Arguably every clan is worse off save for the Abzan (As they are now less prone to internecine warfare and plots, no longer practice slavery, and are no longer bound to serve for all eternity as spirits, and serve a legitimately benevolent dragon lord). The Ojutai aren't bad off, and life in that brood is better than life in most places in the multiverse, but the Jeskai were still better off. The Temur are far worse off under Atarka. the Mardu were always a rampaging horde, but and least they had some room to grow and thrive, while under K they have no hope for any sort of stability, its all kill all the time. They are the Rakdos without the fun. Sultai to Silumger is actually a lateral move as I think about it. Its as terrible as it was under khans, except now instead of it being the Naga and Demons, its Dragons running the show. If anything, its a bit less cut throat as nobody wants to rise too high for fear of earning the wrong sort of attention from the dragons.
The other way around, actually:
- The Ojutai are fanatical, highly dogmatic cultists which are explicitly stated to be a lesser caste to the dragons, to the point that in whatever instance a dragon decides to murder a mortal they get away with it.
- The SIlumgar are fred from the racism of the Sultai (though in practise the dragons are obviously usually above the mortals, if for no other reason than inherent power)
Weren't the Silumgar stated to be the only Dragon Brood were a mortal could rise to hold a rank above a Dragon? I can't remember where I read it, but I'm faily sure that it's Canon.
Re: Lands having degraded under the Khans rule:
Have you taken a look at the basic land art for DTK? The Sultai palaces are in ruins. Not just overgrown, in literal ruins. The Mardu plains are plagued by rolling thunder clouds, the abzan deserts choked by sandstorms. The Jeskai mountain peaks are frozen over, the waterfalls lost. And the Temur tundra is charred by dragon fire and active volcanoes.
If you really want to use symbolism to explain how one timeline is better than the other, don't just focus on one timeline. Even if the basic land art is legitimately telling us that the plane suffered under the rule of the khans, it similarly shows us that the plane suffered under the rule of the dragons at least as much, if not even more.
The Ojutai aren't bad off, and life in that brood is better than life in most places in the multiverse
Except that non-dragons in Ojutai society have literally no rights? Off the top of my head I can think of a bunch of places in the multiverse where life is better than this.
Oh, I'm not arguing that KTK or DTK was better, I'm saying that the lands were the only evidence I saw that KTK was worse off than FRF.
But you're absolutely right, DTK hasn't been an improvement, and actually looks to be even worse, which, as was stated in the State of Design last year, left people feeling disappointed with how things were left.
So yeah, DTK seems to have screwed over the Clans, and Tarkir itself, completely. Although, I'd kind of like to see Narset convince Sarkhan that Tarkir is still broken, and they need to fix it by bringing the Dragons to heel, like they were under Ugin.
The thing about Tarkir is that it suffers severely from moral myopia. KTO is supposed to be awful and rectified in DOT. Instead, we get a world where clans and their identities have been subdued by five different flavours of draconic trants whose sole claim to legitimacy is some vague background vital effect in the land arts (and even then, Atarka is stated to be a threat to all wildlife...), yet Creative seems obsessed with parading about how much better it is.
Sarkhan likes it better, but that's really it. I've only seen comments that it's different and a reborn world, not that it's better.
True, but the issue stems from the fact that the playerbase percieves DTK as being worse than KTK, Wizards intentions be damned. Heck, look at StubbornOne's post further up the page; it defines the new Dragonbroods by what the Clans have lost, not what they have gained. The Clans are diminished by the Dragons, and that makes the story somewhat unsatisfying.
Really, the only evidence I've seen that things were worse under the Khans than they were during Fate Reforged is the change in how the Land-cards looked.
Compare KTK Scoured Barrens to Fate Reforged, for instance.
One is a barren desert, the other is inhabited.
Or the Jeskai Mountain or Sultai Forest.
Again, both have been reclaimed by nature, suggesting that the Clans are all in decline. But quite frankly, that's not a lot of support for life under the Dragonlords being better.
I think things would have worked better if during FRF, the Clans had been dual-colored, and the dragons had shared the primary color, but had the opposing color as well. So the Mardu are Red-Black, Kolaghan is Red-White, and then in DTK the Clans have all seen a shift in the prominence of which supporting color is more prominent. So the Mardu were RBw in Khans, then in DTK, the Kolaghan are RbW instead.
I'm just sad that the Eldrazi couldn't go to New Phyrexia and fight against the Phyrexians. I would gladly have the Pure Steel Mirrodins accept Emrakrul as their savior and go on crazy power trips to become Puresteel Eldrazi to fight against the Phyrexians.
