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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Are you asking me or Newcomb
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Newcomb »
    I've tried to engage with you a bit, Iso. I just feel like fundamentally you're missing a step in your reasoning - or at least not sharing it - where you're telling the thread a story and I'm going "ok yes I see it could have happened that way," but I'm not seeing the part where you talk about the many other potential narratives there are and why yours makes more sense in a kind of "weighing the possibilities" way.

    I can pull up some quotes and try to be more specific about this tomorrow.


    I would appreciate this!

    Quote from Newcomb »
    Like off the top of my head, your reasoning tying Eco to GJ and Cyan has to do with how the latter two reacted / tried to change the threadflow, and it's like. Well yeah that's definitely what happened if that's exactly the team, but like...


    So...why can't that be the team? Weird
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Right, I'm dealing with "ur rong"s. And this way, I didn't even have to put in the hours-long post to make it happen!

    Like, nobody is actually asking me questions. It's just "townIso does this" and "townIso doesn't do this", "no ur rong"; there's no "why don't you think this one particular aspect of your read could be wrong? The way I see it is (X) based on my experience in this game where so and so did this as town, can you maybe explain why you don't think (Eco/GJ/Cyan)'s actions here line up with a town mindset?"

    I've been asking people questions. Nobody's been asking me about my reads - there's no interactivity, nothing dynamic. It's all, "You need to case them this way and then we'll listen to you, but otherwise, we're not going to engage you in a discussion about it." Obviously this is slight hyperbole - there have been a few people asking me things, and at least trying to figure me out. But it's not anywhere near the level of interactivity I'd expect from people who have any interest in actually understanding my reads, where they're coming from, or much else beyond "hurr durr Iso isn't town because he hasn't megaposted to beat it all into our skulls that he's solved the game and we're wrong and isn't being hyperaggressive."

    Like...people complain about my playstyle, and then when I do something different, people complain that I'm not doing what I normally do. >_> What do you people want from me? Make up your minds.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    I don't actually enjoy megaposting - it's just something I'm really good at when I set myself to it.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Vaimes »
    Actually I misread that a little bit, Iso said "unfun for /me/ to play."

    Which uh. Did you not enjoy the way you played ZDS' game? I didn't get that impression at all.


    It was fun until I ground out my megapost. Then it just...wasn't, because it was a bunch of "no ur rong" "nuh uh u r" and there was no need to put out any more effort (and frankly, no desire). After that, it was simply me manipulating the flow of the game in my favor and that's just boring.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from tomsloger »
    i know where i think the game is headed and i notice people who change that direction.
    normally you are a changer of direction.
    since when does iso care about lynches being palatable?
    it only matters that theyre right

    also
    why is gj less palatable?


    Okay, so me voting GJ would have done absolutely nothing except detract from the Cyan wagon at that juncture due to gameflow.

    Yes, normally I'm a changer of direction.

    I care about the lynch being palatable because why would I waste my vote on somebody who's not going to get lynched toDay as long as I'm voting scum, especially if they're the lynch for the Day? Of course I'm right. I'm The Goddamn Iso. ISO McBatman Any of my 3 scumspects are wonderful lynches toDay. Whether or not everyone else sees it that way is outside of the realm of my control short of taking up the arms and leading the charge...which I have no particular interest in doing. My cases are solid, and the posts since I've made said cases should add sufficient weight to them for lynchage.

    Quote from Newcomb »
    @Iso; is your claiming VT supposed to mean something? You're talking about it like it's a meaningful claim.


    I am not actually allowed to acknowledge this, but feel free to ask literally anybody else in this game about it.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    @tom: How much do you know about reading the flow of a game?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from tomsloger »
    Quote from Iso »
    Quote from tomsloger »
    Quote from Iso »
    Tom, what ordering do I care about, exactly?
    wanna lynch GJ first?


    Doesn't matter what order we lynch the scum in, here, because I'm not using their corpses to turn ??? reads into scum reads and there's no particular scum player in this game that outshines the other two. If there's enough support for a GJ lynch toDay, I will be on the wagon, as with Cyan and Eco lynches.
    so, a gj wagon sprung up while you sat on cyan.
    Why weren't you a driving force?


    Because I don't think there's enough support to push a GJ wagon through toDay. Cyan seems like a much more palatable lynch to a lot of people.

    Quote from Seppel »
    Quote from Iso »
    Sure, but Seppel is calling me scum for it.
    If you're on my team then you'd help me out instead of making me waste my vote on you.

    Unvote, vote Iso


    I'm voting for scum. What are you doing to advance our win condition?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from tomsloger »
    Quote from Iso »
    Tom, what ordering do I care about, exactly?
    wanna lynch GJ first?


    Doesn't matter what order we lynch the scum in, here, because I'm not using their corpses to turn ??? reads into scum reads and there's no particular scum player in this game that outshines the other two. If there's enough support for a GJ lynch toDay, I will be on the wagon, as with Cyan and Eco lynches.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Tom, what ordering do I care about, exactly?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Nacho. Marry me.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    I would honestly be insulted in your shoes, Eco - because that means people really think you can be this ignorant as town.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Like, there is no "hurr durr but Iso wasn't playing to his town meta!!!" excuse, here. Eco is very plainly being willfully ignorant of things and cherry-picking his arguments.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Remember when I said the part about how I wasn't going to make this game un-fun for me to play?

