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    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    I'd like to see physical development in the characters. Time should pass, and they should age, and receive scars for difficult things they do. I'd be able to take the characters more seriously if Gideon's hand was crushed by Ulamog, and Jace's hair was going grey. As is, we're on the "Batman is always 30" model of storytelling, which isn't helpful here. If every block occurs an average of 5 years after the previous, it's been 50 years since they first popped up (as adults) in Lorwyn. I know they actively refuse to use such direct time-stamps, and I know they intend the blocks to fall closer together than that, but the stories that take place from block to block are not stories that happen overnight. Often they are plane-wide wars and cataclysms that would take months, or years to play out. For everything to have happened to these characters in these worlds, it seems like it would have had to have taken at least a decade of constant crap happening, and probably more. That takes a toll. And you're telling me Gideon still has all his eyes, fingers, and toes after jumping into every battle he can planeswalk to? Nonsense. I know they want to keep their main characters sexy, but physical indicators of time passage feel more genuine, and give players a way to track characters that they like, without causing stagnancy.

    Sarkhan is an example of a character who you can really track from iteration to iteration, given only the cards. Not to say these were handled perfectly, but each card does represent the character at an important point in his arc, and each feels meaningfully different from the last. This is true of none of the Gatewatch members.

    All that aside, any major loss for the Gatewatch will lend credibility to the story, and I think we can expect one in the next block. Or this:


    The thing is, blocks don't take place years apart. Each block will (usually) lead into the next, and, before the Gatewatch, multiple consecutive block stories might have been happening simeltaneously. There's no reason why RTR, Theros, and Tarkir couldn't have been happening at the same time. Or maybe not. Idk. Creative has been very evasive as far as an official timeline. Or official maps. Probably so that they don't contradict themselves. They have plenty of contradictions and retcons even without having to juggle maps or timelines.

    But yeah, scars and injuries should definitely show up at least on occasion. These are characters who are constantly involved in violent conflicts, after all.

    The other thing that bothers me is how planeswalkers often wear the same outfit all the time. Even on planes where it would look out of place. As if the Gatewatch characters didn't feel cartoonish enough already, they need to have exactly one outfit to wear constantly to top it off!

    Gideon seems to have new armor for Amonkhet, which is a step in a right direction, but Chandra and Nissa still have only worn one set of clothing ever, despite their extremely high numbers of cards. Then there's Jace, who put on a jacket once for SOI. Other than that, nothing. Liliana seems to have two different dresses, which is better than most characters, but it still seens really out of character for her not to have a lot more than that. Ajani at least gained Elspeth's cloak (and then lost it for the art on the Conquest of Power packaging). Off the top of my head, the only walkers to actually change appearancw and clothing appropriately over time and across planes would be Tezzeret (younger and original arm for 1st card, older with Bolas markings on head and rebuilt arm for 2nd card, Consulate robes for 3rd and 4th) and Sarkhan (as you said, he actually shows change over time).

    On the other hand, they also need to keep characters consistent in certain ways. You can't honestly say that Jace, Memory Adept and Oath of Jace look anything alike. That's just an artistic screw up though, which happens when you have different artists. But the artists probably should copy previous cards' art to get a character's face and hair right, for consistency's sake. However, copying the clothing time after time is just lazy and makes it really unrealistic. I'm sorry, but you can't expect me to believe that Jace, who is super rich and basically runs an entire plane's government, can't get himself or his friends a secomd outfit. Seriously.


    It's a little troubling from a story perspective as well, since they're still maintaining the "masquerade" that they're not planeswalkers when on other planes, yet do nothing to try and blend in with local fashions. It's kind of hard to believe that you're native to Amonkhet when you're dressed like a Bantian knight, Kaladeshi engineer, or Innistradi noblewoman respectively.

    And if the characters aren't recognizable without their clothes, then they're poorly designed characters in the first place.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from MinaHarcourt »
    The Kraul bugdude from C16 comes to mind. He is, yet again, something with sacrifice.
    Or Kambal. Yet again WB has something to do with lifegain/lifeloss. They really need to shake things up.
    It's getting annoying.


    That's a game mechanic, though. This is about how the Gatewatch are implemented in the story.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from Xeruh »
    Quote from MinaHarcourt »
    The concept is interesting but execution is terrible. Nobody is ever truly in danger. And nobody's particularily fleshed out. Gideon's answer to the Eldrazi titans was "MORE SURRAL!" and Chandra's answer was "MORE FIRE!" The problem is that they could be replaced and they wouldn't be missed. They don't have anything particularily interesting about them. The problem with basing characters in the color pie is that they become interchangable to a large extent. Gideon and Serra may be two different people, but they have the same values and ideals.

    The more I think about it, the more I feel that having just five colors is far too restrictive.


    Then you don't pay much attention to the color pie. There is a lot of versatility in each of the five colors. The issue is that they purposely made the Gatewatch as generic as possible, but that doesn't mean there isn't more depth. It's like basing all Mexican food off of tacos.


    Yeah, the color pie isn't the problem: the Gatewatch being the most generic interpretations of the five colors are. I wouldn't be surprised if the design docs for the Gatewatch's personalities literally just lists their respective colors generic attributes (White = Moral, Order, Uncreative, Peace, Law, etc).

    Come to think of it, the "uncreative" part would certainly explain Gideon's actions in BfZ (MOAR SURRAL!!1)...
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from Duke Daemon »
    Reading how they killed something gods couldn't is like reading a children's novel on how a teenager defeats Chronos where Zeus could not.....


    I liken it to having Batman's origin-story pitting him against Darkseid - it's incredibly difficult to make the hero winning, much less winning a non-phyrric victory, look plausible because the villain has been built up as being in an entirely different league. The initial buildup was that Neowalkers are not the borderline omnipotent godlike beings that the Oldwalkers were, and when Nahiri and Sorin couldn't kill the Titans (let's presume that they at least tried Before Ugin suggested the sealing, otherwise the story makes even less sense)... the Gatewatch are ants, and the Eldrazi Titans are boots.

    My biggest problem with the Gatewatch is that they're being written as comicbook characters (again, Jacetus League), but the wins they got early on were too big - what's the point in pitting Spider-man against Kingpin, a human crimelord, when he's already fought Thanos the Mad Titan and beaten him clean? Any fear that they could lose has already been thoroughly squashed.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Amonkhet General Discussion
    Quote from cyberium_neo »
    The rest, our *cough* Gatewatch staples.


    ... am I the only one who's bothered by the fact that Gideon's outfit got redesigned, and Nissa's still wearing the same outfit she's worn since BfZ? At least try to have her blend in!
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Magic Story: Kaladesh & Aether Revolt (No Spoiler Discussion)
    Quote from Perkunas687 »
    Quote from Perkunas687 »
    Quote from Northjayhawk »
    I agree that something bad is likely to happen to Gideon, but I think "killing the indestructible guy to show Bolas' power" is too simple. Control magic is a key Bolas ability. If you are faced with a powerful walker who is indestructible, why kill him? Seems like a waste, just take over his mind, make him your servant, and send him back at the gatewatch.


    This is why I would have liked to have read something from Tezzeret's perspective. Sarkhan didn't have Bolas tattoos on his forehead, but he was working for Bolas. Tezzeret has the tattoos, but does that mean the tattoos are magic that keeps him under control and in line?

    If so, can Bolas apply those markings to anyone to make them his? That would be a tragic outcome for Gideon that wouldn't require his death.


    Using the word god in italics as I'm not sure if these are god-gods or planeswalkers-posing-as-gods.


    That would be pretty neat, Bolas' planeswalker pawns living as 'gods' on Amonkhet until Bolas sends them out on a task here or there. I still want to see wildman Ramaz as a card somewhere!

    EDIT: It would also be hilarious to have the Gatewatch go there, only to be met by another crew of planeswalkers led by Bolas. "Whoops."


    Great, it's the InJacetus League.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Magic Story: Kaladesh & Aether Revolt (No Spoiler Discussion)
    Quote from jace19 »
    Quote from jace19 »
    I see Ajani being kept out of the loop, the Gatewatch goes, they are losing, he comes back and helps them win, but is fatally injured in the process, before dying he tells them about Elspeth and eventually they go save her, with Gideon sacrificing himself and Elspeth being the new white walker.

    Obviously that won't happen because the members of the Gatewatch have plot armor so strong you can't take any threat to them seriously and since primal gods are chumps now no threat matters even a little bit and they are immortal, but that is how I see an arc written with ANY attempt to be taken seriously going.

    this week's chapter was actually quite good, well written and the bit with Nissa was cute Smile
    chapters can be good, but the ARCS are written pretty much for children, no threat, no engagement, playing it extremely safe, and a little bit of language doesn't disguise that
    Which gods are chumps?


    The first ones that come to mind are the Eldrazi. They were sold to us as Lovecraftian, so above gods, all-powerful, you can fight the spawn but never even get the attention of the titans, much less hurt them in any way. 3 oldwalkers (who have been called gods in their own right) and three fairly serious ones at that took DECADES to build a prison that would barely contain shadows of the Eldrazi, the idea that what, 4(?) planeswalkers of the modern age could KILL 2 of them just by adding more fire is honestly an insult to the intelligence of readers, even modern Sorin could just walk into the room and kill the entire Gatewatch. and the whole 'the energy of all of Zendikar' doesn't change things, the Eldrazi should have been trapped with what was already made. better, they should have won, destroyed Zendikar and driven the Gatewatch away, maybe with a death. I'm actually a fan of Chandra, my favorite of the Gatewatch by a mile, and i like Nissa, but on their very best day with every pyromancer from Keral Keep helping them, Ulamog should have been 'oh look, a sparkler, OM NOM NOM!!!'


    I'll be honest, this really bothered me:

    "Well," said Gideon quietly. "What do you all think? Is he right? Do we need more information and more allies before we go to Amonkhet?"

    There was a moment of dead silence.

    "No," said Chandra. "We beat three Eldrazi and we beat Tezzeret. Let's hit him hard, now."


