It may have helped in game 1 against The Gate but I still would have lost game 2 because of Null Rod and it wouldn't have helped at all against Show and Tell, because those games ended in 3 turns.
It would have made the Junk and Merfolk games more consistent, but I get what your saying sometimes I think that 2 draw at once is the way to go for this deck and adding DC would probably just increase the mid/late consistency of this deck.
Yeah, I flip back and forth between TC and DC too. When I put DCs in, I also put in some lotus petals to try to increase the chances of rushing out either DC or SFM on turn one. I don't have a lot of decks to play against here though so I'm not sure how well it all works in practice.
Killing before turn 3 is rough. I don't think any variation here can kill by turn three consistently. Sure, it's possible but needs a really lucky hand (probably involving either a turn two tezz or very quick double platings).
On SFM lists: After further testing of various lists, I simply do not find Batterskull as good as the standard list. Anyone who plays a SFM list hwoever, I would strongly reccomend that you check out the list I posted on the previous page. Batterskull is good. Equipping it to a Ornithopter/Skirge/Pest/Champ T4 is insane.
I find Batterskull to be a good backup plan and a way for me to go into the mid-game more capable of pulling away a win. I'll get it if for some reason plating isn't going to work. For example, if my opponent has Pithing Needle on plating or they've just recently wiped the board (pyroclasm) and I need more bodies. I find that having the SFMs have the flexibility of being a beefy creature and/or plating is valuable.
In your comparison were you talking about an SFM+Batterskull list vs a more typical affinity list? And that you preferred the typical build?
Yeah but Star City Games rips people off on every card price really. So do most sites... At least on eBay people are bidding, so they are ripping themselves off.
Oh yes, those poor people who were forced to buy from SCG. They had the free will to bid on eBay, so that's their own fault, but elsewhere... yeah, they were mind controlled by the evil SCG and couldn't help but buy.
Sure, if you can get $35 for a POS like this, go nuts. I don't blame Ben and co for exploiting stupid peoples' willingness to spend that kind of money on terrible cards. Its a bit unethical but whatever pays the bills right?
Unethical? It's not like they're tricking people into buying the cards. If there's demand for JMA at $35, SCG should feel free to meet that demand at that price. If there's not, they'll end up lowering the price to find out where the demand is. Nothing unethical about that.
Buying cards at a certain price goes both ways. Would you call buyers unethical for getting Tarmogoyfs for a handful of dollars before we knew he was crazy good? Nobody's forcing or tricking anyone into buying/selling at a certain price.
I played some test games with SFM, but I wasn't happy. I didn't detect a major increase in power, but I did detect a slowdown of my deck by around one turn. Sometimes that one turn was all my opponent needed to topdeck a SB card to wreck me.
I don't think it necessarily increases power, but rather consistency. I've had games where I just kind of fizzle if I don't stick a plating. Having essentially 2x of them and a way to sneak it past a counter is great. Certainly having to cast an SFM to find a plating versus just having one to start with is slower, but it's better than having to try to topdeck one of four.
Honestly, Stoneforge Mystic is not a must play. When it is in an opening hand, you will probably want to play out your hand before casting it. Because, you will want to bait out counterspells, and , in the case of getting Cranial Platting, you want critical mass of artifacts. It just helps to pull out a win condition earlier then normal or when you need it. I don't think that we need a full control set or for that matter trade in our creatures for Aether Vials.
Yep, I agree. When I cast SFM, I actually generally go for the plating. I do have one batterskull that I can find when it seems more helpful, but usually I'm getting a plating. If I can turn 1 an SFM, I usually go for a batterskull (especially if I already have a plating in hand). I find I either rush her out turn 1 or wait until after dropping a lot of the rest of my hand.
