Thanks Yuji. One thing I forgot to mention in my previous response was that blood knight is, indeed, sometimes completely awesome. Blood knight has come in and out of my list, depending on the presence of white (unsurprisingly).
My meta has a lot of "fast fat" like anafenza, rafiq, titania (fast fat ish), plus "fast midrange" like breya and other 4 color commanders, some boros/zoo/rakdos/WW "semi sligh" decks, and then of course the usual smattering of blue decks like geist, jenara, clique, and jace. There is a fair bit of diversity.
You're prob right on the ankh, and with the rise of 4c commanders magus of the moon keeps looking better and better.
At your insistence, I will put in a smoggler's copter for a little while. My problem is that, instead of driving it with zurgo, you could just be swinging with zurgo. So you're basically getting 1 extra damage out of a 2cc spell. The loot effect can incrementally add up to more over time of course, but the immediate impact(which generally the most important for monored) is basically 1 extra damage. Stormblood berserker is better. But to be fair that's not saying much, stormblood is amazing.
When I refer to "tempo," I basically mean what you're saying, the ability to race. I mean using mana as efficiently as possible, which usually means emptying the hand asap. Maybe I'm using the term "tempo" incorrectly. To me you want to use your cards as efficiently as possible ("card advantage") and you also want to spend your mana as efficiently as possible ("tempo"). If I spend 3 mana and my opponent spends 2, the opponent is winning the tempo war. As the efficient monored deck, I should always be winning the tempo war (I basically concede the card-advantage war, deciding not to care about it in favor of just reducing their life total to 0). If I lose tempo battles too often, I start getting into the mid-game, where opposing spells can just outclass me, and can pull my opponent out of the hole I dug for them. TL;DR I agree that our forte is racing asap and I think the best way to do that is to run more 1cc spells instead of 3cc/4cc spells.
Your list is solid and very efficient, but I think it's a little too efficient, and you can tweak it a bit to hit way harder and still retain speed. Here are my feedback and recommendations and sorry for the long read (3drinks is used to this I tend to do this a lot at the Kaalia forum LOL):
1.) I've tested a lot of the creatures you're currently using, and I've come to the conclusion that 2 power with haste is much more important than 3 power without. It's why I cut war-name aspirant, stormblood berserker, borderland marauder and gore-house chainwalker for cards like speedway fanatic, hell's thunder and chandra's phoenix. The oversimplified math behind it goes like this.. Let's compare borderland marauder and speedway fanatic. In a removal-heavy meta, let's assume they live for an average of 2 turns. In that average, marauder gets to swing once, dealing 3, while fanatic gets to swing twice, dealing 4. But the difference becomes glaring if they live for only 1 turn, because in that scenario the marauder doesn't even get to swing, and a card that just baits removal is useless in a deck that only cares about damage. This kind of math is why I think Lathnu Hellion is so good. Also, Haste + evasion is well worth the extra 1 mana, because if they have a higher chance of dealing around 4-6 damage before they get removed. I guess the only non-hasty creatures that get a pass from me are the ones that can do things even without swinging like eidolon, zo-zu and well I'm on the fence with Grenzo. I'd also replace torch fiend/reckless reveler with smash to smithereens, you won't regret it. Since we're talking creatures, surprisingly, blood knight has been very relevant. It can block doran and geist forever and that in itself is hilarious. Magus of the moon used to be a meta call, but to me he's a staple. It just shuts too many decks down, and with a 2/2 body, makes more sense than blood moon.
There is no doubt that 2/2 with haste is better than 3/2 without haste, and as such I am running all the 2/2 haste creatures. But a 2/1 is different than a 2/2. A 2/1 dies to all kinds of 1/X creatures. I'm not sold on speedway fanatic. I cannot agree with ever cutting stormblood berserker. Menace is a very relevant form of evasion. A 3/3 for 1R that is difficult to block is an autoinclude.