    It's almost as if you're ignoring that to push a scum agenda. (Shocker!)

    Anyone who thinks Eco is town after his last handful of posts really should probably actually read them in context.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Sure, but Seppel is calling me scum for it. I'm not calling Cyan scum for his thoughts on you - I'm calling him scum for different reasons. The two aren't comparable, thanks for playing, get lynched, etc.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    ITT Seppel continues to not read my posts.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Reading is hard.

    AWESOME
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    What are your thoughts on GJ?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from tomsloger »
    Noticing things doesn't make you town, iso.


    You're right. My role PM does.

    -

    @Cyan: I assume you're reading Newcomb as town under Chris and Az? Or are you skeptical of the Masons?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Azrael »
    Quote from Newcomb »
    Az am I crazy or does your last reads list have GJ as hard town?

    Because you're going to need to walk me through that one.


    Hey, someone noticed!


    #779

    Smile
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    very helpful, thx
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    *at work)
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Ecophagy »
    Quote from Iso »

    >being uncooperative
    >offering discourse on reads

    Seems legit.


    >Being uncooperative
    >Point blank refusing to proactively push reads or defend self

    Or do you mean discourse like what you're been doing so far? Scintillating dialogue like "these are my scum reads I will not change them" and "**** you I'm Iso".


    "**** you I'm Iso" is always a valid reason for voting somebody.

    (Oh my god, I'm crying from laughter at work."

    But seriously, in what world is "HAY GUISE LET'S TALK ABOUT MY READS" where I am openly discussing them with the people that are asking me about them (mostly Az and Newcomb, here) is that being uncooperative? You're piggybacking off of my interpretation of Az's "NO ISO YOU MUST SINK HOURS ON END INTO WALLS OF TEXT TO SOLVE THE GAME OR YOU'RE NOT TOWN" which is an extremely dishonest line to take.

    Quote from Ecophagy »
    Quote from tomsloger »
    I see what eco is saying re: iso's theatricality in this game.
    It sometimes takes on a vibe like he cares more about our perception of him than about being listened to.

    And the brunt of towniso in my experience is that he wants his reads respected, **** what you think of him


    Exactly. In what world does Town!Iso think he's caught the entire scum team early D1 of a freaking invitational, and then is point blank not willing to repeatedly beat the town over the head until they follow his reads and bask in his glory?


    This one, where I'm going to be proven right in the end once people realize, "Oh wait, Iso actually knows what he's talking about!"

    -

    @tom: What did you learn from asking me who scumIso's buddies would be?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Ecophagy »
    ****

    Quote from Iso »
    Please advise how I am not cooperating with 40 Encyclopedia Brittanica articles supporting your thesis thx


    Quote from Iso »


    You're giving me the ultimatum of "conjure a long-winded post that will take several hours to complete or I will vote town until the end of the Day." No. I'm not playing this game that way. Explain why my reads are unconvincing to you and we'll dance but I'm not going to make this game a miserable slog for myself by putting forth the effort to hand-hold everyone else to the correct conclusion by being the singularity of effort, here. That is the easiest way to get me to check out of a game and I am not interested, because it will literally go the way of Stargate (except maybe minus the scum gambit to get me mislynched) and ZDS's Normal. I'll have solved the game and I won't want to engage with ANYONE at length after that because my effort meter will be fully expended after that. I refuse to inconvenience myself based upon your preconceived notions of how townIso should play based on how townIso HAS played, simply because those are the methods I've used before to the best results. And as Newcomb said before, that's just a blowout and no fun for anybody else.

    So, I'm not breaking this entire game down just to explain my worldview. If you want me to try to convince you, you need to attack the ideas I've expressed based on the evidence in this thread - not dismiss them on meta reads that have quite frankly never been effective in reading experienced players such as myself or Eco.

    Please feel free to engage me in discourse on my stated arguments. Smile Thanks!



    Dancing Banana


    >being uncooperative
    >offering discourse on reads

    Seems legit.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Please advise how I am not cooperating with 40 Encyclopedia Brittanica articles supporting your thesis thx
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Disinheritance Mafia - Night One
    Oh we lynched Bur? Cool, Day 1 scum lynch. Jam
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Wait. Az, when did you change your mind on me?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Disinheritance Mafia - Night One
    So I'm in favor of me just reading the second half of the game and not grinding out analysis on everything, but rather, giving end impressions afterwards. If anyone objects, speak now so I can crush your hopes and dreams.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Janken Mafia - Day 2 - Janken? I hardly knew 'en!
    Fuquetlauncher has been prodded.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    For clarity, the reasons I outed Chris and Az were twofold:

    1. Chris and Az were both on the verge of voting me if I didn't have a damn good reason for townreading them, which was going to be a huge distraction from actually finding scum, and not a time-waster we needed to enter the thread.
    2. I wanted to demonstrate just how in-tune with the lifeblood of the game that I am despite my lackadaisical approach in the early stages of the game to lend more credence to my scum reads without necessarily having to argue a wall to back up the facts that yes, I am paying attention, and no, I'm not just "lolwagoningwithoutreason".

    Quote from Vaimes »
    Wait, I just thought of something.