Yeah, there's definitely a market for fake cards, but I would guess they'd be limited to casual play only since I don't ever see a large scale tournament sanctioning cards printed outside of WotC at the same level as official ones. I could see the fakes being used as proxies in tournaments where those are allowed (even though I'm not sure of the legal implications of that)... but I think we've seen those actually have a negative impact on the turnout. Not sure how accurate they are, but I've seen articles that say proxies had a negative impact on vintage tournaments. *shrug*
I don't mean to be contrarian, but it is fun to discuss... I doubt WotC would ever let a third party create official/licensed Magic cards. It just doesn't seem likely they would ever give up control of the product like that. A lot of the value placed on the cards, game, etc. is because people have trust in WotC and outside of a few bans here and there, they generally do a pretty good job IMO. Perhaps they may let a trusted partner do something like an Unset or another "add-on" type game but I can't see them risking their image by letting third parties create cards that would impact their tournaments, etc. It is an interesting idea to think about though.
I'm not even sure if I should be posting this in this thread anymore since I have absolutely no affinity cards left. I've swapped out thoughtcasts for dark confidants and threw in 3 Lotus Petals to increase the chances I can get out a turn 1 dark confidant and/or SFM, both of which require an answer immediately. The slots the petals took used to be frogmites, but I found they generally didn't make much of a difference outside of increasing my artifact count, which petals do the same for and can provide a bit of a speed boost. They also give you another way to hit metalcraft on turn one for an opal, in which case you actually have three mana available to you to drop an EC or MoE (or alternatively, you could cast a 2 drop, then 2nd turn tezzeret).
I was testing out the ravagers and I'm still not sure if I want them in or not or to redistribute across the other 3-ofs. I do like that they let you make good use out of multiple mox opals.
I haven't worked out a sideboard, but I'd probably put in a few swords, anti-hate, and perhaps missteps.
*shrug* Just some ideas on a list I was toying with. Have fun. =)
There is no such thing as an "international copyright" that will automatically protect an author's works in countries around the world. Instead, copyright protection is “territorial” in nature, which means that copyright protection depends on the national laws where protection is sought.
This is straight from the U.S. patent office. They can't be in violation of a copyright since there isn't a law formally stopping them in the country of origin. With that in mind the game mechanics would now be open since the patent is over in 2015. I didn't express it clear enough that the court wouldn't uphold the copyright because they can't since they don't have jurisdiction. They can do a token gesture and say it but it would have no effect. With the patent gone you don't think a foreign company couldn't commission cards to be made of the same exact card stock and printing process? I'm not saying this will definitely happen. All I was saying is that this could definitely be a much more real possibility with game popularity and card prices at the highest we've ever seen.
But this isn't any different from the situation today. Replicas could be printed in China or elsewhere today and you're right, the USA couldn't stop them due to US copyright laws (it would prevent them from being sold en-masse in the US, however). If you're saying US copyright laws won't stop international duplicates, then why is a US patent doing so today? That doesn't make any sense. Both patents and copyright are territorial. If you're voiding copyright mattering because it's territorial, then that applies to patents too. The patent expiring isn't going to have any impact on prices of cards in the US, at least not due to causing replica cards being printed more heavily.
I'm sure on a small scale, people could get fake cards into the US (they do so today, even), and I doubt anyone is going to care enough to stop it when it's at a small scale. This is similar to people going to China and buying bootleg DVDs. Anyways, I don't see any large scale tournament allowing these cards since both WotC and SCG, and probably any future company running large tournaments has a vested interest in the products they make/sell, not being an outlet for knock-offs (regardless of how closely they resemble the originals). Plus, no one could mass sell the knock-offs in the US without facing legal consequences.
I already explained all of that so it's not inaccurate and you just agreed with me. I specifically identified that art and such are under the copyright but that has nothing to do with the patent. That means a company could make a card called underground sea with a completely different picture and not have magic the gathering or such written on the back. I also said they could fight for the copyrights on such things if someone did still use the art and such. However, a court doesn't necessarily have to grant them a continuation of the copyright. Patents and such aren't necessarily international so again what I said isn't inaccurate.
