The distance between Egypt (which Amonkhet is based on) and Kenya (Mirage is based on the Savannah and jungle of Africa, and especially evocative of the Lake Victoria region, of which Kenya is the closet state in the region to Egypt) is greater than the distance between England and Ukraine. It is as relevant to think the best comparison for an Egyptian themed set is an African Great Lakes themed set as it is to think the best comparison for a Slavic themed set would be a British Isles themed set. Its far more relevant to compare Amonkhet to Theros, especially due to the themes the two settings are working with.
So, comparing Innistrad to Lorwyn?
Honestly, having read about the Mirage War (thanks, Quannage!), I find it odd that anyone would compare Mirage and Amonkhet at all; the stories have nothing in common.
I didn't know where to put this thought, and so I'll just put it here. Mirage was just more flavorful and memorable set and storyline in many more ways than Amonkhet and/or Hour Of Devastation is.
And your reasoning for this is...? Scratch that, what has Mirage to do with Amonkhet at all? It's such a random negative thing to say... so I will just argue against it in a similar way: In my opinion Amonkhet is extremely flavorful and it's tragic storyline much more compelling than many parts of the Weatherlight saga. I will certainly remember it better.
And I'll leave it at that.
You really needed me to point out Mirage took it's inspiration from a northeastern African setting like Amonkhet took it's inspiration from Egypt?
The flavor of Mirage is in no way related to ancient egypt. Therefore comparing the two is a pretty useless thing to do. And even if they had something to do with each other, you are not explaining why you feel that way, you just state your opinions as facts. You can't just do that and expect everyone to agree.
I'd like to know, since Mirage predates when I started playing (Odyssey block, FYI); what even was the flavor and/or story of the Mirage-block?
We spent the first 15? years of the setting having it thrown in our face that Planeswalkers get mistaken for Gods all the time. Just because it gets called a God does not mean it is an actual divine deity. The closest thing we have come to actual Divinity in the setting are the High Level Kamigawin spirits.
Those were oldwalkers, though. Y'know, the near-omnipotent beings that made the writing staff create the Time Spiral block so they could get rid off them? I don't Think you can invoke that argument when WotC fundamentally changed the entire setting to prevent it. Neowalkers are supposed to be wizards, very powerful ones at that, but still not "mistaken for Gods" powerful.
(Granted, you could argue that Gideon could be mistaken for a God on some plane, but at that point, the "mistaken for Gods" statement loses any relevancy to the reading audience, because what a tier of power a "God" is supposed to be is so fluid, it might as well be meaningless)
The problem you all seem to be having is "too many assumptions on what being a God actually entails". In Magic a gods appears to be no more than a high level incarnation. Any other traits you are assigning them are assumptions.
As for the claim about assumption about Gods, well... when terms like "Gods" are being thrown around, most of us probably fill in what being a God entails from other settings or mythology, which in most cases carry with it the expectation that they're the be-all, end-all of their setting. Yes, it's assumptive, but what else are we supposed to do? When you say "God", I'm not going to be able to act like it's a word that I've never heard before and has no prior context.
I will admit that I'm much less upset about Nissa overcoming Kefnet now than when I first read it, but I still feel that it was poorly written, because the Gods-are-made-of-leylines thing felt like it was an ass-pull. Had that fact been established earlier, I think it would have been less controversial.
I'm starting to wonder if there was some kind of screw-up with the schedule for Uncharted Realms; some of the later chapters in the Amonkhet block have felt awfully rushed in places. The transition from Samut getting captured, to being freed by the Gatewatch, to the latter all getting captured by the Gods and brought to the Trials felt like it was written by someone who was only given an hour to bridge two separate scenes.
Now we know the true meaning of Trespasser's Curse, it's not about the people who entered the tomb, but Bolas himself.
The end was rushed, perhaps to squeeze as much information in without needing another update, but that's kinda silly. If you need the length, do the length, don't half-arse it.
And again, why would Bolas permit any old glyphs to survive, did he leave in a hurry or something? That's not very Bolas-like
They could have been carved by someone who remembered what the world was like before Bolas, or just before Bolas left. Gotta agree with the ending feeling terribly rushed - was it written just before deadline or something?
Three of the gods on Amonkhet have corresponding races. Kefnet is an ibis, which is part of the aven found on the plane. Rhonas is a cobra- connected to the naga. And Hazoret is a jackal- khenra.