I don't think that'd be a good idea, for one simple reason: who am I supposed to be rooting for?
Wrestling has the same problem when pitching Heel VS Heel matches; the audience has no one to cheer for, nobody to support, because at the end of the day, no matter who wins, we lose. Eldrazi VS Phyrexia would just be a question of whether we become food for extraterrestrial gods, or gets butchered and stitched together into a mockery of life. Lose/lose scenario.
If the Puresteel Mirrans were a third party using the conflict to try and reclaim their world, that'd be a different thing entirely.
I see your point, but not everything needs to be black or white. I enjoy these gray morality stories, and I'm sure many others do as well. Remember Stone Cold Steve Austin was one of the most popular face because he did heel things. Having gray morality and "doing what may be necessary" is always a fun little concept in stories. In this case, do the Mirrodin's accept Emrakrul and warp into Eldrazi and live to fight Phyrexia or do they refuse and get grafted into some machine?
Oh, I understand what you're going for, it's just that, well...
Eldrazi: devour entire Planes and their populations, stripping the Plane bare before moving on, like a swarm of extraterrestrial locusts.
Phyrexia: enslave, butcher, distort, torture and corrupt entire Planes and their populations before spreading to the next Plane to infect, like an intelligent virus.
This isn't gray morality: this is Black VS Black morality. If the Mirrans were allying with Bolas, or some other force that's not entirely inimical to their way of life, that'd be more akin to what you're looking for I think.
I'm just sad that the Eldrazi couldn't go to New Phyrexia and fight against the Phyrexians. I would gladly have the Pure Steel Mirrodins accept Emrakrul as their savior and go on crazy power trips to become Puresteel Eldrazi to fight against the Phyrexians.
I don't think that'd be a good idea, for one simple reason: who am I supposed to be rooting for?
Wrestling has the same problem when pitching Heel VS Heel matches; the audience has no one to cheer for, nobody to support, because at the end of the day, no matter who wins, we lose. Eldrazi VS Phyrexia would just be a question of whether we become food for extraterrestrial gods, or gets butchered and stitched together into a mockery of life. Lose/lose scenario.
If the Puresteel Mirrans were a third party using the conflict to try and reclaim their world, that'd be a different thing entirely.
Azor was also a Planeswalker if I recall right. So I could see him managing it. Not sure what it would mean though.
He was? All I remember is that he was one of the Paruns, the founders of the Guilds, but if he was an oldwalker, how could he not defeat the other Paruns? I mean, the entire argument for Sorin overreacting to Nahiri attacking him was that oldwalkers are essentially gods, so if Azor could bend the entire Multiverse that way, he should have been able to defeat the other Guilds with ease.
What was that about the Implicit Maze? That sounds kind of interesting.
Apparently, the original story for RTR was that solving the Implicit Maze would realign the multiverse with Ravnica at its center. They decided to go with the other plan. Likely for the best as I can only imagine the outrage here and elsewhere had that been the case.
Ravnica is the Jace of the planes so yeah makes sense to change the storyline because that sounds really stupid
Realigning the Multiverse sounds like something that'd require an oldwalker, probably several, and frankly, if Azor I was that powerful, there shouldn't be any reason the Azorius didn't conquer all of Ravnica; who's gonna stop them? The other Guilds should have been ground to dust under the magic that a hypothetical UW oldwalker could unleash against them.
Although... what's been happening on Dominaria since Time Spiral? It feels a bit like Ravnica's supplanted it already in the story, so maybe making it official would have worked, but like I said, it'd probably break the story if they tried it...
Nahiri will need to do something else to gauge if she's a threat or menace, independently on her own powers. Most of this damage and chaos done to Innistrad is just the handy work of others like crazy Avacyn, Emrakul, and Sorin deciding to kill Avacyn which allowed the full power of Emrakul to be unleashed on Innistrad.
Uhm... Emrakul showing up on Innistrad was engineered by Nahiri. And Avacyn was driven insane as an un/intended side-effect of that. I'd say she's a menace, much in the same way Lex Luthor would be for summoning Darkseid to kill Superman.
In the story where he kills Avacyn, Sorin explicitly states that he can't create another Archangel or another Helvault. He infused them with a part of his own essence, creating them was a once-in-a-lifetime feat that can't be repeated. So no, he definitely couldn't just break open the Helvault and make a new one.
