that's why I kinda liked this build a bit more. It's not ideal becuase it runs Griselbrand instead of Balustrade Spy, but it DOES give you outs to the hate.
this is another problem I always have with this deck. what are the easiest things to sideboard out to bring in our hate cards? I'm running Chancellor of the Annex in my list so that's an easy target to side out, but what else is usually pretty good?
sorry for not trudging through all 47 pages to catch myself back up, but in an open meta is there a consensus "best build" we're looking at right now? The build I've been testing with for a few months is the one that ran Griselbrand and Dryad Arbor and eschewed Balustrade Spy. I also saw that at a recent SCG event we had a Manaless Dredge list in the top 8 and he was all in on Balustrade Spy and ran a random Blightseel Colossus (presumably against Sneak and Show) I'm just curious what everyone thinks is better as I'm playing in GP NJ and I'm comfortable with both builds of the deck, I just haven't had the time to play a lot of Legacy lately to figure it out for myself.
Hey guys, I wasn't quite sure where to post this, but I was going through my collection on MODO earlier and I noticed that when Yawgmoth's Will was minimized it had this really odd artwork I've never seen before. When I zoomed in on the card it had the correct artwork. I wasn't sure what to make of it other than maybe a promo artwork for Yawg's Will for the future? I figured I'd share it to see what you guys think.
Sorry for the tiny image, I couldn't get it any larger. 0.o
The new dictate of kruphix may have some potential here. Everyone has been clamoring for a draw engine, how about a howling mine with flash?
As of late, I have been testing some alternative ideas, like running bluster squall as fogs 17-20. In all honesty, its actually really impressive as it can get around skullcrack. The obvious issue is what you cut for it if interested, and I have been leaning towards this over eviction /fated/planar. It is far cheaper, less mana intensive and it doesn't kill our stuff. Bad part is it does nothing to devotion, but I still run 4 verdict and 4 dsphere.. In an aggro heavy meta, I will even replace divination with heroes' reunion.
I actually came to this thread to ask everyone's opinion on Dictate of Kruphix, it seems like the perfect card for this deck over Divination at least, it's instant speed, and gives us a way to get back in the game when we've started to run dry with Fog effects, I'm totally on board
I do agree that we may see a "small guys matters" theme based on some of the efficient "small" sweepers we've seen. however I've been thinking about it myself and I think I may have picked up on a minor theme in Theros and Born of the Gods that points to a "bottom-up" graveyard block...
Anger of the Gods Gild
Card's that while flavourful also oddly include the exile clause. It really stood out for Anger of the Gods as there are only a few cards from RTR block that seem to get hurt by this. Every other time it's just an added bonus that usually doesn't impact the game state much if at all.
Cards that are heavily recursive types of effects that use the graveyard as a resource. In another standard several of these cards could be the part of some powerful strategies that would be played often. Currently however, there is not really a stand out deck making use of the graveyard as a resource and these cards seem kind of out of place and yet fit in with the block flavourfully. Kind of how Nightveil Specter and Boros Reckoner filled that role before. Also if you look back at RTR block you can see all the subtle devotion enablers like Ash Zealot and Precinct Captain. Those cards that are seeing heavy play now due to being good with devotion weren't in your face about it but interblock synergy isn't supposed to be easily picked up on until the next set comes out.
Cards that care about filling up your graveyard or about filling your opponents graveyard. Returned Centaur especially stands out because it feels like an Innstrad block card out of place in the current block.
Cards that specifically care about whats in the graveyard, most notably many of these cards care about creatures in the graveyard, and while that's nothing new a few of the cards had interesting designs, I'm looking at you Nemesis of Mortals.
and finally here's Thoughtseize now if there's a set with mechanics based around using your graveyard as a resource this makes pitching cards from your opponent's hand a potential liability. This would make a lot of sense as Thoughtseize is an extremely powerful card and Wizard's definitely doesn't want it dominating Standard for the entire time it's legal.
I think our fall Block will be a "bottom-up" graveyard set which we have not had in a long long time. Innistrad was top down adn had a lot of graveyard themes and even brought flashback back with some twists, but I think we're going to be looking at a totally new mechanic perhaps a play on Delve, or caring about what kind of cards are in your graveyard and what kind of cards are in your opponent's graveyard. There are a few other cards that add or subtract things from yours and your opponents graveyards, and to some extent that's there to help augment everyone's pet Mill decks from RTR block, but again interblock synergy is meant to be subtle. And one thing that's conspicuously missing? There is not any sort of graveyard hate cards right now. I mean we have some cards in RTR block, but what cards do we have in Theros and Born of the Gods? Only real graveyard "hate" is Underworld Cerberus. Just something to think on.
my issue has been not finding a win condition game 1, i.e. maze. I was wondering if anybody else ran into the problem of not doing anything except stall until you finally run out of fogs/wraths because you never saw you maze, this happened to me quite a few time, this is why i added perimeter main. YOu never had this issue, bean?