Oketra is a cat- and while we've had cat-humanoids before, most prominently leonin, there are none on Amonkhet, to the point that its probably fortunate that Ajani came along, because there'd be no way to even remotely explain him. Bontu's croc-headedness hasn't been represented ever in Magic, outside of Bontu herself.
There a significance to this? Or just a coincidence?
Sometimes I feel like Creative fears it shot itself in the foot with the mending (it didn't) that it has this agenda of making a mockery out of the entire multiverse and lore for the sake of making Neo-walkers appear as powerful as Oldwalkers without having to retcon the mending.
I think a lot of decisions Creative made have proven to be somewhat incompatible with the current story, like Jace being the Living Guildpact. The guy is essentially to Ravnica what the President is to the USA; someone who can't just up and disappear as he wishes without telling someone where he's going, for how long, how do they get a hold of him in case of emergency, etc, etc.
This doesn't say that she learned of that through dancing though. She was just searching for martial arts and dance techniques of the past and discovered that there is a sudden end to the archives a few decades ago. At least that's how I read it.
No, we have no idea at this point what exactly the horns are, but knowing Bolas they are just a monument of his dominion over Amonkhet (doubling as a sign of the encroachment of the Hours).
I would assume they're like the horns in Pools of Becoming. Dragon sticks his brand on everything.
Honestly, if the gap between the heroes and villains is as vast as people are making it out to be, I don't see any reasonable way that the heroes could win. Nissa can't do anything Bolas did, even if it's on a vastly reduced scale, that's too powerful. How exactly are the Gatewatch supposed to win? People balk at additional people joining the Gatewatch, so it can't be quantity, and if they're too strong then it's complained about too.
I really feel bad for Wizards, no matter what they do people complain. The only answer people seem willing to accept is complete and utter destruction of the Gatewatch. Yes, hyperbole, but that really does seem to be the vibe.
Do you know what separates an Oldwalker from Neowalkers/the Gatewatch? Imagine five ants trying to fight a bull elephant. The Gatewatch are not a bad idea, but the story's been so bungled where they are concerned, that I'd rather they just get broken up at this point. The contrivances that have to be implemented in order for the GW to not get clownstomped by some of the threats they face is killing my interest the setting.
I understand if you like them, they're like a Magic version of the Avengers, but I simply don't care for how they've been handled. They are supposed to be regular mages outside of the planeswalking, yet they keep overcoming threats that by all right shouldn't even register them as a nuisance. It's like Spiderman beating Thanos in a straight fight; no. Just no.
I see that you fully ignored my rebuttal of your statement that the gatewatch did anything on their own that they could have only done if they were oldwalkers. There never was a straight fight (even the admittedly weak but explainable defeat of the titans wasn't). Emrakul had to use them as tools to imprison her and nearly killed all of them, Kaladesh was a pretty down-to-earth conflict and they still did nothing uberpowerful on Amonkhet yet (see my above answer to you). You are projecting your dislike for the idea on the storytelling I believe.
Yes, I dislike the storytelling; why the f*** do you think I'm complaining? The storytelling of MtG as a whole has deteriorated since BfZ, and I blame the s*** writing where the Gatewatch are concerned for that - not because the idea of a group of planeswalkers working together bothers me, but because I consider the writing to be bad. Threats like Tezzeret I can accept them fighting and beating, but the Eldrazi? Gods?
Chandra, per Wizards own established canon, is just a pyromancer who can planeswalk: how do you expect me to take the story seriously when she kills Cthulhu? Or when Nissa mindr**** a God into submission despite never even trying something like that before, while she's under direct mental assault?
I'm not projecting; I just consider the story about the GW to be a poorly thought out, poorly told mess, on par with fanfiction. When you keep pitting them against threats that they should by all rights not even be in danger of inconveniencing, yet keep having them come out on top, it robs the setting of any gravitas it might have had.
Honestly, if the gap between the heroes and villains is as vast as people are making it out to be, I don't see any reasonable way that the heroes could win. Nissa can't do anything Bolas did, even if it's on a vastly reduced scale, that's too powerful. How exactly are the Gatewatch supposed to win? People balk at additional people joining the Gatewatch, so it can't be quantity, and if they're too strong then it's complained about too.
