It doesn't seem easy to get to Hoof mana without Archdruid and/or Heritage.
Anyway, hey guys. I'm a long time Legacy Elves player, been playing it since it was a really terrible combo deck back in 2009. The last time I played it in modern was pre-Glimpse ban. I've been trying to find a good and fun modern deck and failing really hard until now. I think Collected Company finally gives Elves the legs it needs to grind out the late game and combo out faster, so here I am.
I've tested JVL's list and I've found that I would rather have 4 Archdruids and 1 Arbor Elf over the 2 Ranger of Eos, 2 Boreal Druid, and 1 Eternal Witness. Witness was really clunky sometimes, so I cut one down, and Ranger is redundant considering the deck already runs the 4 Collected Company and 3 Eternal Witness. Archdruid gives the deck a much needed plan B for a very low trade off. I also changed the mana base a bit: -3 Razorverge Thicket, -1 Horizon Canopy, -1 Pendelhaven, +2 Nykthos, +1 Forest, +1 Stomping Ground, and +1 Temple Garden. I wanted 1 more Stomping to improve the chance of getting the Turn 2 Blood Moon down game 2. I've been liking it so far, and it seems to be exactly the kind of deck I enjoy playing.
So is anyone still playing this? I haven't played it in a LONG time but it looks like Young Pyromancer gives it a much better SB Plan right now than Isochron Scepters ever did. The deck can probably be played in straight UR with Noxious Revival over Regrowth, which incidentally also helps "counter" Deathrite Shaman activations.
I haven't played the deck in real matches yet, but I've noticed the Belcher SB has been scrapped recently. Why? Does the protection plan work well? How do you guys board with that plan? Can we still go off quickly with those cards diluting our opening hands?
Used to play something like this in RUGW colors, running 3 Stoneforge and 4 Lotus Cobra. Before I played Cobra, it always felt like there wasn't enough mana to take advantage of the extra cards. The combo matchup is definitely weak, and that's what I was running white for. Rest in Peace, Meddling Mage, Detention Sphere/Oring were all great sideboard cards.
I think Cabal Therapy could be in here, though. Cascading into a Therapy with a Pyromancer in play would be pretty insane.
cool. thx for feedback. AK was always the "I just can't think of what else to play" slot. It seemed best against fair decks that end up being grindy. It seemed poorest against combo. I haven't done a lot of testing with Jace, but even if that isn't 100% optimal, it's hard to see how it's a huge mistake. Alt-win-cons are always good. But like I said, recently I just switched out -4 AK and +4 Izzet Charm. (Also, if you do like Jace, I'd really recommend 2 Lorescale Coatl's in the sideboard ..... it's a permanent +3/+3 for him everytime you use Jace's zero ability)
I've considered Intuition before. Because some games even if you ponder 3 times and brainstorm/fetch twice and cantrip Ice and Manamorphose, you still just don't find a PA and you lose. If you realize that any time you don't keep a hand with a PA already in it, your number one priority is to find one, I don't think it happens that often. But it does happen. When testing with Intuiton though, really 1 has always seemed like the right number.
Exactly. Sometimes you just don't find them no matter how hard you dig! If there are better, cheaper ways to find PA in RUG colors, I'd play that, but I guess we're stuck with Intuition for now.
The problem with the sideboard is it has a very hard time game 3 against esperblade. They get their 4 Swords back, 1-2 Supreme Verdict, some Extractions, and hold the counters for noncreatures. It's just really, really hard. I'm considering Thrun for the matchup, but he still can't beat Batterskull. Talrand is definitely a card here, as well.
Any body tried my build w/ Regrowth and Temporal Springs? I wanna hear about it if you do! Still my favorite deck!
I did. Well my friend did, using my cards. We didn't run 4 AK. Ran 3 Jace and 1 Temporal Spring instead. I figured Jace was unconditional card advantage and helped the control game much better than AK. He did well with it, actually, ending with 2-1-1 with an ID, but I don't know the details of his games because I was playing in the same tournament. I couldn't beat it with Junk in playtesting though. It was too easy for the deck to stop me from doing things and then combo out, even with 4 Deathrite, 3 GSZ and 2 Scavenging Ooze maindeck!
If anything it looks like it needs a way to tutor for the Pyros, and a way to beat Esperblade decks. I'm thinking 2 Intuition in the main -1 Jace and -1 Temporal Spring for the tutoring, but I'm stumped when it comes to Esperblade. It seems they have everything we don't like: discard, counters, removal and lingering souls for the transformation SB game 3, and even grave hate from the board (Surgical-Snapcaster-Surgical is GG).
I used to play preordain and droped it in favor of tought scour for a number of reason.
1) Milling an ascension is awesome. Because you run 4 regrowths and you can get it from your graveyard now.
2) The mill ability helps in game 1 to figure out what your opponent plays. It had various uses (against personal tutor in show and tell, enlightened tutor in some versions of miracle control)
3) Targetting yourself is highly synergystic with jace and brainstorm when you need to dig.
It's never a win con, and it's a weak link in the deck, but I believe it to be superior to preordain. Anyhow, I am a firm believer that there is no "one correct" version of a deck, especially a rogue deck, and it's fine to replace tought scour with whatever works for you.
