i think one problem is the distribution of power between colors is off, over the years the creators have deemed some aspects to be "anti fun", discard is one such mechanic that i think is has a strong argument for this. as such the power of these effects have been striped from their respective colors creating a vacuum of none interactivity and significantly skewing the viability of color combinations and representation to one side.
these effects were once the core identity of their respective color and without an adequate replacement or rebalance of power between colors you have had two outcomes of power dispartity and the break down of magic as being fun. in the legacy format you have the undisputed dominance of blue with no true equal to it. you cant play rock paper scissors if you are missing one of those elements.
in standard you have an extreme fear of creating overly strong cards that house the original color identities so you have had everything effectively neutered to the point where you play bleh cards with very low levels of synergy, as well as the slowing down of the game as a whole this is whats known as reverse power creep in other games. without the ability to play big bold plays that outright win games magic loses that "wow" factor that other games capitalize on to engross their player base
so a while ago i wrote this thread about creating equipment hate for black, and i was met with comments such as "muh flavor" and "muh color wheel" i just want to point out that none of those mean anything as stated in the thread cards that do this exist and that the design framework has nothing to do with what black can do as a color. artifact hate is not equipment hate and if you still wish to argue this point with me please look to the new card as proof that "muh color wheel" and "muh flavor" are not valid arguments. with artifact hate being a much broader design space then equipment hate there is room for more cards such as Artificer's Hex in black.
that said hopefully you color pie/flavor advocates now have some perspective as to the difference between a design framework and the relevance of flavor. the point here being that what is "allowable" for a color to function, whether that function can "overlap" and whether that function is a "weakness" are what determine if a card should be printed not what some silly text on a the color wheel describes.
Nullrod is a fine sideboard card and has been used by many tier one decks. It's been repeated to you over and over again that you lose some utility if you want to run monocolor. END OF STORY. You don't get everything you want.
show me the top tier deck thats not splashing black, and when running multicolor doesnt use the removal cards i listed intead of nullrod.
You know what the saddest thing is? Mono black can already solve this problem so easily with discard and -X-X effects
you realize that -x effects are hurting black too, this basically forces black to play graveyard based decks which already has been massively over developed with counters to it. your argument that sweepers are an answer is a crutch because if that was the case black would not be so unviable
Not a single person has commented any level of agreement
if your definition of agreement is spaming the color pie and whining about "muh flavor" and linking to existing framework like it was written in stone despite changing all the time. then ill be happy to keep telling you your wrong, so why dont you let that sink in
No, unconditional creature destruction is different and distinct from whatever blue red, and white get.
counterspell is a higher level interaction then removal, and so is exiling. red can go face which is less narrow then creature removal, in legacy targeting a creature in many cases is not possible. so there is no such thing as unconditional creature removal.
as for nullrod its too narrow for it to be useful as a sideboard card. you have 4 slots to counter storm, 4 slots counter graveyard combos, 3-4 slots for pithing needle to counter walkers/lands/trigger effects. then at least 2 slots for ratchet bomb to deal with difficult permanents. that leaves you with about 2 possible slots which i use for toxic deluge to deal with super uninteractable cards like TNN and other creatures of that nature so where exactly do i slot in this null rod? at least with the enchantment we have been discussing i have a reason to swap out deluge
Black cards are discard, unconditional destruction of creatures and -x/-x effects. Black has card drawing for life, and sacrifice effects and so on.
today the only thing thats unique to black is discard, creature destruction belongs to blue white and even red in many cases because of the shift in power away from damage to utility,with black creatures it doesnt take much to kill them (black doesnt get hexproof). drawing and tutoring is present in blue red white and green, sacrifice effects are also not very powerful outside of pox. what black has is graveyard mechanics which have many counters in many forms
Black wouldn't get pacifism nowadays, because I checked, torment is really just one card and it was printed over 20 years ago, well before wizards had any idea of the current color pie, that is literally like saying black should get pure artifact destruction just because of phyrexian gate.
no the point is that WOTC didnt have a clear idea of what black was back then and it doesnt now. the hayday when black was top tier has been dead for a long time. in its current state it wont ever come back unless theres a re balance of sorts. printing more griselbrands wont fix the problem
making it a hate card doesn't give credence to break the color pie.
if this rigid thinking was so set in stone, WOTC would have far more banned cards in legacy and they would probably just retire the format as a whole. the logic doesnt hold up when you consider how legacy works and the fact that legacy legal cards are still being made
it seems to be either a reactive instant speed, or a preemptive all encompassing,
for destroy effects it should be instant, but i think we dont really need a destroy effect as a enchantment makes more sense. my point was that i feel subtype hate should be possible for black in legacy and making a instant speed single target destroy spell wouldnt be broken considering the power curve of the format.
card that can 'nullify' an equipment after its been equipped
so yes this is what i was originally advocating for
(this is important because you keep saying Null Rod is useless)
im saying that null rod does not answer the effects of the equipment i care about, what does null rod do against the protection and +2 of a sword?
don't want to answer the creature preemptively
yes, its entirely a sideboard card and its too inefficient
you specifically want it to 'turn off' the utility of the equipment
yes
This sounds very pushed but I'm not sure it's strong enough to be run in Legacy
i dont think it needs to make the creature a 0/2 so if you think its pushed its your idea
- You think that it would be an interesting bit of design space for black to have equipment hate and want to discuss what this could look like.