When a Chinese industrial spy takes information back about proprietary materials there's no way to prosecute or stop a Chinese company from making the product. This is even easier when there's no longer a patent. Yes, WotC doesn't have to allow the cards which I noted but I also stated that a separate tournament scene could spring up from this. They aren't proxies because they are actual printed cards they would be unlicensed which is a completely different story. This happened in the 80's and 90's when a separate company was making 8 bit Nintendo games. No matter how you slice it they were Nintendo games and played in the 8 bit Nintendo. They just didn't have the Nintendo seal on them or say Nintendo. You can say it isn't a licensed magic card since it doesn't have there approval but if it's designed the same, has the same function, symbols, size, shape and there's a tournament scene for it, it's a magic card to those who play it and anyone who sees it. The prices of original versions of cards will always be higher no one is debating that. However a flood of brand new reprints at a decreased price would make them less attractive to purchase if a tournament scene as big as SCG sprang up that allowed the cards to be played. Do you really think the have-nots and even some high level players wouldn't jump at an additional tournament scene especially if card availability becomes less of a problem.
My point is basically regardless of the patent being around or not, there's not really any difference between your conjectured Chinese cards and the proxies/fakes that are around today. If the patent expired, the only difference would be that they would be in violation of only copyright and not a patent. I realize that patents and copyrights aren't universally international, and that's why there already exists Magic fakes/knock-offs (Chinese, even!). I don't think these have any real impact, especially on the legit card prices, and I don't think the patent expiring impacts that at all.
The patent WotC has is on the CCG system. It means that other similar games/CCGs must get permission from WotC to print their product which generally means getting a license. A license to use the system the patent outlines does not mean you get to reprint Magic cards (which are protected via copyright). All the patent expiration means is that some company could create a game similar to magic (its rules system, collectible aspect, etc.) and not have to get a license from WotC. It does not mean they actually get to freely reprint underground seas, which has numerous copyright-able aspects (card art, card frame art, name, text/rules, etc.).
Your argument about copyright not holding up in court is silly. That's like saying bootleggers could be free to print fake copies of DVDs because a court might not hold the copyright up. I'm not entirely sure if that's even possible since I'm confident printing replicas of something for profit don't fall under fair use. Maybe there's a small chance some crazy court decided to just throw copyright law out the window and let someone steal from WotC, but that seems so unlikely that it's just silly to consider. Why would a court not maintain WotC's copyright? That's just like saying, yeah, murder's illegal, but a court might let someone get away with it... so yeah, it's fine.
On a sidenote, I was actually able to find out through a little internet research that WotC patent on MTG expires in 2015. What this means is that anyone could then make MTG cards. Granted they could fight for the copyrights for mana and tap symbols here in the states but what's to stop a foreign manufacturer from producing identical magic cards with symbols and such and then selling them via the internet? No reprints is begging for them to get there toes stepped on in the worse way starting in 2015. I could definitely see a Chinese company making revised copy duals and other RL goodies with them ending up here in the U.S. Without a patent you can't actually call them fake cards as they are open for printing now. The only thing would be if a company here in the states did it which would make it difficult for them to make a card with all the symbols and back face type. However, this could all be fought in court as their 20 year patent would be up and the copyright courts may not feel they need to grant them exclusivity on the symbols and such anymore. All I know if they should really be thinking about how they could end up alienating a large group of players and how a separate tournament scene could spring up where card availability isn't an issue because of more reasonably priced reprints from foreign countries.
I think you need to do more research before you say completely inaccurate things like this. There's a big difference between a patent (which in this case is probably around core concepts/rules/etc. of a CCG) and copyright which would apply to a ton of stuff on a card (art, text, etc.). Even factoring that out, I don't see how "you can't actually call them fake cards" applies here. The financial value of a lot of cards is determined based upon what WotC deems legal in tournaments. Just because proxies (which would basically be what these are) would be allowed to be printed and sold (again, ignoring copyright), doesn't mean WotC is forced to allow those cards to be legal. Sure, other places could make them legal in their own tournaments, but that's basically the exact same scenario with proxy cards in general even in today's world.
The problem I see with Dark Confidant is that it makes the deck more susceptible to board-wide effects. It's hard enough to bounce back from a board wipe with thoughtcasts. Its even harder to do it with Dark Confidants.
As for SFM, is it required to play a set maindeck? Will three be enough? Maybe even 2? Since our strategy doesn't really revolve around SFM and we just need it to grab one of our wincons, maybe two would be a good number? That way it doesn't lower the artifact count too much and we don't have to color-intensify for white?
Also, if ever, would it be okay to remove dispatches for SFMs? 4 dispatch for 4 SFMs? Or are they better being run at the same time?
