Yeah. It has been brought up that CI is actually a forum designed specifically for the CI Forum users. There are people that post more here than anywhere else.
Yeah, well. No more Gutter for to let us vent, and all that.
O_o
But the issue isn't that CI is needed because you (or Bel or whomever) got brushed off. The issue is that the mods shouldn't be brushing people off. And believe me, I get that because I've been brushed off several times now. My solution has been to find mods who don't do that and speak directly to them. It's slower, but better than getting brushed off repeatedly.
Well, consider the threads where someone's like "Can we get this feature" like the Thank This Post thread or the Holiday Card Exchange threads. These are legitimate, positive uses of the CI forum and why it is needed, at least.
I can assure you, during the two times I was moderator, the lounge was used as a means of discussing topics sensetive to interfearence from non-staff.
Yes, I know. The problem is that that is not all it is used for. There is the GRRR, which is nothing more than a time vampire by design, and there are numerous threads involving little privileged content. While I don't necessarily agree that these threads don't allow for a certain amount of decompression, some feel that the mods should decompress on, you know, the main forums instead like the rest of us, where their expertise in their fields would allow a broader audience to view their insight and improve the site for the whole of the userbase, instead of just the privileged few.
Considering the context of the rest of the post, it was pretty obvious I was referring to the gutter and so that was just used as an opportunity to take an unnecessary pot shot at the staff. And frankly, the concept of the mod lounge is necessary and has been around since MTGNews. Guess how much drama there was back then over information that users need not be privy to? Zero, because they didn't empower instigators through acknowledging and validating them.
Regardless of how you, or I, might feel about the current drift of the Community Issues subforum, neither of us can deny that positive change for the site has come of it, however. This is why almost every website has one, in one form or another, just as they almost all have off-topic discussion boards (several popular boards are essentially little more than these two forums).
An instigator is trying to instigate something, and this is not always a bad thing. The Staff Inbox, for instance, which I like quite a bit, would not have been started, nor probably thought up, by a person on staff, as it seems likely they wouldn't have realized the need for such a thing. It was also created in the midst of dense conflict, which, sad as it is, breeds faster change.
@Yomako: The issue which many users (again, not necessarily I) feel is up for discussion is that the ML is not only used for private discussion, it is its own subculture at this point, much in the same way that the Gutter used to be; that the best and most vibrant discussion takes place there between the best and most vibrant posters. To some, it seems wrong that regular posters on the main boards don't get to share in this input, and ML discussion should be kept to, as you say, privileged topics.
And that means that if things are going to get better, the staff are going to need to be the better people and step it up with some solid new ideas. If we wait for all the individual members of the userbase to be better people on their own and dump the hysterics, we'll be waiting for a while.
When others fall short, leaders have to step up to fill the gap. Pragmatically, that's how you have to adapt to an imperfect world and the imperfect people living in it. By relying on the good people amongst you to help reach a better way, and bringing everyone else along with them.
Ah, but that's the problem, innit? Staff turnover has been happening so fast recently that as soon as someone shows even a glimmer of integrity, they become part of the leadership. That, in fact, was your point, that Staff Culture has gone out of control... made more worrisome when you consider there are precious few Grey Knights left to defend those of the muggle userbase who can disagree with staff in a gracious way.
I wouldn't say my views on this have ever changed.
I disagree, sir, and that's what worries me. In Gloves, you and I fought together, and you worked hard, coming to a compromise that benefited everyone. Now I see you issuing what amount to ultimatums, dire warnings, and the whole thing comes off as, well, as a stump speech a week before the election. Understand, I don't actually ask this as an attack, either on your suggestions or your character, in fact I admire the fact that you're seeking solutions instead of just pointing, once again, to the problem, but what you suggest just flies in the face of what you've said before... wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago that you were saying the Gutter members wouldn't come back even if allowed to?
I know that this schism has grown, to the point where it's almost impossible to see the other side clearly.. hell, in just a few months I've watched my persona here collapse from a man of some integrity, capable of making a speech or two of his own, to little more than an impotent troll barely able to scrawl out a quip, taking actions that try so desperately to bridge that chasm that it must have seemed suicidal. I too, weary quickly of a staff that constantly, always asks for time and more time, time to consult and discuss and brainburststorm and paint their own set of fences (in pink, no less); I wish they would find a new bargaining chip.
...but then you had to go and talk about idealism. It reminded me of another man who has much to say on the topic of enthusiasm [link NSFW for use of strong language], and it gave me great pause. The Father of the Gutter spent a great deal of his time here banging his head against this wall of Us vs. Them, and to a great degree failed. It is time we stopped following in his footsteps, and accepted that our place isn't to try to sneak into the Mod Lounge, get in there with a bowl of soup and maybe tell them a little something about Jesus. To do otherwise is to bring down our previous ideals.
What we can do from over here, however, and this is so important it might be the lynchpin of the continuation of the site, is to stop listening to the leak. I know that's hard, so very hard, but waving privileged information in the staff's face is only going to make these leaks harder to suppress, make their violation more painful.. if we ignore them, however, if we have trust that the staff, inexperienced as it is, can lead us forward, we take away every iota of the mole's power, and our strong voices will finally be able to be heard above their whispers.