    Iso, at the beginning of the game you suggested that the lack of Eco counterwagons made the Cyanslot more likely scum, because Cyan hadn't posted.

    Would you say the same could be possible for mal? He posted, but like. Barely. Certainly not enough to push elsewhere.

    Sorry if you already mentioned this somewhere, I legit just had this revelation.


    I have mentioned this somewhere! In fact, I mentioned that if I'm wrong about GJ, that the last scum has to be the mal slot simply out of PoE. However, two things: I think that malslot can only be scum with Cyan, because of the opening post, and I think that the mal slot is likely to be town because of the early exchange with Voxxicus.

    Quote from Azrael »
    Alright. Post first batch of ISOs and partial thread reread, here's where I'm at.

    Hard Town
    8. Azrael
    9. Newcomb
    12. Seppel
    6. Sir Chris
    4. Vaimes
    2. Gentleman Johnny

    Lean Towards Not Lynching Today
    5. Voxxicus
    10. Cyan
    1. Iso

    We Can Lynch These Guys
    3. tomsloger
    7. Ecophagy
    11. Nachomamma8 r. mallorean_thug

    I can legit understand people buying Tom's explanation for spider-posting, I think even Tom believes it and convinced himself. But I still think he's scum based on POE and being unimpressed with his work and participation.


    What changed your mind on GJ?

    Also, what can I do to convince you to vote Cyan toDay?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from tomsloger »
    hey iso

    if youre scum who would be your buddies based on your play this game?


    Hell, I dunno. Probably Vaimes and Nacho? But that's just off the top of my head.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Azrael »
    Iso, to answer your question I seriously doubt Eco got mad at his scum-buddy and publicly berated him for not defending him harder.


    So why aren't you looking at making a counterwagon or analysing this one? Is it because you're happy to just hang back and watch me get lynched? Why are you even voting Seppel anyways?


    I can actually see a town Eco in some of these posts, such as this one.


    I see it coming from scumEco as a sort of frustration with his scumbuddy for not backing him up or pushing elsewhere, and then a tacked-on bit of distancing at the end.

    Quote from tomsloger »
    Quote from Nachomamma8 »
    Tom, who are you looking to lynch right now?
    id like to lynch in voxx/iso/cyan ATM
    but i feel more strongly about my townreads of newcomb, chris, and your slot
    and would probably just sheep any 2 of you if you seemed excited about a lynch

    i sort of hate that townreading chris means i have to townread azrael too, but I GUESS


    tom.

    Be my hero and vote Cyan.

    You, too, Nacho.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Janken Mafia - Day 2 - Janken? I hardly knew 'en!
    Votecount:

    Vaimes (1): zomgarcwind
    shadowlancerx (1): Tordeck
    Seppel (1): shadowlancerx


    With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Also, Vaimes, you know the way to my heart is by sheeping my scum reads, you rascal, you.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Love Is Az finally coming around to a Cyan lynch? What a day.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Disinheritance Mafia - Night One
    Based on the 500 posts I've read so far I'm down for a Bur lynch.

    Vote Bur
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    No...my basis for the Cyan read was largely upon the way the Eco wagon moved. And if you think Eco is scum, I don't see how you justify a townCyan, there.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    I'm also referring to my Eco and Cyan reads, Az.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    I am not allowed to post pornographic material.

    I'll let you use your imagination with how I am viewing that last Iso post Wink


    DIScourse, not INTERcourse! Mad

    Quote from Azrael »
    Also, my read on you is about 15% meta, and my read on Eco is 0% meta. Just to set the record straight.


    Sure fooled me!
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Mafia Hosting Sign-Ups & Hosting Rules
    Then I'll just play in it. Smile
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on The Mafia Council & Helpdesk Thread
    Sad Cool
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Azrael »
    Quote from Iso »

    Based on this and your responses to Nacho and Chris, I...don't think you're actually reading the game any more. Slant


    I never stop reading and reconsidering. But at present, nobody is engaging me with reads that seem more attractive or well-thought out than what I'm working with already. Soon as that happens, I'll happily change my tune. As always.


    You're giving me the ultimatum of "conjure a long-winded post that will take several hours to complete or I will vote town until the end of the Day." No. I'm not playing this game that way. Explain why my reads are unconvincing to you and we'll dance but I'm not going to make this game a miserable slog for myself by putting forth the effort to hand-hold everyone else to the correct conclusion by being the singularity of effort, here. That is the easiest way to get me to check out of a game and I am not interested, because it will literally go the way of Stargate (except maybe minus the scum gambit to get me mislynched) and ZDS's Normal. I'll have solved the game and I won't want to engage with ANYONE at length after that because my effort meter will be fully expended after that. I refuse to inconvenience myself based upon your preconceived notions of how townIso should play based on how townIso HAS played, simply because those are the methods I've used before to the best results. And as Newcomb said before, that's just a blowout and no fun for anybody else.

    So, I'm not breaking this entire game down just to explain my worldview. If you want me to try to convince you, you need to attack the ideas I've expressed based on the evidence in this thread - not dismiss them on meta reads that have quite frankly never been effective in reading experienced players such as myself or Eco.

    Please feel free to engage me in discourse on my stated arguments. Smile Thanks!

