The thing I am most unsure of my creature package. I think Ill add a Godo, Bandit Warlord as soon as I get my hands on one, and add a Sword of Feast and Famine as well to have something to fetch when I already have Batterskull
Also Ill put a Liliana Vess in there for sure, maybe even a Sorin Markov
Hey guys. I am new to commander and I am a fairly competitive minded player. I picked up the precon Grixis deck, and after looking through it, i removed most of the cards in there
I am a control player at heart, so I went for a "draw hard, control harder" kind of a deck
Right now my build is looking like this, and I would love some tips and suggestions what to change
B/W aggro looks viable, but I dont know if its good enough compared to the existing aggro decks
this cards is crying for an esper control deck to go with, maybe even playing bloodline keeper since they have a good sinergy and are both great cards on their own. Also maybe a Solar Flare build
we shall see, but he will be a player in the metagame for sure, he is too powerful not to be
I have to agree-- every time you drop a Gideon, the opponent kinda looks at you like you pulled off something illegal. After all, just like Dymeter says, he has no synergy with the deck, but the fact that he's so good justifies his slots in the deck well. I think that any variant *could* benefit from running him as either a 1 or 2-of (or even 3-of if you want to take that route).
I changed around to a Leak-less version of the deck after tweaking (and getting my face beat with Tempered Steel and Infect), and one of my Lilis got pilfered... If your meta has a lot of aggro, do you still feel comfortable about Dissipate in the mainboard?
Also... what is your reasoning for Gruesome Encore? I guess it's good in this deck where we're blowing up creatures left and right, but... just how good is it? I'm just curious to hear it from other people who have tried it... please let me know.
Aggro-heavy Metagame makes the Dissipate a sideboard card at best, since its really bad vs aggro decks (too slow). The two slots for the Dissipate in my deck are now taken by an aditional Oblivion ring and a Timely Reinforcements
Gruesome Encore seems neat, but I tend to dislike cards that depend what the opponent has in the graveyard. The Flare deck is one that uses reanimation only as a bonus, and I'd much rather Sever my oponents board than try to fight his graveyard. Again this is not that Gruesome Encore doesnt do the job, its just that I prefer going in this direction.
Also I have a feeling that people give the Solar Flare GY too much credit, and should focus more on board control, permission and having their own card advantage flow. Maybe I am wrong, I dont know.
--------------------
I would also like to make another note that Liliana is... bad.... vs most aggro decks (especially RDW), so in an aggro heavy enviroment she is not the best 4-of in a decklist
I tryed Tribute to Hunger, but its just not good enough imo. It is fighting for the same spot as Liliana and she has ALOT more utility. Plus the lifegain is not as good as it looks on paper, not to mention that most decks that run Geist/Thrun tend to have atleast 1 more creature on the board. The nice part is them being Legendary and that the Image can copy them past the Hexproofness, so the immage is a surtain removal for them + its more flexible.
As for Memoricide, I havent tested it yet, but I dont see many decks (outside of maybe Burning Vengance if it becomes a big player) that has 1 single target that they cant win without. Maybe Primeval Titan, but that didnt help control decks even when it was with Valakut. I would much rather put Flashfreeze in SB if these two decks begin to show up here (and the WolfRamp is looking to do so)
In Mirror its always better to use Spellbomb/Surgical/Sever the bloodlines imo, all are very good and a trump card, just working in diferent ways, and the memoricide doesnt have the mana cost or the board effect like the rest of the solutions. In my case betwean the 2 Sever the Bloodlines and 2 Dissipate I think I am handling mirror very well for now.
Again this are my opinions from the testing I have done, if some of you guys have tested something that contradicts my ideas please share them with me
I really like your list. Once you get your Lilianas, what will you take out for them? How has three DoJ in your 75 been for you? Does Ratchet Bomb act as your 4th DoJ? How was Dead Weight? How was Sever the Bloodline? How was Gideon? How have the Mana Leaks been for you? Any chance you would drop to 3? or drop them all together? Lastly, how do you deal with the mirror with no Surgical Extraction and/or Nihil Spellbomb?
Sorry for all the questions but I want to tweak my deck after going 2-2 at my local FNM and I like what you have going on.