- You feel like black is underrepresented in the competitive metagame and feel that black should be given more Equipment hate in the interest of competitive balance.
Which is it?
both, for the later more so in legacy
To the second point: If you're dealing with Legacy or Modern then you're only handicapping yourself by limiting your options to one color
its a question of playstyle preference that i dont find represented in other colors, also the format i prefer. printing cards for a specific format is possible if it wasnt i wouldnt care so much and move on to a more stable format
when every other color has an answer you cant make an argument that its ok for there to be no compensation.
because early designers clearly didn't have a grasp on how to do this
and therefore we shouldnt fix it? why does WOTC bother printing new legacy only cards, why not retire the format then
but you haven't shown why it should be in black's design space over any other colors
because EVERY other color already has an answer
it is jus tour interpretations of the design guidelines
you have put forth two arguments repeatedly, one is "this doesnt feel like black" and the second is a link to the rules describing card interactions and EXISTING framework, both of those are NOT design guidelines, the later is also repeatedly altered on a regular basis. these are the REAL guidelines
many of you cant tell the difference between a triggered, active, and passive property, maybe at least now you can identify what a framework and a guideline look like
Duress is an answer to equipment to the same extent that Mana Leak is. Both require you to have and play the answer before the Equipment hits the field and can't do squat about it afterward. Blue's post-resolution answer is to bounce it. Black's is to stop the opponent from having a creature to attach it to. Neither is a great answer, but that's how the color pie works.
is duress instant speed? once again as a reminder im not even arguing for modern power level answers to begin with. my point is that even at modern the balance between colors is already unfair
edit: i dont want to post constantly so ill just reply here. since we are talking about tutoring a sword were talking about legacy, which means you are now in a match up against control, so if they want to hold on to their EQUIP we are talking about playing through a force of willcounterspell, spell pierce, counterbalance control package. discard is not effective after they hit about 2-3 mana. even at 1 mana brainstorm > hide key creature or equip on top of library or cast FOW if you really have to. the only secure way to respond is at instant speed when they are taped out, and dont use FOW otherwise they wait you out because black has no medium creature threats and small creatures with utility are easy to kill so theres no tempo. if your playing combo counterspell is easy to win with, and if your playing control just wait out the discards and then stomp with creatures
notice that 4/5 colors have answers yet black has nothing, im not even asking for a modern legal card to begin with.
furthermore black shouldnt have pacifism right? i present to you Demonic Torment my suggested card idea is better because its more narrow and answers the passive/triggered properties of most equipment null rod does not. my idea also has a built in self counter, you can always not equip your creature or switch equip to different creature. finally a -3 aura wouldnt even kill a Insectile Aberration or deal with the real threat of the passive/triggered properties of equipment
the "flavor" of my card is sabotage if this isnt in blacks wheel house your completely disingenuous
your treating subtypes like some kind of physical property, rather then a design framework. you really have a completely backwards understanding of the actual interactions involved from a design point of view. the whole point of a Primary type isnt that equipment has to be attached to it, its that it ensures certain interactions and restrictions are attached to it. there is plenty of history on what and how artifacts are treated across the play styles (colors) of magic. there isnt however very much that deals with specifically EQUIPMENT. if you print a card with target TYPE then you have a broader range of possible interactions then if you target a SUBTYPE. as i said there is no rule that says equipment HAS TO BE artifacts. what you have quoted is a framework describing a relationship. there is nothing design wise that prevents this framework from being changed if they decide to make new permanents possible as equipment the description will also change. the discussion is about design not how everything is set in stone by your narrow interpretation of whats possible.
let me frame it so you can understand.
what cards specifically interact with equipment
how broad is the interaction
is this interaction a strength of the color its attached to
is this interaction preferable to other options within the color
is there space to add this interaction without damaging the broader frame work (i.e. is it narrow enough)
is this interaction balanced in the intended scope of format its meant for
by your logic enchantment creatures shouldnt be possible yet its happend
Do you have any ideas or suggestions about how to implement something like what you are looking for that isn't (a) a breach of the color pie and/or (b) too narrow to be playable? I'm actually curious about this, because there is some interesting potential design space here.
