A third episode of the weekly video-podcast Gamestate is now live at http://www.gainmes.com/2012/04/gamestate-4172012.html . In the episode the usual cast of Adam Ragsdale, Jarvis Yu, and Stephen Flavall interview Cedric Phillips and Bing Luke, who were each among the top 8 competitors of the MTGO PTQs over the weekend - Bing, in fact, top 8'ed both of them! Topics are the state of standard, the path through the PTQ, online vs paper PTQs, and just how good exactly is that Delver of Secrets card?
Looks like you need 9 instants/sorceries for it to consistently outperform Moon Heron if you're never doing anything with it as a 1/1 and don't care about it costing three less. More realistically, since it can attack as a 1/1 (or block), and costing less is very relevant, and since the game is likely to end on turn six or seven a decent amount of the time, you probably only need 6 for it to be about equal in strength to Moon Heron, and Moon Heron is far from being a mediocre card that you're comparing it to; even if it's worse than Moon Heron it can still be very playable.
I like you guys' analysis. I made an interactive spreadsheet which shows probabilities for all outcomes for any decksize and landcount here: http://bit.ly/r9NBnl
One cool thing is you can use that for math with cards like Spoils of the Vault too.
Surely there's a difference between building a deck around a card and building a deck that a card is really good in?
Whatever. This is a really stupid thing to be arguing about. It's just semantics.
Carry on with top rocks/sucks argument.
-Goblinboy
Tooth and Nail is a deck built around a card - Tooth and Nail. Meandeck Tendrils is a deck built around a card - Tendrils of Agony. None of the aggro decks in this format are built around Umezawa's Jitte, it is just a card that is really good in them. The only argument I can see for an aggro deck being built around a card is Tallowisp, and Tallowisp quite definitely isn't Umezawa's Jitte.
As for the argument over top, I'm pretty sure that's been resolved by the results at the PT today. If any of you would like to continue flying straight in the face of logic and evidence and try to continue believing Top is bad be my guest, you're only hurting yourselves.
I don't think Fade was saying it was bad; he was just disagreeing with the term "format-defining." It really depends how you use the term. He said that if a card fits into a bunch of decks rather than having a bunch of decks built around that card, it's not format defining. Whatever. It's just semantics.
-Goblinboy
Decks aren't built around Jitte either. It's a well-spent 4-of in any aggro deck, just like Sensei's Divining Top is a well-spent 4-of in any green-based control deck.
SDT is not a "format-defining" card, JoINrbs. It's simply a useful utility card; it certainly doesn't define the format. It fits in a variety of decks, and no one cares about disrupting it; the opposite is true for the Jitte. Jitte creates a bias in the format for creature-based decks, and almost all decks have to be prepared to stop a Jitte.
No, it doesn't. The bias in the format is for control decks. As evidenced by 7/8 decks in the top 8 being control decks. And all of them were playing SDT. SDT is as format defining as STE and Umezawa's Jitte.
Is the "Terrible Trinket"'s, aka, the Sensei's Divining Top, going to have the same effect on Standard that it had on the most recent PT?
While everyone thought that Jitte would be the difference maker, it wasn't, it actually ended up being the Top - all but 1 of the top 8 had the Top in it.
Since block results usually end up being the future of Type 2, is this the future of Type 2?
The "Terrible Trinket" is and has been having the same effect on standard as it had on the most recent block PE ever since affinity was banned, and even before that in tooth and nail.
While Jitte is admittedly a format-defining card, so is Sensei's Divining Top. One of the players who made the top 8 - Ryan Cimera/BTape - even went so far as to try to explain this to you, along with myself and many others.
What do you mean 'is this the future of type 2'? This is the CURRENT type 2.
Quote from Cyan »
It's too hard to say, at this point, I think.