I'm not sure I agree with #1, since it makes Ascension cost 4 mana instead of 2. I definitely agree with #2 though. #3, it seems like you can do the exact same thing for digging with Preordain when the top cards are bad, but the benefit of helping to activate Pyro is definitely not insignificant. I'll try to test both, see what works for me. Thanks a lot for your input!
I agree about the nonblue mana sources. I've been testing a Taiga and it's bad. I own just 1 Volcanic Island, though, so I might have to run it anyway.
Have you tested Preordain in the Thought Scour slot? I don't think Scour does enough, and it's always the last thing I want to cast. It also feels terrible to mill a Pyro when you need one.
re: Lingering Souls
Maybe some amount of Electrickery could be good? I'd play Punishing Fire if I had Grove, but they're a little on the expensive side right now and I'm not spending for those.
Xwt: Your list lacks a few lands (there were only 12 in the list). How many did you run? 17 sounds ok but I can't say I've been able to play JTMS early with that in goldfishing.
I attended a 7 round 1k tournament with a pyromancer's ascension deck on saturday in my hometown of Québec City. I piloted the deck to a 4-1 record. While I do not think it's a "serious deck" I was impressed by it's potential and I'm pretty sure top 8 was wide open to me if I didn't have to quit for work around 4pm. Work was the reason why I didn't register a real deck in the first place, as I didn't care much for winning or losing.
Yeah it definitely looks a lot more midrange than the usual combo elves build. And I would take out Emrakul for Mirror Entity, and 1 Regal Force for Edric. Both Regal Force and Emrakul can be hard to play without priests and just one Archdruid. I don't get the Spike Feeder though!
Anyway, hey guys. I'm a long time Legacy Elves player, been playing it since it was a really terrible combo deck back in 2009. The last time I played it in modern was pre-Glimpse ban. I've been trying to find a good and fun modern deck and failing really hard until now. I think Collected Company finally gives Elves the legs it needs to grind out the late game and combo out faster, so here I am.
I've tested JVL's list and I've found that I would rather have 4 Archdruids and 1 Arbor Elf over the 2 Ranger of Eos, 2 Boreal Druid, and 1 Eternal Witness. Witness was really clunky sometimes, so I cut one down, and Ranger is redundant considering the deck already runs the 4 Collected Company and 3 Eternal Witness. Archdruid gives the deck a much needed plan B for a very low trade off. I also changed the mana base a bit: -3 Razorverge Thicket, -1 Horizon Canopy, -1 Pendelhaven, +2 Nykthos, +1 Forest, +1 Stomping Ground, and +1 Temple Garden. I wanted 1 more Stomping to improve the chance of getting the Turn 2 Blood Moon down game 2. I've been liking it so far, and it seems to be exactly the kind of deck I enjoy playing.
I think Cabal Therapy could be in here, though. Cascading into a Therapy with a Pyromancer in play would be pretty insane.
Exactly. Sometimes you just don't find them no matter how hard you dig! If there are better, cheaper ways to find PA in RUG colors, I'd play that, but I guess we're stuck with Intuition for now.
The problem with the sideboard is it has a very hard time game 3 against esperblade. They get their 4 Swords back, 1-2 Supreme Verdict, some Extractions, and hold the counters for noncreatures. It's just really, really hard. I'm considering Thrun for the matchup, but he still can't beat Batterskull. Talrand is definitely a card here, as well.
I did. Well my friend did, using my cards. We didn't run 4 AK. Ran 3 Jace and 1 Temporal Spring instead. I figured Jace was unconditional card advantage and helped the control game much better than AK. He did well with it, actually, ending with 2-1-1 with an ID, but I don't know the details of his games because I was playing in the same tournament. I couldn't beat it with Junk in playtesting though. It was too easy for the deck to stop me from doing things and then combo out, even with 4 Deathrite, 3 GSZ and 2 Scavenging Ooze maindeck!
If anything it looks like it needs a way to tutor for the Pyros, and a way to beat Esperblade decks. I'm thinking 2 Intuition in the main -1 Jace and -1 Temporal Spring for the tutoring, but I'm stumped when it comes to Esperblade. It seems they have everything we don't like: discard, counters, removal and lingering souls for the transformation SB game 3, and even grave hate from the board (Surgical-Snapcaster-Surgical is GG).
I'm not sure I agree with #1, since it makes Ascension cost 4 mana instead of 2. I definitely agree with #2 though. #3, it seems like you can do the exact same thing for digging with Preordain when the top cards are bad, but the benefit of helping to activate Pyro is definitely not insignificant. I'll try to test both, see what works for me. Thanks a lot for your input!
Have you tested Preordain in the Thought Scour slot? I don't think Scour does enough, and it's always the last thing I want to cast. It also feels terrible to mill a Pyro when you need one.
I've been goldfishing and it can be REALLY hard to find Pyro. Maybe some number of Muddle the Mixture are in order?
Maybe some amount of Electrickery could be good? I'd play Punishing Fire if I had Grove, but they're a little on the expensive side right now and I'm not spending for those.
Xwt: Your list lacks a few lands (there were only 12 in the list). How many did you run? 17 sounds ok but I can't say I've been able to play JTMS early with that in goldfishing.
Very interesting build. I've never played the deck, but it looks like having 7 one-card combos can make this deck that much more powerful.
About the SB, have you ever felt that 4 Delver was not enough? I think Quirion Dryad could work very well with all the cantrips and such.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8803&iddeck=64277
It's a powered Academy deck that uses Expedition Map to find the Academy.