    Because now, there are only two ways ths can go, and neither works for me. Either:

    A) they lose to Bolas, which is ridiculous when you consider that they managed to KILL two of the Eldrazi - creatures so powerful it took THREE of Bolas' Oldwalker peers just to contain them. Not kill them, but stick them in what's basically the Cthulhu version of a drunk tank.

    or

    B) they defeat Bolas, and we have no villains left that can be taken seriously - WotC will have to start Villain Sue-ing it out the ears to create a credible threat for the GW.

    And it all ties back to how they built up the Eldrazi to be these borderline unstoppable Eldritch Abominations, only to then have two of them get killed by four meddling kids, who didn't even have the decency to bring along a mangy dog for the occassion - yes, BFZ was so poorly handled it's poisoned the well for me.

    ... also, did Chandra equate f***ing Tezzeret with the Eldrazi?!
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from yujipooji »
    Pretty much this. No one is arguing that evil in rakdos is not the norm, myself included. The inclination is there, yes. Aggression in red, self-indulgence and "power at all costs" mentality in black. Combining those will always predispose those characters to hedonistic, anarchic behavior. But a predisposition does not 100% of the time translate to reality. Exceptions may be unlikely, but not impossible. I'm lorwyn illiterate though since I quit during that time, so I didn't know boggarts were not evil. :p Then again, an "auntie" already sounds like they deviated from normal B/R characters.


    Wort, Boggart Auntie is the first good character in B/R mana that has gotten a card, although there is no real backstory to Wort so make of that what you will. Also, yes, Aunties do deviate from the norm of that dual color. They are literally like a parental figure to the other boggarts.

    Boggart warrens are led by nominal leaders called Aunties. The Auntie is usually the oldest boggart in the warren, and is usually female (some are male, yet are still called "Auntie"). The Auntie knows many tales, like fables, that they tell to educate their warren, pass on crucial boggart teachings, and adjudicate disputes. The most famous Auntie fables are about Auntie Grub, a folk hero to the boggarts and probably a real ancestor. Auntie Grub's tales are particularly helpful for informing young boggarts about racial enemies, dangerous predators, poisonous plants and fungus, and the like.


    It's also funny that, for all that B/R mana being the colors of "opposition to norms and society", even the Boggarts had laws. Well, A law: no object or sensation shall be hoarded by an individual boggart upon pain of exile.

    That new recipe-pie that you stole from the Kithkin? Gotta share it, or you're booted out of the warren.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Aether Revolt General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed Here)
    Quote from Jay13x »
    Quote from wadprime »
    You're absolutely right about Amonkhet though. We don't know Bola's relationship with the plane. We know it's ruled by him, but we don't know anything about the people there. Even if they do want to be saved from his clutches, it doesn't change the fact that Amonkhet is Bolas's home turf.
    I think it's more likely that they actually like Bolas. Wouldn't that be a culture shock?


    Yeah, that'd be a subversion, wouldn't it, if the people of Amonkhet actually view Bolas as a good guy.

    I would be sooo thrilled if we got something that was thematically like the end of Superman's fight with Darkseid: even when the good guys win, they lose.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Eldrazi vs Phyrexians - Who's The Tougher Enemy?
    I'd like to say Eldrazi, but after how they got handled in BFZ, they're no longer a threat that I can take seriously. So for me, Phyrexia wins by default.
    Posted in: Opinions & Polls
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    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from yujipooji »
    Quote from yujipooji »
    I would say the gatewatch are great. I would like more small moments with them like we had with Nissa and Chandra as it was quite heartwarming. Chandra being RG makes sense.

    The following is spoiler-tagged in order to not heavily derail the discussion and keep it politely and neatly small for other forum-goers experience.
    RB will not always be villains. Kolaghan was arguably the least villainous of the Dragonlords, and was rather decent overall.

    They care about the law when breaking it means they dont get what they want. They care about what they want, but part of that is the ones they love.


    I think you are mixing RG philosophy with RB. The least villainous of the dragonlords is Atarka. Atarka's brood cares about one thing: Food. As long as that condition is satisfied, they are by and large the least harmful to the humans. The dragons spend most of the their time, aside from eating, fighting amongst themselves in order to make themselves stronger. Dissent has only started amongst this clan because of visions. Not exactly by the doing of the dragons within this tribe.

    "The dragonlord became a fearsome leader, using violence, cruelty, and her trademark unpredictability to keep the clan in line... Unlike the Mardu, the Kolaghan follow no code of honor. Their ambitions are to raze the other Clans down and bring ruin wherever they go. The Kolaghan pine for freedom, from civilization, from limits, from any form of honor or law."

    RB is selfish and cares about itself.

    Even Dromoka's brood is not necessarily the nicest in town. As remember Anafenza? She had the gall to take part in her families old traditions and what was her sentence? Execution. Because she died the way she did as a martyr, their is now a quiet growing amount of dissent going amongst the people as they now partake in the old traditions like Anafenza did and she watches over them as a kin-tree spirit.

    Quote from yujipooji »
    I do get the "not all as*holes are bad people argument", and yeah it will be a stretch to say that ALL r/b characters will always be villains. But given the nature of rakdos colors, there may be situations wherein they may not necessarily be villains, but they will always be villainized by those who do not share their ideals.


    Oh? The majority of RB cards are filled with some of the most evil stuff out there. The only character who even matches close to Phantom King's description is Olivia Voldaren BUT even she enjoys and partakes in bloodsports.

    RB is the the most villainous color. You want more? The only two cards in the entire game that aren't even about such things are Ghostflame and Ghostflame Slivir. As far as I am concerned Qaanglaagix is actually correct on this matter. RB is not something misunderstood like B tends to be, it is in fact perfectly understood. Its about: Hedonism, pain, mayhem, violence, arson, torture, blood, cruelty, revenge, suffering, desecration, demons, bombing, fearmongering, ritualistic sacrifices, spitefulness, destruction of public property. If MTG was a game marketed to an older demographic, it would include a lot more unsavory things in there that would make people squirm.

    black mana , WB, BU or GB are more likely to get heroes(/anti-heroes) than RB and some of those have already had heroes(/anti-heroes). RB is and always has been the villain's color for the past 20+ years of MTG.

    Also to nip this in the bud: Luffy's Gang as BR? Yeah I will agree with you here. I would argue that with the crew's combined traits they are WUBRG.

    Also to nip in the bud ahead of time: white mana characters doesn't necessarily get along with white mana characters and their can be differences on how things are handled. Such as with Heliod and Elspeth who are both mono-white but held different views and the Leonin of Theros who also held different views from both of those two who are also mono-white. Lets also not forget Ajani who at that time is GW and went all iconoclast on the gods after what they did to his friend Elspeth and hated them, particularly Heliod, for what happened to his beloved friend. Yes that is right. A white mana character can break laws and traditions if they believe that those very things put in place by another white mana character is unhealthy and hinders society as a whole and that society would be better off.

    BR breaks laws and traditions because it hindered THEM, not those AROUND them.


    I don't disagree with any of your points. B/R is the most villainous color by nature. But all B/R CHARACTERS being villains is not a generalization I want to make as of now. If you can help me prove kolaghan is a straight up villain in the khan's arc, then I'm with you all the way lol!


    Aside from using cruelty and unpredictability to turn the Mardu people into a roving band of honorless bloodthirsty cannibals who seek to ruin civilization? Where they must abandon their sick, crippled and old aet Kolaghan's request? Where they are browbeated by Kolaghan and her brood with getting electrified by their breaths if they fail to keep up with the dragons or try to become a deserter?

    None of the Dragon Broods are good. They are all a kind of evil in one the various forms. Oujtai's evil for instance is a strict and regimented learning through philosophy and education that prohibits creative thinking. (aka brain washing youths through education and teaching them not to expand their minds to the possibilities.)


    Oh wow I didn't know Kolaghan did those things. Where was that explicitly stated? I'd love to read up that lore.


    The Planeswalkers guide to Dragons of Tarkir might be a good start.

    I should note - with regards to the Rakdos/ B/R mana - that MaRo's said in the past that viewing the Guilds of Ravnica as being the only way a Color Pair can be interpreted is wrong, and that, since Magic is a combat-oriented game, you'll usually see the more violent elements of the Guilds displayed in the cards. The Rakdos have been stated to run quite a few legitimate businesses around Ravnica (restaurants and the like), and in the original Ravnica books, one of Agrus Kos' allies is a Rakdos Imp/Goblin, if memory serves.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from yujipooji »
    RB will not always be villains. Kolaghan was arguably the least villainous of the Dragonlords, and was rather decent overall.

    They care about the law when breaking it means they dont get what they want. They care about what they want, but part of that is the ones they love.


    I do get the "not all as*holes are bad people argument", and yeah it will be a stretch to say that ALL r/b characters will always be villains. But given the nature of rakdos colors, there may be situations wherein they may not necessarily be villains, but they will always be villainized by those who do not share their ideals.


    So, heroic B/R mana would be the Strawhat Crew from One Piece?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from Qanglaagix »
    A LOT of her actions are fueled by hotheaded, instinctual and emotion-driven reactions and she often dislikes/hates authority as they tend to take away various freedoms from her.

    Chandra is way too much of a rebellious person to be part of Boros or Iroas ( R/W mana ) . Which is what Gideon is like. Soldiers, martial prowess, order, etc.
    She also is not very Rakdos or Mogis ( B/R mana ). Which is kind of known for sadistic pleasure, brutal maimings, wanton violence, etc.
    She is not really an Izzet or Keranos person ( U/R mana ) . Because she does not have the personality of Dack Fayden or Ral Zarak.

    So where does that leave her? She would be right at home among the Gruul R/G mana or maybe in one of Xenagos's revels if she was into that.

    Quote from Gruuls Biggest Strengths and Weaknesses »
    Red/Green's greatest strength is the force of its brutality. With nothing making it hold anything back, Red/Green packs a powerful punch. Even colors with answers to Red/Green often fall to the speed and raw power of Red/Green. To paraphrase a famous pro player (Dave Price): "There are wrong answers; there are never wrong threats."

    Red/Green's greatest weakness is its complete lack of foresight or preparation. If Red/Green's Plan A doesn't work, Red/Green has problems because it didn't bother to come up with a Plan B. Heck, plan A wasn't that well thought out either. In addition, Red/Green has problems solving things that aren't straight-forward. Once the option of blowing it up and then hitting it are exhausted, Red/Green starts to run out of options.


