• posted a message on [[Official]] Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    I don't think Narset needs a ban.

    It's not that she isn't stupid - she is - it's that everyone realizes that she's stupid, and fairly quickly on. While someone may build her expecting it to be cool, and then realizes that she accidentally breaks the game in half, it happens very quickly.

    Much like others in the thread, my Meta has/had two Narset decks. One player made Narset, realized she was dumb, then intentionally made the deck bad. Now it's still dumb, but kind of funny while doing it. The other player saw the transition of the first Narset deck, built one himself, and took it in the opposite direction. It's his more serious race-to-combo deck.

    But the common denominator in there is that while Narset accidentally breaks the casual kitchen game, she does it in such a spectacularly obvious way that everyone realizes it very quickly.


    Maybe a ban could be useful so new players don't waste the time building her to play her for just a week... but I think that just about anybody could tell them ahead of time "That's not a good idea," and even if they don't, accidental first build Narsets don't break the games in a really 'feel bad' way. It's an interesting self-discovery thing to watch, and it usually seems to fix itself very quickly.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[SCD]] Random Card of the Day (6/3) - Hurricane
    Ryusei is male.
    Jugan is male.
    Yosei is male.
    Kokusho is male.
    Keiga is female. (based off our lovely wiki)


    Anywho, actually ran Jugan in a Riku deck pre-legend-clone-change in order to dump 10 +1/+1 counters on Riku. I'm sure there are more effective ways to do that, but the deck was all about using legendary shenanigans with Riku. Ryusei however, didn't make it... Don't remember why. Probably because he would kill Riku.

    Today, in Riku Jugan is still interesting to either buff up riku +5, or to have a 10/10 flyer. It's just kind of going 'ha ha' to your opponents. Kind of like running a Brothers Yamazaki in riku. Surprise!
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[SCD]] Random Card of the Day (6/3) - Hurricane
    I'm just sad that this guy isn't legendary.

    Not that I'd play him myself, but the option should have been there.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Underrated and Underplayed Generals
    Quote from Doplgangr »
    I run Tymaret, the Murder King, and am consistently surprising people with the utility and efficiency of the card - don't let the scale fool you, he has a tremendous amount of utility, and he never really has to go back to the command zone.
    Chainer Dementia master is criminally underplayed in my experience. read those abilities again. just, holy ****.
    wort the raidmother has the potential to be as oppressive and effective as Riku in the right build. I honestly think she's in contention for the most powerful RG commander available, and yet i've never seen anyone other than me run her either as general or in the 99. sad.


    Tymaret is hilarious with Necromancer's Stockpile.

    I don't think Chainer is under-rated (though it may be because I play him, and my group is well acquainted with him), he's an insane powerhouse, and everyone at the table knows he's a threat. He's almost the go-to reanimation general. However, Balthor, the defiled is quite criminally underplayed. He's pretty much the entire Xiahou Dun+Living death combo, in your command zone. His explosive potential and his combo potential are both highly underestimated.

    Wort is actually more explosive than Riku, due to not having the reliance on the extra mana cost for the copy effects. This allows her to really power out spells just a little bit faster than Riku.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[SCD]] Random Card of the Day (6/3) - Hurricane
    Quote from TheDrB »
    This is an auto-include for me in any white deck that wants to attack. Vigilance for all your creatures, being able to attack with EVERYTHING, every turn, even nerfing the odd conditional spell that relies on attacking status (i.e. Condemn) makes this pretty silly for 1 mana.

    This is practically an auto include in white decks even if they don't want to attack, since it lets you send out everything anyways, and not care. This card is nothing short of fantastic.

    Also fantastic with First Strike, to add damage onto things then pull back before getting hit back.

    It's also excellent when paired with vigilance, in order to re-use tap effects. Hi there Tariel, Reckoner of Souls...
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Underrated and Underplayed Generals
    Quote from schweinefett »
    Verdeloth the Ancient is another good one; our group just got owned by it recently. it just ramps hard, puts a couple of anthem effects, and casts with a crazy high number of kicker, and if we kill it, the guy just recasts it for a slightly lower kicker (though that might've just been a dumb play on our part). in fact, i think verdeloth could be more powerful than omnath in terms of pure ramp strategy generals.

    the guy's an army in a can, but on steroids.


    This seems actually very powerful. With Overrun and Triumph of the Hordes effects it can be a very deadly deck. Are there other haste enablers aside from Akroma's Memorial and Winding Canyons?


    Concordant Crossroads, Vedalken Orrery, Yeva, Nature's Herald.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    Quote from Ulka »
    ya know as important as MaRo is at times I really hate how people just take his word for law when it comes to magic. I mean sure he may helped make magic what it is today but honestly he is just one man with opinions just like the rest of us... So please don't base your opinion of stuff that should or shouldn't happen in magic of his opinion as the only thing. Sorry, I get frustrated when people just quote him for why something should or shouldn't exist.


    He may be one man with an opinion, but he has a proven track record of success, and proven that his opinion is generally healthy for the game - both financially, and in terms of generally maintaining a fun, healthy, and diverse and interesting game. While there are a number of things of his that I disagree with, and others that I wish were another way (though honestly probably shouldn't be), I have to give the man mad respect for not only keeping the crazy ideas people come up with in line, but for resolutely defending the points of this game that make it what it is, and stepping out and giving explanations to the rest of us that question it.