Yeah, I guess it depends on the board wipe. If played post-board-wipe, is it really reasonable to expect the two cards from a thoughtcast (if you can even play it after a board wipe) to push you through? Seems like DC isn't necessarily worse after a wipe as it'll give you boosts every turn instead of a one time shot (and can potentially add a little bit of damage itself). Pernicious Deed is definitely a problem the sideboard probably should have an answer to, but I think deed or similar is a problem for any affinity deck.
I tested with 3 SFMs, but given the importance of plating, I upped it to 4 to make it even more likely that I can get one. Plus, dropping multiple platings on the board rarely turned out to be bad and makes the loss of one plating not as big of a deal. That said, I'm not sure 4 is a must. I would prefer them in the main over dispatch though as many times I'd prefer a cranial over removing a creature (with 10+ evasive creatures, usually you just blow past their guy).
What I like about SFM in this deck is, it fetches one of our most powerful win conditions.
How can it be bad to play 8 Cranial Platings?
Not only that, but being able to get it into play under counter magic is a little to inticing not to try out.
Yep, exactly. Even thought Batterskull is often the equipment fetched with SFM in other decks, I find that I only really end up getting it if I land a T1 SFM (not super often, but a hand of SFM, mox, art land, and 0 drop is not unheard of given the number of art lands and 0 drops) or I really need another body on the board for some reason. It sucks when you can't find a card that scales with the number of artifacts you have and SFMs make that much less likely and has the added bonus of being able to sidestep countermagic by "vialing" it in.
I'm not completely sold on Thoughtcast being taken out for Dark Confidant and I can see why some people might go the other way, but I feel DCs help us much more should the game extend into midgame. What I like about my list is the number of "must answer" cards that can hit the board. Replacing the TCs with DCs add yet another creature on the board that the opponent will not want to let stay around and if they choose to kill a DC or a SFM, that means it's less likely they kill an Etched, MoE, Vault Skirge, etc.
I find that it's just as fast as many other builds, but more consistently finds a plating due to the SFMs, which is pretty crucial in getting quick kills. I might change up the Etched/MoE/Frogmite numbers in order to add one more Etched.
I decided to add Dark Confidants instead of Thoughtcast as I found that TCs led to possible explosive starts but then you could quickly run out of steam. The confidants give you continued card advantage and add another "must answer" creature to the board. Went with vault skirges instead of signal pests because the life gain is pretty awesome and makes the drawback of the confidants non-existent. A turn 1 confidant or SFM (leading into turn 2 Batterskull) is pretty brutal and happens fairly often.
MoE + SFM + Platings + Tezz = 14 cards that lead to something that scales with the number of artifacts you have.
You've been playing wrong. They go away immediately as a state based effect.
Yeah, I flip back and forth between TC and DC too. When I put DCs in, I also put in some lotus petals to try to increase the chances of rushing out either DC or SFM on turn one. I don't have a lot of decks to play against here though so I'm not sure how well it all works in practice.
Killing before turn 3 is rough. I don't think any variation here can kill by turn three consistently. Sure, it's possible but needs a really lucky hand (probably involving either a turn two tezz or very quick double platings).
I find Batterskull to be a good backup plan and a way for me to go into the mid-game more capable of pulling away a win. I'll get it if for some reason plating isn't going to work. For example, if my opponent has Pithing Needle on plating or they've just recently wiped the board (pyroclasm) and I need more bodies. I find that having the SFMs have the flexibility of being a beefy creature and/or plating is valuable.
In your comparison were you talking about an SFM+Batterskull list vs a more typical affinity list? And that you preferred the typical build?
Oh yes, those poor people who were forced to buy from SCG. They had the free will to bid on eBay, so that's their own fault, but elsewhere... yeah, they were mind controlled by the evil SCG and couldn't help but buy.
Unethical? It's not like they're tricking people into buying the cards. If there's demand for JMA at $35, SCG should feel free to meet that demand at that price. If there's not, they'll end up lowering the price to find out where the demand is. Nothing unethical about that.
