and Modern issues. Especially Modern issues. Because Wizards is so insistent on opaque format management, players have no idea what to expect. Of course, bans are the primary problem on everyone's minds. Looking over this thread, I've seen ban suggestions for most top and low tier decks with previously reasonable users plunging into Wizards-induced ban mania. If Wizards gave better information about bans, Modern direction, their view of format health, etc., then this would be mitigated.
I'm willing to bet that the communication is nonexistent and that it seems opaque because it is not really an ongoing process for them. Here, it is actively discussed by a ton of people. At headquarters, modern banlist might be a monthly hour long meeting between 4 guys, or just even a quick update memo about MTGO's stats.
I think one of the most important things to remember is that bans effectively 'give us back' more cards than we lose. If Dredge isn't a constant tier 1 threat then perhaps we get back Abzan company *as an entire deck*. That's a huuuuge positive for the format I think and for as many people cry about their investments being banned out, many other investments are 'soft banned' because of format mismanagement.
Problem is that next time, they'll ban something out of that "new" Abzan for reasons that don't really make sense.
These cards aren't doing the job. They're not free-ish. They're proactive, not reactive.
Modern has a power level very ripe for FoW, it's just been barely contained by bans. And modern power level can only grow.
The only problem with FoW is it's blue only. Right now, white could need it too.
These cards ARE doing their job, they're just a bit overmatched.
If they're overmatched, they are not doing their job.
Cute, but don't ignore everything else I said. All of those tools are the correct tools, we just need a few more and some better selection of those tools (preordain!).
Correct tools in a format where they ban every new problematic card/deck.
A self-regulating format needs better tools.
These cards aren't doing the job. They're not free-ish. They're proactive, not reactive.
Modern has a power level very ripe for FoW, it's just been barely contained by bans. And modern power level can only grow.
The only problem with FoW is it's blue only. Right now, white could need it too.
These cards ARE doing their job, they're just a bit overmatched.
If they're overmatched, they are not doing their job.
No to MM. Modern's four best police cards are Bolt, Path, IoK, and TS. MM is too splashable for too many unfair decks that need to defend their pieces. MM also just degenerates the format into MM wars. Maybe Modern needs a free counterspell, but just because we don't have an optimal one currently, doesn't mean we should go all in on the busted and demonstrably broken MM.
Agreed. MM makes formats 56 cards decks.
The free counterspell needed is FoW. The ditch a blue card makes it perfect.
Why are you against a safety valve?
This is what is needed to keep combo and hyperfast aggro in check.
This would help manage the format without bans...
These cards aren't doing the job. They're not free-ish. They're proactive, not reactive.
Modern has a power level very ripe for FoW, it's just been barely contained by bans. And modern power level can only grow.
The only problem with FoW is it's blue only. Right now, white could need it too.
No to MM. Modern's four best police cards are Bolt, Path, IoK, and TS. MM is too splashable for too many unfair decks that need to defend their pieces. MM also just degenerates the format into MM wars. Maybe Modern needs a free counterspell, but just because we don't have an optimal one currently, doesn't mean we should go all in on the busted and demonstrably broken MM.
Agreed. MM makes formats 56 cards decks.
The free counterspell needed is FoW. The ditch a blue card makes it perfect.
Why are you against a safety valve?
This is what is needed to keep combo and hyperfast aggro in check.
This would help manage the format without bans...
No to MM. Modern's four best police cards are Bolt, Path, IoK, and TS. MM is too splashable for too many unfair decks that need to defend their pieces. MM also just degenerates the format into MM wars. Maybe Modern needs a free counterspell, but just because we don't have an optimal one currently, doesn't mean we should go all in on the busted and demonstrably broken MM.
Agreed. MM makes formats 56 cards decks.
The free counterspell needed is FoW. The ditch a blue card makes it perfect.