He had around 900 years of pre-mending oldwalker powers to consider whether breaking the Helvault and having to replace it with another chunk of the Moon was worth releasing his student. Even if he couldn't replace the Helvault for whatsoever reasons (whether he doesn't have enough "essence", or the Moon ran out of rocks to be stable)... it was still a matter of prioritizing the "protection of his plane" over his student... a decision he dragged on for 1000 years before Ugin practically made him consider it. I don't think there's anything that could legitimately justify Sorin's callousness/selfishness in prioritizing the Helvault in its entirely over Nahiri.
Before people start jumping on me again for "defending Nahiri", because apparently saying Sorin's evil means so, let me clarify that Sorin's evil does not justify Nahiri's evil in any way, Nahiri is still evil (and more evil now by scale of destruction). I just find that any excuses Sorin could possibly muster up for leaving Nahiri in there for so many years cannot justify his callousness - not even the protection of Innistrad, considering Innistrad was surviving prior to the Avacyn/Helvault anyway.
Like I said earlier, any argument that's based on whether or not Sorin could/should have released Nahiri are pointless, because we don't know, and probably never will know, if he could have released her from the Helvault.
As for Spirits being immune to Emrakul... dunno. I mean, it's possible that Kamigawa would fare better against Emrakul than Innistrad has, but we'll, again, never know unless the Titan breaks free of the Moon. We can speculate, but that's also all it'd be; speculation.
My only big thought is: Why hasn't anyone tried to blame demons for this? I would have thought Thalia, Rem, or Traft would have asked, "What are the demons up to?" Sadly, they are completely missing from the equation. I don't need us to see demons (there is not enough space for them), but a reference to them or a character assuming demons are up to something seems like a possible conclusion. Again, not a big deal.
That's something I'd like to know as well; where the Hell is Ormendahl in all of this?
While there is no evidence that he can pull individuals out of the Helvault there's also no indication that he couldn't.
Which renders the argument kind of pointless, doesn't it? Sorin sealed Nahiri in the Helvault, but whether or not he could have pulled her back out is something we'll probably never know.
Here's a question; what do you think Nahiri's next step is? Go after Ugin? Return to Zendikar?
1) get rid of the Samurai subtype (it just doesn't work with any other block, and really, they're just Knights by another name).
2) do some kind of Sengoku Jidai story, since I'd love to see a MtG take on it (a Goblin warlord trying to become the new emperor would be hilarius).
3) make the spirit creatures and cards less busy; they were just an assault on the eyes in the original Kamigawa.
Still, I could definitively see a return to Kamigawa. I liked the plane, it just had some issues that need ironing out.
I would like a return but focusing on the mortal races (foxes, snakes, moonfolk, rats etc), maybe even make it a tribal block.
I would also like to see story focusing more on the legendary creatures as opposed to Planeswalkers (you know, like in the good old days).
Well...
The simplest way Nahiri can come to know how the Eldrazi were released is through Ugin, I suppose.
Ugin knows who was involved in the release of the titans and at the moment he is studying the remains of the titans on Zendikar , oblivious of the events on Innistrad.
Nahiri might come back to her old plane, see tht has not been completey destroyed and have a talk with Ugin about the Eldrazi and how they were released.
Obviously after trying to cut down the ancient dragon for not protecting Zendikar.
I would really like to read a possible dialog between Nahiri and Ugin about her luring Emrakul to Innistrad to make Sorin pay.
"Ugin, why didn't you show up to help me when the Eldrazi were breaking free 1000 years ago?! I'll destroy Tarkir as revenge for you not upholding your oath!"
"I've been in a coma for the last 1200 years."
"... well, now I look a little unhinged, don't I."
"Positively insane, to be frank."
Just curious, but judging from what has been previewed so far, are all monocolored dragons in the different broods going to be the same color. For example, are all the Dromoka Brood monocolored dragons going to be white? It just seems to be the case from what has been previewed thus far, which strikes me as weird. Anyone else getting the same vibes?
Weren't the Silumgar stated to be the only Dragon Brood were a mortal could rise to hold a rank above a Dragon? I can't remember where I read it, but I'm faily sure that it's Canon.
Oh, I'm not arguing that KTK or DTK was better, I'm saying that the lands were the only evidence I saw that KTK was worse off than FRF.
But you're absolutely right, DTK hasn't been an improvement, and actually looks to be even worse, which, as was stated in the State of Design last year, left people feeling disappointed with how things were left.
So yeah, DTK seems to have screwed over the Clans, and Tarkir itself, completely. Although, I'd kind of like to see Narset convince Sarkhan that Tarkir is still broken, and they need to fix it by bringing the Dragons to heel, like they were under Ugin.
