I'm sort of in the same boat... besides married and all that in terms of hobbies. Magic is my only real hobby that I spend a lot of time on and I take a lot of pride in my cube and it makes me super happy to have my players like all the foily and altered goodness. I can't see myself parting with it any time soon unless something life changing happens and I absolutely need to.
If you aren't pushed to move it, I say keep it. A lot of the old foils and stuff can only really go up pricewise, too, IMO.
Lost in the finals of a GPT for vegas yesterday playing the same 76 to elves and some awful draws. My matchups were also pretty atrocious so I got kind of lucky during the day.
Mine was...
R1: UB reanimator - 2-0
R2: BUG Leovold - (awful draws, felt like a good MU) 1-2
R3: Elves - 2-0
R4: BR Reanimator - 2-0
R5: Omni - 2-1
You're a great pilot of this deck!
Rotating in Grove and gamble for PF... I like.
I don't know if this was answered somewhere already, but (especialy in RUG) what are hands you would keep or not in G1 and G2/3 ?
Is there a rule of thumb like 'keep either one Exploration, one Mox Diamon or two tutors'...?
Not a huge rule of thumb. G1 you generally want a way to find Loam, or have loam in the opener. I've kept hands based on having punishing fire + grove or stage + depths too, so it's not set in stone. Exploration + Loam are usually snap keeps.
G2 and 3 get a little trickier depending on the matchup. If you need the hate for a combo deck you definitely mull. If against something like miracles or midrange-y, there's a wide spread of hands you can keep depending on what you want to play around.
So general question about the RG versions that rely on gamble. Assuming game 1, if you have a loam in hand, is it ever better to gamble for exploration over manabond? or is it better to get a few lands ahead even if it costs you a crop rot etc.
For example:
Opening hand
Taiga, Loam, Crop, Thespian, Wasteland, Gamble, Maze.
Would you ever gamble for exploration over manabond here? Having trouble figuring out the ideal play. For the sake of argument, lets say i have no clue what my opponent is on and i am on the play.
Thanks a lot for this primer btw, am loving the deck!
~Myth
For that hand, I'd probably be inclined to Taiga -> Pass and see what my opponent is on. If they're on a creature based deck like D&T, I could totally see going T2 -> Maze -> Rotate the Maze into a grove and gamble for a punishing fire.
If they're on a combo deck, you'd probably want to crop roto before gambling for a depths so you have both pieces to race.
Leaving crop rotation up turn 1 also lets you possibly go for bog or something if stuff hits the fan like a T1 against BR Reanimator, dredge or even storm trying to past in flames.
Okie Dokie. Report from memory time. Made it to the venue pretty late, bringing along 4 other people, barely had time to scribble down my list and hope nothing was wrong.
Round 1: RW Walker Control Shenanigans.
G1: My opponent is actually a friend of mine who has a huge love for the card blood moon. I am scared. I lead fetch go, and he leads with arid mesa, cracks and grabs a plateau. I am more scared. He casts faithless looting, tossing a land and an Elesh Norn into the graveyard. I am confused. Game continues a bit with him casting a Nahiri, the Harbinger, and I intuition for Karakas, Loam and Ghost Quarter. I start to quarter him out and he gets a sanctum prelate in play on 2, but I have the Barbarian Ring and take it out, taking the Nahiri out with an EE on 4. I ghost quarter a mountain, he fetches another, and on the next turn I ghost quarter again and he fails to find and scoops it up. I also saw ensnaring bridges and Chandra, Torch of Defiance this game.
G2: I get a super early tireless tracker that continuously grows and beats face, all the way down to 5. He lands an ensnaring bridge, but I have the grip in hand, as well as the capability to make a Marit lage that seals the game away. I did see him looting away a Loyal Retainers this game, which I guess goes with the Norn, and Iona in the deck that I saw afterwards. Emrakul as well for the Nahiri combo.
Round 2: Eldrazi and Taxes
G1: I draw 7 and have a super sweet hand. I go -> Fetch, Mox Diamond, Pitch Maze of Ith, wasteland, cast loam, go. My opponent goes plains go. I dredge tabernacle, another maze of ith and something else. Cast loam, put tabernacle and maze in play and pass. My opponent drops a wasteland, thinks for a minute and scoops. Huh?