I said this when the stoneforge mystic promo was made and I'll say it again. Wizards said they will never unban have the mindsculptor and/or stoneforge mystic7 because of what they did when they were standard. When jace was in standard he was in 70-80% of all winning decks and it was one of the most degenerative control decks ever in standard. I can't find the article I got that statistic from (considering it was 6 years ago) but I do have a link to the 2010 worlds in which 50% of the decks listed had Jace. http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=5400
Yeah well, that was STANDARD. Modern is a different beast altogether and these cards should be allowed a pass.
Jace is slow and SFM is what white needs to be a thing. Also, as said a hundred million times, maybe batterskull is the baddie.
I'll pass.
EVeryone thought nephilim where awesome 4 colors done right.
None of these come close to even the less interesting nephilim.
They could just have rethought them a bit and it would have been ok.
There's more to it than that as well. The card design has changed so that the power curve of m15 and forward is much lower than it was in past sets. Most of the power from newer cards is from synergy with other cards. This is not so in older sets.
Yeah well this shift happens once in a while, like a pendulum. Sometimes the power goes up, sometimes down.
If power level NOW is low, it doesn't mean it'll stay that way. Alara was low power compared to Innistrad for instance...
Not really. This is a complete change of card and power curve design we are talking about. Kahns is as strong as things will get and that power came with having to dip into multiple colors.
And you're the definitive authority on mtg's future power level? *scoffs*
No, but you don't have to be to see Lightning Bolt -> Lightning Strike and Shock -> Galvanic Blast -> Galvanic Bombardment, Fiery Impulse. They've been working on trying to solve the problem of having a single digit point system for a long time along with understanding how to properly cost things like card draw and life gain. They were also trying to understand how much power to put behind spells that require more than one type of colored mana as well. Cards like Boros Charm and Glimpse the Unthinkable punch above their weight because Wizards didn't realize how effectively people could fix their mana base to compensate the needed costs. They did another attempt with Dragons of Tarkir with the command cycle, which involved lowering the power a tad of the individual effects, but up the number of choices and the cost. Unfortunately I think they still ended up off the mark on three of them and only really got it right with Ojutai's Command and Dramoka's Command. Atarka's Command is just really powerful, while Silumgar's Command was a complete waste of deck space.
So people can be skeptical all they want and say the power is going to go up and down, but there's going to be a lot less of it going forward unless they break new waters and introduce another nightmare like phyrexian mana.
Lightning bolt wasn't reprinted for a long time. then they brought it back with m10. Now, they say mana dorks at g is too strong for standard, but honestly, you really beleive they'll never print mystic elves in standard?
I am no authority but I assure you it's coming back sometime.
There's more to it than that as well. The card design has changed so that the power curve of m15 and forward is much lower than it was in past sets. Most of the power from newer cards is from synergy with other cards. This is not so in older sets.
Yeah well this shift happens once in a while, like a pendulum. Sometimes the power goes up, sometimes down.
If power level NOW is low, it doesn't mean it'll stay that way. Alara was low power compared to Innistrad for instance...
Not really. This is a complete change of card and power curve design we are talking about. Kahns is as strong as things will get and that power came with having to dip into multiple colors.
And you're the definitive authority on mtg's future power level? *scoffs*
There's more to it than that as well. The card design has changed so that the power curve of m15 and forward is much lower than it was in past sets. Most of the power from newer cards is from synergy with other cards. This is not so in older sets.
Yeah well this shift happens once in a while, like a pendulum. Sometimes the power goes up, sometimes down.
If power level NOW is low, it doesn't mean it'll stay that way. Alara was low power compared to Innistrad for instance...
I do strongly believe that the Frontier format is what a lot of players want, though. Not for reasons of finance, but for reasons of deck building sanity and not dealing with hyper efficiency and pure good stuff cards that plague modern. There are still pure good stuff cards in the Frontier format, but they are far and few between compared to the plethora present in modern at this point. Also, I'm rather excited to play with deck ideas that combine the best of M15 and forward compared to having to delve into magics ancient history.
This is the very fallacy that makes people re-invent modern/extended over and pover again. The thing is that with every non-rotating format, it's going to be dominated by the mistakes WotC makes every set. Witg time, the format will converge towards hyper efficient good stuff. For the moment it's CoCo, until they print some more broken stuff in other colors then this will shape the format. It's a downward spiral no ban list can manage.