Az, while I do respect you, I too wonder at these dramatic shifts in your personal feelings towards correct staff management. While you were certainly an excellent administrator, your tenure was also exceptionally short and shotgunned somewhat by what I would call the most terrifying threat the site has ever known, though I do hate to use the Dubya Defense here.
Unknown. Curse turtled up, Hannes is MIA. Would you buy a forum with a seething community already throwing rocks? No, you wouldn't. Likely we've all pissed the bed enough that it can be seen from orbit; you'd have to be crazy to buy in now.
I believe that to be speculation. Is it? Business entities often buy struggling entities specifically because it's easier to clean things up under new management.. although granted HR is a different beast altogether, so I'm not sure how common it is there.
Why?
Yeah, well. No more Gutter for to let us vent, and all that.
O_o
Oh, no, that doesn't work. Too many sigs, too many customs, too many veiled statements drag you back in.
Then what is it?
Well, consider the threads where someone's like "Can we get this feature" like the Thank This Post thread or the Holiday Card Exchange threads. These are legitimate, positive uses of the CI forum and why it is needed, at least.
Yes, I know. The problem is that that is not all it is used for. There is the GRRR, which is nothing more than a time vampire by design, and there are numerous threads involving little privileged content. While I don't necessarily agree that these threads don't allow for a certain amount of decompression, some feel that the mods should decompress on, you know, the main forums instead like the rest of us, where their expertise in their fields would allow a broader audience to view their insight and improve the site for the whole of the userbase, instead of just the privileged few.
Go Go Devil's Advocate!
Regardless of how you, or I, might feel about the current drift of the Community Issues subforum, neither of us can deny that positive change for the site has come of it, however. This is why almost every website has one, in one form or another, just as they almost all have off-topic discussion boards (several popular boards are essentially little more than these two forums).
An instigator is trying to instigate something, and this is not always a bad thing. The Staff Inbox, for instance, which I like quite a bit, would not have been started, nor probably thought up, by a person on staff, as it seems likely they wouldn't have realized the need for such a thing. It was also created in the midst of dense conflict, which, sad as it is, breeds faster change.
@Yomako: The issue which many users (again, not necessarily I) feel is up for discussion is that the ML is not only used for private discussion, it is its own subculture at this point, much in the same way that the Gutter used to be; that the best and most vibrant discussion takes place there between the best and most vibrant posters. To some, it seems wrong that regular posters on the main boards don't get to share in this input, and ML discussion should be kept to, as you say, privileged topics.
Equal footing, and all that.
It's not important. Sorry for bringing it up.
Ah, but that's the problem, innit? Staff turnover has been happening so fast recently that as soon as someone shows even a glimmer of integrity, they become part of the leadership. That, in fact, was your point, that Staff Culture has gone out of control... made more worrisome when you consider there are precious few Grey Knights left to defend those of the muggle userbase who can disagree with staff in a gracious way.
Edit- Hence, leak.
Actually, Sene, if the last few months have taught us anything, yes, sometimes it does hurt to try.
I disagree, sir, and that's what worries me. In Gloves, you and I fought together, and you worked hard, coming to a compromise that benefited everyone. Now I see you issuing what amount to ultimatums, dire warnings, and the whole thing comes off as, well, as a stump speech a week before the election. Understand, I don't actually ask this as an attack, either on your suggestions or your character, in fact I admire the fact that you're seeking solutions instead of just pointing, once again, to the problem, but what you suggest just flies in the face of what you've said before... wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago that you were saying the Gutter members wouldn't come back even if allowed to?
I know that this schism has grown, to the point where it's almost impossible to see the other side clearly.. hell, in just a few months I've watched my persona here collapse from a man of some integrity, capable of making a speech or two of his own, to little more than an impotent troll barely able to scrawl out a quip, taking actions that try so desperately to bridge that chasm that it must have seemed suicidal. I too, weary quickly of a staff that constantly, always asks for time and more time, time to consult and discuss and brain
burststorm and paint their own set of fences (in pink, no less); I wish they would find a new bargaining chip....but then you had to go and talk about idealism. It reminded me of another man who has much to say on the topic of enthusiasm [link NSFW for use of strong language], and it gave me great pause. The Father of the Gutter spent a great deal of his time here banging his head against this wall of Us vs. Them, and to a great degree failed. It is time we stopped following in his footsteps, and accepted that our place isn't to try to sneak into the Mod Lounge, get in there with a bowl of soup and maybe tell them a little something about Jesus. To do otherwise is to bring down our previous ideals.
What we can do from over here, however, and this is so important it might be the lynchpin of the continuation of the site, is to stop listening to the leak. I know that's hard, so very hard, but waving privileged information in the staff's face is only going to make these leaks harder to suppress, make their violation more painful.. if we ignore them, however, if we have trust that the staff, inexperienced as it is, can lead us forward, we take away every iota of the mole's power, and our strong voices will finally be able to be heard above their whispers.
Erm, /soapbox
For what? There's a difference between forgiveness and enabling, brother.
I believe that to be speculation. Is it? Business entities often buy struggling entities specifically because it's easier to clean things up under new management.. although granted HR is a different beast altogether, so I'm not sure how common it is there.