    Probably. My orignal post putting her in ( U/R mana ) was mostly pigeonholing for the sake of color balance (though I do seem to recall Chandra being a little grabby with tings that weren't hers...Fuel for the Fire?), and she'd more than likely be ( B/R mana ) or ( R/G mana ). Though, now that I think about it, Ajani not being WRG strikes me as a little weird; last I remember, he was becoming something of an iconoclast on Theros, wich sounds VERY R.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from wadprime »
    Quote from OathboundOne »
    Quote from Mangod »


    Well, that position would have probably been filled by either Liliana (pretty self-explanatory) or Nissa (who was originally presented as an Elvish supremacist ("Nissa was first presented as as a proud nature-mage who believed that elves are the pinnacle race of the multiverse, and the Joraga the greatest of them all.") with ties to the elves of Lorwyn, and who dabbled in black mana ("Her planar travels took her to the sunny world of Lorwyn where elves thrived and ruled uncontested. There she met elves who fully embraced their role as the pinnacle of nature, using both life magic and its deadly shadow to assert their primacy. This encounter led Nissa to experiment with black mana on her own terms, in secret, using it to complement her own elvish teachings."), before that all got retconned). But Wizards unwillingness to keep those traits leave the groups interactions feeling a bit... toothless.


    Right?! The fact they're trying to retcon that is so ridiculous. That alone is what made Nissa so interesting. She went from an actual racist, to realizing her ways of thinking were wrong, and (if they hadn't tried messing with it) would eventually lead to her joining the Gatewatch, where she'd be helping people from other planes (and races), and working alongside people of a different race than her! It would mean such huge important character development, and something we could admire and believe in. When you take her entire backstory and retcon it, she literally just becomes another boring token green mana character.. Frown


    Agreed. Supremacist Nissa and her integration into the Gatewatch could have had so much potential. It's a crying shame.


    Agreed! Apart from not particularly liking the majority of the Gatewatch characters, I firmly believe that color shifts are the best way to show character growth and make characters interesting. Not that mono colored characters can't be interesting, but when a character just so typically embodies what they're supposed to represent, it's just predictable and boring. Had we gotten a green/black version of a young Nissa in Origins, I would've loved it! This is in part why Ajani is one of my favorite planeawalkers. He's grown as a character and his cards and color shifts in his cards show it. He's gone from being a shunned member of his pride, to an angry and vengeful warrior, to a leader and mentor. That's been in the past 4-5(?) years of in universe time? Sarkhan, too, has shown character growth, emphasized by his color shifts - each card representing a new outlook, but still being the same dragon obsessed character. I understand the need to start with and make sure all 5 colors were represented, but as we get more characters I really do hope to see color shifts among the origins 5. That, or to see them replaced and/or killed off.


    ... what do you think the Gatewatch characters personalities would have been if they were all multicolored? Like...

    W/g Gideon?
    U/w Jace?
    B/r Liliana?
    R/u Chandra?
    G/b Nissa?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from Cthulhooo »
    Don't you guys think gatewatch would be way cooler if they added more interesting anti-hero characters? Even some episodic or temporary ones. For example a Phyrexian planswalker (This has to be a thing) that got tired of their crappy ideology and now wants to fight corruption on any world. Or some shady guy that is eager to help but always wants something in return. Or even a typical antagonist that just joins them because there is greater menace to purge. Something that spices up that pure, feelgood justice league flair.


    Well, that position would have probably been filled by either Liliana (pretty self-explanatory) or Nissa (who was originally presented as an Elvish supremacist ("Nissa was first presented as as a proud nature-mage who believed that elves are the pinnacle race of the multiverse, and the Joraga the greatest of them all.") with ties to the elves of Lorwyn, and who dabbled in black mana ("Her planar travels took her to the sunny world of Lorwyn where elves thrived and ruled uncontested. There she met elves who fully embraced their role as the pinnacle of nature, using both life magic and its deadly shadow to assert their primacy. This encounter led Nissa to experiment with black mana on her own terms, in secret, using it to complement her own elvish teachings."), before that all got retconned). But Wizards unwillingness to keep those traits leave the groups interactions feeling a bit... toothless.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Lore spoilers from AER artbook
    Honestly, while I've enjoyed a lot of WotC's storytelling over the years (some stories more than others, naturally), I've always felt that they were better at creating worlds than they were at doing anything with them - basically, I enjoy reading the Planeswalker's Guide to *_____* articles more then I do reading the storyarcs they do about the planes. Self-contained stories like Mercy are usually more entertaining to me than Reading about the Gatewatch from week to week.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Magic Story: Kaladesh & Aether Revolt (No Spoiler Discussion)
    Quote from user_938036 »
    I hate to bring this up again but it needs to be said: no one is dying. At all. Since Origins only four characters with cards have died: Avacyn, Brisela, Kozilek, and Ulamog. That's all. Only antagonists. And no one at all in Kaladesh.

    It honestly feels like these stories are being written for eight year olds who can't handle any of their favorite characters dying. As the story needed anything else to make it feel more like a superhero comic for children than a legitimate fantasy story.

    If no one is killed by Bolas in Amonkhet, not a single named character, then I'm done with the story.
    I've never really understood this stance. What long running serializations kill off characters with any regularity(besides GoT Way too many people die in that, it seems more for shock than plot most times)?

    I don't want to sound rude or condescending I'm honestly curious because enough people here have voiced such an opinion that it leads me to believe that (semi-main or important side)characters do in fact die fairly often in other stories that I simply don't read. I'm open to the possibility that I don't expose myself to the proper sources but currently it just sounds ridiculous that no one goes about killing important characters with any regularity(besides that one) and a significant number of people expect it here.

    If you just mean significant consequences like death then I can understand where you're coming from a bit better, but considering we're still on only the third story it still seems rather premature.


    I actually think it's a little funny when you compare the carded character deaths in the Gatewatch blocks (Battle for Zendikar, Shadows over Innistrad and Kaladesh) to the Odyssey/Onslaught blocks.

    Of the characters in the Odyssey/Onslaught block who got actual cards:

    Kamahl
    Jeska/Phage
    Balthor
    Chainer
    Braids
    The Cabal Patriarch
    Seton
    Thriss
    Kirtar
    Pianna
    Teroh
    Eesha
    Aboshan
    Laquatus
    Llawan
    Ixidor
    Akroma
    Karona

    by the end of that story arc, only Jeska is alive, with Thriss', Llawan's and Eesha's fates unknown - everyone else is dead. Compare to BfZ, where I don't think a single carded character outside of Ulamog and Kozilek bit it, or SoI, where we can add Avacyn, Bruna and Gisela (Brisela), and... I can't think of anyone else (did I miss someone?).

    It feels like the Gatewatch might have gone too far in the opposite direction from the Odyssey/Onslaught blocks; if Odyssey had too much death, then the Gatewatch hasn't had enough death - or just serious consequences. When fighting Eldritch Abominations that the godlike Oldwalkers couldn't kill conventionally, by chanelling an entire planes worth of mana, and the only consequence is that the two Neowalkers involved felt a little under the weather for a week? Yeah, that diminishes the ending, the enormity of what the characters have accomplished.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 5

    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Yeah see I wouldn't have minded the Eldrazi on Innistrad -- would've made the gothic thing be way more Lovecraftian, which is never a complaint! But as you said, Eldrazi were ruined for me. We got to see Zendikar, a plane booming with cool lands and plants, turn into a tiring boring plane overtaken by Eldrazi (a "HUGE THREAT" that were easily taken down by 4 twenty something year olds? what???)

    Killing Avacyn was ssuuuuch a huge mistake. I know we'll return to the plane SOMEDAY due to how much people love it and the loose ends they left, so maybe they'll find a way to bring her back..? Maybe..? Hopeful wishes haha.

    Also, on topic, how freaking AMAZING was the art for new Emrakul?! I'm still impressed, months later!


    Well, Sigarda is still alive, but not as strong as Avacyn. So there's still an Angel around for the "Good Guys" to build their Church around, but she's not gonna be strong enough to keep someone like Emrakul from showing up.

    But like 5colors said, apparently there was supposed to be a block between BfZ and SoI that got scrapped or shuffled to a later date, leaving us with two Eldrazi stories back-to-back, which left people feeling bored with the bloody things.

    And I'll repeat my argument until I die: the Gatewatch should NOT have been able to kill the Eldrazi. The Titans had recieved too much build-up as a threat for "4 twenty something year olds" to credibly kill them. Defeat, like how the Fantastic Four have defeated or redirected Galactus, certainly, but not outright kill.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from OathboundOne »
    Quote from Yatsufusa »
    Ugin imprisoned the Eldrazi because they were destroying worlds and killing millions. He didn't kill them because he feared even greater catastrophe.


    Call me skeptical, but I don't think Ugin really cares about the Eldrazi destroying worlds. Yes, he said he didn't want Tarkir to be next, but I suspect even that was just a "supporting excuse" he used to make Sorin more enthusiastic about the whole imprisonment.

    Yes, he ultimately trapped the Eldrazi because he feared greater catastrophe, but that was pretty much the whole and only reason - he probably wanted to see what happens to the multiversal ecosystem without the Eldrazi but didn't want it to be irreversible just in case he couldn't deal with the actual consequences (which has its own loose ends because it's based on the assumption that releasing the Eldrazi would fix the problem in time, but that's another issue). Everything else he said ("for the good of the multiverse" and "let's protect our homeplanes") honestly could have been lies he made up just to convince the other 2 oldwalkers because he needed them to assist him for his actual purpose.

    He way less temperamental than Bolas for sure, but the way he expressed his "disappointment" with Jace/The Gatewatch after UlaKozi were killed was literally "You ruined my experiment, I've no choice but to fall back to my last defenses against whatever might have emerged from my experiment now" (of course he put it in a more condescending way, but the point is the same).

    While I can understand why people are inclined to believe Ugin, I'm skeptical (and paranoid) enough to not take his words at face value, because other than his words, we know as much of his motives as we know the purpose of the Eldrazi. We (as the readers) have not yet been treated to his internal thought process and that is enough for me to not trust Ugin.


