Personally in the match up section of your primer i wouldn't say the strong against or weak against since you can't say 100% sure that this match up is favourable since the decks that your reader are playing against might be different from what you are playing against. Rather, consider outlining deck archetypes and certain deck lists/commanders and how you can fight them and your silver bullets for them (for voltron has sigarda, rafiq and uril, ramp has any green commander ... so on and so forth)
You have a point at that decklists can differ for one Commander but it's still the same Commander and it usually defines gameplan anyway. Sheoldred IS strong against most general-centric decks (excluding token-makers like Prossh) being them aggro, voltrol, combo or just goodstuff. If they can't keep their Commander on board they are severaly crippled and usually lose. Multiplayer environment redefines it of course but I played a lot at tables with Uril, Kaalia, Rafiq, Narset and many other and saw Sheoldred's impact on their boardstate and strategy. It's not only Sheoldred herself but also amount and type of removal my deck packs.
Anyway I'm working on a more detailed list of generals I face in my meta so stay tuned.
*stifled giggle at the word "goodstuff" coming out of the woodwork in the thread* ;).
I think I'll stick with Thran Dynamo, because I'm considerably more top heavy than you. Tutor wise, I think the list in the primer (you've still got the demon in there) is around the sweet spot.
Haha, goodstuff indeed. Some cards are simply worth playing regardless of strategy you take and Commander you choose, Crypt Ghast, Puppeteer Clique or Gray Merchant of Asphodel being prime examples. I tend to steer away from having too many goodstuff contents though and Rune-Scarred Demon belongs to it. It's also too expensive for a tutor as when I cast one I usually need mana to play what I searched for right away. I think I already found viable replacement for it - long forgotten Havoc Demon. It can replace both Rune-Scarred and Massacre Wurm - it doesn't tutor and kills my stuff but most importantly - it can serve as instant (with sac outlet), repeatable mass removal which doesn't kill Shelly. Now only to get one...
I'm not enirely sure about what to swap Hedron Archive for yet. Thran Dynamo is good even if slow at times but I don't need a lot of mana early on as Vysogota pointed out. The exception is Myojin which needs to be cast as soon as possible but it's only one card... On the other hand I need as much draw as I can fit in. Cards like Overeager Apprentice, Dark Ritual and cheap mana rocks can empty my hand fast and I need to refill. I even think about getting Mind Stone back in.
As for creature importance Vysogota mentioned, there are only three must-have creatures in this deck: Mindslicer, Myojin and Sheoldred herself. The rest is support/ramp/goodstuff so I could get rid of any of them easily but I've chosen my strategy and flavor already so things like Dimir House Guard or Phyrexian Revoker stay. As for a Demon I still have mixed feelings - it's both tutor and fat flyer for me but it's also the same for opponent. While I can kill it if Bribered most of the time it already tutored something useful like wincon piece. The most important question is - how many tutors are too much/too few? I currently run 3 + Dimir/Fleshwrither + Demon eventually.
While most of your changes seem to make sense, I don't understand the Demon->Phalanx swap at all. Netherborn Phalanx sucks - it's a Sheldon Menery type of card which may be good for battlecruiser metas, but not for ours. It's slow, there are better cards doing the same thing (Massacre Wurm, as you've already noticed) and even the tutor part is mediocre - what are you going to search for, Mindslaver? Rune-Scarred Demon is way better, especially if you're adding YawgWin to your deck.
When speaking of "our meta" you have to admit that having 7 mana to play stuff is rare unless you pack a lot of fast artifact mana. You're right about Phalanx though - there are better options to consider. Demon is fine unless playing against blue decks which happens all the time... I wonder if Sculpting Steel could make a cut here?
Big update ahead. Played against Oblivion Sower last week and decided to give it a chance. Didn't draw it in games I played yet but it surely has a lot of potential. I will probably use even more grave-exiling stuff to make it more viable. Also working on a list of things to change and for this moment I consider:
Oblivion Sower - needs both grave hate cards and lands in opponent graveyard (or luck in exiling cards from library) but I saw how it worked and I like the one too
Congrats on the primer. Well deserved! Also, this way I'm not tempted to turn my crummy list into one
I've had a decent degree of success with Dictate of Erebos and Butcher of Malakir, but I tuned my list to be able to deal with massively back-breaking hasted fat appearing out of nowhere (just meta things) and those really help. I don't run Living Death though, whilst it seems to be a vital component of this deck's play style.