I lean against the phoenixes, zo-zu, ball lightning, and hell's thunder in this meta, although I've a few or all of these in the deck from time to time. I found that on the play they were often fast enough, but on the draw they were usually too slow. By turn 3 there is usually something relevant on the other side of the board (or in their hand), and spending the whole turn getting countered/removal is often a tempo drain. I also like magus of the moon, might try it out. Even multicolor decks have various moxen and signets to get colored mana though.
The reckless reveler and torch fiend were actually mistakenly in the previous list. I'm using hellspark elemental and abbot of keral keep in those slots now:
Actually the reckless reveler and torch fiend in the prior list were errors. Should have been hellspark elemental and abbott of keral keep.
But if Breya and other art decks continue to proliferate I will definitely play Smash to Smithereens.
Quote from "yujipooji" »
2.) If you're already running cards like galvanic blast, shock and tarfire, I think that's when you're running a bit too much burn. Doing the math, max 2 damage from one card is a bit low. With exception of course to magma jet, coz the scry is so good, and I also give forked bolt and arc trail a pass for the flexibility.
Damage per mana is at least as relevant as damage per card. If you lose the game with cards in your hand, then you lost the damage per mana battle. I found that happening with some frequency.
Further, the shocks are exceptionally efficient removal for mana dorks, snapcasters, or even bigger stuff (after it blocks).
Quote from "yujipooji" »
3.) The "quality" of the burn also matters. I ran a burn lineup similar to yours, with mizzium mortars and roast, and with our "count to 20 as fast as you can" mentality, I always wished that roast or mortar could hit people in the face. Flame rift and Lava spike need a spot for sure. And believe me I get why you run these "high damage but only to creatures" spells. I even ran combust coz doran scared the crap out of me. I mean a 5/5 at turn 2.. damn. But when I stopped giving a crap about the board and more about life totals, I started winning a whole lot more. Just burn the dorks to slow them down a bit, but ignore the fatties, throw all the burn to their faces, and you'll be shocked at how often you can outrace them.
I don't run roast, and mizzium mortars is arguable because it costs 2 mana, but I would never cut flame slash. Flame slash is an incredibly efficient way to deal with some fast fat, which allows you to get in a lot more damage with your creatures.
The creature-only removal indirectly deals damage to their face by letting your dorks get through. And this meta is full of blockers.
Quote from "yujipooji" »
4.) Creature pump is good, but unnecessary with all the good burn. titan's strength i guess for the scry..? But even then.. I think those spots would do better being filled in by other things, which leads me to my next point.
Yeah, the pump spells are still experimental right now. They are often very efficient 3 damage for 1 mana I must say, which is often awesome.
Quote from "yujipooji" »
5.) "Punisher" cards like ankh of mishra, zo-zu the punisher, and scab-clan berserker are too good to pass up, especially since with the former 2 you can watch titania self-destruct, and tricolor decks that rely on fetching to choose between screwing themselves or killing themselves.
I think zo-zu and scab-clan aren't worth it at 3 mana, in this faster meta. I may put ankh of mishra back in.
Quote from "yujipooji" »
6.) Browbeat. With a burn heavy list, an opponent is choosing between immediate 5 damage, or 6-10 damage over a few turns. Since you run pyrokinesis, the extra draw matters.
7.) Thunderous wrath. Just having this floating around your deck already makes it more lethal.
8.) Ball lightning please. 6 for 3. Only time it's dead is against doran.
Browbeat might be okay in a burn-heavy list. 3 Mana for 5 damage at sorcery speed is solid, but not amazing. The 3 cards only matter if you actually get around to mostly emptying your hand, which you're not going to do unless you have lots of 1cc spells.
Ball lightning is often a huge tempo drain. I also sometimes don't have the RRR b/c of the manlands, wasteland, tec edge, etc, which can be very painful.
I don't like thunderous wrath. More likely to have it in my opening hand, or to draw it on the first turn or two when I'd rather be dropping a beater, than to draw it.