    I think it's one thing to say that you don't trust Ugin. (You shouldn't, honestly. We don't know enough about him really.) But it's another thing entirely to imply that you might trust Bolas more. (Unless you just mean that you can always trust in Bolas to be Bolas; load your family into a bus, throw you under that bus, and then set that bus on fire, the second it looks to be in his own best interest.)


    While I don't think Ugin was lying, it is a fair point: Bolas is more predictable in that we know he'll do what's best for Bolas, and everyone else can just deal with it - so he's on the Evil spectum of the Alignment Chart. Ugin, however, we don't really know whether he's on the Neutral or Good spectrums yet.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Magic Story: Kaladesh & Aether Revolt (No Spoiler Discussion)
    Quote from Caranthir »
    Well,I read it thoroughly.

    Alas,no matter how Doug tries,he is not,and will never be a good storywriter.

    It just seems that everything he writes ends up a little off. Too fast pacing. Too cheesy joke. Too descriptive moment,too bad dialogue. A word redundant here,missing there. And when you have the awesome work of Chris L'Etoile with the same characters to compare,this reads like a second-rate fanfic.

    It would also help not trying to cram as many things as possible into one story...and if you really have to,then let someone else than Doug write it. This read a lot of like Battle of Thraben - resulting in not enough time for everything and important things happening too fast (death of Brisela,for example).

    So Dovin just...planeswalked away. And Hungry Flames were just...toothless.

    One thing left me wondering. We are practically at the end of story. Battle is next,and then epilogue (Dark Intimations). Aether Revolt hits shelves this Friday. WHAT are we supposed to read whole February and March?!


    Hopefully? The Gatewatch characters going about their daily routines - I mean, what do these people do when they're not kicking Eldritch Abominations in the junk or getting swept up in societal powerstruggles?

    I'd just like to see Jace do some Guildpact work, since that's kind of his job, and let the other five members just... hang out. Show us what they do when they're off the clock.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Magic Story: Kaladesh & Aether Revolt (No Spoiler Discussion)
    Quote from OathboundOne »
    Mmmm, yeah. I can see it now:

    "I spent FIVE THOUSAND YEARS watching as the mere presence of the Eldrazi ravaged my plane and my people because YOU TOLD ME they couldn't be killed, AND IT WAS ALL A LIE!"


    To be fair, Nahiri and Sorin tried to kill the Eldrazi before; if two Oldwalkers couldn't do it... well, I'd probably be safe to assume they couldn't be killed. I don't think Ugin lied; he probably assumed it couldn't be done.

    However, while we're on the subject; using the Hedron Network to make Ulamog and Kozilek mortal and killable (which I consider to be a complete Deus Ex Machina, but still)... how did Nahiri not know it could do that? She BUILT the bloody things!
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 1

    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from Teysa_Karlov »
    Quote from Perkunas687 »
    Quote from JZL_Reloaded »
    Quote from Pollaski »
    Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.


    Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.

    Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.


    Technically, the Weatherlight crew was around for only *two* blocks, plus two separate sets (Weatherlight and Masques). And in those two blocks, almost everyone of any consequence almost died or died. There were real stakes. Loved ones were dying, people were tortured into hideousness, Karn was forced to constantly crush moggs while he was trying to be a pacifist. Mirri gave up her life for someone she loved. Crovax became a vampire and planar threat. Squee was tortured and killed over and over. Threats were everywhere. Anyone could die (and did).

    In the three GW blocks thus far, no one has died. Gideon was almost drowned, but not dead. Chandra was beat up, but not dead. Jace almost went crazy, but didn't. I have no fear, concern, or caring about their wellbeing. That is what I call plot armor, and even if one did die, I am hardly as invested as I was in the Weatherlight crew, which had far more 'real' characters to me.

    Shrug.


    The problem with that logic is that "death is cheap" rapidly gives way to "DIAA (Darkness Induced Audience Apathy)".

    "If there is zero hope of the good guys winning, why should the audience care?"

    Say that the Eldrazi did get some hard hits in. Gideon, Chandra are both killed. Jace is driven insane beyond any ability to use his abilities (or even turns evil). Nissa is murdered by Ob Nixilis. Needless to say, Zendikar is screwed, as is Innistrad. Two planes are about to bite the dust, unless you believe Liliana could single-handedly save Innistrad.

    So why should the audience care? When every battle turns out like Mirrodin, with the good guys getting their rear ends kicked, the drama shifts from "the heroes can't lose" to "the heroes are incompetent/can't win".

    At that point, why would anyone become invested in the survivors or the story?


    1) The "Death is Cheap" trope refers to death being treated as a slap on the wrist: what you're describing is the transition from "Anyone Can Die" to "Everyone WILL Die" to "DIAA".

    2) Surely Wizards shoud be able to hit a middleground between "There's no threat to the Gatewatch" and "Everyone in the Gatewatch will die painful and meaningless Deaths that make GRRM tell us to cut it out"? I've said it Before, but I'd have preferred if the Gatewatch had to truly unseal the Eldrazi from Zendikar entire, like what was implied when Jace had his little chat with Ugin.

    "The Eldrazi titans do not dwell in physical space," said Ugin. "They are creatures of the Blind Eternities, and it is in the Eternities that they remain."

    "Until they manifest physically, you mean?"

    "No," said Ugin. "I meant what I said. Ulamog remains in the Eternities."

    "Then what did I see heading toward Sea Gate?"

    "You saw a portion of him," said Ugin. "A projection. Imagine that you reach your hand into a pond. The fish below the surface sees a five-headed monster, and cannot perceive the man attached to it. It mistakes a hangnail for an eye because the truth is beyond its imagining. You see?"

    "And when you trapped them . . ."

    "Like driving a spike through the hand," said Ugin. "The man will not die, but neither will he trouble other ponds. 'Killing' Ulamog's physical form would be like cutting off the hand. The man might be diminished, but he would survive—and he would be freed.
    "


    They fight the Eldrazi, destroying thousands of Spawn, lesser- and greater Eldrazi at Seagate, alongside the mortal defenders, but when Ulamog shows up... their attempt to seal it fails, and their most powerful spells barely seem to affect the thing, until ultimately, in order to save what little's left of Zendikar, they "pull the spike from Ulamog's hand".

    Zendikar is saved, but the Eldrazi are now free to roam the Multiverse - and the planeswalkers swear an Oath that they will find a way to stop the Eldrazi once again, and to deal with Bolas, along with nayone else who would threaten the Multiverse in such a fashion.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Magic Story: Kaladesh & Aether Revolt (No Spoiler Discussion)
    I totally agree with everyone complaining about a 15 year old being not just a pirate, not just a pirate captain, but the commander of an entire pirate fleet. A 15 year old being employed in a dangerous, skill-intensive, illegal occupation is ridiculous enough, but having a high-ranking position of leadership? No, just no. Then there's the fact that grown adults would have to willingly be subservient to a teenager, which would not happen in real life. Imagine being a reasonable, working adult and getting a new job, then finding out that your manager (actually, more like your manager's manager) is 15 years old.

    It would make sense if she inherited the fleet from her parents but apparently her parents are Consulate officials so that's pretty much ruled out. I guess that aging could be different for humans on Kaladesh (it certainly is on Ravnica), but at age 12 Chandra was still going to school and being a normal 12 year old, so how a 15 year old would have a very powerful position as a pirate is beyond me.

    It just feels like shameless pandering to me. The whole thing feels like the fantasy of a horny but imaginative teenagers. We get it, 15 year olds play this game. If you want to put 15 year olds in the story, go ahead, but make it actually make sense instead of being completely ridiculous. Did anyone actually stop to think this through? Jesus, she doesn't even look 15. Look at the thread that spoiled her. Multiple people said she was hot (they assumed that she was in her 20s, because that's how she looks), but then retracted their statements when they learned her age. Why not just make her a few years older so that it's actually slightly believable? Or just make her a 15 year old badass pirate, but not a 15 year old badass pirate fleet commander.

    As for the rest of the story, it could have been better. It was somewhat hard to follow, especially with the POV switching between Kari and Jace, without any spacing or notification for the change. Why not just choose one? Their minds are linked anyway, so either one can get plot-relevant information from the other. Why even switch POV at all? It felt like the story kept repeating "Kari is a pirate" and "Kari has a pet monkey" over and over again, which was annoying. The monkey felt cartoonish, Disney-like, and just generally horrible as an element of the story. Yes, people like monkeys but don't make it feel like a Disney princess's pet for the love of God!

    This isn't the fault of the writer, but I feel like the whole pirate thing came out of the blue. There was nothing in Kaladesh indicating piracy of any kind on the plane. If you had asked anyone if Kaladesh had pirates before Aether Revolt, they would have said no. There should have been at least one pirate or pirate-related card in Kaladesh. It didn't have to be a top-down pirate; they could have flavored just about any preexisting U, B, or R creature that's either energy-related or evasive as an Aether pirate. In Aether Revolt we only got two pirates, and no pirate ships (despite other flying vehicle existing). I like the idea of Kaladesh's pirates in general (just not the execution in this story) and I want to see a lot more when we return.


    Yeah, at least Domri Rade is believable, in that he's not an authority figure; he's just someone whose Spark ignited WAY earlier than most. But a Pirate Captain/Admiral at age 15? That's going a bit beyond suspension of disbelief.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 1

    posted a message on Magic Story: Kaladesh & Aether Revolt (No Spoiler Discussion)
    Quote from Pollaski »
    Quote from SteamMage »
    I wonder if Baan is going to be a recurring character, if not full on antagonist. If so I have to think he may taverse the Multiverse warning other walkers of the Gatewatch's marvelous ability to destablize things.


    Perhaps- but Baan strikes me along the lines of Nahiri- outside of the context they were presented in, they probably wouldn't be villians at all.

    Like, now that Nahiri's done on Innistrad, she probably has zero motivation to completely screw up another world. Hell, I'm betting there's a good part of her that's wracked with guilt for what she did on Innistrad.


    Does Nahiri know that Ugin was dead/in a coma while the Eldrazi were breaking free? If not, she'll probably target Tarkir next. She's already tried to murder an entire Plane to get revenge on one guy; I doubt someone like that can even recognize guilt...