If the rumoured enchantment comes to be, I'm totes slotting it into my list, probably in place of Gilded Lotus. What are your thoughts on the new black walker? Probably too slow for you, but I'm quite tempted.
Thank you:)
My meta is more "staxy and controlish" so I rarely face hastened fatties coming my way and I think I already have enough ways to deal with them anyway. I may try Dictate or Pact but I wished I had more ways to deal with fast artifact ramp instead.
As for new Ob while he looks solid he's kind of slow. Liliana works in similar way and her ultimate is way stronger than his (and more likely to go off as she comes in earlier). Most of the time he will kill one creature and die to combat in multiplayer environment.
If it comes to that I will include only one of the above - sacrifice enchantment or planeswaker. I don't have enough space for both.
Doesn't have to be from BFZ, there are plenty of older cards to choose from. Have you tried Grave Pact or Dictate of Erebos?
I don't play enough creatures to make them valid and while I use sac outlets or self-saccing dudes I don't think it's enough. Sheoldred does the most in offensive sacrifice department I need and when I want to clear a table I cast Damnation or Deluge. Pact and Dictate also work against my Living Death strategy when I need to sac my own dudes first to bring them back and kill opponent's creatures with the same spell. I would consider them if I played more token-makers as Trading Post is the only one here and I'm going to get rid of it anyway. If rumored enchantment will become flesh I'll reconsider putting one of them in though. Grave Pack fits 4CC toolbox. Thanks for suggestions, I'll update possible card list.
Primer status achieved! Phyrexia is now ready to conquer other worlds! On more serious note I wonder when the "Return to New Phyrexia" will occur? In four years? Later maybe? Or will they move to conquer another plane as they should?
Status report: Eye of Doooom is getting better and better in pods I play. Last Thursday it was countered twice to prevent it from destroying a lot of early ramp and stax effects. I won first game with usual stuff - mass discard + Contamination lock but lost other two due to some mistakes and two denial spells against EoD I mentioned. On the other side Trading Post does very little in every game I draw it so it'll be first candidate to replace. Seeing card spoiled for BFZ I don't see much viable options yet:
Ruinous Path - sorcery speed makes it worse than Hero's Downfall and I don't really need any manland to be killed by my own mass removal later
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - exile two is powerfull but a cost of 10 is too much and while I can reanimate him this time it's not ETB effect to abuse. It's more suited for Azusa and such.
Glad to see you updating your list. How does a typical Eye of Doom scenario play out for you?
Well I surely don't cast it when I'm winning or when I have dominant table position. Sheoldred isn't the fastest deck in my meta (one of the slowest ones in fact considering group of "hardcore" players I mostly play with) so usually someone else takes the lead and has to be put down. EoD is great for killing things like Stranglehold, manadoublers or othernon-creaturethreats. The trick is to choose a permanent which hurts only/mostly Sheoldred or one with lesser boardstate impact (like a big mana rock) and leave those more oppressive ones for other opponents' choices. This way they usually won't choose my stuff as some other things has to be taken care of first. Politics plays a big role here but Eye never backfires in healthy environment if played at the right moment. It also doesn't target which can be relevant sometimes.
Over a year has passed and many things has changed in a deck. My meta grew to be very competitive in their Commander and strategy choices and I had to adapt. More speed, more removal and more hate to face Derevi stax, Narset combo, Edrik aggro, big red Akroma, Azusa, Zegana and few cutthroat mono-blue stax-combo-controls. Updated whole post along with the current list I play. Below are some most recent changes I made in that time:
Changes (Mar 2015): Karn Liberated -> Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - most important update after Fate Reforget hit Phyrexian Obliterator -> Mindslaver - card became more popular in our meta and it fits deck's strategy anyway Geth's Verdict -> Hero's Downfall - targeted removal became more important in my meta (Sphinx, Prophet etc) Shriekmav -> Toxic Deluge - another major update as I finally acquired this card Arena -> Swamp - not needed without Obliterator Marsh Flats -> Swamp - thinning a deck is not that important
Changes (Jun 2015): Erebos, God of the Dead -> Trading Post - costed me too much life so decided to test this multipurpose artifact in his place Grave Titan -> Massacre Wurm - meta became full of small mana creatures so it seems like a perfect fit against them
I would mention Rest in Peace here as well - it hurts you the same as LotV and it's way easier to cast (and thus more playable).