No need to be sorry, I am glad someone values my opinion
I am not yet sure how my list will look after I get Lilianas so I cant give you an idea of how it will look. For now maybe take out 1 Oblivion Ring and 1 Timely from main (squeze them in SB probably) for 2 lilianas, but Im not sure it needs testing before I do something like that
The 2 DoJ main seem to be enough for most matchups, the third is mostly for Human or token decks, and the Ratchet Bomb is mostly vs Tempered steel decks
Dead Weight is very very VERY good. I originaly putted it in the SB vs RDW since most of my testing was vs that deck (it is the most popular deck around here). Early game it kills all his threats (Noble, Lavamanser etc) and kills them before they can keep a brimstone voley up, and even at 3 mana you can keep a manaleak open vs the voley. Also midgame it functions well with Sun Titan. Same goes for Human decks, it takes care of Abolisher, Champion before he grows etc.
Sever the Bloodline is my trump card vs mirror, usually targeting Sun Titan (taking out the image aswell with it most of the time) usually comming in place of the DoJ as funny as it may sound. I prefer to do this instead of the the other variants (spellbomb, surgical) since experienced players tend to play around surgical and spellbomb, though I fealt a Surgical Extraction not on Titans, not on Unbrial but on Forbiden Alchemy... Scary stuff, it baisicly takes away the cardadvantage of the deck! The game might not have seemed over, but it was, my oponent won due to pure card advantage. I might try to squeze in 2 surgical in the 75 somehow.
As for the Gideon, he has absolutely no sinergy with the rest of the deck, but he is so darn good that he pulls the weight of taking 2 slots in the deck all by himself. he is good vs everything when played right !
Mana Leak imo is one of the best cards in standard. It makes people play around it, and you can force them to play around it even if you dont hold any. They are also very important in mirror matchup, especially if the oponent doesnt hold any, making you capable of being atleast 1 turn faster than the oponent. Also not to forget that the deck is running instant spells for CA, so keeping mana open vs oponent if you dont run manaleaks doesnt give them the fright to think over what to play when when they see 2-3 open mana. So I feel Mana Leak is a big card in the deck and I am happy running 4 of them.
The biggest problem in my list is Hexproof guys, I have to take care of them by blocking them most of the time, and with only phantasmal, the Geist and Thrun seem like a big problem (I will try to sqeeze in 1 more)
I think this setup is going in the right direction...After going 2-2-1 in our local tourney yesterday I am going to do some tweaking in this direction as well. Sun Titan was conditionally good whereas I think Grave Titan will always be good when it hits the board. I run a Liliana-less version and with only a few Sun Titan recur targets, I agree with it being underwhelming.
I did run 2 Smallpox to pretty good effect and I am going to try going to 3 with it. With so many ways to break the symmetry, I feel it is a good card in this setup. It really puts a damper on RDW as it puts 3 of their early cards in the graveyard with no way for them to really replace them.
I dont know if I like smallpox in this deck, especially not vs RDW. it does set them back, but they have cheep drops, and we loose a land in the process, not to mention to double black in the cost, an almost imposible thing to get in turn 2, maybe even after that (this one of the reasons why even Liliana is not as good in this deck as people think of her to be)
The thing with Liliana lists and people who cant get some copies of her, is that they are really trying to force the Zombification of their creatures (hence adding merolk looters, Smallpox etc)
Solar Flare is not a dedicated Reanimator, its a Control deck that happens to run a couple of reanimation spells, and mostly focuses on card advantage.
Dont get me wrong, Liliana is great in this deck, and when I get to 2-3 copies of my own, I plan to play her. But people need to realize that she is a valuable tool in the deck, not a powerhouse.
This is the deck I went with yesterday on a big local tournament (22 participants)
I finished 5-0, facing 2 RDWs, 1 Goblins, 1 Heartless Architect and 1 U/W blade decks, 2-0ing everyone
I placed Stony Silence in the sideboard vs Pod decks but it won me a game vs heartless architect
RDW decks with maindeck timely reinforcements and more hate in sideboard, was almost a walkover
The game vs the U/W Blade was the weirdest. Both games i was stuck on 3 lands, and my oponent countered my forbiden alchemy etc. but thanks to that, he spended his counters and i kept killing his sword targets and managed to stabilise on 2 life when i droped my 6th land, and made a complete turnaround for the win. Game two was again the same thing, except i was stable on much higher life.