    Agree on Dovin, though. He does feel Azorius-y: it's about maintaining order. Lawful neutral, to use a D&D term.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 1

    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from user_938036 »
    Quote from Mangod »
    Quote from JZL_Reloaded »
    Quote from Pollaski »
    Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.


    Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.

    Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.


    Yeah, while I don't dislike the Gatewatch as a concept, I agree with the people claiming that they were poorly introduced; giving them a clean win over the Eldrazi, when they had been built up as a threat that three Oldwalkers couldn't kill? It de-fanged both the Oldwalkers and the Eldrazi as a threat.

    I'd have much preferred if they had been forced to release the Eldrazi from Zendikar completely, once their attempt to re-seal the Eldrazi were screwed over irrevocably by Ob Nixilis; pull out the nail keeping them on the Plane, to use Ugin's "Titan's are the TRUE Eldrazi's hands"-metaphor.

    Speaking of saturday morning cartoons, I think Wizard's should at least take a note from the DCAU Justice League series - don't have the entire Gatewatch present for every story. Split them up, have them work separate cases, and bring them all together for the big season finale (Bolas, Eldrazi, InJacetus League, etc). Give the characters breathing room.
    You're over looking a rather important difference that might be gone soon but is currently an important distinction. Each of those groups is/was significantly larger than the gatewatch currently. As the gatewatch grows expect to see less than the full team on each mission(we already know Ajani isn't going to be on Amonkhet because he thinks its dumb to rush head first into such a threat), though I doubt any block will feature a member going solo.


    Fair point, though I still think that Liliana, Chandra and Nissa would be enough of a Gatewatch presence in this story, especially with Ajani and Saheeli joining forces with them against Tezzeret and Dovin (and Ajani formally joining the Gatewatch afterwards) - pulling Jace and Gideon into the current story as well makes it feel... crowded.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on What's your opinion on 'The Gatewatch'?
    Quote from JZL_Reloaded »
    Quote from Pollaski »
    Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.


    Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.

    Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.


    Yeah, while I don't dislike the Gatewatch as a concept, I agree with the people claiming that they were poorly introduced; giving them a clean win over the Eldrazi, when they had been built up as a threat that three Oldwalkers couldn't kill? It de-fanged both the Oldwalkers and the Eldrazi as a threat.

    I'd have much preferred if they had been forced to release the Eldrazi from Zendikar completely, once their attempt to re-seal the Eldrazi were screwed over irrevocably by Ob Nixilis; pull out the nail keeping them on the Plane, to use Ugin's "Titan's are the TRUE Eldrazi's hands"-metaphor.

    Speaking of saturday morning cartoons, I think Wizard's should at least take a note from the DCAU Justice League series - don't have the entire Gatewatch present for every story. Split them up, have them work separate cases, and bring them all together for the big season finale (Bolas, Eldrazi, InJacetus League, etc). Give the characters breathing room.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Subterranean Tremors
    I just wish it'd created a Wurm token instead... still a nice card, though.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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    posted a message on Eldritch Moon General Discussion Thread
    Quote from OathboundOne »
    Quote from Lord_Drachus »
    And I'm kinda just resigned to Arlinn and Tamiyo not getting any more meaningful screen time for a while...


    This implies that Arlinn ever got meaningful screentime to begin with.

    Kidding (not kidding)


    Hey, she can team up with Domri and Tibalt on team "Not-Chandra Red Planeswalkers".
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Vorthos Cartography: A Planeswalker's Maps of the Multiverse
    Quote from Glamdring804 »
    Quote from Jenrik »
    Gahh I left off so many locations on my makeshift map. Including Mt. Velus which would be on the Theros "Italy"

    Don't sweat it. I will compile a complete list of locations before I start working on the map. Wink

    @ everyone else: Yes, I am still here, and yes, I am still working on maps. I've just been taking a break from posting because of ENM story burnout. Wink


    No need to apologize, I think we all needed a bit of a break after that ending.

    Still a better ending than Bleach.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Agrus Kos and the compelling case of the criminal organization known as the Gatewatch
    Quote from Subject16 »

    This citizen also wished to file a complaint against a certain Nahiri for crimes against other Planeswalkers, namely embedding them into local architecture or stripping them of their powers via Hedron placement.


    You know, "unlawful embedding into local architecture" is exactly the kind of thing the Azorius would have at least eight pages of the lawbook cover, in the abridged version.

    Sorin Markov: Unlawful imprisonment (3 counts), vampiric feeding without a license, cretion of celestial entity without a permit (1 count), destruction of celestial entity without a permit (1 count). Wanted for questioning concerning his Grandfather's association with demonic entities. Approach with caution.
    Posted in: Storyline Speculation
  • 0

    posted a message on Magic Story Articles Discussion: SOI & EMN [No Spoilers]
    I just read MaRo's "Odds & Ends" article, and I stumbled across this:

    with greater focus on story and Planeswalkers, how difficult is it to decide which (of the MANY) 'walkers make it to print?

    My stories about making Tamiyo demonstrate the tension. We're trying to make our stories more Planeswalker-centric, which means we have more Planeswalkers in our stories than we have planeswalker card slots. This means that being in the story is not a guarantee that you'll get a card. So yes, it is causing a lot of hard decisions to be made. Also, the need to color balance means our first choice of lineup often doesn't work out and we have to go back to the drawing board.


    So... does anyone else think this might be a problem going forward? I've seen a lot of complaints about the story during BFZ and SoI (the latter especially) focusing too much on the Planeswalkers already, to the detriment of the rest of the story and setting, and now they want to focus even more on them?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Magic Story Articles Discussion: SOI & EMN [No Spoilers]
    Just a curious thought; what happened to the creatures that were corrupted by Emrakul? Did they disappear when Emrakul was sealed?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Sorin - Nahiri Timeline?
    Quote from Victor Sant »
    Quote from Mangod »
    Which is just weird, since The Lithomancer implies that Sorin and Nahiri have tried to kill the Eldrazi before Ugin came up with the sealing plan, and failed. I'm starting to suspect that Creatives plans for the Eldrazi changed sometime during the making of BfZ or OGW, without considering how it'd affect the greater narrative.
    They had the power, they didn't had the methods.

    People focus to much on Chandra burning them, but forgot how made that possible in the first place: Nissa.
    Nissa control of the leylines (along with the knowledge given by Jace, that he got from Ugin) was what made possible to draw the REAL titan's body into Zendikar for them to be burned out.

    The point is that neither Sorin or Nahiri could bring the titan's real bodies into physical form, so they could kill. It's not a matter of 'how much power', but a matter of 'knowing the right method'.



    Now the point that makes sense on the reason that Bolas released the titan's was for them to be killed. Ugin already stated that the titan's death will have consequences. Maybe those consequences is what bolas is looking for (and Bolas himself couldn't kill them, because again, it's not a matter of 'how much power' but about methods)


    That makes some more sense; thanks!

    Now I just want to see what Bolas plot was (or some more Narset/Sarkhan; Tarkir = best Plane).
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 2

    posted a message on Magic Story Articles Discussion: SOI & EMN [No Spoilers]
    Am I the only one who found Liliana's "do-goody, do-gooder" comments too Joss Whedon-y for a Cosmic Horror Story?

    I'll agree that it's cool that Emrakul is implied to be some kind of MtG answer to Galactus, but this ending didn't really feel satisfying for me; maybe it's because the build to it wasn't up to the task? Still, probably the best story about the Eldrazi thus far.

    Can we please read about some local characters instead of the Neowalkers now? They seem a lot more interesting than the Plane-hopping wizards.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Official New Phyrexia fluff
    Not very much, but you could always start with the Planeswalker's Guide, and go from there.

    Cliff Notes of New Phyrexia at the moment seems to be: Venser's dead, Karn's legged it, Koth is in hiding, Elspeth returned to Theros after Koth (seemingly) sacrificed his life, Tezzeret's legged it, and Elesh Norn is the dominant Phyrexian, with Jin-Gitaxias and Vorinclex as her subordinates, and Urabrask and Sheoldred... not a clue.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Sorin - Nahiri Timeline?
    Quote from Ajduk »
    Quote from Flisch »
    Quote from Mangod »
    Quote from Flisch »
    While I agree with you that Bolas is a terrible character and villain, he is canonically supposed to be this powerful scheming mastermind with plans within plans within plans within plans. They haven't done a very good job at showing us this. (Infact, they did a terrible job for reasons you already partly outlined.) In the end, we can't really dismiss him as not being powerful, because inlore he is acknowledged as such by other very powerful beings.

    As for the Eldrazi being a threat to him: I never bought the explanation that the Eldrazi are a threat to the multiverse as a whole. Even if they would consume an entire plane each day, or three (considering there were three.) they'd still probably never be finished. The Eldrazi are a threat to individual planes, but not to all of them. As for Bolas' pet worlds falling prey to the Eldrazi: I don't think he'd care that much. And if matters come to worse, he surely would find a way to drive them off a world. We have already been shown, that it is possible to at least delay an Eldrazi titan entering a world (Avacyn) and to lure them elsewhere (Nahiri).


    I think a large part of the problem where the Eldrazi are concerned is that they got stomped by the Gatewatch, when Ugin, Sorin and Nahiri could only seal them away. When they released Revelation at the Eye, I expected the story to end with the Gatewatch just barely driving off Ulamog, and then having to try and device some means of resealing it on another plane. But nope, Chandra kills Ulamog AND Kozilek, reducing the Cosmic Horror Eldritch Abominations to jobber status.

    It's kind of hard to buy that Bolas would even need these things as a distraction for... whatever he's up to, when the greenhorn neowalkers manage to kill the Eldrazi where three extradimensional wizard-gods couldn't do it - or maybe Ugin, Sorin and Nahiri never even tried?

    Exactly. They never tried. When Nahir (or Sorin?) asked if the titans couldn't be killed, Ugin says that it may not be possible* and at any rate would be unwise. Ugin wanted to seal the titans away, because he didn't know what kind of purpose they were serving for the multiverse. In this way, if they indeed proved to be irreplaceable, they could just re-release the Eldrazi, whereas the multiverse would be doomed, had they killed them.

