Looking at mtggoldfish metagame analysis, looking at the top 16 decks, JTMS is played in 10% of the metagame in legacy and 16% in modern. If by better, you mean sees more play, then it's definitely modern.
Two things jump out at me; Meddling Mage and the black sideboard plan.
Meddling Mage is not going to be at it's best in a deck with only 3 other creatures. Your opponent's removal is going to be rotting in hand and as soon as you name a key spell they are going to be able to kill your meddling Mage. Since it gains no value on entering the battlefield, this will always be a bad trade for you. Additionally, it plays really poorly with supreme verdict.
With regard to the black sideboard plan, you simply don't have enough black sources to reliably cast inquisition or fatal push. I counted 7 sources (4 flooded strand, 2 watery grave and 1 godless shrine). You really want 14 sources to reliably cast these spells early in the game.
The only other thing that really sticks out to me is Mishra's bauble; even without bauble you already have more cantrips and lands that most other lists are playing. This is going to lead to a lot of games where you are flooding or just spinning your wheels. You might want to consider some more 'action' spells in that slot.
Hello, just wondering if 2 monastery mentor in the sb is necessary since the banning of the Hogaak deck. I'm running two Resto Angels in the spot where the mentors would be. What matchups would I be boarding them in besides humans?
They aren't match dependent; bring them in whenever they are better than your 59th and 60th card. A lot of times that's going to be surgical extraction, verdict, spell pierce/snare etc.
I was watching a discussion about it on the UWx Control FB group and a lot of players were basically saying that they don't need to use it as a wincon anymore and a lot of players view it most to threaten blocks. If that's the case, which it normally is for myself as well, would we be well suited to include a couple copies of Stirring Wildwood?. It costs a couple less mana to activate, which means it's much easier to utilize as a blocker. The obvious trade off is that it's not nearly as effective as closing out the game, but as mentioned, that doesn't seem to be super important to UWx anymore now with all the walkers, and especially true of us since we play a few more creatures. The bigger draw back in my mind, but maybe a little more subtle, is that it can't presure planeswalkers as effectively if the opponent has ground creatures. You guys think that is a major concern?
Interesting build, heavily focused on the Narset/Box combo. I wonder if not having snaps because of RIP in the main means you have to have the combo or risk running out of action/threats.
My only gripe with his list is Astrolabe and On Thin Ice. They both have been so bad in my testing. OTI leads to tooany blow outs. Astrolabe is ok, but as a 1 of I don't think it helps turn on Coatl often enough to justify running it over Heiroglyphic Illumination.
I think Growth Spiral might be too high variance - I don't think the issue is that you need big mana sinks for it; Spiral into path on turn 2 Jace on turn 3 is lights outs vs basically everyone. When you can cast it on curve, and use the mana it feels like instant speed time walk. However, this is balanced out because when you cast it on turn 6+ it's just a 2 mana cycler. I think playing 1 might be fine, kind of like Azcanta - it's just game winning and amazing like 5% of the time or hard to find time to cast it the rest of the time but it's fine. Maybe I'll try cutting the single copy I've been on the last 2 days for the 4th Snapcaster.
Mystic Snake in light of the 'negate' counters is a pretty big deal I guess. Let me know how it goes, I still can't see it being better than Cryptic in a deck with more snapcaster than restoration angel.
We may have enough win conditions over traditional UW control to consider cutting some more colonnade and turning on Coatl more frequently is always good. I don't like going so low on the number of "spell" lands in control decks though. Maybe if we added some number of Arcum's Astrolabe we could consider cutting the celestial Colonnade for Field of Ruin - The colorless of Field of Ruin will be negated by Astrolabe and you are still increasing the number of snow permanents.
Interestingly, I could see a Bant draw-go Thop/Sword list with Coatl; I always use to try to jam Spellstutter Sprite into my Thop/Sword lists as a flash 1/1 to bring back Sword in response to Surgical Extraction type effects. Coatl also helps the transformational/toolbox SB plan of such a deck. What do you think of this as a potential starting point for a list like that?
A lot of Synergy here - Astrolabe helps power out Whir of Invention quicker and turn on Coatl - Coatl returns Sword and gives plays well postboard when you board out the 3 combo pieces. Both Whirs don't need to come out postboard if you bring in some of the artifacts, which makes for a light transformational board (2 sword, 1 foundry, 1 whir out, 2 resto, 1 clique, 1 Teferi in etc).