Yea but RiP hurts its owner too while Leyline works only for opponents and I have yet to see competitive deck not using its own graveyard even a little bit. It's a valid hate card though, I'll add it.
The problem is Exsanguinate is ONLY a finisher. I doesn't kill or destroy, discard cards or block, it only drains life. Is empty when drawn early and casting it for X less then 20 is a waste. I'd better run Maga or Profane Command in that slot but they didn't make a cut either.
Army of the Damned is nice in my Erebos list. I threw it in on a whim but it's an absolute house. 26 power can close games pretty quickly, and if they get wrathed, you can always flash it back.
This one's interesting. I did run it in my Traximundar flashback control and it may fit here too. Zombies ETB tapped but without haste they wouldn't attack the same turn anyway. Now I only have to think about what to cut to make a room.
Updated first post a lot, now applying for primer status.
After a lot of games I got a feeling a deck is little slow, not in a sense of ramp but killing speed. There are times I have control over a table (Contamination or mass discard) but cannot kill fast enough till opps finally manage to recover. One game I had over 30 mana and tutored for 3 cards with Ambition but couldn't do a finishing move (graveyards were emptied so no Rise). Other time I had a Contamination lock and could attack with Solemn and Clique only. Sure I play without infinite low-card-count combos but I should be able to finish games faster. My opponents complain when I go into tutor mode and cannot decide what to pull out to win or put myself into winning position. I usually win anyway but after a long run. I miss Sundering Titan - it was a beater at least. Only Grave Titan, tutor-Demon, Koko and Shelly can beat face hard enough.
What fat do you thing would fit here? I'm looking for something with both body and skills. I think about adding Obliterator with Arena I listed in Phyrexian flavored decklist (second post) to up my fatty count but that may not be enough. Some demon maybe?
With that line of thinking, wouldn't Nekrataal be better than Shriekmaw?
Shriekmav is two-mana spell usually which means half the cost of Necrataal. The other thing is neither of them kill black/artifact creatures and that's sometimes a problem in my meta so it's not the priority search target. I have Snuff Out in that slot already.
Kind of shocked that Vesuva is not in this list as Coffers #2.
I play Thespian's Stage in that place and honestly I rarely have anything to copy. If I have Coffers out (and keep them out for enough time) I'm already winning and Deserted Temple serves as Coffers#2 anyway. The problem with Vesuva is it gives me two uncomfortable choices - keep it in hand till I get Coffers out or play it as a tapped Swamp when I simply need lands to build. Stage is better option here.
I did run Marauder but cut him when looking for slots. He's still a viable option and I got a foil one so he may come back someday but there is a lot of sacrifice effects already. Reaper is better here since I can find him with DHG and Fleshwrither.
Made major changes to the post, now it looks much better at least. Decklist changed too and it's almost perfect now. I'm looking forward to challenging you again GMA, I'm sure I'll beat you up no problem this time :).
Looking at forums I'm kind of suprised that Shelly isn't getting much love - there are mostly Chainers, Geths and Xiahous around here while she is clearly much more powerful.
You have a point at that decklists can differ for one Commander but it's still the same Commander and it usually defines gameplan anyway. Sheoldred IS strong against most general-centric decks (excluding token-makers like Prossh) being them aggro, voltrol, combo or just goodstuff. If they can't keep their Commander on board they are severaly crippled and usually lose. Multiplayer environment redefines it of course but I played a lot at tables with Uril, Kaalia, Rafiq, Narset and many other and saw Sheoldred's impact on their boardstate and strategy. It's not only Sheoldred herself but also amount and type of removal my deck packs.
Anyway I'm working on a more detailed list of generals I face in my meta so stay tuned.