I really feel bad for Wizards, no matter what they do people complain. The only answer people seem willing to accept is complete and utter destruction of the Gatewatch. Yes, hyperbole, but that really does seem to be the vibe.
Do you know what separates an Oldwalker from Neowalkers/the Gatewatch? Imagine five ants trying to fight a bull elephant. The Gatewatch are not a bad idea, but the story's been so bungled where they are concerned, that I'd rather they just get broken up at this point. The contrivances that have to be implemented in order for the GW to not get clownstomped by some of the threats they face is killing my interest the setting.
I understand if you like them, they're like a Magic version of the Avengers, but I simply don't care for how they've been handled. They are supposed to be regular mages outside of the planeswalking, yet they keep overcoming threats that by all right shouldn't even register them as a nuisance. It's like Spiderman beating Thanos in a straight fight; no. Just no.
Why do you assume it took Bolas months or years? Is there anything close to this being indicated anywhere? Or would you be equally unsettled if we learned Bolas conquered all of Amonket in a day(or week), including 'destroying' three gods subjugating the other five and wiping out everyone over the age of 40?
Why are you discrediting Nissa? She's had experience with leylines for at least a few years now. Sure she only learned because Zendikar was her friend, but that doesn't mean the things she learned are useless elsewhere, it was proven not to be the case the very next plane where her connection to leylines was just as strong, the leylines where just more violent there.
Honestly I don't see any difference(problem) between a person with natural talent(Nissa and leylines) accomplishing the same thing as someone else(Bolas) who spent an undetermined amount of time to accomplish. If she actually did something the other couldn't(or maybe even equal) I would have problems, but Bolas practically left her the blueprints so its not strange to see her accomplish this lesser task.
Why do you assume Bolas "practically left her the blueprints"? Hell, how would Nissa even recognize something like that? She's not a trained telepath, and I doubt Bolas would MC the Gods by "altering the leylines", since that's not generally his kind of thing.
But overlooking all of that... why do we even pretend that the Planeswalker Spark was altered after the Time Spiral-block? The Gatewatch are pulling off things that I would have accepted from an Oldwalker, but they are supposed to just be regular mages who happen to be able to walk between the Planes now!
And yet... overcoming Gods, whom they've never encountered before, know nothing about, in a matter of seconds? Killing Cthuloid monstrosities that devour entire worlds? At this point in the narrative, we might as well just restore Planeswalkers to the overgods they used to be, because the Gatewatch keep pulling that kind of power out of their a******s anyway.
I mean, very briefly looking through just a google search, plenty of examples of people talking about "nexuses of leylines". That's what the Gods are. That so many people haven't heard of that concept is weird to me though.
The thing is, leylines (or ley lines) are not nomadic, nor are leyline nexuses (nexi?) ambulatory. Saying that the gods are leyline nexi when they can freely move around... to use Perkunas687's highway analogy, your intersection just got up and walked the f*** away.
Okay? And ordinarily the moon isn't made of silver, look at Innistrad. It's not like every plane features Gods, but that's part of what makes Amonkhet what it is. Nexuses/Gods can move on Amonkhet.
My issue with that is that it's so different from leylines it might as well not be, and the only reason they're called that is because WotC's writers couldn't think of a way for Nissa to overcome Kefnet otherwise.
If we placed Chandra in Nissa's situation, how would she have overcome Kefnet? Well, in this case, it'd be because Kefnet just happens to be made of kindling. What bothers me, and I realise this is subjective, is that the story felt like it was written around Nissa's abilities. Instead of having Nissa Think of a clever way to overcome Kefnet, they instead asked "Ok, what can Nissa do. Answer: leylines. So how does she defeat Kefnet. Answer: he just happens to be made of leylines!"
It's so convenient that it breaks my suspencion of disbelief. How does the character who's magic is based around leylines defeat a God of Knowledge and telepathy? He conveniantly happens to be made of the one thing that the leyline-focused character can affect.
I mean, very briefly looking through just a google search, plenty of examples of people talking about "nexuses of leylines". That's what the Gods are. That so many people haven't heard of that concept is weird to me though.
The thing is, leylines (or ley lines) are not nomadic, nor are leyline nexuses (nexi?) ambulatory. Saying that the gods are leyline nexi when they can freely move around... to use Perkunas687's highway analogy, your intersection just got up and walked the f*** away.