Buying cards at a certain price goes both ways. Would you call buyers unethical for getting Tarmogoyfs for a handful of dollars before we knew he was crazy good? Nobody's forcing or tricking anyone into buying/selling at a certain price.
I don't think it necessarily increases power, but rather consistency. I've had games where I just kind of fizzle if I don't stick a plating. Having essentially 2x of them and a way to sneak it past a counter is great. Certainly having to cast an SFM to find a plating versus just having one to start with is slower, but it's better than having to try to topdeck one of four.
Yep, I agree. When I cast SFM, I actually generally go for the plating. I do have one batterskull that I can find when it seems more helpful, but usually I'm getting a plating. If I can turn 1 an SFM, I usually go for a batterskull (especially if I already have a plating in hand). I find I either rush her out turn 1 or wait until after dropping a lot of the rest of my hand.
I don't mean to be contrarian, but it is fun to discuss... I doubt WotC would ever let a third party create official/licensed Magic cards. It just doesn't seem likely they would ever give up control of the product like that. A lot of the value placed on the cards, game, etc. is because people have trust in WotC and outside of a few bans here and there, they generally do a pretty good job IMO. Perhaps they may let a trusted partner do something like an Unset or another "add-on" type game but I can't see them risking their image by letting third parties create cards that would impact their tournaments, etc. It is an interesting idea to think about though.
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid
Creatures
3 Etched Champion
3 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Vault Skirge
4 Dark Confidant
2 Master of Etherium
3 Arcbound Ravager
4 Mox Opal
4 Cranial Plating
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Batterskull
3 Lotus Petal
3 Springleaf Drum
I'm not even sure if I should be posting this in this thread anymore since I have absolutely no affinity cards left. I've swapped out thoughtcasts for dark confidants and threw in 3 Lotus Petals to increase the chances I can get out a turn 1 dark confidant and/or SFM, both of which require an answer immediately. The slots the petals took used to be frogmites, but I found they generally didn't make much of a difference outside of increasing my artifact count, which petals do the same for and can provide a bit of a speed boost. They also give you another way to hit metalcraft on turn one for an opal, in which case you actually have three mana available to you to drop an EC or MoE (or alternatively, you could cast a 2 drop, then 2nd turn tezzeret).
I was testing out the ravagers and I'm still not sure if I want them in or not or to redistribute across the other 3-ofs. I do like that they let you make good use out of multiple mox opals.
I haven't worked out a sideboard, but I'd probably put in a few swords, anti-hate, and perhaps missteps.
*shrug* Just some ideas on a list I was toying with. Have fun. =)
But this isn't any different from the situation today. Replicas could be printed in China or elsewhere today and you're right, the USA couldn't stop them due to US copyright laws (it would prevent them from being sold en-masse in the US, however). If you're saying US copyright laws won't stop international duplicates, then why is a US patent doing so today? That doesn't make any sense. Both patents and copyright are territorial. If you're voiding copyright mattering because it's territorial, then that applies to patents too. The patent expiring isn't going to have any impact on prices of cards in the US, at least not due to causing replica cards being printed more heavily.
I'm sure on a small scale, people could get fake cards into the US (they do so today, even), and I doubt anyone is going to care enough to stop it when it's at a small scale. This is similar to people going to China and buying bootleg DVDs. Anyways, I don't see any large scale tournament allowing these cards since both WotC and SCG, and probably any future company running large tournaments has a vested interest in the products they make/sell, not being an outlet for knock-offs (regardless of how closely they resemble the originals). Plus, no one could mass sell the knock-offs in the US without facing legal consequences.
My point is basically regardless of the patent being around or not, there's not really any difference between your conjectured Chinese cards and the proxies/fakes that are around today. If the patent expired, the only difference would be that they would be in violation of only copyright and not a patent. I realize that patents and copyrights aren't universally international, and that's why there already exists Magic fakes/knock-offs (Chinese, even!). I don't think these have any real impact, especially on the legit card prices, and I don't think the patent expiring impacts that at all.
The patent WotC has is on the CCG system. It means that other similar games/CCGs must get permission from WotC to print their product which generally means getting a license. A license to use the system the patent outlines does not mean you get to reprint Magic cards (which are protected via copyright). All the patent expiration means is that some company could create a game similar to magic (its rules system, collectible aspect, etc.) and not have to get a license from WotC. It does not mean they actually get to freely reprint underground seas, which has numerous copyright-able aspects (card art, card frame art, name, text/rules, etc.).