Haha, goodstuff indeed. Some cards are simply worth playing regardless of strategy you take and Commander you choose, Crypt Ghast, Puppeteer Clique or Gray Merchant of Asphodel being prime examples. I tend to steer away from having too many goodstuff contents though and Rune-Scarred Demon belongs to it. It's also too expensive for a tutor as when I cast one I usually need mana to play what I searched for right away. I think I already found viable replacement for it - long forgotten Havoc Demon. It can replace both Rune-Scarred and Massacre Wurm - it doesn't tutor and kills my stuff but most importantly - it can serve as instant (with sac outlet), repeatable mass removal which doesn't kill Shelly. Now only to get one...
As for creature importance Vysogota mentioned, there are only three must-have creatures in this deck: Mindslicer, Myojin and Sheoldred herself. The rest is support/ramp/goodstuff so I could get rid of any of them easily but I've chosen my strategy and flavor already so things like Dimir House Guard or Phyrexian Revoker stay. As for a Demon I still have mixed feelings - it's both tutor and fat flyer for me but it's also the same for opponent. While I can kill it if Bribered most of the time it already tutored something useful like wincon piece. The most important question is - how many tutors are too much/too few? I currently run 3 + Dimir/Fleshwrither + Demon eventually.
When speaking of "our meta" you have to admit that having 7 mana to play stuff is rare unless you pack a lot of fast artifact mana. You're right about Phalanx though - there are better options to consider. Demon is fine unless playing against blue decks which happens all the time... I wonder if Sculpting Steel could make a cut here?
- Oblivion Sower - needs both grave hate cards and lands in opponent graveyard (or luck in exiling cards from library) but I saw how it worked and I like the one too
- Shred Memory - strictly for Sower but can also tutor for Phyrexian Revoker or removal / counter among the others
- Netherborn Phalanx - kind of dedundant with Massacre Wurm but can find Sower
- Yawgmoth's Will - I'm going to use it for bringing back Coffers and artifact mana mostly but I was going to test it anyway
- Hedron Archive - double Mind Stone is always welcomed
- Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - moar mana is good
Cards in going to replace:Thank you:)
My meta is more "staxy and controlish" so I rarely face hastened fatties coming my way and I think I already have enough ways to deal with them anyway. I may try Dictate or Pact but I wished I had more ways to deal with fast artifact ramp instead.
As for new Ob while he looks solid he's kind of slow. Liliana works in similar way and her ultimate is way stronger than his (and more likely to go off as she comes in earlier). Most of the time he will kill one creature and die to combat in multiplayer environment.
If it comes to that I will include only one of the above - sacrifice enchantment or planeswaker. I don't have enough space for both.
I don't play enough creatures to make them valid and while I use sac outlets or self-saccing dudes I don't think it's enough. Sheoldred does the most in offensive sacrifice department I need and when I want to clear a table I cast Damnation or Deluge. Pact and Dictate also work against my Living Death strategy when I need to sac my own dudes first to bring them back and kill opponent's creatures with the same spell. I would consider them if I played more token-makers as Trading Post is the only one here and I'm going to get rid of it anyway. If rumored enchantment will become flesh I'll reconsider putting one of them in though. Grave Pack fits 4CC toolbox. Thanks for suggestions, I'll update possible card list.
Status report: Eye of Doooom is getting better and better in pods I play. Last Thursday it was countered twice to prevent it from destroying a lot of early ramp and stax effects. I won first game with usual stuff - mass discard + Contamination lock but lost other two due to some mistakes and two denial spells against EoD I mentioned. On the other side Trading Post does very little in every game I draw it so it'll be first candidate to replace. Seeing card spoiled for BFZ I don't see much viable options yet:
- Ruinous Path - sorcery speed makes it worse than Hero's Downfall and I don't really need any manland to be killed by my own mass removal later
- Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - exile two is powerfull but a cost of 10 is too much and while I can reanimate him this time it's not ETB effect to abuse. It's more suited for Azusa and such.
- Defiant Bloodlord - not in this deck
- Oblivion Sower - can work if I exile someone's graveyard full of Bx fetches but it's very convoluted way to use it. I'll pass.