Also, the reason i like swan song over negate or other counters game 1 is because you can't reliably (if at all in my deck) counter bigger turn 3 plays with negate (or gods) like underworld, thassa, even thoughtseize if you need to protect you wrath.
Yeah when I played Maze's End last rotation, that was the BIGGEST problem I had other than trying to dodge Junk Reanimator wrecking my day with recursive Acidic Slime's. I honestly wish I had played Crackling Perimeter main back then as my deck would have performed better. And mind you I had Safe Passage, Think Twice and Terminus. We are working with a limited card pool now, and relying simply on drawing a single 4 of in the deck as not only our wincon, but our engine, without any reliable way to fetch is is not that comforting. I really enjoy Crackling Perimeter or a big creature, or a Planeswalker, or SOMETHING to help prevent just not drawing Maze's End and losing a game I should handily win because they run me out of Fog effects.
Now if we had some pretty solid card filtering/drawing I'd be singing a different tune, but while the best we can do is Divination digging 2 cards deep, and possibly Urban Evolution at 5 mana I think its a good plan to diversify our threats at least a little. Not saying Bean Warrior did not do a phenomenal job with his deck and it hasn't been performing for him, but its a numbers game, and most of us just have that trouble of not drawing our wincon when we need to win.
The issue is it costs even more mana to turn this into a maze when all the lands come in tapped, its colorless in a 5 color deck that already runs 4 colorless lands, and without a maze in play, it sits there. It has crossed my mind, and the fact it comes in untapped is great, but I think it is too clunky, but I may be wrong.
Those are the same conclusions I came to. I really like that a lot of the lists are solidfying and ending up with the same core cards, that means we're on to a solid build.
I know it's kind of greedy but would it be worth trying to mess with the manabase enough to run either Anger of the Gods or Drown in Sorrow? Those additional sweepers seem like they could do a lot of work for us. I was also considering testing Whelming Wave, while not a hard reset it does act as a Fog of sorts against most creature decks.
I agree with you. With two Maze's End and you have 7 gates on the board and you holding the last gate, it let's you win earlier. This is a good strategy and not a win-more. IMO, the overextending part will be if you have 3 on the field.
Ok, if having a second copy of Maze's End is such an ideal scenario, shouldn't all of our lists be playing at least 1 copy of Thespian's Stage to help facilitate that? Not trying to argue of course because I'm often wrong with deck tuning, I just want to know if we should be including Thespian's Stage. I had it in my first draft list and it seemed very unnecessary but if someone makes a good argument for it I will certainly find room.
I like this deck, but I think I need more card draw...
a solution may be:
-2 Ral Zarek
+2 Divination
(still working on the SB)
I definitely feel like Thespian's Stage is often "winmore" the same as two Maze's End can be "winmore" difficult to take advantage of effectively. and the colour fixing potential is marginal everythng else seems solid and just needs tweaking and tuning to your meta.
Hey guys, so I took an updated build based off of a few of your very streamlined deck lists here to a local event for a Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Went 4-0 and won the event I didn't take thorough notes, but here's a relative breakdown of what I played and my decklist.
Round 1 vs Jund
He got stuck on 2 lands and a Scavenging Ooze in Game 1 for several turns, eventually he got a Stormbreath Dragon but by then I had completed the Maze.
Game 2 he ended up with 2 Stormbreath's and 1 of them got Monstrous on me. He overextended and I swung back and killed him with Saruli Gatekeepers and Crackling Perimeter after chipping him down and Fogging him out. 1-0
Round 3 vs. B/W Humans
This match was very difficult and we went to the third game. I remember him killing me with a bevy of Humans back up with several Thoughtseizes which decimated my hand during Game 1.
In Game 2 I managed to overwhelm him with Assemble the Legion tokens and a pair of Saruli Gatekeepers kept me at a healthy life total, and blocked his tokens all day. He didn't hit any Thoughtseize this game.
Game 3 we were getting close to the end of the round, I managed to draw approximately 9 Fog effects overall, and just ignored his attack step while running the Maze. 3-0
Round 4 vs. Mono Blue Devotion
Another tough match that went to the third game.
Game 1 swept him easily and won with Maze's End, he put up little resistance.
Game 2 I stumbled on mana and he rushed me with a horde of Blue critters, backed up with several copies of Dissolve and Negate. I did manage to stabilize but then he dropped Jace, Memory Adept and milled my singleton Dimir Guildgate, and my Assemble the Legion in the first mill for 10. My singleton Crackling Perimeter was milled in the second mix of 10. I conceded with no way to kill him.