Karn allows to find half the combo from the sideboard, as well as protects you from having your singelton Foundry exiled from something like Thought Knot Seer or Surgical Extraction.
I think I'm going to take this for a spin, what do you guys think?
The idea in the spoiler doesn't seem to work, I tested it out all day today and last night and it's pretty bad. Just having a single dead card in hand is asking too much in this format because the format is far too fast. The more traditional UW control splash Ice-Fang is far more effective and worth exploring imo.
List looks good. Looks like we converged on the mana.
Blast zone instead of field is certainly interesting and could lead to potentially wanting to cut a copy of winds of abandon which frees up some space in the main. I worry about not being able to turn on Coatl enough though, as Field of Ruin helps with the Snow permanent count.
I know you aren't a fan of a Growth Spiral in theory, but if you haven't tried it I strongly implore you to cut 1 Sleight of Hand for a Growth Spiral just to try it for a bit. Whenever I cast one on turn 2 3 or 4 and use the mana right away it feels like the strongest card in the deck.
What matchup are you expecting for Blessed alliance? And have you considered Gideon's Triumph or are you hoping to ambush people with untapping Coatl?
I have a question about whether Jace the Mind Sculptor is really relevant in the UW build. The latest lists I'm seeing are only using him as a one of. I was thinking about doing a 3 Teferi, Hero of Domination, 3 Narset, Parter of Veils and 1 Teferi, Time Reveler planeswalker split and forgo the Jace. Any opinions on this is really appreciated
Jace is not as necessary as it once was but being a full mana cheaper than Teferi, Hero of Dominaria is a big deal and planeswalkers being legendary means there is no way that Teferi number 3 is better than the first Jace. Jace is very strong and not having at least 1 copy is probably a mistake, although it's probably not a gigantic mistake unless you run the 3rd Teferi HoD in it's place. I think the deck would only be marginally worse if you replaced the first Jace with Fact or Fiction, but it's not something I can recommend other than for budget reasons.
I could be convinced to play an additional copy of FoN in the main, and I could be convinced on surgical and the 2nd growth spiral as not very good. I don't think I can be convinced off timely though - with no other lifegain in the deck it seems necessary. It also pulls double duty against creature decks because of the lack of cheaper sweepers like verdict.
I was watching Nassif run a similar list and he had a really good innovation in regard to the lack of sweepers in the maindeck: Lyra Dawnbringer. He runs 2x Lyra (well 1 lyra and 1 Baneslayer Angel, but I think that's wrong in a Restoration Angel deck) but he also doesn't run any Winds of Abandon. I think I like 2x Wind of Abandon and 1x Lyra, but I don't think you can go too wrong either way. It plays especially well with Growth Spiral, which is a card he chose not to play, but I think a pair of Growth Spiral goes a long way in getting you out ahead of aggro decks. Spiral into any 4 drop other than Fact or Fiction will buy you enough time to deal with a wide board via Angels or Winds of Abandon.
Additionally, I think I solved the Misty/Vista problem - Misty is going to be better if you cut down to 1 forest 1 plains instead of 2 plains 1 forest if you add a temple garden. I don't really like the 3rd shock much because of the life loss, so I cut a Waterlogged Grove as well. I don't think I would go below 3 Grove, it feels like the strongest land in the deck which is saying a lot alongside Colonnade and Field of Ruin.
What do you guys think of a singleton Regrowth in the main? Cutting the planeswalkers wincons down to 2 Jace and 1 Tef5 is a little light, and regrowth can help with that. Would it be better than Snap 3 or 4? I'm not really too sure but Snap can't rebuy Coatls, Angels and Field of Ruins whereas Regrowth can get any card Snap could with the price being sorcery speed and no 2/1 body attached. In normal UW control I would say the body is way more relevant, but between the snakes and angels (kind of a nice deck name, Snakes & Angels) we won't miss the body nearly as much as UW control would. If you guys think it would be good, what would be the cut? 3rd Snap? 4th Path? 2nd Tef3?