    Quote from Seppel »
    Iso, is Vaimes on your scum list? If so vote him.


    no he is not but you would know that if you were reading the game, yourself
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Ecophagy »
    Quote from Iso »

    I literally just gave you a reason - HIS HOP ON THE ISO WAGON.


    My secret ulterior motive for being on your wagon is that I'd like to see you lynched. Who'd have thunk?


    Golly gee, is that why you voted me? Monocle I am utterly floored by this revelation! I had assumed it was because you wanted me to survive.

    This is a cute deflection from your motive to see me lynched, though.

    Everyone in this game knows that a vote on VT Iso is a vote on town. Pretending otherwise is a bad look for you.

    Quote from Azrael »
    @Eco - I'd be less concerned by your mimicking my scum reads if you had not done similar moves with other players, or if could present a more thought-provoking and original basis for them.

    Quote from Sir Chris »
    I would like to note Az just because I am not as active as I used to be it doesn't make me senile. I actually haven't been a huge fan of your play so far, I don't think a lot of your scum reads have been very good and they seem to have an underlying emotional need to them rather than cold logic.

    I think Tom is just a bit touched in the head.


    *eyebrow* I'm a pretty cold fish, Chris. If you're reading my attacks on players as emotionally driven, you're misreading me, as well.

    As ever, until someone convinces me my town-reads are wrong, I'm going to ruthlessly cull the herd in my uncleared slots. There are only about four of those, at the moment, though I'm considering some additions. They do not fit neatly into other people's expectations, and I am fine with that. I will simply continue to work as I always work. Check and re-check my reads. Identify probable scum mentalities and lines of play among the uncleared. Kill the worst of the bunch.

    Nobody's scum reads are going to catch fire this game very easily, because the quality of player in this game is high. You are going to see scum narratives and plays like what Tom is doing, where the evidence of their guilt is as much, or more, in what they are failing to accomplish, than in what they are actually posting. It's going to create difficulty in arriving at a consensus, and we're not going to feel as confident about the cases we do decide are our best choices. That's just the breaks in a game like this. So be it.

    Vote Iso.


    Based on this and your responses to Nacho and Chris, I...don't think you're actually reading the game any more. Slant
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    *scum chat.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Sir Chris »
    I have not been presented with one credible thing against Eco by anyone thinking he is scum.


    I literally just gave you a reason - HIS HOP ON THE ISO WAGON.

    But I guess we can ignore reality, if you want. By the way, I'm an Unkillable Unlynchable Miller Vigilante.

    Quote from Sir Chris »
    Scum Iso didn't say we were masons to be clever, scum Iso does it there to relieve pressure from himself.

    Not it matters we should be killing GJ who is scum due to my outlined reasons.


    No, scumIso makes it a point not to come under scrutiny for bad meta reasons and just tells his buddies about the Masons in scum chatz Teach
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Ecophagy »
    oooh a vanilla town claim, how convincing.


    Well, you know me. Cool
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    You'd lose that game.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Seppel votes me for garbage reasoning and WHAT A SHOCKER, Eco jumps on to the Iso wagon at the perfect moment to foster its momentum.

    I'm soooooo surprised by this development.

    rollout

    Let's not waste any more time on this crap.

    Renounce Darkness, VT.

    Now can we lynch the scum, please.

    I'm running out of patience for asking nicely.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Mafia Hosting Sign-Ups & Hosting Rules
    How different from your last game would you say this is going to be?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Disinheritance Mafia - Night One
    More catch-up tomorrow!
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Janken Mafia - Day 2 - Janken? I hardly knew 'en!
    Votecount tonight.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    @Nacho: I'm pretty much not budging on my scumteam of Eco/GJ/Cyan until I'm wrong on one of them, so, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    C'mon, guys. We're all friends here, even though we murder each other for fun. Tensions can rise. Let's just remember that it's a game and that we're here to have fun, please.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    @Az: I think tom's utilizing his posting restriction in a clear way that indicates he's trying to solve the game, even if he's missed a couple of seemingly obvious things. Also, you must have missed the part where I said that if GJ wasn't scum, PoE basically points to the mal slot in that case?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    you're not going to get me lynched toDay, Az

    you're just going to waste everyone's time, and then we'll have to scramble to collect enough votes for a scum lynch.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    NACHO Love is in the air
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    (We'll miss you)
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Pack your bags, son.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Disinheritance Mafia - Night One
    imagine that.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    >Eco points out I haven't been in hyperoverdrive

    >addressed like 20 pages ago

    Try a new argument, bro.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Disinheritance Mafia - Night One
    Town points to GJ! I intentionally left out any connections between players I had noticed as part of the possible team elimination process.

    Seriously, guys - how do any of you think he's scum?

    I'll be including something on team possibilities when I wrap up.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    I'll be happy to lynch GJ toDay.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    All you have to do is believe.

    If I told you guys I did all that, you wouldn't follow me (even though it obviously works). So I obviously made up some hogwash about electrons.

    Belieeeve.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Vaimes, be a dear and join the Cyan wagon if you're not already there, would you?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Also why is the mal slot so close to you
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Also I guess it bears asking: Why are Az and Chris not clumped together on your web?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Voxxicus »
    @Iso

    Yeah, that's kind of my problem though. It feels like GJ and Cyan are both scum to you because of the way they reacted to Eco and his wagon - but then if Eco is town...they're still both scum?