Some of the decks that were seen in the PT this weekend, most likely, won't end up being viable decks anymore once Saviors is legal...and maybe a new deck will come along that is? I still think that people misuse Top, and just include it for the sake of doing so. I understand a deck like Kai's running it, since it can literally shuffle an infinite amount of times...but, to me, 13 total shuffling effects doesn't justify Top, even though it was like the 2nd most played card(not counting land, obv) at the PT. I think it's just a lack of better cards more than anything else..we'll see what happens after Saviors is released...hopefully it'll affect the Block Constructed aspect alot..because the decks from PT Philly, for the most part, seemed so ridiculously random, with no real plan at all...just 'play some mana acceleration and do some stuff and hope I draw more of my copy of Meloku or KotNT than my opponent'.
The reason the decks from PT Philly seem random to you is that have no grasp on the format in question nor the interactions of the cards being played. The reason you think Sensei's Divining Top is bad is that you do not understand its effect on the game or the revolting amount of card advantage it generates in any of the seven decks that it was played in in the TOP EIGHT OF A 300+ PLAYER PRO TOUR EVENT. No, Sensei's Divining Top isn't bad, yes, 13 total shuffling effects do justify Top, no, it is not a lack of better cards more than anything else, and no, it sure as hell won't be going away after Saviors is released.
Recapping on the weekend's three GPs and looking forward to the MODO cube.
Looks like you need 9 instants/sorceries for it to consistently outperform Moon Heron if you're never doing anything with it as a 1/1 and don't care about it costing three less. More realistically, since it can attack as a 1/1 (or block), and costing less is very relevant, and since the game is likely to end on turn six or seven a decent amount of the time, you probably only need 6 for it to be about equal in strength to Moon Heron, and Moon Heron is far from being a mediocre card that you're comparing it to; even if it's worse than Moon Heron it can still be very playable.
One cool thing is you can use that for math with cards like Spoils of the Vault too.
Also have a short blog post with my thoughts on the card here: http://gainmes.blogspot.com/2011/09/...sh-course.html
Interactive spreadsheet which you can download here: http://bit.ly/r9NBnl
Tooth and Nail is a deck built around a card - Tooth and Nail. Meandeck Tendrils is a deck built around a card - Tendrils of Agony. None of the aggro decks in this format are built around Umezawa's Jitte, it is just a card that is really good in them. The only argument I can see for an aggro deck being built around a card is Tallowisp, and Tallowisp quite definitely isn't Umezawa's Jitte.
As for the argument over top, I'm pretty sure that's been resolved by the results at the PT today. If any of you would like to continue flying straight in the face of logic and evidence and try to continue believing Top is bad be my guest, you're only hurting yourselves.
Decks aren't built around Jitte either. It's a well-spent 4-of in any aggro deck, just like Sensei's Divining Top is a well-spent 4-of in any green-based control deck.
No, it doesn't. The bias in the format is for control decks. As evidenced by 7/8 decks in the top 8 being control decks. And all of them were playing SDT. SDT is as format defining as STE and Umezawa's Jitte.
The "Terrible Trinket" is and has been having the same effect on standard as it had on the most recent block PE ever since affinity was banned, and even before that in tooth and nail.
While Jitte is admittedly a format-defining card, so is Sensei's Divining Top. One of the players who made the top 8 - Ryan Cimera/BTape - even went so far as to try to explain this to you, along with myself and many others.
What do you mean 'is this the future of type 2'? This is the CURRENT type 2.
The reason the decks from PT Philly seem random to you is that have no grasp on the format in question nor the interactions of the cards being played. The reason you think Sensei's Divining Top is bad is that you do not understand its effect on the game or the revolting amount of card advantage it generates in any of the seven decks that it was played in in the TOP EIGHT OF A 300+ PLAYER PRO TOUR EVENT. No, Sensei's Divining Top isn't bad, yes, 13 total shuffling effects do justify Top, no, it is not a lack of better cards more than anything else, and no, it sure as hell won't be going away after Saviors is released.