But the leyline thing...it's like they're setting up "leylines" to be the fundamental way in which mana interacts with planes. Which I guess could be okay, but it seems like a pretty major change to the way mana has been presented throughout the history of the setting. I wonder what Nissa would make of how mana works on Dominaria, or on an artificial plane like New Phyrexia? I wish instead of this leyline business they'd get back to talking about the colors of mana a little more.
I agree with this point, and would add that this 'Kefnet is leylines' thing is conceptually frustrating. When I first heard of leylines, they stretched in patterns over our Earth. Massive 'energy' lines. So when they brought up leylines on Zendikar, okay, I dig. I can visualize it. The plane is full of mana and energy. Using it as a net? Okay, I get it. We're still talking lines across a plane connected by important points, whatever those points might be.
Same, more or less, on Innistrad and Kaladesh.
Now...I'm to be made to believe that these plane/planet-wide grids of mana/energy...are now diminutive, such as to be contained within a creature...and thus creating that creature? Conceptually, it doesn't make sense in my brain and doesn't sit well. It seemed like a crewtion of the author/Wizards to allow Nissa to influence a god (on the same, though not as powerful, level as Nicol Bolas).
It just doesn't feel right. I liked other parts of that story, but this leyline stuff is getting to me.
Is it a significant change? From what I understand and can gain from old books magic has always worked this way with the occasional oddity. Power(magic) naturally flows across a plane in rivers(leylines) and where these converge are places of great power. Where normal mages tap into this power and draw it to them; Nissa and Nahiri have been showing the ability to manipulate these natural rivers to divert large quantities of power from the normal course.
So rivers of power that flow through the world are somehow less for being intrinsically linked to a GOD? It would be weirder for such fundamental beings not to be linked to leylines. They are walking convergence points, the embodiment of ideals on this plane, if they were artificial I could understand them not being this way but it makes perfect sense for this kind of entity to being 'made' of leylines.
I can't speak for everyone else, but it bother me because 1) Nissa is starting to become a one-trick-pony in my mind, where Everything she does seemingly must involve leylines, and 2) Nissa overcoming a God, singlehandedly, by manipulating the leylines in his head or something, instinctively... overlooking the issue of leylines now being part of things other than the actual world (and boy, am I gonna be pissed when Nissa defeats Bolas by manipulating the leylines in him), could we at least have had her overcome Kefnet's Trial through actual cunning, as opposed to a stroke of luck?
So, comparing Innistrad to Lorwyn?
Honestly, having read about the Mirage War (thanks, Quannage!), I find it odd that anyone would compare Mirage and Amonkhet at all; the stories have nothing in common.
I'd like to know, since Mirage predates when I started playing (Odyssey block, FYI); what even was the flavor and/or story of the Mirage-block?
The flavortext for that one is just... d**kish.
"Fire? Is that your only trick, Chandra?"
Seems like Hour of Devastation will be our "Breaking of the Fellowship".
Those were oldwalkers, though. Y'know, the near-omnipotent beings that made the writing staff create the Time Spiral block so they could get rid off them? I don't Think you can invoke that argument when WotC fundamentally changed the entire setting to prevent it. Neowalkers are supposed to be wizards, very powerful ones at that, but still not "mistaken for Gods" powerful.
(Granted, you could argue that Gideon could be mistaken for a God on some plane, but at that point, the "mistaken for Gods" statement loses any relevancy to the reading audience, because what a tier of power a "God" is supposed to be is so fluid, it might as well be meaningless)
As for the claim about assumption about Gods, well... when terms like "Gods" are being thrown around, most of us probably fill in what being a God entails from other settings or mythology, which in most cases carry with it the expectation that they're the be-all, end-all of their setting. Yes, it's assumptive, but what else are we supposed to do? When you say "God", I'm not going to be able to act like it's a word that I've never heard before and has no prior context.
I will admit that I'm much less upset about Nissa overcoming Kefnet now than when I first read it, but I still feel that it was poorly written, because the Gods-are-made-of-leylines thing felt like it was an ass-pull. Had that fact been established earlier, I think it would have been less controversial.
They could have been carved by someone who remembered what the world was like before Bolas, or just before Bolas left. Gotta agree with the ending feeling terribly rushed - was it written just before deadline or something?
I dunno, the Viashino seem like they'd correspond to Bontu if they existed on Amonkhet. Burning-Tree Bloodscale, Thorn-Thrash Viashino and Thunder-Thrash Elder come to mind.