    Like, say we lynch Eco and he flips town, who do you want to lynch most, and why?


    Thing is, I don't think scumCyan approaches the townEco wagon situation the way we saw. If you believe Cyan is scum, you can't believe Eco is town - the two ideas are hardlined together. GJ, I could be more flexible on, simply because he's not tied to the other two as hard as Eco and Cyan are to each other. If GJ is town, then I'd have to think about who Eco/Cyan's buddy could be, but it's probably mal's slot at that point. Slightly lesser possibilities are one of you and Vaimes, but only because you haven't been towning as hard as everybody else.

    Quote from Newcomb »
    @Iso

    I feel like at one point I read a long post of yours - maybe it was in a QT actually? - where you explained what you meant by "electron cloud." Mind digging that up for me? It might help me crawl into your head.


    SURE

    I'll just post a synopsis of Electron Cloud Theory, my approach to Mafia.

    Basically, a Mafia game is a snapshot of an atom at one point in time. At the core, you have the protons and neutrons that determine the make-up of the game - the roles, the number of players, any additional rules or mechanics, etc. The players, themselves, as well as their alignments, are determined by their position in the electron cloud. Electrons can jump between energy levels in a fraction of a second. Some electrons create ionic bonds with other atoms, and some electrons are just floating about in an unknown location. Because electrons are so volatile, always jumping from one energy level to another, we can't know where they're located in the atom short of freezing a moment in time - that moment being the Mafia game.

    When you figure out where one electron is, that eliminates the possibility of it being somewhere else, and it distinctly points to other electrons being in other locations. So, solving a Mafia game to me is like drawing out an electron cloud in a single moment in time on a sheet of paper. I catch on to Az and Chris as Masons, and that eliminates the world where Chris is scum with Voxxicus, or Az is Masons with Seppel. As the roles, identities, and alignments of players start to take shape, one can plot out where the rest of the electrons in the electron cloud are going to be. So if I had some mystic way of divining that 8 of the non-Iso players in this game were town, I could then plot out the rest of the electrons - the last 3 players - located where the "scum electrons" would be found. With electron cloud theory, you're constantly re-evaluating the state of the game based on new information and determining which outcome of the shape of the cloud is most likely to be with the realm of existence you are in. You eliminate scum pairings and scum team possibilities by solid town electrons, and you create possible scum clusters with solid scum electrons. In approaching the game this way, the most important people to solve are the ones that are neither leaning heavily town nor heavily scum, which is why I'll sometimes take a few Days to solve the game. That said, this game seems pretty cut-and-dry, and there aren't really any ???s except in the mal slot, but again, I liked the early approach to Voxx there, so for the most part, I've been focusing on people that have actually been participating in the game.

    Obviously I currently believe the Eco/GJ/Cyan scum cluster is the most likely to exist based on the interactions in the thread thus far, hence my current worldview of the game state. It's super important to me, toDay, to have one of these three flip so that I can either re-evaluate the game if I'm wrong, or to further validate my reads if I'm not.

    Quote from Vaimes »
    Iso: because I literally have no idea what his scumgame is like and wanted something for reference.


    Oh.

    Don't be lazy. Crack That Whip! Go read XKCD or something.

    Quote from Sir Chris »
    Anyway Iso if you're town you're really good so you're probably not 0/3 but you don't tend to be 3/3 either. Also I am firmly in the belief that Eco is town. If I am wrong about Vaimes, and let's just go with that for a moment, it does open up GJ and Cyan more as possible scum suspects.

    If we're both town let's compromise and murder some scum. Can you set aside your Eco scum read?


    I can't accept a world where Eco and Cyan aren't scum together. It just doesn't make sense.

    That said, I'll happily lynch Cyan toDay.

    Quote from Azrael »
    Quote from Sir Chris »
    full disclosure I don't find much value in masons being not outed, so I don't care really. Masons power, imo, is in and of itself. Now if you had outed me as mason cop oh boy...!

    Anyway Iso if you're town you're really good so you're probably not 0/3 but you don't tend to be 3/3 either. Also I am firmly in the belief that Eco is town. If I am wrong about Vaimes, and let's just go with that for a moment, it does open up GJ and Cyan more as possible scum suspects.

    If we're both town let's compromise and murder some scum. Can you set aside your Eco scum read?


    It's generally far better for masons to survive later in the game, to assist in POE, and also to garner additional reactions. Masons who get shot early don't help POE.

    Chris, your scum-read was contingent upon Eco being powered. Iso seems to disagree, and I'm not sure I agree, either. Since Iso and I both read Eco as probable scum, that also seems like a good place to discuss.


    Thanks for the response to my long-winded mostly OoG stuff; you're right in that I didn't really give you a chance to be convinced and just sort of said "**** it" when you didn't immediately see things my way, which probably wasn't fair to you; so, for that, I apologize. And yeah, like I said, I've been trying to let less negativity into my play in general - it's just not always easy to avoid when repeating myself is one of my biggest pet peeves IRL and I have to do a lot of it in Mafia games. :p As for my spirituality, I'm a Taoist. It's very "go with the flow"-y (which is hilarious if you consider my Mafia playstyle).