Quote from "yujipooji" »
9.) You can live with 37 lands. I mean you're not even running as much 4 drops as most lists out there like koth or blistering firecat.. So if they're doing fine with 37 I'm sure you would too.
One reason I have a little more land than I need is because I have lands that I expect to sacrifice or turn into a manland. Or it comes into play tapped, and I need to make sure I have a critical mass of lands that come into play untapped, for tempo reasons. All that said, 37 lands is not outrageous.
Quote from "yujipooji" »
10.) Smuggler's copter is better than it looks, and boy did it already look good to begin with. The ability to filter your hand is really good, but people tend to overlook the fact that usually looting makes you discard a card first before drawing, but with copter you get to draw first. That matters. Throw in the 3/3 evasion, AND it's ability to dodge sorcery-speed removal and sweepers? All for 2 colorless..? Try it.
But I have a creature-light build, and this is a removal-heavy meta. Gonna be dead a fair bit of the time.
Quote from "yujipooji" »
11.) Tangle wire's been very good to me. When drawn early game it can get you over without interruptions. It has a downside of not being able to deal damage when drawn late game though.
Tangle wire is amazing, except that other decks develop their board so fast now that I can't guarantee that I will be ahead enough to cast it for value. The meta has just gotten so much faster.
I'm currently running a list with 25 creatures, 31 burn, skullclamp, koth, sulfuric vortex, copter, tangle wire and ankh of mishra and 37 lands and it has me undefeated over here against decks like saskia, geist, doran and grixis vial/kraum. And to think this is after I lost my fireblast a few months back and never getting to miracle thunderous wrath.. I guess I'm doing something right.
The thing I noticed is that against fellow aggro or any creature decks that can stonewall monoR's weenies, burn to the face becomes the main way to kill. Against control decks, 25 creatures ranging from 1-3cmc most with haste has been more than they can handle. I might actually try to trim the creature count down to 22 and make way for more direct-damage burn. I noticed that the meta has adjusted to aggro by adding more sweepers, spot removal or creatures, but very few have adjusted by adding ways to gain life. This might be why adding burn has turned my 50-50 matchups into blowouts. Anyway my point is after months of testing I find that my current ratio is way better than when I was playing with 30+ creatures. Just wanted to throw this out there.
Just to add: Browbeat has been a beast. When you cast it when they're below 15 life , they will more often than not let you draw 3 (i guess psychologically sht gets real when life is down to single digits). Then I usually empty my hand and kill them in the next 1-2 turns. It's a nice set play of sorts.
I wholeheartedly agree with the burn-heavy approach. My current list actually has only 18 creatures. And that includes Lathnu Hellion, Vexing Devil, Keldon Marauders, and Hellspark Elemental.
I'm also not crazy about lava spike or bump in the night. I like brute force because it's one of the few ways to destroy sylvan caryatid, it's useful for destroying larger creatures in general, it saves creatures, and I don't need any of that it's still 3 damage for 1 mana. It's not as good as bolt in general, but in the right meta it's close
Maybe it's because I play more creatures, some heavier threats, that I don't need as many then? Idk. If you need more though, I think you might prefer adding B for Tymaret instead so you can play Bump in the Night and Tyrant's Choice. Plus, having a commander that threatens more reach.
Maybe it's because I play more creatures, some heavier threats, that I don't need as many then? Idk. If you need more though, I think you might prefer adding B for Tymaret instead so you can play Bump in the Night and Tyrant's Choice. Plus, having a commander that threatens more reach.
Maybe. I doubt I'll switch to Tymaret. My deck is all about quickly getting ahead on the board, using that lead to bring their life total down quickly, then efficiently burning them out around turn 4. There are a few higher costed cards in there, i.e. fiery confluence, volcanic eruption, flametongue kavu, that can swing a bad board state back around to me in case plan A doesn't quite work.
I'm always being in favor of pump spells (Brute Force, Titan's Strength, Built to Smash), but the people always recommends are to not use them, because they can be a 2-for-1 if the creature gets removed. How they are being working for you?