True, but the issue stems from the fact that the playerbase percieves DTK as being worse than KTK, Wizards intentions be damned. Heck, look at StubbornOne's post further up the page; it defines the new Dragonbroods by what the Clans have lost, not what they have gained. The Clans are diminished by the Dragons, and that makes the story somewhat unsatisfying.
Compare KTK Scoured Barrens to Fate Reforged, for instance.
One is a barren desert, the other is inhabited.
Or the Jeskai Mountain or Sultai Forest.
Again, both have been reclaimed by nature, suggesting that the Clans are all in decline. But quite frankly, that's not a lot of support for life under the Dragonlords being better.
I think things would have worked better if during FRF, the Clans had been dual-colored, and the dragons had shared the primary color, but had the opposing color as well. So the Mardu are Red-Black, Kolaghan is Red-White, and then in DTK the Clans have all seen a shift in the prominence of which supporting color is more prominent. So the Mardu were RBw in Khans, then in DTK, the Kolaghan are RbW instead.
Oh, I understand what you're going for, it's just that, well...
Eldrazi: devour entire Planes and their populations, stripping the Plane bare before moving on, like a swarm of extraterrestrial locusts.
Phyrexia: enslave, butcher, distort, torture and corrupt entire Planes and their populations before spreading to the next Plane to infect, like an intelligent virus.
This isn't gray morality: this is Black VS Black morality. If the Mirrans were allying with Bolas, or some other force that's not entirely inimical to their way of life, that'd be more akin to what you're looking for I think.
I don't think that'd be a good idea, for one simple reason: who am I supposed to be rooting for?
Wrestling has the same problem when pitching Heel VS Heel matches; the audience has no one to cheer for, nobody to support, because at the end of the day, no matter who wins, we lose. Eldrazi VS Phyrexia would just be a question of whether we become food for extraterrestrial gods, or gets butchered and stitched together into a mockery of life. Lose/lose scenario.
If the Puresteel Mirrans were a third party using the conflict to try and reclaim their world, that'd be a different thing entirely.
He was? All I remember is that he was one of the Paruns, the founders of the Guilds, but if he was an oldwalker, how could he not defeat the other Paruns? I mean, the entire argument for Sorin overreacting to Nahiri attacking him was that oldwalkers are essentially gods, so if Azor could bend the entire Multiverse that way, he should have been able to defeat the other Guilds with ease.
Realigning the Multiverse sounds like something that'd require an oldwalker, probably several, and frankly, if Azor I was that powerful, there shouldn't be any reason the Azorius didn't conquer all of Ravnica; who's gonna stop them? The other Guilds should have been ground to dust under the magic that a hypothetical UW oldwalker could unleash against them.
Although... what's been happening on Dominaria since Time Spiral? It feels a bit like Ravnica's supplanted it already in the story, so maybe making it official would have worked, but like I said, it'd probably break the story if they tried it...
Uhm... Emrakul showing up on Innistrad was engineered by Nahiri. And Avacyn was driven insane as an un/intended side-effect of that. I'd say she's a menace, much in the same way Lex Luthor would be for summoning Darkseid to kill Superman.
Like I said earlier, any argument that's based on whether or not Sorin could/should have released Nahiri are pointless, because we don't know, and probably never will know, if he could have released her from the Helvault.
As for Spirits being immune to Emrakul... dunno. I mean, it's possible that Kamigawa would fare better against Emrakul than Innistrad has, but we'll, again, never know unless the Titan breaks free of the Moon. We can speculate, but that's also all it'd be; speculation.
That's something I'd like to know as well; where the Hell is Ormendahl in all of this?
Which renders the argument kind of pointless, doesn't it? Sorin sealed Nahiri in the Helvault, but whether or not he could have pulled her back out is something we'll probably never know.
Here's a question; what do you think Nahiri's next step is? Go after Ugin? Return to Zendikar?
1) get rid of the Samurai subtype (it just doesn't work with any other block, and really, they're just Knights by another name).
2) do some kind of Sengoku Jidai story, since I'd love to see a MtG take on it (a Goblin warlord trying to become the new emperor would be hilarius).
3) make the spirit creatures and cards less busy; they were just an assault on the eyes in the original Kamigawa.
Still, I could definitively see a return to Kamigawa. I liked the plane, it just had some issues that need ironing out.
Also, this.
"Ugin, why didn't you show up to help me when the Eldrazi were breaking free 1000 years ago?! I'll destroy Tarkir as revenge for you not upholding your oath!"
"I've been in a coma for the last 1200 years."
"... well, now I look a little unhinged, don't I."
"Positively insane, to be frank."