Overall I want to comment that Suntitan is underwealming in all matchups since its only flashy and easier to play around (he shines vs other control decks I guess, but even in that field Consecrated Sphinx is better) while Grave Titan and Wurmcoil Engine give true dominance on the board, and people have to deal with it head on
Tribute to Hunger is a 3 mana INSTANT Cruel Edict that kills hexproof threats in control vs control and has the additional bonus to give lifegain, making it playable vs aggro decks to some degree
its a great card that will see even more play in the future (especially if the 2 hexproof creatures become scary in the format
I recomend atleast running them in the sideboard, if not 1 copy maindeck
The Sun Titan is great in its interaction with Snapcaster, Liliana and the image, also even droping oblivion ring (and deadweight from SB) with forbiden alchemy, and the suntitan gives it value
The decks purpose is card advantage and using all the resources, the suntitan is one of them, so my opinion is that the Suntitan is probably the most important creature in the deck and deserves a place as a 2-3 pieces in this deck
I have been testing with this version I putted together. It works great, but if a deck has Ratchetbomb MD (like my U/W) things get a bit ugly on the flipside of things (it is a pun... I know, its bad, Im sorry)
Gustaf Shepard and Reckless Waif are the MVPs vs control decks (tested vs Solar Flare and U/W Control) and with the amount of burns in the deck, they are sweet vs aggro decks aswell (tested vs Humans and RDW)
Personally not a big fan of the innistrad rare land. I mean, if you have sun titan to recur snapcaster, image and blade splicer. Why the hell would you include it? The only potential targets are 7 creatures. - 2 moorland, -1 ghost quarter -1 plains +4 inkmoth nexus (lol).
Also,a singleton blade splicer is pathetic, even more so without venser so i'd go -1 blade splicer - 1 snapcaster +2 image
first of all please read the list before posting, since there are vensers in the decklist...
As for the moorland, they are there as a backup way to use the creatures in your graveyard, and belive it sometimes you WILL wish to have it and remove something you can return with titan, especially if you need a bloker to survive etc etc. moorland is just a backup that doesnt hurt to have in the decklist
Adding 2, maybe 3 Inkmoth Nexus is a possible option, but im not too sure since they are a substracting on the colored mana, and dont do alot in a deck like this that doesnt carry swords.
The thing I am most unsure of my creature package. I think Ill add a Godo, Bandit Warlord as soon as I get my hands on one, and add a Sword of Feast and Famine as well to have something to fetch when I already have Batterskull
Also Ill put a Liliana Vess in there for sure, maybe even a Sorin Markov
What cards in the deck do you guys dislike ?
I am a control player at heart, so I went for a "draw hard, control harder" kind of a deck
Right now my build is looking like this, and I would love some tips and suggestions what to change
Lands:
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstrained Mire
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Epiphany
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Shivan Reef
1 Underground River
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Marsh
1 Vivid Crag
1 Command Tower
1 Crumbling Necropolis
1 Molten Slag
1 Dreadship Reef
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Temple of the False God
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Anathemancer
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Clever Impersonator
1 Notion Thief
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Mulldrifter
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Draining Whelk
Planeswalkers:
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Alternate Winning Condition:
1 Empty the Pits
Enchantments:
1 Grave Betrayal
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Propaganda
Artifact Goodies:
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Dimir Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Mirari
1 Batterskull
Counterspells:
1 Swan Song
1 Counterspell
1 Deprive
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Hinder
1 Counterflux
1 Dismiss
1 Rewind
1 Spellburst
1 Dismember
1 Dreadbore
1 Turn/Burn
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Far/Away
1 Electrolyze
1 Crosis's Charm
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Sever the Bloodline
Sweepers:
1 Pyroclasm
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Damnation
1 Decree of Pain
1 Blasphemous Act
Card Draw & Tutors:
1 Brainstorm
1 Impulse
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Opportunity
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Firemind's Foresight
1 Increasing Ambition
1 Diabolic Revelation
Disruption :
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Rakdos's Return
this cards is crying for an esper control deck to go with, maybe even playing bloodline keeper since they have a good sinergy and are both great cards on their own. Also maybe a Solar Flare build
we shall see, but he will be a player in the metagame for sure, he is too powerful not to be
1 Grave Titan
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sun Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Gideon Jura
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Day of Judgment
1 Dismember
2 Dissipate
2 Doom Blade
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Mana Leak
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Think Twice
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Unburial Rites
3 Drowned Catacomb
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Plains
2 Seachrome Coast
3 Swamp
2 Celestial Purge
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Day of Judgment
1 Dissipate
1 Doom Blade
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Flashfreeze
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gideon Jura
1 Phantasmal Image
2 Sever the Bloodline
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Unburial Rites
This is the version I have been running, and have had good results with it
Aggro-heavy Metagame makes the Dissipate a sideboard card at best, since its really bad vs aggro decks (too slow). The two slots for the Dissipate in my deck are now taken by an aditional Oblivion ring and a Timely Reinforcements
Gruesome Encore seems neat, but I tend to dislike cards that depend what the opponent has in the graveyard. The Flare deck is one that uses reanimation only as a bonus, and I'd much rather Sever my oponents board than try to fight his graveyard. Again this is not that Gruesome Encore doesnt do the job, its just that I prefer going in this direction.