Your argument about copyright not holding up in court is silly. That's like saying bootleggers could be free to print fake copies of DVDs because a court might not hold the copyright up. I'm not entirely sure if that's even possible since I'm confident printing replicas of something for profit don't fall under fair use. Maybe there's a small chance some crazy court decided to just throw copyright law out the window and let someone steal from WotC, but that seems so unlikely that it's just silly to consider. Why would a court not maintain WotC's copyright? That's just like saying, yeah, murder's illegal, but a court might let someone get away with it... so yeah, it's fine.
I think you need to do more research before you say completely inaccurate things like this. There's a big difference between a patent (which in this case is probably around core concepts/rules/etc. of a CCG) and copyright which would apply to a ton of stuff on a card (art, text, etc.). Even factoring that out, I don't see how "you can't actually call them fake cards" applies here. The financial value of a lot of cards is determined based upon what WotC deems legal in tournaments. Just because proxies (which would basically be what these are) would be allowed to be printed and sold (again, ignoring copyright), doesn't mean WotC is forced to allow those cards to be legal. Sure, other places could make them legal in their own tournaments, but that's basically the exact same scenario with proxy cards in general even in today's world.
Yeah, I guess it depends on the board wipe. If played post-board-wipe, is it really reasonable to expect the two cards from a thoughtcast (if you can even play it after a board wipe) to push you through? Seems like DC isn't necessarily worse after a wipe as it'll give you boosts every turn instead of a one time shot (and can potentially add a little bit of damage itself). Pernicious Deed is definitely a problem the sideboard probably should have an answer to, but I think deed or similar is a problem for any affinity deck.
I tested with 3 SFMs, but given the importance of plating, I upped it to 4 to make it even more likely that I can get one. Plus, dropping multiple platings on the board rarely turned out to be bad and makes the loss of one plating not as big of a deal. That said, I'm not sure 4 is a must. I would prefer them in the main over dispatch though as many times I'd prefer a cranial over removing a creature (with 10+ evasive creatures, usually you just blow past their guy).
Yep, exactly. Even thought Batterskull is often the equipment fetched with SFM in other decks, I find that I only really end up getting it if I land a T1 SFM (not super often, but a hand of SFM, mox, art land, and 0 drop is not unheard of given the number of art lands and 0 drops) or I really need another body on the board for some reason. It sucks when you can't find a card that scales with the number of artifacts you have and SFMs make that much less likely and has the added bonus of being able to sidestep countermagic by "vialing" it in.
I'm not completely sold on Thoughtcast being taken out for Dark Confidant and I can see why some people might go the other way, but I feel DCs help us much more should the game extend into midgame. What I like about my list is the number of "must answer" cards that can hit the board. Replacing the TCs with DCs add yet another creature on the board that the opponent will not want to let stay around and if they choose to kill a DC or a SFM, that means it's less likely they kill an Etched, MoE, Vault Skirge, etc.
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Glimmervoid
4 Ancient Den
2 Darksteel Citadel
Creatures
2 Etched Champion
3 Master of Etherium
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Vault Skirge
4 Dark Confidant
4 Frogmite
4 Mox Opal
4 Cranial Plating
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Springleaf Drum
1 Batterskull
I find that it's just as fast as many other builds, but more consistently finds a plating due to the SFMs, which is pretty crucial in getting quick kills. I might change up the Etched/MoE/Frogmite numbers in order to add one more Etched.
I decided to add Dark Confidants instead of Thoughtcast as I found that TCs led to possible explosive starts but then you could quickly run out of steam. The confidants give you continued card advantage and add another "must answer" creature to the board. Went with vault skirges instead of signal pests because the life gain is pretty awesome and makes the drawback of the confidants non-existent. A turn 1 confidant or SFM (leading into turn 2 Batterskull) is pretty brutal and happens fairly often.
MoE + SFM + Platings + Tezz = 14 cards that lead to something that scales with the number of artifacts you have.