[EDIT]: Misspelling.
Wait until they're tapped out, or they've already burned a few removal spells, and you generally don't get 241'd. In my experience they've been an excellent way to efficiently deal 3 damage, and occasionally they save a creature from ulcerate/bolt/dismember/etc. Occasionally they are also a useful combat trick.
I didn't used to run them, before the meta changed so much. Back then there was so much more true control that would almost never tap down. It was hard to find a safe opening to use a pump spell. With the proliferation of aggro in the 20 life meta, other decks are tapping down all the time.
It was fun taking advantage of the 20 life metagame before everyone else had adapted. But now that other decks have adapted, I've had to tune my zurgo list quite a bit. There's so much other aggro.
I've been playing this deck for months, several matches a week, and neither flame slash nor mizzium mortars has ever been awkward. Actually they save my ass against other aggro decks.
Until that one game when your opponent is at three life and you rip Flame Slash.
I've been playing this deck for months, several matches a week, and neither flame slash nor mizzium mortars has ever been awkward. Actually they save my ass against other aggro decks.
My meta has a lot of "fast fat" like anafenza, rafiq, titania (fast fat ish), plus "fast midrange" like breya and other 4 color commanders, some boros/zoo/rakdos/WW "semi sligh" decks, and then of course the usual smattering of blue decks like geist, jenara, clique, and jace. There is a fair bit of diversity.
You're prob right on the ankh, and with the rise of 4c commanders magus of the moon keeps looking better and better.
At your insistence, I will put in a smoggler's copter for a little while. My problem is that, instead of driving it with zurgo, you could just be swinging with zurgo. So you're basically getting 1 extra damage out of a 2cc spell. The loot effect can incrementally add up to more over time of course, but the immediate impact(which generally the most important for monored) is basically 1 extra damage. Stormblood berserker is better. But to be fair that's not saying much, stormblood is amazing.
When I refer to "tempo," I basically mean what you're saying, the ability to race. I mean using mana as efficiently as possible, which usually means emptying the hand asap. Maybe I'm using the term "tempo" incorrectly. To me you want to use your cards as efficiently as possible ("card advantage") and you also want to spend your mana as efficiently as possible ("tempo"). If I spend 3 mana and my opponent spends 2, the opponent is winning the tempo war. As the efficient monored deck, I should always be winning the tempo war (I basically concede the card-advantage war, deciding not to care about it in favor of just reducing their life total to 0). If I lose tempo battles too often, I start getting into the mid-game, where opposing spells can just outclass me, and can pull my opponent out of the hole I dug for them. TL;DR I agree that our forte is racing asap and I think the best way to do that is to run more 1cc spells instead of 3cc/4cc spells.
There is no doubt that 2/2 with haste is better than 3/2 without haste, and as such I am running all the 2/2 haste creatures. But a 2/1 is different than a 2/2. A 2/1 dies to all kinds of 1/X creatures. I'm not sold on speedway fanatic. I cannot agree with ever cutting stormblood berserker. Menace is a very relevant form of evasion. A 3/3 for 1R that is difficult to block is an autoinclude.
I lean against the phoenixes, zo-zu, ball lightning, and hell's thunder in this meta, although I've a few or all of these in the deck from time to time. I found that on the play they were often fast enough, but on the draw they were usually too slow. By turn 3 there is usually something relevant on the other side of the board (or in their hand), and spending the whole turn getting countered/removal is often a tempo drain. I also like magus of the moon, might try it out. Even multicolor decks have various moxen and signets to get colored mana though.
The reckless reveler and torch fiend were actually mistakenly in the previous list. I'm using hellspark elemental and abbot of keral keep in those slots now:
Actually the reckless reveler and torch fiend in the prior list were errors. Should have been hellspark elemental and abbott of keral keep.