- Hedron Archive -almost forgot about it. Can go in easily but I still wonder if as Thran Dynamo's replacement or companion.
I'm very exited about rumored black enchantment though.Well I surely don't cast it when I'm winning or when I have dominant table position. Sheoldred isn't the fastest deck in my meta (one of the slowest ones in fact considering group of "hardcore" players I mostly play with) so usually someone else takes the lead and has to be put down. EoD is great for killing things like Stranglehold, mana doublers or other non-creature threats. The trick is to choose a permanent which hurts only/mostly Sheoldred or one with lesser boardstate impact (like a big mana rock) and leave those more oppressive ones for other opponents' choices. This way they usually won't choose my stuff as some other things has to be taken care of first. Politics plays a big role here but Eye never backfires in healthy environment if played at the right moment. It also doesn't target which can be relevant sometimes.
Changes (Mar 2015):
Karn Liberated -> Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - most important update after Fate Reforget hit
Phyrexian Obliterator -> Mindslaver - card became more popular in our meta and it fits deck's strategy anyway
Geth's Verdict -> Hero's Downfall - targeted removal became more important in my meta (Sphinx, Prophet etc)
Shriekmav -> Toxic Deluge - another major update as I finally acquired this card
Arena -> Swamp - not needed without Obliterator
Marsh Flats -> Swamp - thinning a deck is not that important
Changes (Apr 2015):
Zoetic Cavern -> Petrified Field - more protection for Coffers
Sign in Blood -> Vampiric Tutor - finally bought it
Rings of Brighthearth -> Eye of Doom - decided to test this funny card and it works well
Increasing Ambition -> Sidisi, Undead Visier - perfect Sheoldred's minion
Changes (Jun 2015):
Erebos, God of the Dead -> Trading Post - costed me too much life so decided to test this multipurpose artifact in his place
Grave Titan -> Massacre Wurm - meta became full of small mana creatures so it seems like a perfect fit against them
Yea but RiP hurts its owner too while Leyline works only for opponents and I have yet to see competitive deck not using its own graveyard even a little bit. It's a valid hate card though, I'll add it.
The problem is Exsanguinate is ONLY a finisher. I doesn't kill or destroy, discard cards or block, it only drains life. Is empty when drawn early and casting it for X less then 20 is a waste. I'd better run Maga or Profane Command in that slot but they didn't make a cut either.
This one's interesting. I did run it in my Traximundar flashback control and it may fit here too. Zombies ETB tapped but without haste they wouldn't attack the same turn anyway. Now I only have to think about what to cut to make a room.
After a lot of games I got a feeling a deck is little slow, not in a sense of ramp but killing speed. There are times I have control over a table (Contamination or mass discard) but cannot kill fast enough till opps finally manage to recover. One game I had over 30 mana and tutored for 3 cards with Ambition but couldn't do a finishing move (graveyards were emptied so no Rise). Other time I had a Contamination lock and could attack with Solemn and Clique only. Sure I play without infinite low-card-count combos but I should be able to finish games faster. My opponents complain when I go into tutor mode and cannot decide what to pull out to win or put myself into winning position. I usually win anyway but after a long run. I miss Sundering Titan - it was a beater at least. Only Grave Titan, tutor-Demon, Koko and Shelly can beat face hard enough.
What fat do you thing would fit here? I'm looking for something with both body and skills. I think about adding Obliterator with Arena I listed in Phyrexian flavored decklist (second post) to up my fatty count but that may not be enough. Some demon maybe?
Shriekmav is two-mana spell usually which means half the cost of Necrataal. The other thing is neither of them kill black/artifact creatures and that's sometimes a problem in my meta so it's not the priority search target. I have Snuff Out in that slot already.
I play Thespian's Stage in that place and honestly I rarely have anything to copy. If I have Coffers out (and keep them out for enough time) I'm already winning and Deserted Temple serves as Coffers#2 anyway. The problem with Vesuva is it gives me two uncomfortable choices - keep it in hand till I get Coffers out or play it as a tapped Swamp when I simply need lands to build. Stage is better option here.
Looking at forums I'm kind of suprised that Shelly isn't getting much love - there are mostly Chainers, Geths and Xiahous around here while she is clearly much more powerful.