well the reason i made this thread was because i was hoping some others would jump in with their own ideas, but since you asked i was thinking something like the following
weigh down 1BB
enchantment
equipped creatures can not block or attack
(just to be clear this is something i would make legacy playable only)
Or was that out of context again?
yes
you wanted a more powerful immediate answer to artifacts
no i wanted an impactful answer to EQUIPMENT
while answers like destroy target equipment just don't get blacks flavor and style across for me.
in newer formats i would agree but clearly not everyone sticks to modern+
Equipment are artifacts, so yes, equipment hate IS artifact hate.
no equipment is equipment, its a subtype. you realize you can make enchantment equipment, creature equipment, land equipment. functionally speaking equipment is a reusable aura permenant . the problem is that in older formats the utility is so impactful it makes no sense not to print a control mechanic. in newer formats destruction would be too powerful. how ever imo black not having hate cards for EQUIPMENT, has nothing to do with maintaining "flavor" its more to do with need for such cards/ unused design space
Paraphrased: The answer needs to be instant speed to prevent the opponent from getting immediate value out of it.
No what your doing here is demonstrating your lack of reading comprehension, what i said was its POWER CURVE is not high because it is NOT instant speed, and then proceeding to straw man the argument by concluding with an incorrect interpretation of the facts being given, what that comment demonstrates is that the spell in question has ZERO impact because it has NO INTERACTION with the passive and triggered properties of equipment. To further the explanation this card can not attack the creature/equipment combo from any angle/timing.
Paraphrased: The answer can't be discard because the opponent is tutoring for the equipment and then immediately playing it.
once again you fail to read the context of the comment i was responding to, the argument given was a generalization of black, i responded with a generalization of my analysis of black. and what i feel are areas that could be improved, these are TWO SEPARATE solutions notice the use of the word OR, your not going to be able to discard every equipment against a deck with massive tutoring and counter spells, you may get one through but your next discard spell will be countered and then they will tutor and cast an equipment. at this point you have 0 answers to the pattern im describing
so i will repeat myself dont put words in my mouth
like I said, artifcer's hex is one card
do you really need me to link the 2nd post in this very thread with several more, you want to play the fan boy go somewhere else, if you actually have some valid input like "it would be overpowered in modern" for example im willing to listen but your not constructive or objective so i think your said your piece
these effects were once the core identity of their respective color and without an adequate replacement or rebalance of power between colors you have had two outcomes of power dispartity and the break down of magic as being fun. in the legacy format you have the undisputed dominance of blue with no true equal to it. you cant play rock paper scissors if you are missing one of those elements.
in standard you have an extreme fear of creating overly strong cards that house the original color identities so you have had everything effectively neutered to the point where you play bleh cards with very low levels of synergy, as well as the slowing down of the game as a whole this is whats known as reverse power creep in other games. without the ability to play big bold plays that outright win games magic loses that "wow" factor that other games capitalize on to engross their player base
that said hopefully you color pie/flavor advocates now have some perspective as to the difference between a design framework and the relevance of flavor. the point here being that what is "allowable" for a color to function, whether that function can "overlap" and whether that function is a "weakness" are what determine if a card should be printed not what some silly text on a the color wheel describes.
you realize that -x effects are hurting black too, this basically forces black to play graveyard based decks which already has been massively over developed with counters to it. your argument that sweepers are an answer is a crutch because if that was the case black would not be so unviable
if your definition of agreement is spaming the color pie and whining about "muh flavor" and linking to existing framework like it was written in stone despite changing all the time. then ill be happy to keep telling you your wrong, so why dont you let that sink in
counterspell is a higher level interaction then removal, and so is exiling. red can go face which is less narrow then creature removal, in legacy targeting a creature in many cases is not possible. so there is no such thing as unconditional creature removal.
as for nullrod its too narrow for it to be useful as a sideboard card. you have 4 slots to counter storm, 4 slots counter graveyard combos, 3-4 slots for pithing needle to counter walkers/lands/trigger effects. then at least 2 slots for ratchet bomb to deal with difficult permanents. that leaves you with about 2 possible slots which i use for toxic deluge to deal with super uninteractable cards like TNN and other creatures of that nature so where exactly do i slot in this null rod? at least with the enchantment we have been discussing i have a reason to swap out deluge
today the only thing thats unique to black is discard, creature destruction belongs to blue white and even red in many cases because of the shift in power away from damage to utility,with black creatures it doesnt take much to kill them (black doesnt get hexproof). drawing and tutoring is present in blue red white and green, sacrifice effects are also not very powerful outside of pox. what black has is graveyard mechanics which have many counters in many forms
no the point is that WOTC didnt have a clear idea of what black was back then and it doesnt now. the hayday when black was top tier has been dead for a long time. in its current state it wont ever come back unless theres a re balance of sorts. printing more griselbrands wont fix the problem
if this rigid thinking was so set in stone, WOTC would have far more banned cards in legacy and they would probably just retire the format as a whole. the logic doesnt hold up when you consider how legacy works and the fact that legacy legal cards are still being made
for destroy effects it should be instant, but i think we dont really need a destroy effect as a enchantment makes more sense. my point was that i feel subtype hate should be possible for black in legacy and making a instant speed single target destroy spell wouldnt be broken considering the power curve of the format.