    ===

    When it comes down to it, very few people in these forums - or anywhere else - have his experience and knowledge both on magic, game design, and game design as it relates to magic. While I won't take his word at gospel, you better be sure that if he says something about magic or game design, I might give pause and think that maybe he's got a little bit more thought on it than most other folk.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    Quote from Lithl »
    Quote from Life1ess »
    Quote from Lithl »
    Triumph of the Hordes is an overrun (and the infect is often irrelevant)

    I think your definition of "often" differs greatly from mine.
    I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen Triumph of the Hordes cast, the caster win the game that turn, and that combat not deal enough damage to where the infect part mattered more than the buff and trample.
    I'll one up this and add that the number of times that triumph does squeak in with enough infect but not enough regular damage for the kill, that an overrun or Overwhelming Stampede would not have done just as well and made people just as equally dead.

    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    Quote from umfta »
    Well I definitely fail to see the "very basic" mathematics here. You stated three reasons why infect creatures would have diminished effectivity in multiplayer environment (which I don't completely agree with). Yes, they sure have diminished effectivity since probably the infect player won't get any help from other creatures on the table to knock down enemies so he has to do all the work by him self. This is why I maybe agree that that infect "kill limit" shouldn't be doubled but only increased by some degree. Maybe to 15. But I just don't understand why infect "kill limit" shouldn't be increased at all due the multiplayer environment where those normal damage dealers will have to face maybe 6 times (a pod of four) the life points they would face in 1v1-situation whereas the infect damage dealers face only 3 times the damage they should deal with in 1v1-situation.

    The first point you made can be denied by replacing "poison/infect" with "combat damage": "First off, combat damage is worse in multiplayer than 1v1, because you don't win the game when you get someone to zero life points. You have to do that to each opponent to win."


    Except, that a combat damage dealer doesn't have to do 6x the damage. Other people are in this game. Other people will be doing combat damage, or other damage, or life loss, or burning their own life totals for resources. The same is not necessarily true for poison counters. In general, if everyone is dealing damage to each other about equally, you'll only need to end up accounting for one opponent's amount of life.

    This means that you'll need to do 2x 'regular' magic damage to win (barring lifelinky stuff that makes it go up, and those commander voltron decks, which makes it go down), while infecters need to do 3x.

    Furthermore, the quality of non-infect damage is far greater than the quality of infect damage. My Heliod deck makes tons of 2/1 tokens, such that I can have 20-40 damage on the board, getting even half of that in infect damage is extremely difficult in raw creature power, short of triumph of the hordes, which, face it, isn't an infect win, it's an overrun style win. That investment in creature power in an infect deck requires a lot of commitment to boardstate, more so than my token deck, which makes you fragile.

    Quote from umfta »
    Second point doesn't make sense to me either. The cost ratio is what it is because infect is just faster way to kill an enemy. I don't see what this has to do with multiplayer environment. Let's say we have 2-cmc beater with 3 power and a 2-cmc 1/1 with infect on an EDH-table. Which one is more frightening? I'd say the latter while in 1v1-game the 3 power dude actually threatens to kill the enemy faster than the infect guy (theoretically).


    While this is a valid point to a race scenario, it means that your creatures do not trade effectively against opposing boardstates, and since there are now 3 opposing boardstates, it places you at a disadvantage of being the table's punching bag.

    Quote from umfta »
    Third point; First, is there any particular reason why infect should be a viable strategy? There are quite many strategies which are not viable in commander.
    Is there any reason why a rule should be created to specifically excise a strategy? If something ends up not being viable by coincidence, I have no issue with that, but purposefully creating a rule to excise a strategy for no purpose? That sounds odd...

    Quote from umfta »
    Second, there still is a reason to go infect because doing 20 damage can be easier task with multiple creatures than with one creature. Gotta give it to you that at the moment building a 100 card singleton deck with enough infect beaters can be quite much impossible with current card pool.

    Same can be said of regular combat damage... where you already have multiple creatures from multiple people.

    Quote from umfta »
    My point is basically; all the damage dealing creatures are nerfed dramatically when we move to multiplayer environment. Yes, infect creatures usually don't get help from rest of the table so maybe they deserve some advantage. But atm the in a pod of four player they face only 3 x more life points whereas "normal beater" faces 6 x the usual 20 life points. So do they really deserve this much advantage? Another point, I think it's little bit against this spirit of EDH to be able to drop one player from the game so easily with only 10 poison counters.


    And I still disagree with your math. If your playing infect, you're going uphill all on your own, everyone else is smashing regular lifetotals down, that you never need to do the full amount of regular damage in EDH. You're trying to set up a straight comparison between the two, but that simply does not logically apply in the situation. For the next few games you play, write down how much damage you do to other players, and how much damage other players do to each other, and find out what percent that it.


    ===


    Infect as a full on strategy is really not very powerful in EDH, otherwise there would be a lot more of them. What infect ends up doing is finishing of a hapless player or two via certain finisher cards like Inkmoth Nexus. I don't see it as being a very problematic strategy. Honestly, the top four are probably:
    • Skittles as Commander - Other commanders just as easily 1 or 2 shot players via Commander damage just as easily, or even more easily.
    • Triumph of the Hordes - This is an overrun win, not an infect win. There is a massive propensity of other overrun effects that would work equally well in any situation this card is in.
    • Inkmoth Nexus - Taking advantage of equipment/voltron aspects as an alt-win post-wrath. - probably the most 'feel-bad' situation, but really ends up adding more of an interesting dynamic/math to games and when to wrath
    • One shot spells to make a big creature a 1-hit wonder. - are we going to be upset at Berserk and Hatred next? Things make other things big and scary, sometimes at instant speed...
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [Offtopic] Community Thread
    can't they just take the damage from casting helix, bounce your guy, then cast something else to untap and go off? Doesn't seem like a solid hose.



    EDIT:
    Now I remember why I don't go into the BL thread...
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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