    As for the Eco being powered thing, is your sole reason for thinking that the fact that he didn't claim at L-2? Because I think that's easily explainable as "Eco realized that there was doubt on several of the players voting him and felt that if he held steady and didn't budge on a claim immediately, that he could let the wagon implode on itself." He was right, for the most part. Eco not claiming is also actually another huge reason I think he has to be scum with Cyan - because townCyan always makes a big scene about people not following claim protocol and then tries to lynch them with prejudice anyway.

    (Also, to the people thinking Cyan is townie in his exchange with me regarding the backpedaling accusation, I just don't think Cyan as a player has the energy to butt heads with me any more, and scumCyan didn't need any attention drawn to him at that juncture.)

    Quote from tomsloger »
    *lets people he trusts closer to him*
    *some proximity has meaning, some just fills up a web*


    tom I love you

    Unrelatedly, why am I so far away from you on this web

    Quote from Newcomb »
    My avatar should be bigger, so as to fully encompass my greatness.

    (by the way I've decided to fully adopt the MTGS playbook, as seen in my last few posts. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!)


    Rofl I'd say you hit the nail on the head.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on Disinheritance Mafia - Night One
    Part 2 goes up to post 500 because I've been working on this for 6 and a half hours today and I'm about to have company over.

    -

    Anaklusmos:

    462 posts into the game and Anak states only the incredibly obvious. What?

    -

    Axelrod:

    At this point (#339), I'd really like Axelrod to give his insight in the game. I think he's town and I liked his observation about the Seppel/Untargetable thing, but it's unfortunate that Axelrod isn't putting some oomph into this game as of yet.

    -

    Bur:



    -

    Cyan:



    -

    Cythare:



    -

    D_V:

    #436 "hurr durr people need to post more so I can get reads!" Really?

    ...and then you Unvote him based on TIM's post? Come on, dude. Are you really trying, here? The timing on this is so forced, and the sneaky Unvote way earlier in the game along with this gives me vibes that you aren't really sure how you need to be voting in this game.

    -

    Gentleman Johnny:

    GJ not having any solid town reads 309 posts into the game...actually seems normal for him, oddly enough.

    I think GJ swinging a bit at WF to see what gives in #420 is fine.

    what the hell is Thunderoming?

    -

    Manders:

    I like Manders's wariness of me attempting to pocket her in #319. The rest of the reads seem reasonable for her to have, though I'm disappointed that she didn't find Bur as scummy as I did early on.

    While I'm annoyed that Manders changed her vote in a matter of a single post, I don't disagree with either of her votes, so, that's a thing, I guess.

    -

    Seppel:

    go away Seppel

    -

    shadowlancerx:

    I know GJ said reason-less reads were fine for this exercise, but I'd really like to know the reasons behind shadow's top 3 T/S list in #311.

    I don't like that shadow basically says, "neener neener I'm not going to post and you can't do anything about it" in #343 to Manders. Like...it's Mafia. Play the game. Additionally, I don't like the distaste for aggression, but maybe that's because I'm an aggressive player, myself. The follow-up exchange with Manders feels forced, and the vote is absolutely over-the-top.

    Wait, what? Bur, tom, and Anak are your top scumreads but you're voting Manders? I like that they're your top scum reads, but please resolve this cognitive dissonance for me.

    I think that shadow took Manders's joke way too personally but oddly I think it makes him more town that he's getting butthurt about it. Scum don't usually push people for OoG reasons (unless their name is Wrath_of_Dog).

    -

    Sir Chris:



    -

    TheIceMan:

    #387, another mindmeld.

    I chortled.

    Okay, I don't think I need to comment on TIM any more. He's pretty obviously town and I can comfortably write him off as such.

    -

    tomsloger:

    lolwut? tom thinks Anak is town (#302)? What a joke. And then tom says he's unsure of anything except Vaimes being scum...and VAIMES ISN'T EVEN IN THE MAIN GAME.

    Then in #303, tom states he doesn't understand what GJ is doing...yet he's voting for him? And then he backpedals on his stance on Anak and Bur. "Well I guess they COULD be scum but if they're town hoo boy I sure want to analyze those wagons!!!" tom, could you sound any more mechanical, here? You're clearly just going through the motions at this point.

    I would like an explanation for #316.

    Oh. I guess #327 explains it. Wait. So you're in contact with someone who counterclaimed Seppel as a Neutral? Is that what I'm reading, here? Why would that merit a vote on to Seppel? And again, if you don't like that people aren't posting content, why aren't you prompting them to do so, yourself? "I'm playing reactionary" is a garbage explanation. Also, you literally say you don't have confident reads and then in your next paragraph you say that you have town reads and a strong scumread. tom, what the **** are you doing?

    I'd like it if tom interacted with people that were actually in the game (#374) instead of just the spectators and his "special friend".

    I wish tom's #401 actually said anything.

    #404, you don't honestly know why not pushing for reads is a scummy thing? Am I missing something, here?

    And then you piggyback off of TIM and call Wildfire scum? Why did it take someone else pointing out Wildfire's insanity for you to jump on him?

    I don't understand why you care so much about the spectators.

    I also don't understand why you think your posts are "spitting gold" when you've very clearly stated that you don't have a lot of solid reads. What?