G2: I board like D&T since thats what I'm assuming it is, bringing in 3 grips, 3 tracker and the Tremors. My opponent keeps 7 and opens with a Leyline of the Void. Oh. He goes Ancient Tomb, go, and I know what I'm playing against. I exploration waste the tomb to keep him off mana, but he draws some basics and deploys a thalia, which I have a karakas to keep in check. He also plays a thought-knot seer, but my hand is triple life from the loam + Mox diamond so he can take whatever he wants. I draw a Tireless Tracker, slam it into play and play a land to make a clue. I have a Maze keeping the Thought-knot back, so I simply chain land afer land until tracker is 9/8 or so and just crash into his blockers until he dies. He tells me he had no idea about the trackers post board and had boarded out dismembers. I'm lucky I didn't see an eldrazi displacer.
Round 3: Mentor Miracles
G1: The game goes super long, but I never feel out of control, assembling an EE lock as soon as possible, and notice he's on the mentor build, which I punishing fire. I EE away three counterbalances and start to ghost quarter away his white sources until he realizes his efforts are futile and scoops it up.
G2: I have a decent hand with loam going, and he is stuck on 2 mana. I play an exploration which he wear/tears, but I have a second one. I draw a chalice and chalice for 1. It resolves and I feel a lot safer about jamming loams without having to worry about surgical. I start to assemble the combo, and he snapcaster + wear/tears my chalice again. He goes to surgical my loams and I in response surgical my own loam and fail to find. He is surprised. He blood moons me and I actually miss the chance to make a marit lage in response to kill since he tapped out for it, but I have the EE3 for it with the basic forest and mox diamond and am able to pull a win around afterwards.
Round 4: Burn
G1: My opponent is actually 2-1 in record so I get the pair down. I've seen and played against him before but can't remember what he's on. He leads with mountain (revised, mind you), suspend rift bolt, go. Ugh. Why. He tosses a lot of burn spells at my face while I simply make land drops with exploration and hold a crop rotation for dear life. I get to resolve Intuition, finding me Loam, double Thespian's Stage to start to set up a lock but I feel like I'm a bit late. I untap, cast loam, drop both stages and cast crop rotation and 4 life, which resolves. From there I simple chasm lock and start to slowly ghost quarter him out. A few turns later, I draw crucible which should definitely seal the deal and he scoops it up after asking if he's locked.
G2: He has a quick start again and I find myself at a super low life total after a rift bolt, flame rift and some goblin guide. I drop glacial chasm to give me a tiny bit of breathing room with stage in play and depths in hand. I pay the two life upkeep and drop down to 6, passing the turn with the board of Mox Diamond x 2, Stage, Depths, Chasm. He draw and passes and with three cards in hand, I decide to go for it, and hope that he just has a fireblast and only sorcery spells. I make the marit lage, untap, sac chasm to upkeep and swing in and he dies. He shows me a hand of Fireblast + Chain Lightning + Price, but I only had two mox diamonds! He also tells me he had fireblast in game 1 when I crop roto'ed at 4 life and just blanked out. I'll take it.
Round 5: RG Lands (Tropical island + explosives MD)
G1: These games are pretty quick, and weird. We get off to the exact same start, tropical island -> Exploration -> land, and he wastelands me and casts a loam, to which I wasteland his karakas back and then bog him. He promptly bogs me back once I get my own loam in the yard and we're now both starved for resources at around 3-4 lands. I rip Intuition off the top, opting for another loam, ghost quarter and wasteland and he scoops it up. I noticed he had also played a port so it put me to believe he wasn't on ghost quarters.
G2: I have the option for a turn 2 tireless tracker, but mise it so I can crack a clue in case of a punishing fire. I get two clues from it, and swing in, and he punishing fires it. I crack a clue, and in response he fires it again. Boo. We get into resource battles again, and he goes to bog me. I crack my last clue in response to dredge my loam, and then ghost quarter out his basic forest and start to work on his other lands before I bog myself and he packs it up.
Round 6: ID
Round 7: ID
Quarterfinals: Goblins
G1: Ahh goblins. I've met this player in the top 8 and swiss here at CFB more times than I can count and they're always pretty swingy. He's on the play, and leads with Vial go. I have a fairly slow hand that was probably dead to Lackey but had stage + depths in it which they can't beat, so I kept. I go land drops while he adds another turn 2 vial, and on my third turn, I EE1 while his board is Vial@1, Vial@2 and nothing else. I figured if he had a lackey he would've dropped it ages ago and I don't really care about anything else. It's just a Mogg War Marshall, and although I have the depths, I drop a wasteland with a crop rotation in hand to EOT make a token for the win.