You have plenty of time to get to 6 Mana
for Winds of Abandon against just about everything, especially if you play a couple copies of growth spiral. The additional creatures and proactive walkers will keep your opponent's creatures busy enough to buy you time to turn on a winds of Abandon.
In my experience (50 matches or so), with 7 snow basics, 7 fetches and 1-2 field.of ruin, Coatl rarely has death touch on turn 3 because your first fetch usually needs to find a dual. With conscious effort you can turn it on for turn 4 about half the time. Turn 5 is when you can reasonably expect Coatl to be turned on organically.
Despite not being turned on, the lack of defender, having power, and flash are massive advantages over wall of omens; the deck plays majority at instant speed and being able to play creatures during opps eot is a huge advantage when planning how to get your planeswalkers onto the field safely.
As you mentioned, flying is also a huge upside. Being able to block opposing cliques, pheonixes and mantis riders does wonders for the viability of your walkers in some of the most popular matchups.
I think mystic snake is too cute; a little bit of synergy with restoration angel (which I'm convinced is only 1 slot in the main and 1-2 side) isn't enough reason to play a 4 drop that's worse in most situations than cryptic command.
Another reason for running 4x Waterlogged Grove is also because the deck is thirsty for U/G duals, before MH1 I was running 3 Hinterland Harbour.
It could be correct to run a different dual over the 3rd and/or 4th grove (hintetland, Misty, prismatic Vista etc), but they have just been performing so well and flooding seems to be way more of a common problem for me than running out of life points because of painful Mana.
On another note, I think prismatic Vista should occupy some slots over Misty rainforest if you plan on using creatures with white in the cost and you don't want to play Temple garden, like resto. Ive been fiddling with a couple resto in the side and a couple times I had already fetched my hallowed fountain on a turn when I wanted to cast both resto and either a path or a tef3 in the same turn and it it was ugly. Because of running 2 plains and only 1 hallowed, Vista is probably better.
I don't think I would run any other ramp in the deck other than Spiral; those other ramp spells are just dead cards going late and being sorcery speed is not great in a reactive deck.
I don't agree with it being a 'bad' UW control deck. I think it has the potential to be a better UW control deck; Coatl and Waterlogged Grove are excellent cards for the archetype.
If it turns out to be a bad UW control deck, it would be because Field of Ruin is better than Waterlogged Grove or that 7 fetch lands is much worse than 5. I'm not convinced of either of those things.
I don't understand? Your opponent dragging out the game will not effect how much time you have on your clock.
On MTGO both players have separate clocks, focus on making sure you use your own time effectively. If your opponent drags out the game it can only effect them, not you.
Looking at mtggoldfish metagame analysis, looking at the top 16 decks, JTMS is played in 10% of the metagame in legacy and 16% in modern. If by better, you mean sees more play, then it's definitely modern.
Two things jump out at me; Meddling Mage and the black sideboard plan.
Meddling Mage is not going to be at it's best in a deck with only 3 other creatures. Your opponent's removal is going to be rotting in hand and as soon as you name a key spell they are going to be able to kill your meddling Mage. Since it gains no value on entering the battlefield, this will always be a bad trade for you. Additionally, it plays really poorly with supreme verdict.
With regard to the black sideboard plan, you simply don't have enough black sources to reliably cast inquisition or fatal push. I counted 7 sources (4 flooded strand, 2 watery grave and 1 godless shrine). You really want 14 sources to reliably cast these spells early in the game.
The only other thing that really sticks out to me is Mishra's bauble; even without bauble you already have more cantrips and lands that most other lists are playing. This is going to lead to a lot of games where you are flooding or just spinning your wheels. You might want to consider some more 'action' spells in that slot.
They aren't match dependent; bring them in whenever they are better than your 59th and 60th card. A lot of times that's going to be surgical extraction, verdict, spell pierce/snare etc.
I was watching a discussion about it on the UWx Control FB group and a lot of players were basically saying that they don't need to use it as a wincon anymore and a lot of players view it most to threaten blocks. If that's the case, which it normally is for myself as well, would we be well suited to include a couple copies of Stirring Wildwood?. It costs a couple less mana to activate, which means it's much easier to utilize as a blocker. The obvious trade off is that it's not nearly as effective as closing out the game, but as mentioned, that doesn't seem to be super important to UWx anymore now with all the walkers, and especially true of us since we play a few more creatures. The bigger draw back in my mind, but maybe a little more subtle, is that it can't presure planeswalkers as effectively if the opponent has ground creatures. You guys think that is a major concern?