1x abbott of keral keep
1x ash zealout
1x borderland marauder
1x eidolon of the great revel
1x goblin guide
1x goblin heelcutter
1x gore-house chainwalker
1x hellspark elemental
1x keldon marauders
1x kiln fiend
1x lathnu hellion
1x monastery swiftspear
1x mudbrawler cohort
1x plated geopede
1x stormblood berserker
1x valley dasher
1x vexing devil
1x war-name aspirant
Enchantments (2)
1x seal of fire
1x sulfuric vortex
Instant (27)
1x brimstone volley
1x brute force
1x burst lightning
1x char
1x collateral damage
1x fireblast
1x flame javelin
1x flames of the blood hand
1x galvanic blast
1x incinerate
1x lightning bolt
1x lightning strike
1x price of progress
1x pyrokinesis
1x searing blaze
1x searing blood
1x searing spear
1x shard volley
1x shock
1x skullcrack
1x staggershock
1x sudden shock
1x tarfire
1x titan's strength
1x volcanic fallout
1x arc trail
1x chain lightning
1x exquisite firecraft
1x fiery confluence
1x fire ambush
1x flame slash
1x forked bolt
1x incendiary flow
1x mizzium mortars
1x reckless abandon
1x rift bolt
1x roast
1x sudden demise
1x volcanic hammer
Lands (38)
27x mountain
1x bloodstained mire
1x wooded foothills
1x scalding tarn
1x arid mesa
1x blinkmoth nexus
1x mutavault
1x mishra's factory
1x wasteland
1x tectonic edge
1x teetering peaks
1x smoldering spires
But if Breya and other art decks continue to proliferate I will definitely play Smash to Smithereens.
Damage per mana is at least as relevant as damage per card. If you lose the game with cards in your hand, then you lost the damage per mana battle. I found that happening with some frequency.
Further, the shocks are exceptionally efficient removal for mana dorks, snapcasters, or even bigger stuff (after it blocks).
I don't run roast, and mizzium mortars is arguable because it costs 2 mana, but I would never cut flame slash. Flame slash is an incredibly efficient way to deal with some fast fat, which allows you to get in a lot more damage with your creatures.
The creature-only removal indirectly deals damage to their face by letting your dorks get through. And this meta is full of blockers.
Yeah, the pump spells are still experimental right now. They are often very efficient 3 damage for 1 mana I must say, which is often awesome.
I think zo-zu and scab-clan aren't worth it at 3 mana, in this faster meta. I may put ankh of mishra back in.
Browbeat might be okay in a burn-heavy list. 3 Mana for 5 damage at sorcery speed is solid, but not amazing. The 3 cards only matter if you actually get around to mostly emptying your hand, which you're not going to do unless you have lots of 1cc spells.
Ball lightning is often a huge tempo drain. I also sometimes don't have the RRR b/c of the manlands, wasteland, tec edge, etc, which can be very painful.
I don't like thunderous wrath. More likely to have it in my opening hand, or to draw it on the first turn or two when I'd rather be dropping a beater, than to draw it.
One reason I have a little more land than I need is because I have lands that I expect to sacrifice or turn into a manland. Or it comes into play tapped, and I need to make sure I have a critical mass of lands that come into play untapped, for tempo reasons. All that said, 37 lands is not outrageous.
But I have a creature-light build, and this is a removal-heavy meta. Gonna be dead a fair bit of the time.
Tangle wire is amazing, except that other decks develop their board so fast now that I can't guarantee that I will be ahead enough to cast it for value. The meta has just gotten so much faster.