I think a lot of decisions Creative made have proven to be somewhat incompatible with the current story, like Jace being the Living Guildpact. The guy is essentially to Ravnica what the President is to the USA; someone who can't just up and disappear as he wishes without telling someone where he's going, for how long, how do they get a hold of him in case of emergency, etc, etc.
I would assume they're like the horns in Pools of Becoming. Dragon sticks his brand on everything.
Yes, I dislike the storytelling; why the f*** do you think I'm complaining? The storytelling of MtG as a whole has deteriorated since BfZ, and I blame the s*** writing where the Gatewatch are concerned for that - not because the idea of a group of planeswalkers working together bothers me, but because I consider the writing to be bad. Threats like Tezzeret I can accept them fighting and beating, but the Eldrazi? Gods?
Chandra, per Wizards own established canon, is just a pyromancer who can planeswalk: how do you expect me to take the story seriously when she kills Cthulhu? Or when Nissa mindr**** a God into submission despite never even trying something like that before, while she's under direct mental assault?
I'm not projecting; I just consider the story about the GW to be a poorly thought out, poorly told mess, on par with fanfiction. When you keep pitting them against threats that they should by all rights not even be in danger of inconveniencing, yet keep having them come out on top, it robs the setting of any gravitas it might have had.
Do you know what separates an Oldwalker from Neowalkers/the Gatewatch? Imagine five ants trying to fight a bull elephant. The Gatewatch are not a bad idea, but the story's been so bungled where they are concerned, that I'd rather they just get broken up at this point. The contrivances that have to be implemented in order for the GW to not get clownstomped by some of the threats they face is killing my interest the setting.
I understand if you like them, they're like a Magic version of the Avengers, but I simply don't care for how they've been handled. They are supposed to be regular mages outside of the planeswalking, yet they keep overcoming threats that by all right shouldn't even register them as a nuisance. It's like Spiderman beating Thanos in a straight fight; no. Just no.
Why do you assume Bolas "practically left her the blueprints"? Hell, how would Nissa even recognize something like that? She's not a trained telepath, and I doubt Bolas would MC the Gods by "altering the leylines", since that's not generally his kind of thing.
But overlooking all of that... why do we even pretend that the Planeswalker Spark was altered after the Time Spiral-block? The Gatewatch are pulling off things that I would have accepted from an Oldwalker, but they are supposed to just be regular mages who happen to be able to walk between the Planes now!
And yet... overcoming Gods, whom they've never encountered before, know nothing about, in a matter of seconds? Killing Cthuloid monstrosities that devour entire worlds? At this point in the narrative, we might as well just restore Planeswalkers to the overgods they used to be, because the Gatewatch keep pulling that kind of power out of their a******s anyway.
My issue with that is that it's so different from leylines it might as well not be, and the only reason they're called that is because WotC's writers couldn't think of a way for Nissa to overcome Kefnet otherwise.
If we placed Chandra in Nissa's situation, how would she have overcome Kefnet? Well, in this case, it'd be because Kefnet just happens to be made of kindling. What bothers me, and I realise this is subjective, is that the story felt like it was written around Nissa's abilities. Instead of having Nissa Think of a clever way to overcome Kefnet, they instead asked "Ok, what can Nissa do. Answer: leylines. So how does she defeat Kefnet. Answer: he just happens to be made of leylines!"
It's so convenient that it breaks my suspencion of disbelief. How does the character who's magic is based around leylines defeat a God of Knowledge and telepathy? He conveniantly happens to be made of the one thing that the leyline-focused character can affect.
The thing is, leylines (or ley lines) are not nomadic, nor are leyline nexuses (nexi?) ambulatory. Saying that the gods are leyline nexi when they can freely move around... to use Perkunas687's highway analogy, your intersection just got up and walked the f*** away.
I can't speak for everyone else, but it bother me because 1) Nissa is starting to become a one-trick-pony in my mind, where Everything she does seemingly must involve leylines, and 2) Nissa overcoming a God, singlehandedly, by manipulating the leylines in his head or something, instinctively... overlooking the issue of leylines now being part of things other than the actual world (and boy, am I gonna be pissed when Nissa defeats Bolas by manipulating the leylines in him), could we at least have had her overcome Kefnet's Trial through actual cunning, as opposed to a stroke of luck?