    Long story short, people really need to stop saying that the Zendikar Trio could not kill the titans. They simply never tried. (Of course, this doesn't mean the gatewatch should have been able to kill the Eldrazi as quickly and unceremeniously as they did, for narrative reasons, but at least it doesn't directly contradict established lore.)

    *Since he used a "may", he never outright stated it was impossible.


    This.
    The way the titans were portrayed there should be no doubt that two oldwalkers would slaughter them. They just didn't try.


    Which is just weird, since The Lithomancer implies that Sorin and Nahiri have tried to kill the Eldrazi before Ugin came up with the sealing plan, and failed. I'm starting to suspect that Creatives plans for the Eldrazi changed sometime during the making of BfZ or OGW, without considering how it'd affect the greater narrative.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 1

    posted a message on Sorin - Nahiri Timeline?
    Quote from Ajduk »

    Bolas was almost defeated by Leshrac.


    Been a while since I read the book, but wasn't Bolas toying with Leshrac during that fight? To quote the wiki:

    "Leshrac revealed his final card when he ambushed the party by the Madaran rift. Using the mask of Night's Reach, he stripped Jeska of Phage's dark consumption powers and used them to attack Nicol Bolas, who he hoped to defeat and steal his power to become the most powerful being in the Multiverse. After the elder dragon planeswalker returned, he planned to use Jeska to battle the dragon, but the Pardic planeswalker refused, apparently not under control as much as Leshrac thought. Leshrac and Bolas battled both by spells and claw, with Leshrac seemingly gaining the upper hand by paralyzing Bolas between the Talon Gates and temporarily negating his planeswalking powers at first and then began rotting his body off with Phage's powers.

    Walking from world to world, Leshrac and Bolas fought and pieces of dragon body fell to each of them (Ravnica, Kamigawa, Mercadia, and Ulgrotha). When they reappeared on Dominaria, Leshrac prepared his final, killing spell.

    However, nothing was as it seemed. Seconds before his coming demise, Bolas impaled Leshrac with the skeletal remains of his tail and revealed that he had defeated Night's Reach already and held her original, true mask, far superior to the one that Leshrac had. The dragon instantly regenerated himself and used the original Mask to capture Leshrac within it. Minutes after, Nicol Bolas used the mask imbued with Leshrac's power to close the Madaran rift, effectively ending the Walker of the Night's existence."

    I do wonder why Bolas had the Eldrazi released, though. Other than to act as a distraction for Sorin and/or Nahiri, I can't see any reason to release them at all...
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Sorin - Nahiri Timeline?
    Quote from Flisch »
    While I agree with you that Bolas is a terrible character and villain, he is canonically supposed to be this powerful scheming mastermind with plans within plans within plans within plans. They haven't done a very good job at showing us this. (Infact, they did a terrible job for reasons you already partly outlined.) In the end, we can't really dismiss him as not being powerful, because inlore he is acknowledged as such by other very powerful beings.

    As for the Eldrazi being a threat to him: I never bought the explanation that the Eldrazi are a threat to the multiverse as a whole. Even if they would consume an entire plane each day, or three (considering there were three.) they'd still probably never be finished. The Eldrazi are a threat to individual planes, but not to all of them. As for Bolas' pet worlds falling prey to the Eldrazi: I don't think he'd care that much. And if matters come to worse, he surely would find a way to drive them off a world. We have already been shown, that it is possible to at least delay an Eldrazi titan entering a world (Avacyn) and to lure them elsewhere (Nahiri).


    I think a large part of the problem where the Eldrazi are concerned is that they got stomped by the Gatewatch, when Ugin, Sorin and Nahiri could only seal them away. When they released Revelation at the Eye, I expected the story to end with the Gatewatch just barely driving off Ulamog, and then having to try and device some means of resealing it on another plane. But nope, Chandra kills Ulamog AND Kozilek, reducing the Cosmic Horror Eldritch Abominations to jobber status.

    It's kind of hard to buy that Bolas would even need these things as a distraction for... whatever he's up to, when the greenhorn neowalkers manage to kill the Eldrazi where three extradimensional wizard-gods couldn't do it - or maybe Ugin, Sorin and Nahiri never even tried?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Magic Story Articles Discussion: SOI & EMN [No Spoilers]
    Quote from Tanukimo »
    I don't see the difference between fighting with zombies and fighting with weird elementals. And why did the leylines try to kill Nissa?


    The leylines tried to kill Nissa because of Emrakul: the Eldrazi's corruption has seeped into the very land itself. Same reason why Nissa didn't want to call up any Elementals; an Eldrazified Elemental would most likely not be of any help here.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Vorthos Cartography: A Planeswalker's Maps of the Multiverse
    Quote from Glamdring804 »

    Lorwyn/Shadowmoor is going to be difficult. There are no PW guides for the plane, and a return is quite unlikely, meaning no Art Book. Is there a guide or geographical reference somewhere that I can use as reference? I found a survival guide, but what else is there? If I can get a good enough idea of what it looks like, I'll ad it to the list. Note that I'm probably going to do Tarkir next.


    I don't think there's really any kind of guide to what Lorwyn/Shadowmoor looks like, outside of what can be inferred from the cards and books. Although, I'm pretty sure a map of Lorwyn would look something like this:

    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 1

    posted a message on Vorthos Cartography: A Planeswalker's Maps of the Multiverse
    Quote from Glamdring804 »
    Quote from Glamdring804 »
    Quote from kenroos »
    I love the maps Glamdring, pretty sweet.

    Keep up the good work on the Innistrad ones, looking forward to see it finished.

    Thanks! I appreciate the compliments. You won't have to wait much longer. Smile

    And it's done!!! Sorta.

    I've uploaded version 5 of the map, which includes all the labels, added in with text. If you've been paying attention, you may have noticed I skipped right over version 4. Version 4 is the version with labels written in my crappy handwriting. I actually haven't added the labels to the physical map, because I wanted to scan it in first, so I didn't have to erase my handwriting off of it before I added text. Much less time consuming. I'll still upload version 4 soon, but since I'm now traveling, it won't be for a week or two.

    Anyway, enough blather. Stop reading my rambling, and go check out the map in the OP! Please let me know if you find any errors or mistakes. Thanks. Smile


    Really nice work, too. Only thing I wish you'd do, is add the Coat of Arms of the various provinces next to their names, but that's just me. Still, beautiful work!

    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 1

    posted a message on Sorin - Nahiri Timeline?
    Quote from Ajduk »
    Quote from Vorthospike »
    Quote from Ajduk »
    This was said a hundred times and it will be said a hundred times more if necessary: Sorin is not the reason that titans are freed! Nicol Bolas is! Even if he didn't seal her the outcome would still be the same!


    Er, we have no evidence that Nahiri wouldn't have been able to do anything.

    If you prevent firefighters from trying to put out a burning building you can't claim that only the arsonist is at fault by arguing "they might have failed anyway". Zendikar was left without a protector which definitely made it more vulnerable to Bolas' schemes.


    Are you making a claim that Nahiri could do something to prevent Nicol Bolas, the most ancient and most powerful planeswalker (if not entity) of all time, from freeing the eldrazi titans?


    She would have interferred with Sarkhan, Chandra and Jace when they were messing around in the Eye of Ugin. But could she have stopped Bolas if he showed up personally? We'll never know.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Magic Story Articles Discussion: SOI & EMN [No Spoilers]
    Quote from Flisch »
    Quote from Tanukimo »
    This story was too short and nothing really happened. The most interesting part for me was Nissa's comment about not liking the elemental she could summon. I would have liked to see that done just to see what would have appeared.

    A Bloodbriar probably.


    Or an Essence of the Wild, if you want to go back to Innistrad before Emrakul brought down the property values for everyone.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Fixing Tarkir - Why War?
    Quote from Flisch »
    Quote from cyberium_neo »
    Sarkhan saving Ugin was necessary for fighting the Eldrazi... so we were led to believe, until Gatewatch took over.

    In all fairness, without Ugin, Jace wouldn't have known the shape of the glyph required to pull the Eldrazi into physical space. So even if Ugin wasn't directly involved in killing the titans, he still needed to be revived, if Zendikar was to be saved.

    Quote from cyberium_neo »
    If there is an expansion for Tarkir, I hope the humans rise up and butcher the dragons.

    Looking forward to the set "Dragonfall" myself.


    Sarkhan, Narset and the Khans VS Bolas and the (enslaved) Dragonlords? Yes please.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Magic Story Articles Discussion: SOI & EMN [No Spoilers]
    Well... if nothing else, this chapter has convinced me that the "Jacetus League" monicker is more than appropriate, since it reads like one of the worse parts of a DC/Marvel Crisis Crossover.

    Quote from 5colors »
    What I'm really salty about is the fact that the art book summary had better pacing and a side story them seem to have cut out. I'm putting it in spoiler tags since it is from another source then the online fiction but it dose seem like they cut this out;

    So the Gatewatch start at the Drownyard Temple and make their way to the city. Along the way they find a small town that has been mostly abounded as the eldrazi horror mutants followed Emrakul to Thraben, except for a few heavily mutated humans and animals left. As they leave Chandra ends up completely burning the town down because of how much of Emrakul has tainted it.


    If they really cut that part out, it feels like a missed opportunity. But on the other flip of the dick, if it had been written with the same quality as this chapter, leaving it out might have been for the better.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Fixing Tarkir - Why War?
    Quote from Xeruh »
    Quote from Mangod »
    Quote from Flisch »
    Re: Lands having degraded under the Khans rule:
    Have you taken a look at the basic land art for DTK? The Sultai palaces are in ruins. Not just overgrown, in literal ruins. The Mardu plains are plagued by rolling thunder clouds, the abzan deserts choked by sandstorms. The Jeskai mountain peaks are frozen over, the waterfalls lost. And the Temur tundra is charred by dragon fire and active volcanoes.

    If you really want to use symbolism to explain how one timeline is better than the other, don't just focus on one timeline. Even if the basic land art is legitimately telling us that the plane suffered under the rule of the khans, it similarly shows us that the plane suffered under the rule of the dragons at least as much, if not even more.