    Oh my god. I think I caught something beautiful, here. In #475, tom asks Chris, "so why am I scum if Wildfire is town?" But wasn't TIM the one who said that WF was more likely to be town for his mistakes? And tom is riding off of making such a mistake in a hope to be townread for it. Whaaat.

    -

    Tordeck:

    Of all the reasons you could be voting for Wildfire, you choose a policy lynch over something WF was clearly misremembering? No

    -

    Wildfire393:

    I'm thoroughly unimpressed by your analysis in #320. Are we reading the same game? Also dislike the "now to actually look at my role PM" tacked on at the end. Feels fake.

    Your follow-up on Manders ("tells me I'm on the right track") feels like something scum would say to follow up a vote they thought was easy. Like, where's the solving here?

    Calling Manders "Manders Busy" is hilarious and also not inaccurate to some degree, but it feels a bit dishonest since...y'know...holiday weekend. Why is Manders the only person you're calling out on this?

    lolwut? You think Anak has good content (#378)? Please tell me more about this. Please also explain how D_V's behavior aside from the Seppel stuff is indicative of scum.

    Okay, so the explanation for D_V is given...but it feels like totally unbased paranoia. Which actually gives me pause, because uh, that makes me think you're more likely to be town, here. Crackpot theories like the D_V/Seppel thing usually come from town that think they see something that nobody else does. I'm hesitant to fully call you town after this, WF, because the rest of your play has been utterly wtf-inducing, but maybe our wavelengths are just that far off, this game? But then that makes me think you're scum again, because obviously I'm always right, which means other townies should NOT be that far off from me in their own worldview. ****, I'm conflicted. Don't mind me, I'm just sitting here

    Can confirm that WF sucks at Day 1's.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Voxxicus »
    I think the logic works on 'is this possible' level, but I've sort of come around to the possibility of Eco himself being town.

    Like, do you legitimately think there's no world possible where only 1-2 of those 3 are scum, and Mal and Tom or something are in there? (Just naming names of people who haven't had major presence and could be MIA scum or hiding-behind-shtick scum)


    -

    Sorry, Newcomb! I wasn't ignoring you - your post just didn't load for some reason. I do realize that my particular style of reading people is incredibly difficult to follow for a lot of people, but I think that's just a result of the way I hunt scum being inherently different from the way a lot of people do it. I'll talk to you about Eco/GJ/Cyan a bit later on, I don't really have the time to commit to a full-blown "getting into the nitty-gritty" at the moment. I realize that "oh we sheeped Iso and the game was a total blowout because he is awesome" isn't exactly the most exciting way to play Mafia, but if I'm right, it's another win to chalk up - and if I'm wrong, I can eat the humble pie and learn where I went wrong and become a better player from it.

    -

    @Voxx: There's like a 13% chance that mal or tom or someone is the scum in the Eco slot I'm touting. My scum reads on the trio I'm pushing are far too solid to even look at the ??? slots. That's not a high enough number for me to consider another electron cloud until I learn where my current reads are. If I'm proven to be wrong, I'll gladly reanalyze what we have and consider another universe - but there's literally 0 reason for me to do that until I am incorrect, here. This is how I flesh out my reads. You know this.

    -

    @Az: I mean, yeah, I didn't WANT to out you guys as being Masons, but if I didn't, this game was going to start going extremely poorly for the town. I also realize that I could be more diplomatic in my approach but I've long since stopped arguing points that people aren't going to come around on no matter how wrong they are or how right I am. People will convince themselves of anything they want to believe. I've laid out my arguments. They aren't changing. If you can't agree with my reads on a fundamental level, you're not going to until I make the scum die. So I focus my efforts elsewhere. Again, I only have to get the majority to vote for my scum reads - you, personally, don't have to be on that wagon. Screaming my scumreads at a player behaving as a wall would made me a very unpleasant person to play Mafia with for a long time, and very much contributed to my level of burnout. By not engaging with you, it's not out of disrespect for you, but out of consideration for my sanity and enjoyment of the game. I catch scum, I explain why, and that should be all I need to do - I've caught scum, so I'm obviously town, which means - at least, to me - that I don't need to project my shining beacon of townieness unto the game thread any more. My reads will speak for themselves when they have flipped. Could I be busing scum? Sure, but that's up to you to determine - and you won't know until I've either won us the game or you've somehow gotten me lynched. But that's your responsibility. The fundamental difference in the way people think makes it impossible for everyone to see eye-to-eye in absolutely everything, which is why I think arguing my cases to you is a lost cause; I don't think your brain is wired the way mine is, and maybe you'll eventually pick up on the flow of the game and see what I'm seeing, but I don't expect repeatedly talking to you about my reads is going to change that - because, again, the best cases don't need to be 40 paragraph long epic novels on the dynamics of scum interactivity. Again, I apologize if I haven't been the most personable about this, but as I said: Getting pushed on by someone you're hard-reading as a Mason from page 1 for having picked up on said Masonry and not being concerned about the state of the game as such (as well as the lack of concern for other reasons, such as the beautiful Eco wagon right off the bat) is irritating and inconvenient. Yes, I can be insufferably arrogant about Mafia stuff - and I don't think that's without merit. I do also recognize that I could be a lot more personable when people are disagreeing with me, but my spiritual views encourage me to take the path of least resistance, and sometimes that just means ignoring or demoralizing someone until they follow you. It's not the nicest thing to do, but it's effective. I have been trying to do that less lately, as I realize it makes me unpleasant to play with, but I used to be a lot worse about a lot of things.