1x ash zealout
1x borderland marauder
1x eidolon of the great revel
1x goblin guide
1x goblin heelcutter
1x gore-house chainwalker
1x keldon marauders
1x kiln fiend
1x lathnu hellion
1x monastery swiftspear
1x mudbrawler cohort
1x plated geopede
1x reckelss reveler
1x stormblood berserker
1x torch fiend
1x valley dasher
1x vexing devil
1x war-name aspirant
Enchantments (2)
1x seal of fire
1x sulfuric vortex
Instant (27)
1x brimstone volley
1x brute force
1x burst lightning
1x char
1x collateral damage
1x fireblast
1x flame javelin
1x flames of the blood hand
1x galvanic blast
1x incinerate
1x lightning bolt
1x lightning strike
1x price of progress
1x pyrokinesis
1x searing blaze
1x searing blood
1x searing spear
1x shard volley
1x shock
1x skullcrack
1x staggershock
1x sudden shock
1x tarfire
1x titan's strength
1x volcanic fallout
1x arc trail
1x chain lightning
1x exquisite firecraft
1x fiery confluence
1x fire ambush
1x flame slash
1x forked bolt
1x incendiary flow
1x mizzium mortars
1x reckless abandon
1x rift bolt
1x roast
1x sudden demise
1x volcanic hammer
Lands (38)
27x mountain
1x bloodstained mire
1x wooded foothills
1x scalding tarn
1x arid mesa
1x blinkmoth nexus
1x mutavault
1x mishra's factory
1x wasteland
1x tectonic edge
1x teetering peaks
1x smoldering spires
I wholeheartedly agree with the burn-heavy approach. My current list actually has only 18 creatures. And that includes Lathnu Hellion, Vexing Devil, Keldon Marauders, and Hellspark Elemental.
Cockatrice: androstan
Hash:
ku0r4dm0e1k9eus0ofuf4ljvTime: UTC-5
Maybe. I doubt I'll switch to Tymaret. My deck is all about quickly getting ahead on the board, using that lead to bring their life total down quickly, then efficiently burning them out around turn 4. There are a few higher costed cards in there, i.e. fiery confluence, volcanic eruption, flametongue kavu, that can swing a bad board state back around to me in case plan A doesn't quite work.
Wait until they're tapped out, or they've already burned a few removal spells, and you generally don't get 241'd. In my experience they've been an excellent way to efficiently deal 3 damage, and occasionally they save a creature from ulcerate/bolt/dismember/etc. Occasionally they are also a useful combat trick.
I didn't used to run them, before the meta changed so much. Back then there was so much more true control that would almost never tap down. It was hard to find a safe opening to use a pump spell. With the proliferation of aggro in the 20 life meta, other decks are tapping down all the time.
1x ash zealout
1x borderland marauder
1x brazen scourge
1x eidolon of the great revel
1x falkenrath gorger
1x flametongue kavu
1x frenzied goblin
1x goblin guide
1x goblin heelcutter
1x gore-house chainwalker
1x keldon marauders
1x kiln fiend
1x lathnu hellion
1x monastery swiftspear
1x mudbrawler cohort
1x plated geopede
1x reckelss reveler
1x stormblood berserker
1x torch fiend
1x valley dasher
1x vexing devil
1x war-name aspirant
Enchantments (2)
1x seal of fire
1x sulfuric vortex
1x brute force
1x burst lightning
1x char
1x collateral damage
1x fireblast
1x flame javelin
1x flames of the blood hand
1x galvanic blast
1x incinerate
1x lightning bolt
1x lightning strike
1x price of progress
1x pyrokinesis
1x searing blaze
1x searing blood
1x searing spear
1x shard volley
1x shock
1x skullcrack
1x staggershock
1x stoke the flames
1x tarfire
1x titan's strength
1x violent eruption
1x arc trail
1x chain lightning
1x exquisite firecraft
1x fiery confluence
1x fire ambush
1x flame slash
1x forked bolt
1x incendiary flow
1x mizzium mortars
1x reckless abandon
1x rift bolt
1x roast
1x volcanic hammer
Lands (38)
27x mountain
1x bloodstained mire
1x wooded foothills
1x scalding tarn
1x arid mesa
1x blinkmoth nexus
1x mutavault
1x mishra's factory
1x wasteland
1x tectonic edge
1x teetering peaks
1x smoldering spires
And use it to toast their blocker and swing ftw.