    Quote from Onering »
    The Ojutai aren't bad off, and life in that brood is better than life in most places in the multiverse

    Except that non-dragons in Ojutai society have literally no rights? Off the top of my head I can think of a bunch of places in the multiverse where life is better than this.


    Oh, I'm not arguing that KTK or DTK was better, I'm saying that the lands were the only evidence I saw that KTK was worse off than FRF.

    But you're absolutely right, DTK hasn't been an improvement, and actually looks to be even worse, which, as was stated in the State of Design last year, left people feeling disappointed with how things were left.







    So yeah, DTK seems to have screwed over the Clans, and Tarkir itself, completely. Although, I'd kind of like to see Narset convince Sarkhan that Tarkir is still broken, and they need to fix it by bringing the Dragons to heel, like they were under Ugin.


    You missed the part where Phyrexians have invaded Tarkir though. *kidding*

    But the artwork does paint a pretty bad picture. Only the Forest looks arguably fine in the Dragons world, the rest look really bad. Are there before and after pictures for the other lands or was this the only cycle? Kind of curious, I didn't pay attention to the basic lands as much. But it definitely looks like Tarkir has a lot to get fixed, kind of curious how they'll manage that.


    This was the only cycle that spanned all three sets in the Tarkir block. There was also one cycle showing the Clan wedge color Lands during KTK and FRF:






    And two comparing the KTK and DTK Clan color lands:






    And that took way more time than I had expected.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Fixing Tarkir - Why War?
    Quote from Mullerornis »
    Quote from Onering »
    Arguably every clan is worse off save for the Abzan (As they are now less prone to internecine warfare and plots, no longer practice slavery, and are no longer bound to serve for all eternity as spirits, and serve a legitimately benevolent dragon lord). The Ojutai aren't bad off, and life in that brood is better than life in most places in the multiverse, but the Jeskai were still better off. The Temur are far worse off under Atarka. the Mardu were always a rampaging horde, but and least they had some room to grow and thrive, while under K they have no hope for any sort of stability, its all kill all the time. They are the Rakdos without the fun. Sultai to Silumger is actually a lateral move as I think about it. Its as terrible as it was under khans, except now instead of it being the Naga and Demons, its Dragons running the show. If anything, its a bit less cut throat as nobody wants to rise too high for fear of earning the wrong sort of attention from the dragons.


    The other way around, actually:

    - The Ojutai are fanatical, highly dogmatic cultists which are explicitly stated to be a lesser caste to the dragons, to the point that in whatever instance a dragon decides to murder a mortal they get away with it.

    - The SIlumgar are fred from the racism of the Sultai (though in practise the dragons are obviously usually above the mortals, if for no other reason than inherent power)


    Weren't the Silumgar stated to be the only Dragon Brood were a mortal could rise to hold a rank above a Dragon? I can't remember where I read it, but I'm faily sure that it's Canon.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Fixing Tarkir - Why War?
    Quote from Flisch »
    Re: Lands having degraded under the Khans rule:
    Have you taken a look at the basic land art for DTK? The Sultai palaces are in ruins. Not just overgrown, in literal ruins. The Mardu plains are plagued by rolling thunder clouds, the abzan deserts choked by sandstorms. The Jeskai mountain peaks are frozen over, the waterfalls lost. And the Temur tundra is charred by dragon fire and active volcanoes.

    If you really want to use symbolism to explain how one timeline is better than the other, don't just focus on one timeline. Even if the basic land art is legitimately telling us that the plane suffered under the rule of the khans, it similarly shows us that the plane suffered under the rule of the dragons at least as much, if not even more.

    Quote from Onering »
    The Ojutai aren't bad off, and life in that brood is better than life in most places in the multiverse

    Except that non-dragons in Ojutai society have literally no rights? Off the top of my head I can think of a bunch of places in the multiverse where life is better than this.


    Oh, I'm not arguing that KTK or DTK was better, I'm saying that the lands were the only evidence I saw that KTK was worse off than FRF.

    But you're absolutely right, DTK hasn't been an improvement, and actually looks to be even worse, which, as was stated in the State of Design last year, left people feeling disappointed with how things were left.







    So yeah, DTK seems to have screwed over the Clans, and Tarkir itself, completely. Although, I'd kind of like to see Narset convince Sarkhan that Tarkir is still broken, and they need to fix it by bringing the Dragons to heel, like they were under Ugin.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Fixing Tarkir - Why War?
    Quote from Jay13x »
    Quote from Mullerornis »
    The thing about Tarkir is that it suffers severely from moral myopia. KTO is supposed to be awful and rectified in DOT. Instead, we get a world where clans and their identities have been subdued by five different flavours of draconic trants whose sole claim to legitimacy is some vague background vital effect in the land arts (and even then, Atarka is stated to be a threat to all wildlife...), yet Creative seems obsessed with parading about how much better it is.
    Sarkhan likes it better, but that's really it. I've only seen comments that it's different and a reborn world, not that it's better.


    True, but the issue stems from the fact that the playerbase percieves DTK as being worse than KTK, Wizards intentions be damned. Heck, look at StubbornOne's post further up the page; it defines the new Dragonbroods by what the Clans have lost, not what they have gained. The Clans are diminished by the Dragons, and that makes the story somewhat unsatisfying.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 2

    posted a message on Fixing Tarkir - Why War?
    Really, the only evidence I've seen that things were worse under the Khans than they were during Fate Reforged is the change in how the Land-cards looked.

    Compare KTK Scoured Barrens to Fate Reforged, for instance.



    One is a barren desert, the other is inhabited.

    Or the Jeskai Mountain or Sultai Forest.




    Again, both have been reclaimed by nature, suggesting that the Clans are all in decline. But quite frankly, that's not a lot of support for life under the Dragonlords being better.

    I think things would have worked better if during FRF, the Clans had been dual-colored, and the dragons had shared the primary color, but had the opposing color as well. So the Mardu are Red-Black, Kolaghan is Red-White, and then in DTK the Clans have all seen a shift in the prominence of which supporting color is more prominent. So the Mardu were RBw in Khans, then in DTK, the Kolaghan are RbW instead.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 1

    posted a message on Eldritch Moon General Discussion Thread
    Quote from Mangod »
    I'm just sad that the Eldrazi couldn't go to New Phyrexia and fight against the Phyrexians. I would gladly have the Pure Steel Mirrodins accept Emrakrul as their savior and go on crazy power trips to become Puresteel Eldrazi to fight against the Phyrexians.


    I don't think that'd be a good idea, for one simple reason: who am I supposed to be rooting for?

    Wrestling has the same problem when pitching Heel VS Heel matches; the audience has no one to cheer for, nobody to support, because at the end of the day, no matter who wins, we lose. Eldrazi VS Phyrexia would just be a question of whether we become food for extraterrestrial gods, or gets butchered and stitched together into a mockery of life. Lose/lose scenario.

    If the Puresteel Mirrans were a third party using the conflict to try and reclaim their world, that'd be a different thing entirely.


    I see your point, but not everything needs to be black or white. I enjoy these gray morality stories, and I'm sure many others do as well. Remember Stone Cold Steve Austin was one of the most popular face because he did heel things. Having gray morality and "doing what may be necessary" is always a fun little concept in stories. In this case, do the Mirrodin's accept Emrakrul and warp into Eldrazi and live to fight Phyrexia or do they refuse and get grafted into some machine?


    Oh, I understand what you're going for, it's just that, well...

    Eldrazi: devour entire Planes and their populations, stripping the Plane bare before moving on, like a swarm of extraterrestrial locusts.

    Phyrexia: enslave, butcher, distort, torture and corrupt entire Planes and their populations before spreading to the next Plane to infect, like an intelligent virus.

    This isn't gray morality: this is Black VS Black morality. If the Mirrans were allying with Bolas, or some other force that's not entirely inimical to their way of life, that'd be more akin to what you're looking for I think.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 1

    posted a message on Eldritch Moon General Discussion Thread
    I'm just sad that the Eldrazi couldn't go to New Phyrexia and fight against the Phyrexians. I would gladly have the Pure Steel Mirrodins accept Emrakrul as their savior and go on crazy power trips to become Puresteel Eldrazi to fight against the Phyrexians.


    I don't think that'd be a good idea, for one simple reason: who am I supposed to be rooting for?

    Wrestling has the same problem when pitching Heel VS Heel matches; the audience has no one to cheer for, nobody to support, because at the end of the day, no matter who wins, we lose. Eldrazi VS Phyrexia would just be a question of whether we become food for extraterrestrial gods, or gets butchered and stitched together into a mockery of life. Lose/lose scenario.

    If the Puresteel Mirrans were a third party using the conflict to try and reclaim their world, that'd be a different thing entirely.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Magic Story Articles Discussion: SOI & EMN [No Spoilers]
    Quote from Xeruh »
    Azor was also a Planeswalker if I recall right. So I could see him managing it. Not sure what it would mean though.


    He was? All I remember is that he was one of the Paruns, the founders of the Guilds, but if he was an oldwalker, how could he not defeat the other Paruns? I mean, the entire argument for Sorin overreacting to Nahiri attacking him was that oldwalkers are essentially gods, so if Azor could bend the entire Multiverse that way, he should have been able to defeat the other Guilds with ease.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Magic Story Articles Discussion: SOI & EMN [No Spoilers]
    Quote from RedGauntlet »
    Quote from Gutterstorm »
    Quote from Xeruh »


    What was that about the Implicit Maze? That sounds kind of interesting.


    Apparently, the original story for RTR was that solving the Implicit Maze would realign the multiverse with Ravnica at its center. They decided to go with the other plan. Likely for the best as I can only imagine the outrage here and elsewhere had that been the case.


    Ravnica is the Jace of the planes XD so yeah makes sense to change the storyline because that sounds really stupid


    Realigning the Multiverse sounds like something that'd require an oldwalker, probably several, and frankly, if Azor I was that powerful, there shouldn't be any reason the Azorius didn't conquer all of Ravnica; who's gonna stop them? The other Guilds should have been ground to dust under the magic that a hypothetical UW oldwalker could unleash against them.