How did you feel about the mana? Blast zone over Field and 3x waterlogged grove?
My only gripe with his list is Astrolabe and On Thin Ice. They both have been so bad in my testing. OTI leads to tooany blow outs. Astrolabe is ok, but as a 1 of I don't think it helps turn on Coatl often enough to justify running it over Heiroglyphic Illumination.
I think Growth Spiral might be too high variance - I don't think the issue is that you need big mana sinks for it; Spiral into path on turn 2 Jace on turn 3 is lights outs vs basically everyone. When you can cast it on curve, and use the mana it feels like instant speed time walk. However, this is balanced out because when you cast it on turn 6+ it's just a 2 mana cycler. I think playing 1 might be fine, kind of like Azcanta - it's just game winning and amazing like 5% of the time or hard to find time to cast it the rest of the time but it's fine. Maybe I'll try cutting the single copy I've been on the last 2 days for the 4th Snapcaster.
Here's what I'll be on tomorrow:
3 Waterlogged Grove
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Field of Ruin
1 Blast Zone
5 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
Consistenty (5)
4 Opt
1 Hieroglyphic illumination
Removal (6)
4 Path to Exile
1 Oust
1 Winds of Abandon
3 Force of Negation
1 Spell Snare
1 Logic Knot
2 Cryptic Command
Creatures (11)
4 Coatl
4 Snapcaster
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Restoration Angel
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
Planeswalkers (5)
1 Narset
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Teferi, hero of Dominaria
Other (1)
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Celestial Purge
1 Restoration Angel
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dovin's Veto
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Engineered Explosives
We may have enough win conditions over traditional UW control to consider cutting some more colonnade and turning on Coatl more frequently is always good. I don't like going so low on the number of "spell" lands in control decks though. Maybe if we added some number of Arcum's Astrolabe we could consider cutting the celestial Colonnade for Field of Ruin - The colorless of Field of Ruin will be negated by Astrolabe and you are still increasing the number of snow permanents.
3 Field of Ruin
3 Waterlogged Grove
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
5 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-covered Forest
Planeswalkers (5)
1 Narset, Parter of veils
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn, the Great Creator
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
4 Path to Exile
1 Detention Sphere
Counters (8)
1 Logic Knot
2 Remand
4 Force of Negation
1 Cryptic Command
Consistency (11)
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
3 Opt
1 glittering wish
1 Thirst For Knowledge
2 Whir of Invention
Creatures (4)
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
Combo (3)
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Dovin's Veto
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Detention Sphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Restoration Angel
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Celestial Purge
A lot of Synergy here - Astrolabe helps power out Whir of Invention quicker and turn on Coatl - Coatl returns Sword and gives plays well postboard when you board out the 3 combo pieces. Both Whirs don't need to come out postboard if you bring in some of the artifacts, which makes for a light transformational board (2 sword, 1 foundry, 1 whir out, 2 resto, 1 clique, 1 Teferi in etc).
Karn allows to find half the combo from the sideboard, as well as protects you from having your singelton Foundry exiled from something like Thought Knot Seer or Surgical Extraction.
I think I'm going to take this for a spin, what do you guys think?
The idea in the spoiler doesn't seem to work, I tested it out all day today and last night and it's pretty bad. Just having a single dead card in hand is asking too much in this format because the format is far too fast. The more traditional UW control splash Ice-Fang is far more effective and worth exploring imo.
Blast zone instead of field is certainly interesting and could lead to potentially wanting to cut a copy of winds of abandon which frees up some space in the main. I worry about not being able to turn on Coatl enough though, as Field of Ruin helps with the Snow permanent count.
I know you aren't a fan of a Growth Spiral in theory, but if you haven't tried it I strongly implore you to cut 1 Sleight of Hand for a Growth Spiral just to try it for a bit. Whenever I cast one on turn 2 3 or 4 and use the mana right away it feels like the strongest card in the deck.
What matchup are you expecting for Blessed alliance? And have you considered Gideon's Triumph or are you hoping to ambush people with untapping Coatl?