G2: I mull and find a really sketch hand with only two mana producing lands, being stage and grove, but also have a copy of EE and the Subterranean Tremors. He goes T1 lackey and I am really scared. I play grove go, and he attacks with lackey, putting in another one. He plays a port and says go. Ports me on upkeep and I am forced to stage and pass. He swings in with both lackeys and I am fortunate enough to only see a gempalm incinerator from them. He taps and plays Rest in Peace. Since this is the only window I really have, I tremors for 1, wiping his board, only for him to cast Magus of the Moon next turn, followed by a Goblin Chieftain which chip my life total away by 4. I eventually draw a punishing fire, and kill the magus, and then mazing the chieftain to preserve my life total, but he has ANOTHER magus following, in which I ghost quarter myself to get the basic forest in response. I draw a gamble before dying, and quickly gamble for anther PFire to deal with the magus again, and get to keep it off the 75% chance, pitching the EE. I grip the Rest in Peace, and punishing fire the magus again, and maze the chieftain again keeping myself at 3. My plan is to grove back the fire and kill the chieftain next turn and try to stabilize off the maze. I also have the stage depths combo in play but can't go due to wasteland. He ends up wastelanding my maze and hits me down to 3, and passes the turn with no cards in hand, porting on my upkeep, and in response I slam Marit Lage into play. I basically give him "Find Stingscourger or lose" and he draw an Arid Mesa. I guess with both magus of the moon, he had forgotten about the stage/depths since they were irrelevant and was focusing on getting through the maze since I was so low. Either way, punts were had.
Top 4 graciously split so I could go grab some delicious ramen with a group of friends, one who also made the top 4 split.
Is a RUG list generally considered stronger than the pure RG version?
Less variance i would guess thanks to the Intuitions?
~Myth
RG is actually considered a bit stronger since it's more streamlined with cheaper tutors and can jam the 20/20 into play faster. The RUG version is more control-ey and can play through a lot more hate.
I don't like throne, it costs too much for another colorless source in the deck.
A RUG lands list won a 73 person Win-A-Mox Event last weekend. It's almost the same 75 as the list I posted a few weeks back, cutting a sphere and my sweeper for two surgical extraction, and a gamble in the main to go down to 75 cards.
Oh jeez, I totally scanned over your deck and didn't notice you have both.
I'd recommend 8-9 mana denial lands maximum, 12 is a lot and takes up extra space in the deck. I personally go for zero ports right now, but have seen people on things like 4 waste 3 port 2 GQ. I'd definitely play bog main and at least put karakas in the side. I'd also add at least a third grove and third punishing fire. Maybe find space for a copy of Manabond too.
Maybe:
-4 Port
-1 Tranquil Thicket
+1 Ghost Quarter (to 4)
+1 Bojuka Bog (Main)
+1 Grove of the Burnwillows
+1 Punishing Fire
+1 Barbarian Ring (Sanctum Prelate is a real card)
The sideboard slot freed up from bog can turn into a karakas.
Could you explain the (what looks to be recent) trend of moving to GQ over port? I was kinda looking at GQ as an alternative wasteland whereas ports do something completely different that GQ doesn't replace?
The rest of your options look solid, will tweak the deck! Appreciate the feedback
~Myth
The meta is pretty light on basics and in the matchups where port is good, it's usually not a great matchup anyways, so GQ strenghtens most matchups wasteland is good in which is quite a few, and also makes some matchups like miracles better since you can cut them off white pretty easily for example.
If you aren't pushed to move it, I say keep it. A lot of the old foils and stuff can only really go up pricewise, too, IMO.
Weird. I'd take it to the misprint group. Never seen anything like it.
Mine was...
R1: UB reanimator - 2-0
R2: BUG Leovold - (awful draws, felt like a good MU) 1-2
R3: Elves - 2-0
R4: BR Reanimator - 2-0
R5: Omni - 2-1
Quarters: Grixis Delver 2-0
Semis: Elves 2-0
Finals: Elves 0-2
Not a huge rule of thumb. G1 you generally want a way to find Loam, or have loam in the opener. I've kept hands based on having punishing fire + grove or stage + depths too, so it's not set in stone. Exploration + Loam are usually snap keeps.
G2 and 3 get a little trickier depending on the matchup. If you need the hate for a combo deck you definitely mull. If against something like miracles or midrange-y, there's a wide spread of hands you can keep depending on what you want to play around.
For that hand, I'd probably be inclined to Taiga -> Pass and see what my opponent is on. If they're on a creature based deck like D&T, I could totally see going T2 -> Maze -> Rotate the Maze into a grove and gamble for a punishing fire.
If they're on a combo deck, you'd probably want to crop roto before gambling for a depths so you have both pieces to race.
Leaving crop rotation up turn 1 also lets you possibly go for bog or something if stuff hits the fan like a T1 against BR Reanimator, dredge or even storm trying to past in flames.
Prelate isn't too bad with this deck because of the multiple EE in the main.