Also I have a feeling that people give the Solar Flare GY too much credit, and should focus more on board control, permission and having their own card advantage flow. Maybe I am wrong, I dont know.
--------------------
I would also like to make another note that Liliana is... bad.... vs most aggro decks (especially RDW), so in an aggro heavy enviroment she is not the best 4-of in a decklist
As for Memoricide, I havent tested it yet, but I dont see many decks (outside of maybe Burning Vengance if it becomes a big player) that has 1 single target that they cant win without. Maybe Primeval Titan, but that didnt help control decks even when it was with Valakut. I would much rather put Flashfreeze in SB if these two decks begin to show up here (and the WolfRamp is looking to do so)
In Mirror its always better to use Spellbomb/Surgical/Sever the bloodlines imo, all are very good and a trump card, just working in diferent ways, and the memoricide doesnt have the mana cost or the board effect like the rest of the solutions. In my case betwean the 2 Sever the Bloodlines and 2 Dissipate I think I am handling mirror very well for now.
Again this are my opinions from the testing I have done, if some of you guys have tested something that contradicts my ideas please share them with me
No need to be sorry, I am glad someone values my opinion
I am not yet sure how my list will look after I get Lilianas so I cant give you an idea of how it will look. For now maybe take out 1 Oblivion Ring and 1 Timely from main (squeze them in SB probably) for 2 lilianas, but Im not sure it needs testing before I do something like that
The 2 DoJ main seem to be enough for most matchups, the third is mostly for Human or token decks, and the Ratchet Bomb is mostly vs Tempered steel decks
Dead Weight is very very VERY good. I originaly putted it in the SB vs RDW since most of my testing was vs that deck (it is the most popular deck around here). Early game it kills all his threats (Noble, Lavamanser etc) and kills them before they can keep a brimstone voley up, and even at 3 mana you can keep a manaleak open vs the voley. Also midgame it functions well with Sun Titan. Same goes for Human decks, it takes care of Abolisher, Champion before he grows etc.
Sever the Bloodline is my trump card vs mirror, usually targeting Sun Titan (taking out the image aswell with it most of the time) usually comming in place of the DoJ as funny as it may sound. I prefer to do this instead of the the other variants (spellbomb, surgical) since experienced players tend to play around surgical and spellbomb, though I fealt a Surgical Extraction not on Titans, not on Unbrial but on Forbiden Alchemy... Scary stuff, it baisicly takes away the cardadvantage of the deck! The game might not have seemed over, but it was, my oponent won due to pure card advantage. I might try to squeze in 2 surgical in the 75 somehow.
As for the Gideon, he has absolutely no sinergy with the rest of the deck, but he is so darn good that he pulls the weight of taking 2 slots in the deck all by himself. he is good vs everything when played right !
Mana Leak imo is one of the best cards in standard. It makes people play around it, and you can force them to play around it even if you dont hold any. They are also very important in mirror matchup, especially if the oponent doesnt hold any, making you capable of being atleast 1 turn faster than the oponent. Also not to forget that the deck is running instant spells for CA, so keeping mana open vs oponent if you dont run manaleaks doesnt give them the fright to think over what to play when when they see 2-3 open mana. So I feel Mana Leak is a big card in the deck and I am happy running 4 of them.