Jace is not as necessary as it once was but being a full mana cheaper than Teferi, Hero of Dominaria is a big deal and planeswalkers being legendary means there is no way that Teferi number 3 is better than the first Jace. Jace is very strong and not having at least 1 copy is probably a mistake, although it's probably not a gigantic mistake unless you run the 3rd Teferi HoD in it's place. I think the deck would only be marginally worse if you replaced the first Jace with Fact or Fiction, but it's not something I can recommend other than for budget reasons.
What do you think of Regrowth?
2 Field of Ruin
2 Celestial Colonnade
3 Waterlogged Grove
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
5 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-covered Forest
Planeswalkers (5)
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
4 Path to Exile
2 Winds of Abandon
Counters (5)
1 Logic Knot
2 Force of Negation
2 Cryptic Command
Consistency (7)
4 Opt
2 Growth Spiral
1 Heiroglyphic Illumination
Creatures (11)
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Restoration Angel
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
Other (2)
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Celestial Purge
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Rest In Peace
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Force of Negation
1 Dovin's Veto
1 Dispel
1 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
Additionally, I think I solved the Misty/Vista problem - Misty is going to be better if you cut down to 1 forest 1 plains instead of 2 plains 1 forest if you add a temple garden. I don't really like the 3rd shock much because of the life loss, so I cut a Waterlogged Grove as well. I don't think I would go below 3 Grove, it feels like the strongest land in the deck which is saying a lot alongside Colonnade and Field of Ruin.
What do you guys think of a singleton Regrowth in the main? Cutting the planeswalkers wincons down to 2 Jace and 1 Tef5 is a little light, and regrowth can help with that. Would it be better than Snap 3 or 4? I'm not really too sure but Snap can't rebuy Coatls, Angels and Field of Ruins whereas Regrowth can get any card Snap could with the price being sorcery speed and no 2/1 body attached. In normal UW control I would say the body is way more relevant, but between the snakes and angels (kind of a nice deck name, Snakes & Angels) we won't miss the body nearly as much as UW control would. If you guys think it would be good, what would be the cut? 3rd Snap? 4th Path? 2nd Tef3?
for Winds of Abandon against just about everything, especially if you play a couple copies of growth spiral. The additional creatures and proactive walkers will keep your opponent's creatures busy enough to buy you time to turn on a winds of Abandon.
In my experience (50 matches or so), with 7 snow basics, 7 fetches and 1-2 field.of ruin, Coatl rarely has death touch on turn 3 because your first fetch usually needs to find a dual. With conscious effort you can turn it on for turn 4 about half the time. Turn 5 is when you can reasonably expect Coatl to be turned on organically.
Despite not being turned on, the lack of defender, having power, and flash are massive advantages over wall of omens; the deck plays majority at instant speed and being able to play creatures during opps eot is a huge advantage when planning how to get your planeswalkers onto the field safely.
As you mentioned, flying is also a huge upside. Being able to block opposing cliques, pheonixes and mantis riders does wonders for the viability of your walkers in some of the most popular matchups.
I think mystic snake is too cute; a little bit of synergy with restoration angel (which I'm convinced is only 1 slot in the main and 1-2 side) isn't enough reason to play a 4 drop that's worse in most situations than cryptic command.
It could be correct to run a different dual over the 3rd and/or 4th grove (hintetland, Misty, prismatic Vista etc), but they have just been performing so well and flooding seems to be way more of a common problem for me than running out of life points because of painful Mana.
On another note, I think prismatic Vista should occupy some slots over Misty rainforest if you plan on using creatures with white in the cost and you don't want to play Temple garden, like resto. Ive been fiddling with a couple resto in the side and a couple times I had already fetched my hallowed fountain on a turn when I wanted to cast both resto and either a path or a tef3 in the same turn and it it was ugly. Because of running 2 plains and only 1 hallowed, Vista is probably better.
I don't agree with it being a 'bad' UW control deck. I think it has the potential to be a better UW control deck; Coatl and Waterlogged Grove are excellent cards for the archetype.
If it turns out to be a bad UW control deck, it would be because Field of Ruin is better than Waterlogged Grove or that 7 fetch lands is much worse than 5. I'm not convinced of either of those things.
On MTGO both players have separate clocks, focus on making sure you use your own time effectively. If your opponent drags out the game it can only effect them, not you.