    Although... what's been happening on Dominaria since Time Spiral? It feels a bit like Ravnica's supplanted it already in the story, so maybe making it official would have worked, but like I said, it'd probably break the story if they tried it...
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 1

    posted a message on Nahiri: Threat or Menace?
    Quote from Singe »
    Nahiri will need to do something else to gauge if she's a threat or menace, independently on her own powers. Most of this damage and chaos done to Innistrad is just the handy work of others like crazy Avacyn, Emrakul, and Sorin deciding to kill Avacyn which allowed the full power of Emrakul to be unleashed on Innistrad.


    Uhm... Emrakul showing up on Innistrad was engineered by Nahiri. And Avacyn was driven insane as an un/intended side-effect of that. I'd say she's a menace, much in the same way Lex Luthor would be for summoning Darkseid to kill Superman.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Eldritch Moon General Discussion Thread
    Quote from Yatsufusa »
    Quote from KarnTerrier »
    In the story where he kills Avacyn, Sorin explicitly states that he can't create another Archangel or another Helvault. He infused them with a part of his own essence, creating them was a once-in-a-lifetime feat that can't be repeated. So no, he definitely couldn't just break open the Helvault and make a new one.


    He had around 900 years of pre-mending oldwalker powers to consider whether breaking the Helvault and having to replace it with another chunk of the Moon was worth releasing his student. Even if he couldn't replace the Helvault for whatsoever reasons (whether he doesn't have enough "essence", or the Moon ran out of rocks to be stable)... it was still a matter of prioritizing the "protection of his plane" over his student... a decision he dragged on for 1000 years before Ugin practically made him consider it. I don't think there's anything that could legitimately justify Sorin's callousness/selfishness in prioritizing the Helvault in its entirely over Nahiri.

    Before people start jumping on me again for "defending Nahiri", because apparently saying Sorin's evil means so, let me clarify that Sorin's evil does not justify Nahiri's evil in any way, Nahiri is still evil (and more evil now by scale of destruction). I just find that any excuses Sorin could possibly muster up for leaving Nahiri in there for so many years cannot justify his callousness - not even the protection of Innistrad, considering Innistrad was surviving prior to the Avacyn/Helvault anyway.


    Like I said earlier, any argument that's based on whether or not Sorin could/should have released Nahiri are pointless, because we don't know, and probably never will know, if he could have released her from the Helvault.

    As for Spirits being immune to Emrakul... dunno. I mean, it's possible that Kamigawa would fare better against Emrakul than Innistrad has, but we'll, again, never know unless the Titan breaks free of the Moon. We can speculate, but that's also all it'd be; speculation.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on Magic Story Articles Discussion: SOI & EMN [No Spoilers]
    Quote from Zazdor »
    My only big thought is: Why hasn't anyone tried to blame demons for this? I would have thought Thalia, Rem, or Traft would have asked, "What are the demons up to?" Sadly, they are completely missing from the equation. I don't need us to see demons (there is not enough space for them), but a reference to them or a character assuming demons are up to something seems like a possible conclusion. Again, not a big deal.


    That's something I'd like to know as well; where the Hell is Ormendahl in all of this?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Eldritch Moon General Discussion Thread
    Quote from Gutterstorm »
    While there is no evidence that he can pull individuals out of the Helvault there's also no indication that he couldn't.


    Which renders the argument kind of pointless, doesn't it? Sorin sealed Nahiri in the Helvault, but whether or not he could have pulled her back out is something we'll probably never know.

    Here's a question; what do you think Nahiri's next step is? Go after Ugin? Return to Zendikar?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 0

    posted a message on what would you do for kamigawa return
    If we return to Kamigawa, I'd like for them to:

    1) get rid of the Samurai subtype (it just doesn't work with any other block, and really, they're just Knights by another name).
    2) do some kind of Sengoku Jidai story, since I'd love to see a MtG take on it (a Goblin warlord trying to become the new emperor would be hilarius).
    3) make the spirit creatures and cards less busy; they were just an assault on the eyes in the original Kamigawa.

    Still, I could definitively see a return to Kamigawa. I liked the plane, it just had some issues that need ironing out.

    Quote from Arminion »
    I would like a return but focusing on the mortal races (foxes, snakes, moonfolk, rats etc), maybe even make it a tribal block.
    I would also like to see story focusing more on the legendary creatures as opposed to Planeswalkers (you know, like in the good old days).


    Also, this.
    Posted in: Storyline Speculation
  • 4

    posted a message on Magic Story Articles Discussion: SOI & EMN [No Spoilers]
    Well...
    The simplest way Nahiri can come to know how the Eldrazi were released is through Ugin, I suppose.
    Ugin knows who was involved in the release of the titans and at the moment he is studying the remains of the titans on Zendikar , oblivious of the events on Innistrad.
    Nahiri might come back to her old plane, see tht has not been completey destroyed and have a talk with Ugin about the Eldrazi and how they were released.
    Obviously after trying to cut down the ancient dragon for not protecting Zendikar.

    I would really like to read a possible dialog between Nahiri and Ugin about her luring Emrakul to Innistrad to make Sorin pay.


    "Ugin, why didn't you show up to help me when the Eldrazi were breaking free 1000 years ago?! I'll destroy Tarkir as revenge for you not upholding your oath!"
    "I've been in a coma for the last 1200 years."
    "... well, now I look a little unhinged, don't I."
    "Positively insane, to be frank."
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on DoT Monocolor Dragons
    Just curious, but judging from what has been previewed so far, are all monocolored dragons in the different broods going to be the same color. For example, are all the Dromoka Brood monocolored dragons going to be white? It just seems to be the case from what has been previewed thus far, which strikes me as weird. Anyone else getting the same vibes?
    Posted in: Speculation
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    posted a message on Planeswalker Companions
    Wasn't Venser working on something for transporting people/stuff between planes before he went and got himself killed?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Sorin Colors
    Quote from Aedai Rivin
    Yet he isn't red. He isn't hasty. His plans take time. He's willing to wait. None of these are red traits.

    And we haven't yet seen a WB walker. WOTC has shown us multiple times that they want to represent each color for each block.

    Lorwyn-Shadowmoor: Ajani White, Jace Blue, Lili Black, Chandra Red, Garruk Green (Admittingly they only showed up in Lorwyn as a test, but the idea still stands)

    Alara: Elspeth White, Tezz Blue, Bolas Black, Ajani Red, Sarkhan Green

    Zendikar: Gideon White, Jace Blue, Sorin Black, Chandra Red, Nissa Green (Sarkhan was extra)

    Scars: Elspeth White, Venser Blue, Tezz Black, Koth Red, Karn Green (Only slot left, and green ramps)

    M10, M11, and M12 had this too.

    That's SEVEN CONSECUTIVE blocks/core sets where each color is represented by a walker. Anyone claiming otherwise is ignorant of WOTC's basic business plan (which we've seen the pattern of) Also notice how any two color pair has never been repeated EVER, and you realize how idiotic a BR Sorin is.

    Then again, Sorin may end up being the "extra" walker like Sarkhan the Mad, and not count for color representation, with a White Planeswalker either returning or a new character. In that case any case for Sorin's colors is pointless.

    Rivin


    1) Just because someone's red doesn't mean they can't plan ahead. Case in point: Izolda, from Dissension, who's plans include mindcontrolling Rakdos and taking over the world. She's red, but that's her motivations, whereas black provides the planning in this case.

    2) Karn is green?! What are you smoking? http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Karn+Liberated does not remind me of any green card I've seen in my life. I might have missed something, but direct removal/taking controll of your opponents assets seems more like blue/black rather than green.
    Posted in: Storyline Speculation
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    posted a message on Sorin Colors
    Quote from regitnui
    I'd love it if all the people who were 'convinced' that Sorin will change colours would a) read this thread and b) realise that no, your 'astounding leap of logic' isn't an original thought, that it has been busted already, and just because you feel oh so special for coming up with the idea that it isn't inherently sacred.

    Sorin will not change colours.

    What's wrong with having two monoblack planeswalkers in the same set anyway? Just beacuse it has never happened before, doesn't mean it won't happen. DFCs, anyone?

    Planeswalkers are not designed in cycles. They aren't designed the same way as regular cards at all.

    Can we please stop beating a(n un)dead horse?


    He "might" branch out into either of blacks allied colours, or he might stay mono, but I'll agree that it seems unlikely he'll hop over into white or green. As for http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=341425, the only thing that picture proves is that Sorin's on Innistrad, and that he's used his sword on someone/something.
    Posted in: Storyline Speculation
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    posted a message on A Planeswalker's Guide To Innistrad
    Well, I think that this: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/stf/157
    Means we can safely conclude that, no, Lilianna did not frag Baron Sengir in that preview picture.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on What does the Multiverse need now?
    Aside from the obvious need for a cohesive vision of what rules the multiverse operate under, I personally think that MtG needs to have the good guys, you know, win once in a while.

    Scars is the third block in a row that has seen the heels walk away with the Tag-team titles.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on New art (lot's of stuff)
    Porcelain Legion paladin? Sweet.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Phyrexian Praetors (Faction Leaders) Discussion
    Quote from Skibo
    So alot of people think that this art is the art for Jin-Gix.


    I always figured that's Karn, having finally given in to Phyrexia and being Compleated himself.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Phyrexian Praetors (Faction Leaders) Discussion
    That will probably be what victory boils down to: not wheter or not the Mirrans are stong enough to take on the Phyrexians mano-y-mano, but rather wheter the Preators can keep themselves from turning on eachother long enough to finish the Great Work.

    Edit: Elesh-Norn is what TV Tropes defines as a Pettanko. Look it up.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Current direction of storyline & scars' potential ending
    Or WotC could extend the planeswalker novels into threepart series, wherein we get to see Jace, Chandra, Sarkhan an the rest of the Bradybunch interact with the world and characters that are introduced with the new expansion.

    Why'd WotC abandon that approach to writing, anyway? It'd be nice to see how, say, Venser gets along with the Neurok and Elspeth tries to adapt to the Auriok/Sylvok's way of life. Koth could give a deeper insight into the Vulshok, and we could finish of the entire block with Mini-Urza evacuating Mirrodin/New Phyrexia as the Planeswalkers watch the plane forlornly as it disappears in the Aether.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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