so yes this is what i was originally advocating for
im saying that null rod does not answer the effects of the equipment i care about, what does null rod do against the protection and +2 of a sword?
yes, its entirely a sideboard card and its too inefficient
yes
i dont think it needs to make the creature a 0/2 so if you think its pushed its your idea
both, for the later more so in legacy
its a question of playstyle preference that i dont find represented in other colors, also the format i prefer. printing cards for a specific format is possible if it wasnt i wouldnt care so much and move on to a more stable format
and therefore we shouldnt fix it? why does WOTC bother printing new legacy only cards, why not retire the format then
because EVERY other color already has an answer
you have put forth two arguments repeatedly, one is "this doesnt feel like black" and the second is a link to the rules describing card interactions and EXISTING framework, both of those are NOT design guidelines, the later is also repeatedly altered on a regular basis. these are the REAL guidelines
many of you cant tell the difference between a triggered, active, and passive property, maybe at least now you can identify what a framework and a guideline look like
is duress instant speed? once again as a reminder im not even arguing for modern power level answers to begin with. my point is that even at modern the balance between colors is already unfair
edit: i dont want to post constantly so ill just reply here. since we are talking about tutoring a sword were talking about legacy, which means you are now in a match up against control, so if they want to hold on to their EQUIP we are talking about playing through a force of will counterspell, spell pierce, counterbalance control package. discard is not effective after they hit about 2-3 mana. even at 1 mana brainstorm > hide key creature or equip on top of library or cast FOW if you really have to. the only secure way to respond is at instant speed when they are taped out, and dont use FOW otherwise they wait you out because black has no medium creature threats and small creatures with utility are easy to kill so theres no tempo. if your playing combo counterspell is easy to win with, and if your playing control just wait out the discards and then stomp with creatures
heres whats legal in modern right now
notice that 4/5 colors have answers yet black has nothing, im not even asking for a modern legal card to begin with.
furthermore black shouldnt have pacifism right? i present to you Demonic Torment my suggested card idea is better because its more narrow and answers the passive/triggered properties of most equipment null rod does not. my idea also has a built in self counter, you can always not equip your creature or switch equip to different creature. finally a -3 aura wouldnt even kill a Insectile Aberration or deal with the real threat of the passive/triggered properties of equipment
the "flavor" of my card is sabotage if this isnt in blacks wheel house your completely disingenuous
let me frame it so you can understand.
what cards specifically interact with equipment
how broad is the interaction
is this interaction a strength of the color its attached to
is this interaction preferable to other options within the color
is there space to add this interaction without damaging the broader frame work (i.e. is it narrow enough)
is this interaction balanced in the intended scope of format its meant for
by your logic enchantment creatures shouldnt be possible yet its happend
weigh down
1BB
enchantment
equipped creatures can not block or attack
(just to be clear this is something i would make legacy playable only)
yes
no i wanted an impactful answer to EQUIPMENT
in newer formats i would agree but clearly not everyone sticks to modern+
no equipment is equipment, its a subtype. you realize you can make enchantment equipment, creature equipment, land equipment. functionally speaking equipment is a reusable aura permenant . the problem is that in older formats the utility is so impactful it makes no sense not to print a control mechanic. in newer formats destruction would be too powerful. how ever imo black not having hate cards for EQUIPMENT, has nothing to do with maintaining "flavor" its more to do with need for such cards/ unused design space
once again you fail to read the context of the comment i was responding to, the argument given was a generalization of black, i responded with a generalization of my analysis of black. and what i feel are areas that could be improved, these are TWO SEPARATE solutions notice the use of the word OR, your not going to be able to discard every equipment against a deck with massive tutoring and counter spells, you may get one through but your next discard spell will be countered and then they will tutor and cast an equipment. at this point you have 0 answers to the pattern im describing
so i will repeat myself dont put words in my mouth
do you really need me to link the 2nd post in this very thread with several more, you want to play the fan boy go somewhere else, if you actually have some valid input like "it would be overpowered in modern" for example im willing to listen but your not constructive or objective so i think your said your piece