Game 3 was a tight game but I landed a 3rd turn Crackling Perimeter. At one point I was dead on board and mised a copy of Supreme Verdict to stabilize and comeback. Without that I would not have won this game or this match. I managed to edge him out with Crackling Perimeter and enough Fog effects to outlast his counterspells. 4-0
I realize my particular list is not perfectly ideal but I wanted to try a few things out with the flex slots I had available, I look forward to revising this deck come Born of the Gods and seeing what we can work with for it there.
Also I like Rakdos' Return out of the board that sounds like an interesting idea.
Did anyone see the Maze's End deck that went 8-2 at the Grand Prix? I looked but couldn't find a list.
I have a Type 4 stack, we usually draft it as a cube and use a variation of these general rules. It's the most fun I've ever had playing Magic for the record.
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Nether Shadow
2 Griselbrand
2 Shambling Shell
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bridge from Below
2 Sickening Shoal
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Nature's Claim
1 Contagion
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Forest
2 Faerie Macabre
Sorry for the tiny image, I couldn't get it any larger. 0.o
I actually came to this thread to ask everyone's opinion on Dictate of Kruphix, it seems like the perfect card for this deck over Divination at least, it's instant speed, and gives us a way to get back in the game when we've started to run dry with Fog effects, I'm totally on board
Anger of the Gods
Gild
Card's that while flavourful also oddly include the exile clause. It really stood out for Anger of the Gods as there are only a few cards from RTR block that seem to get hurt by this. Every other time it's just an added bonus that usually doesn't impact the game state much if at all.
Champion of Stray Souls
Gift of Immortality
Odunos River Trawler
Pharika's Mender
Tymaret, the Murder King
Underworld Cerberus
Rescue from the Underworld
Cards that are heavily recursive types of effects that use the graveyard as a resource. In another standard several of these cards could be the part of some powerful strategies that would be played often. Currently however, there is not really a stand out deck making use of the graveyard as a resource and these cards seem kind of out of place and yet fit in with the block flavourfully. Kind of how Nightveil Specter and Boros Reckoner filled that role before. Also if you look back at RTR block you can see all the subtle devotion enablers like Ash Zealot and Precinct Captain. Those cards that are seeing heavy play now due to being good with devotion weren't in your face about it but interblock synergy isn't supposed to be easily picked up on until the next set comes out.
Commune with the Gods
Steam Augury
Returned Centaur
Satyr Wayfinder
Cards that care about filling up your graveyard or about filling your opponents graveyard. Returned Centaur especially stands out because it feels like an Innstrad block card out of place in the current block.
Graverobber Spider
Nemesis of Mortals
Nighthowler
Psychic Intrusion
Spellheart Chimera
Cards that specifically care about whats in the graveyard, most notably many of these cards care about creatures in the graveyard, and while that's nothing new a few of the cards had interesting designs, I'm looking at you Nemesis of Mortals.
Thoughtseize
and finally here's Thoughtseize now if there's a set with mechanics based around using your graveyard as a resource this makes pitching cards from your opponent's hand a potential liability. This would make a lot of sense as Thoughtseize is an extremely powerful card and Wizard's definitely doesn't want it dominating Standard for the entire time it's legal.
I think our fall Block will be a "bottom-up" graveyard set which we have not had in a long long time. Innistrad was top down adn had a lot of graveyard themes and even brought flashback back with some twists, but I think we're going to be looking at a totally new mechanic perhaps a play on Delve, or caring about what kind of cards are in your graveyard and what kind of cards are in your opponent's graveyard. There are a few other cards that add or subtract things from yours and your opponents graveyards, and to some extent that's there to help augment everyone's pet Mill decks from RTR block, but again interblock synergy is meant to be subtle. And one thing that's conspicuously missing? There is not any sort of graveyard hate cards right now. I mean we have some cards in RTR block, but what cards do we have in Theros and Born of the Gods? Only real graveyard "hate" is Underworld Cerberus. Just something to think on.
Third one is probably Fire-Lit Thicket it's got a similar feeling in the art, and would make sense if Twilight Mire is the second art.
Yeah when I played Maze's End last rotation, that was the BIGGEST problem I had other than trying to dodge Junk Reanimator wrecking my day with recursive Acidic Slime's. I honestly wish I had played Crackling Perimeter main back then as my deck would have performed better. And mind you I had Safe Passage, Think Twice and Terminus. We are working with a limited card pool now, and relying simply on drawing a single 4 of in the deck as not only our wincon, but our engine, without any reliable way to fetch is is not that comforting. I really enjoy Crackling Perimeter or a big creature, or a Planeswalker, or SOMETHING to help prevent just not drawing Maze's End and losing a game I should handily win because they run me out of Fog effects.