What fallacy? When this format gets too efficient players will simply flock to a new one, as has happened about four separate times in the past (Vintage, legacy, Over-Extended, Modern). In 10 more years they will be talking about what comes after Frontier, and so on. Giving people what they want isn't a fallacy, it is good business sense.
Firstly, people want a non rotating format so they can keep playing their cards.
Other than that comes the concerns on price, card availability, tournament support and such.
If it weren't for the scarce or non existent reprints we wouldn't even be discussing this.
Good business sens dictates they'd print cards people want to play. And they've started doing that with EMA, MM and other supplemental products.
I do strongly believe that the Frontier format is what a lot of players want, though. Not for reasons of finance, but for reasons of deck building sanity and not dealing with hyper efficiency and pure good stuff cards that plague modern. There are still pure good stuff cards in the Frontier format, but they are far and few between compared to the plethora present in modern at this point. Also, I'm rather excited to play with deck ideas that combine the best of M15 and forward compared to having to delve into magics ancient history.
This is the very fallacy that makes people re-invent modern/extended over and pover again. The thing is that with every non-rotating format, it's going to be dominated by the mistakes WotC makes every set. Witg time, the format will converge towards hyper efficient good stuff. For the moment it's CoCo, until they print some more broken stuff in other colors then this will shape the format. It's a downward spiral no ban list can manage.
Anything that is trying to be budget (except pauper) will only be budget at the start when it's not popular. If it gains traction, the demand will rise and so will prices. It's inevitable.
I'm willing to bet that the communication is nonexistent and that it seems opaque because it is not really an ongoing process for them. Here, it is actively discussed by a ton of people. At headquarters, modern banlist might be a monthly hour long meeting between 4 guys, or just even a quick update memo about MTGO's stats.
Problem is that next time, they'll ban something out of that "new" Abzan for reasons that don't really make sense.
Correct tools in a format where they ban every new problematic card/deck.
A self-regulating format needs better tools.
If they're overmatched, they are not doing their job.
These cards aren't doing the job. They're not free-ish. They're proactive, not reactive.
Modern has a power level very ripe for FoW, it's just been barely contained by bans. And modern power level can only grow.
The only problem with FoW is it's blue only. Right now, white could need it too.
Why are you against a safety valve?
This is what is needed to keep combo and hyperfast aggro in check.
This would help manage the format without bans...
Agreed. MM makes formats 56 cards decks.
The free counterspell needed is FoW. The ditch a blue card makes it perfect.
Yeah well, that was STANDARD. Modern is a different beast altogether and these cards should be allowed a pass.
Jace is slow and SFM is what white needs to be a thing. Also, as said a hundred million times, maybe batterskull is the baddie.
EVeryone thought nephilim where awesome 4 colors done right.
None of these come close to even the less interesting nephilim.
They could just have rethought them a bit and it would have been ok.
Lightning bolt wasn't reprinted for a long time. then they brought it back with m10. Now, they say mana dorks at g is too strong for standard, but honestly, you really beleive they'll never print mystic elves in standard?
I am no authority but I assure you it's coming back sometime.
And you're the definitive authority on mtg's future power level? *scoffs*
Yeah well this shift happens once in a while, like a pendulum. Sometimes the power goes up, sometimes down.
If power level NOW is low, it doesn't mean it'll stay that way. Alara was low power compared to Innistrad for instance...
Firstly, people want a non rotating format so they can keep playing their cards.
Other than that comes the concerns on price, card availability, tournament support and such.
If it weren't for the scarce or non existent reprints we wouldn't even be discussing this.
Good business sens dictates they'd print cards people want to play. And they've started doing that with EMA, MM and other supplemental products.
This is the very fallacy that makes people re-invent modern/extended over and pover again. The thing is that with every non-rotating format, it's going to be dominated by the mistakes WotC makes every set. Witg time, the format will converge towards hyper efficient good stuff. For the moment it's CoCo, until they print some more broken stuff in other colors then this will shape the format. It's a downward spiral no ban list can manage.