Round 1: RW Walker Control Shenanigans.
G1: My opponent is actually a friend of mine who has a huge love for the card blood moon. I am scared. I lead fetch go, and he leads with arid mesa, cracks and grabs a plateau. I am more scared. He casts faithless looting, tossing a land and an Elesh Norn into the graveyard. I am confused. Game continues a bit with him casting a Nahiri, the Harbinger, and I intuition for Karakas, Loam and Ghost Quarter. I start to quarter him out and he gets a sanctum prelate in play on 2, but I have the Barbarian Ring and take it out, taking the Nahiri out with an EE on 4. I ghost quarter a mountain, he fetches another, and on the next turn I ghost quarter again and he fails to find and scoops it up. I also saw ensnaring bridges and Chandra, Torch of Defiance this game.
G2: I get a super early tireless tracker that continuously grows and beats face, all the way down to 5. He lands an ensnaring bridge, but I have the grip in hand, as well as the capability to make a Marit lage that seals the game away. I did see him looting away a Loyal Retainers this game, which I guess goes with the Norn, and Iona in the deck that I saw afterwards. Emrakul as well for the Nahiri combo.
Round 2: Eldrazi and Taxes
G1: I draw 7 and have a super sweet hand. I go -> Fetch, Mox Diamond, Pitch Maze of Ith, wasteland, cast loam, go. My opponent goes plains go. I dredge tabernacle, another maze of ith and something else. Cast loam, put tabernacle and maze in play and pass. My opponent drops a wasteland, thinks for a minute and scoops. Huh?
G2: I board like D&T since thats what I'm assuming it is, bringing in 3 grips, 3 tracker and the Tremors. My opponent keeps 7 and opens with a Leyline of the Void. Oh. He goes Ancient Tomb, go, and I know what I'm playing against. I exploration waste the tomb to keep him off mana, but he draws some basics and deploys a thalia, which I have a karakas to keep in check. He also plays a thought-knot seer, but my hand is triple life from the loam + Mox diamond so he can take whatever he wants. I draw a Tireless Tracker, slam it into play and play a land to make a clue. I have a Maze keeping the Thought-knot back, so I simply chain land afer land until tracker is 9/8 or so and just crash into his blockers until he dies. He tells me he had no idea about the trackers post board and had boarded out dismembers. I'm lucky I didn't see an eldrazi displacer.
Round 3: Mentor Miracles
G1: The game goes super long, but I never feel out of control, assembling an EE lock as soon as possible, and notice he's on the mentor build, which I punishing fire. I EE away three counterbalances and start to ghost quarter away his white sources until he realizes his efforts are futile and scoops it up.
OUT: 4 Crop Rotation, 2 Gamble, 1 Glacial Chasm, 1 Bojuka Bog, 2 Maze of Ith, 1 Tabernacle
IN: 3 Tireless Tracker, 3 Chalice of the Void, 3 Krosan Grip, 2 Surgical Extraction
G2: I have a decent hand with loam going, and he is stuck on 2 mana. I play an exploration which he wear/tears, but I have a second one. I draw a chalice and chalice for 1. It resolves and I feel a lot safer about jamming loams without having to worry about surgical. I start to assemble the combo, and he snapcaster + wear/tears my chalice again. He goes to surgical my loams and I in response surgical my own loam and fail to find. He is surprised. He blood moons me and I actually miss the chance to make a marit lage in response to kill since he tapped out for it, but I have the EE3 for it with the basic forest and mox diamond and am able to pull a win around afterwards.
Round 4: Burn
G1: My opponent is actually 2-1 in record so I get the pair down. I've seen and played against him before but can't remember what he's on. He leads with mountain (revised, mind you), suspend rift bolt, go. Ugh. Why.
G2: He has a quick start again and I find myself at a super low life total after a rift bolt, flame rift and some goblin guide. I drop glacial chasm to give me a tiny bit of breathing room with stage in play and depths in hand. I pay the two life upkeep and drop down to 6, passing the turn with the board of Mox Diamond x 2, Stage, Depths, Chasm. He draw and passes and with three cards in hand, I decide to go for it, and hope that he just has a fireblast and only sorcery spells. I make the marit lage, untap, sac chasm to upkeep and swing in and he dies. He shows me a hand of Fireblast + Chain Lightning + Price, but I only had two mox diamonds! He also tells me he had fireblast in game 1 when I crop roto'ed at 4 life and just blanked out. I'll take it.