Now if we had some pretty solid card filtering/drawing I'd be singing a different tune, but while the best we can do is Divination digging 2 cards deep, and possibly Urban Evolution at 5 mana I think its a good plan to diversify our threats at least a little. Not saying Bean Warrior did not do a phenomenal job with his deck and it hasn't been performing for him, but its a numbers game, and most of us just have that trouble of not drawing our wincon when we need to win.
Those are the same conclusions I came to. I really like that a lot of the lists are solidfying and ending up with the same core cards, that means we're on to a solid build.
I know it's kind of greedy but would it be worth trying to mess with the manabase enough to run either Anger of the Gods or Drown in Sorrow? Those additional sweepers seem like they could do a lot of work for us. I was also considering testing Whelming Wave, while not a hard reset it does act as a Fog of sorts against most creature decks.
Ok, if having a second copy of Maze's End is such an ideal scenario, shouldn't all of our lists be playing at least 1 copy of Thespian's Stage to help facilitate that? Not trying to argue of course because I'm often wrong with deck tuning, I just want to know if we should be including Thespian's Stage. I had it in my first draft list and it seemed very unnecessary but if someone makes a good argument for it I will certainly find room.
I definitely feel like Thespian's Stage is often "winmore" the same as two Maze's End can be "winmore" difficult to take advantage of effectively. and the colour fixing potential is marginal everythng else seems solid and just needs tweaking and tuning to your meta.
4 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Azorius Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Fog
4 Druid's Deliverance
4 Defend the Hearth
4 Riot Control
4 Detention Sphere
2 Merciless Eviction
2 Crackling Perimeter
2 Divination
1 Aetherize
1 Gatecreeper Vine
1 Urban Evolution
4 Saruli Gatekeepers
2 Slaughter Games
2 Wear/ /Tear
2 Gainsay
2 Elixir of Immortality
2 Pithing Needle
1 Assemble the Legion
Round 1 vs Jund
He got stuck on 2 lands and a Scavenging Ooze in Game 1 for several turns, eventually he got a Stormbreath Dragon but by then I had completed the Maze.
Game 2 he ended up with 2 Stormbreath's and 1 of them got Monstrous on me. He overextended and I swung back and killed him with Saruli Gatekeepers and Crackling Perimeter after chipping him down and Fogging him out.
1-0
Round 2 vs Grixis
In Game 1 he Thoughtseized me a few times, and had a hand full of mostly useless removal. Made a few Pack Rat tokens. He did land an Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver to minimal effect before I killed him with Crackling Perimeter.
Game 2 he hit me with Slaughter Games twice and named Crackling Perimeter first, of which I only had a singleton remaining in my deck, and then named Detention Sphere. I had 3 Supreme Verdict and an Assemble the Legion in hand, played the Assemble the Legion, and a Pithing Needle on his Pack Rat. He followed up with a Sire of Insanity, which I was not expecting, and then a second Sire of Insanity the next turn. I eventually reached the Maze's End while chumping his men with a legion of soldiers.
2-0
Round 3 vs. B/W Humans
This match was very difficult and we went to the third game. I remember him killing me with a bevy of Humans back up with several Thoughtseizes which decimated my hand during Game 1.
In Game 2 I managed to overwhelm him with Assemble the Legion tokens and a pair of Saruli Gatekeepers kept me at a healthy life total, and blocked his tokens all day. He didn't hit any Thoughtseize this game.
Game 3 we were getting close to the end of the round, I managed to draw approximately 9 Fog effects overall, and just ignored his attack step while running the Maze.
3-0
Round 4 vs. Mono Blue Devotion
Another tough match that went to the third game.
Game 1 swept him easily and won with Maze's End, he put up little resistance.
Game 2 I stumbled on mana and he rushed me with a horde of Blue critters, backed up with several copies of Dissolve and Negate. I did manage to stabilize but then he dropped Jace, Memory Adept and milled my singleton Dimir Guildgate, and my Assemble the Legion in the first mill for 10. My singleton Crackling Perimeter was milled in the second mix of 10. I conceded with no way to kill him.
Game 3 was a tight game but I landed a 3rd turn Crackling Perimeter. At one point I was dead on board and mised a copy of Supreme Verdict to stabilize and comeback. Without that I would not have won this game or this match. I managed to edge him out with Crackling Perimeter and enough Fog effects to outlast his counterspells.
4-0
I realize my particular list is not perfectly ideal but I wanted to try a few things out with the flex slots I had available, I look forward to revising this deck come Born of the Gods and seeing what we can work with for it there.
Also I like Rakdos' Return out of the board that sounds like an interesting idea.
Did anyone see the Maze's End deck that went 8-2 at the Grand Prix? I looked but couldn't find a list.
A-MAZE-ING...ftfy
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/9160-Type-4-Limited-Infinity-Week-The-Winners-And-Next-Weeks-Challenge.html
I have a Type 4 stack, we usually draft it as a cube and use a variation of these general rules. It's the most fun I've ever had playing Magic for the record.