    If you want more insight on why I'm viewing the game the way that I am, please take a look at my narrative of my reads, the way they developed, and try to feel the mindset behind Eco and GJ's posts as I've described them. Also take into consideration my interpretation of the events surrounding the Eco wagon as it pertains to Cyan, and their utter lack of interactivity/Cyan's approach to the Eco wagon once he actually showed up.

    -

    @Vaimes: Sorry, I forgot to respond to your question - what exactly do you want to know about Cyan's scum game?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Quote from Sir Chris »
    Iso who is your scum team again?


    Eco/GJ/Cyan

    this hasn't changed in like 300+ posts so can we stop making me repeat this plzktx

    Quote from Voxxicus »
    Three probably!

    More seriously, it'd depend how genuine your thought process were when you were proven to be wrong, I think.

    Like, I can absolutely see you, as scum, tying 1-2 town to a buddy you buss with this absolute confidence, then going 'Hm, the last one is being tricky', and trying to lead town on a merry goose chase to find the last scum (that's actually you), because.... that's kind of how I tend to play scum.


    Oh, I've absolutely done this before, and it was hilarious and fun. But...what's the benefit to busing 1-2 of my buddies so early, here? I've more than proven that lately, I'm far more of a scum team player than I used to be when I started playing Mafia. Do you disagree with my logic from earlier on regarding this matter, at least as it pertains to Eco?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Thought exercise for you, Voxx: How many of my scum reads have to be right for you to town read me, here? (inb4 3)
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    If anything, the fact that I was RIGHT should lend credence to my scumteam theory. Laugh
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    I mean, everyone told me I couldn't be that confident about the entire team on Day 1 in...basically every game I caught the team Day 1 in.

    But it's okay, once one of them flips, the trail of scum dominoes (scuminoes?) will start to topple, because, "Wait a minute - if Iso was right about this one, what about the others?"

    In Stargate, when I killed Chris on N1, we hellmurdered tom the next Day straight out the gate and nobody batted an eye. Newcomb and Nacho panicked because they knew they were next if my furious momentum carried on, and they had to dig their feet in REALLY hard for even Newcomb not to get lynched on D3. So, yeah - it'll kinda be like that.
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    @Az: Not counting Micros due to their gimmicky nature and scum games for obvious reasons:

    ZDS's Normal: I nailed all 3 scum to the wall on Day 1, and while I missed the Traitor, I didn't need to lynch him to win.

    Blackout Mafia: I caught not_a_gimmick when the Rhand wagon was too late to save, and then I decided that we needed to lynch Killjoy and DoT to win. The scum team was not_a_gimmick and DoT.

    Mind Screw: I didn't pay attention to this game because when I replaced in it felt like everyone that was posting actively was scum, which was oddly accurate.

    Twinborn: I replaced in to this game and nabbed 2 of the 3 scum but wasn't able to put in the effort necessary to convince everyone we should be lynching them and ended up doubting my own reads at the end, which cost us the game (along with a couple of other factors).

    Stargate: I was an SK and slaughtered the entire scum team on Day 1, and Newcomb had to gambit/lie to save his team and get me off their backs, which ended up in a lynch on me. It didn't help that I was already under scrutiny for my insane (but accurate) theories on the scumteam. But I did have the entire team pegged D1.

    2015 Invitational: I struggled a bit in this game and early on I decided that Proph and Chris were scum but I was never going to catch Wheat.

    True Name Mafia: I named 2 of the scum and the Neutral as the scum team on Day 1, but I also was able to name literally every single player's True Name on Day 1, so I think that counts for something. Slant

    The Wall Mafia: I named the scum team on Day 1 but nobody listened to me so we lost.

    XKCD Mafia: I think I named the scum team on Day 2? Either that, or towards the end of Day 1. I came under scrutiny, myself, and even got lynched, but I was absolutely correct.

    Celestial Mafia: I said, "Let's solve Killjoy and AI and I can name the scum team." So we did, and I did. On Day 2.

    So let's break it down:

    ZDS: Caught all scum D1
    Blackout: Implemented game-winning plan before N1
    Mind Screw: Everyone was scum
    Twinborn: Caught 2 of 3 scum D1
    Stargate: Caught all scum D1
    Invitational: Caught 2 of 3 scum D1, but then I think I got distracted
    True Name Mafia: Caught 2 of 3 scum and a Neutral D1
    The Wall Mafia: Caught all scum D1
    XKCD Mafia: Caught all scum either at end of D1 or somewhere in D2
    Celestial Mafia: Caught all scum D2

    As for grace and poise, it really depends on the game. Some games, I was a rockstar. Others, I had to beat people over the head with my worldview. This is looking like it's going to have to be the latter, as much as the early game made me feel like it was going to be the former. I'm sorry if I'm being a dick, but I'm thoroughly annoyed that we've gotten to this point.

    -

    @Voxx: I've only played a few Micros between then and now. Why?
    Posted in: Mafia
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    posted a message on 2016 MTGS Mafia Invitational (Hearthstone Mafia) - Day 1
    Kekeke
    Posted in: Mafia
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