Round 5: RG Lands (Tropical island + explosives MD)
G1: These games are pretty quick, and weird. We get off to the exact same start, tropical island -> Exploration -> land, and he wastelands me and casts a loam, to which I wasteland his karakas back and then bog him. He promptly bogs me back once I get my own loam in the yard and we're now both starved for resources at around 3-4 lands. I rip Intuition off the top, opting for another loam, ghost quarter and wasteland and he scoops it up. I noticed he had also played a port so it put me to believe he wasn't on ghost quarters.
G2: I have the option for a turn 2 tireless tracker, but mise it so I can crack a clue in case of a punishing fire. I get two clues from it, and swing in, and he punishing fires it. I crack a clue, and in response he fires it again. Boo. We get into resource battles again, and he goes to bog me. I crack my last clue in response to dredge my loam, and then ghost quarter out his basic forest and start to work on his other lands before I bog myself and he packs it up.
Round 6: ID
Round 7: ID
Quarterfinals: Goblins
G1: Ahh goblins. I've met this player in the top 8 and swiss here at CFB more times than I can count and they're always pretty swingy. He's on the play, and leads with Vial go. I have a fairly slow hand that was probably dead to Lackey but had stage + depths in it which they can't beat, so I kept. I go land drops while he adds another turn 2 vial, and on my third turn, I EE1 while his board is Vial@1, Vial@2 and nothing else. I figured if he had a lackey he would've dropped it ages ago and I don't really care about anything else. It's just a Mogg War Marshall, and although I have the depths, I drop a wasteland with a crop rotation in hand to EOT make a token for the win.
G2: I mull and find a really sketch hand with only two mana producing lands, being stage and grove, but also have a copy of EE and the Subterranean Tremors. He goes T1 lackey and I am really scared. I play grove go, and he attacks with lackey, putting in another one. He plays a port and says go. Ports me on upkeep and I am forced to stage and pass. He swings in with both lackeys and I am fortunate enough to only see a gempalm incinerator from them. He taps and plays Rest in Peace. Since this is the only window I really have, I tremors for 1, wiping his board, only for him to cast Magus of the Moon next turn, followed by a Goblin Chieftain which chip my life total away by 4. I eventually draw a punishing fire, and kill the magus, and then mazing the chieftain to preserve my life total, but he has ANOTHER magus following, in which I ghost quarter myself to get the basic forest in response. I draw a gamble before dying, and quickly gamble for anther PFire to deal with the magus again, and get to keep it off the 75% chance, pitching the EE. I grip the Rest in Peace, and punishing fire the magus again, and maze the chieftain again keeping myself at 3. My plan is to grove back the fire and kill the chieftain next turn and try to stabilize off the maze. I also have the stage depths combo in play but can't go due to wasteland. He ends up wastelanding my maze and hits me down to 3, and passes the turn with no cards in hand, porting on my upkeep, and in response I slam Marit Lage into play. I basically give him "Find Stingscourger or lose" and he draw an Arid Mesa. I guess with both magus of the moon, he had forgotten about the stage/depths since they were irrelevant and was focusing on getting through the maze since I was so low. Either way, punts were had.
Top 4 graciously split so I could go grab some delicious ramen with a group of friends, one who also made the top 4 split.
Split top 4 of ChannelFireBall's $3k (upped to $4k due to attendance) yesterday with RUG lands.
5-0 the Swiss then double draw into the top 8, beating Goblins in the quarterfinals. Didn't lose a game all day. Same list as before.
R1: RW Walker control/stompy
R2: Eldrazi and Taxes
R3: Miracles
R4: Burn
R5: RG Lands (small blue splash for ruins)
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tolaria West
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
2 Intuition
2 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
3 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Subterranean Tremors
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
RG is actually considered a bit stronger since it's more streamlined with cheaper tutors and can jam the 20/20 into play faster. The RUG version is more control-ey and can play through a lot more hate.
A RUG lands list won a 73 person Win-A-Mox Event last weekend. It's almost the same 75 as the list I posted a few weeks back, cutting a sphere and my sweeper for two surgical extraction, and a gamble in the main to go down to 75 cards.
3x Thespian’s Stage
1x Academy Ruins
3x Punishing Fire
4x Wasteland
4x Life from the Loam
1x Barbarian Ring
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Exploration
4x Crop Rotation
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Tolaria West
2x Dark Depths
3x Maze of Ith
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Forest
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Gamble
2x Tropical island
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Intuition
1x Karakas
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Trinisphere
3x Tireless Tracker
3x Chalice of the Void
The meta is pretty light on basics and in the matchups where port is good, it's usually not a great matchup anyways, so GQ strenghtens most matchups wasteland is good in which is quite a few, and also makes some matchups like miracles better since you can cut them off white pretty easily for example.