The biggest problem in my list is Hexproof guys, I have to take care of them by blocking them most of the time, and with only phantasmal, the Geist and Thrun seem like a big problem (I will try to sqeeze in 1 more)
Hope this helps you
I dont know if I like smallpox in this deck, especially not vs RDW. it does set them back, but they have cheep drops, and we loose a land in the process, not to mention to double black in the cost, an almost imposible thing to get in turn 2, maybe even after that (this one of the reasons why even Liliana is not as good in this deck as people think of her to be)
The thing with Liliana lists and people who cant get some copies of her, is that they are really trying to force the Zombification of their creatures (hence adding merolk looters, Smallpox etc)
Solar Flare is not a dedicated Reanimator, its a Control deck that happens to run a couple of reanimation spells, and mostly focuses on card advantage.
Dont get me wrong, Liliana is great in this deck, and when I get to 2-3 copies of my own, I plan to play her. But people need to realize that she is a valuable tool in the deck, not a powerhouse.
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Grave Titan
2x Sun Titan
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Phantasmal Image
Instants:
4x Forbidden Alchemy
3x Think Twice
3x Doom Blade
4x Mana Leak
Sorceries:
2x Day of Judgment
2x Unburial Rites
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Timely Reinforcements
2x Gideon Jura
Lands:
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Isolated Chapel
2x Seachrome Coast
1x Darkslick Shores
4x Plains
3x Swamp
4x Island
2x Celestial Purge
2x Dead Weight
2x Sever the Bloodline
2x Stony Silence
2x Dissipitate
1x Timely Reinforcments
1x Tribute to Hunger
1x Dissmember
1x Day of Jugment
1x Ratchet Bomb
This is the deck I went with yesterday on a big local tournament (22 participants)
I finished 5-0, facing 2 RDWs, 1 Goblins, 1 Heartless Architect and 1 U/W blade decks, 2-0ing everyone
I placed Stony Silence in the sideboard vs Pod decks but it won me a game vs heartless architect
RDW decks with maindeck timely reinforcements and more hate in sideboard, was almost a walkover
The game vs the U/W Blade was the weirdest. Both games i was stuck on 3 lands, and my oponent countered my forbiden alchemy etc. but thanks to that, he spended his counters and i kept killing his sword targets and managed to stabilise on 2 life when i droped my 6th land, and made a complete turnaround for the win. Game two was again the same thing, except i was stable on much higher life.
Overall I want to comment that Suntitan is underwealming in all matchups since its only flashy and easier to play around (he shines vs other control decks I guess, but even in that field Consecrated Sphinx is better) while Grave Titan and Wurmcoil Engine give true dominance on the board, and people have to deal with it head on
What happens if Gideon Jura is a creature and a Phantasmal Image is casted and copies him?
its a great card that will see even more play in the future (especially if the 2 hexproof creatures become scary in the format
I recomend atleast running them in the sideboard, if not 1 copy maindeck
The decks purpose is card advantage and using all the resources, the suntitan is one of them, so my opinion is that the Suntitan is probably the most important creature in the deck and deserves a place as a 2-3 pieces in this deck
Gustaf Shepard and Reckless Waif are the MVPs vs control decks (tested vs Solar Flare and U/W Control) and with the amount of burns in the deck, they are sweet vs aggro decks aswell (tested vs Humans and RDW)
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Gustaf Shepard
3 Kruin Outlaw
2 Instigator Gang
2 Garruk Relentless
4 Shock
4 Incinerate
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Full Moon's Rise
2 Moonmist
2 Brimstone Volley
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Kessig Wolf Run
5 Mountain
5 Forest
1 Ghost Quarters
2 Dismember
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Brimstone Volley
2 Moonmist
3 Arc Trail
2 Beast Within
first of all please read the list before posting, since there are vensers in the decklist...
As for the moorland, they are there as a backup way to use the creatures in your graveyard, and belive it sometimes you WILL wish to have it and remove something you can return with titan, especially if you need a bloker to survive etc etc. moorland is just a backup that doesnt hurt to have in the decklist
Adding 2, maybe 3 Inkmoth Nexus is a possible option, but im not too sure since they are a substracting on the colored mana, and dont do alot in a deck like this that doesnt carry swords.
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Blade Splicer
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Frost Titan
2 Sun Titan
3 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elspeth Tira
2 Venser, the Sojourner
2 Gideon Jura
Spells:
4 Think Twice
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
2 Dismember
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Day of Judgment
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
6 Island
6 Plains
2 Moorland Haunt
3 Ghost Quarter
What do you think ?