While you are right in how triggers would work in terms of ordering (APNAP), that isn't relevant in this case.
Kalitas's ability is actually a replacement effect and not a trigger. It says "would something happen? No. This will happen instead." This kind of effect doesn't use the stack and instead just happens in place of what it is replacing. So Kalitas exiles the Greenwarden of Murasa, full stop. (And on a related note, "dies" is defined as moving from the battlefield to graveyard, so Greenwarden doesn't even have a trigger since it never technically "dies" in game terms)
what kind of list did you end up with? That idea seems interesting
It looks something like this. There's a lot of weirdness, but early testing has been okay so far. I'm still trying to work out the best balance on the SB based on how much can realistically come in or out, and it's possible that it just needs to run one copy of Pick the Brain.
Weebo, did you see the sweet Oracle Opposition list that top 8'd at BOM Strasbourg? It didn't lose a match until the quarters. (Tournament Report Here.)
Key points:
The Harmless kill is a big part of why you want to play this deck, but the harmless offering itself is a painful blank if you're not killing someone with it right then and there. I came to prefer having Angelic Purge as the more reliable way to dispose of Pacts, and using one Offering and 2 Petition to find it as the way to combo kill.
The deck naturally wants to load up on Oaths as a way to impact the board while guarding against Dromoka's Command. Oath of Liliana is quite powerful and well-suited to this. The incidental blockers (and sometimes attackers) it creates are also very relevant. Note that the oaths also are a respectable sac option for Angelic Purge, and that two Oath of Liliana + Starfield of Nyx is straight up The Abyss
I think we're at the point that Deadguy Ale and this have converged to the point where there is no longer a distinction. Accordingly, I'm consolidating discussion into the other thread.
We need your input: 2. Primers are an everlasting problem. They are a lot of work to create and can fall out of date fairly easily, but a well curated primer is a pillar around which a community can grow. How can we make it easiest and attractive for those of you considering writing a primer for a deck in which you're knowledgeable? 3. The Ban List thread has been mentioned by a number of users as something that they avoid. A lot of the discussion seems to recycle in there and it's easily the number one area for mod interventions in our sub. Is this something that is valuable to the subforum? What would be the impact if we no longer provided any venue for that discussion? This would mean axing the Ban List thread without opening the rest of the sub for ban list-related discussion. 4. What else can we do to make this forum better or more engaging for users?
Re: Objective 2 - There are a lot of decks that really aren't "competitive" in this meta. Elves for instance is a terrible and failing deck choice recently, I won't go into that because I don't want to begin a debate about banning top or terminus, etc. But as someone else mentioned mtgthesource does a good job at organizing consistent top decks compared to decks that show their face once in a while. This could be a good place to at least get a few ideas. Maybe organize it similar to the Modern Primer where you have Tier 1, 2, developing competitive, etc.
The Tier 1, 2, developing distinction was what I mentioned above as being harder to break down for Legacy. I also was never much of a fan for the Source's split on "Decks to Beat" -- like, yeah, Miracles is a lock for such a list, but it felt random as to many of the other decks that featured there (as an example, I seem to remember Burn being there within the last year or two).
One thing that has been floated in side conversations on this subject would be to wipe our subforum breakdown within Established, have Established by limited to the number of threads that fit on one forum page (Teia & I would curate this selection). I'm not excited by it, but it seemed worth mentioning.
On a complete aside: I disagree that elves is a "failing choice" right now, and even a crappy miracles match-up does not make a deck suddenly unplayable or uncompetitive. (A more extreme analogy from another format might be Ruel & Chan's PT T8 with Owling Mine in Type2, where they literally could not beat one of the top decks -- Gruul aggro)
Re: Input #2 - Maybe if you created a template for what is needed to create a primer, it would be easier to give people something as a starting point and allow the users to make edits from there to customize it for the primer they are creating. It may help to find people whom might be interested in creating Primers for existing/new decks.
I can do this.
Re: Input #3 - Ban list discussions are easy to avoid because it is a topic that is most toxic among magic players. No one ever thinks that their deck deserves to have a key card banned and some just want their pet cards back and will defend their point to the death. If you remove it entirely, you will have much of this discussion happening in deck primers/threads rather than in one controlled environment. Although if you want to clean up and tidy up the banned list discussion, WeaponX idea is actually a really good one. It gives a much more controlled environment for people to discuss the banning of specific cards and helps keep the thoughts and responses more precise and organized so that actual useful discussions can be had rather than a free-for-all about any and every card that "should" be banned/unbanned.
While I'm not as hardset as my previous comments indicated on this, I'm still pretty against this. One thing I will do though is talk with the EDH mods -- they recently implemented a similar such subforum and it seems a good place to look for analogous feedback.
Re: Input #4 - The search engine is really poor at times. There have been several times that I have tried to go back to search things from over a year ago and just couldn't find them so I had to resort to clicking page by page. I don't know much about programming, but I do know that the search function should find something when I type in the word Tibalt as it is not a commonly used card and I know I have talked about it in a specific thread.
This is outside our personal scope, but this is specific enough that I can flag it for Feyd to bug our devs over.
Hey all, I'm starting a mass re-shuffle of threads between competitive and developing. All moves will include redirects of a week to make sure nothing gets lost.
Kalitas's ability is actually a replacement effect and not a trigger. It says "would something happen? No. This will happen instead." This kind of effect doesn't use the stack and instead just happens in place of what it is replacing. So Kalitas exiles the Greenwarden of Murasa, full stop. (And on a related note, "dies" is defined as moving from the battlefield to graveyard, so Greenwarden doesn't even have a trigger since it never technically "dies" in game terms)
EDIT: 'nathed
1 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ruinous Path
1 Read the Bones
4 Angelic Purge
2 Radiant Flames
3 Languish
1 Duress
1 Harmless Offering
2 Dark Petition
1 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Oath of Chandra
4 Oath of Liliana
4 Demonic Pact
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Shambling Vent
2 Needle Spires
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Fiery Impulse
1 Virulent Plague
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Descend upon the Sinful
1 Infinite Obliteration
1 Linvala, the Preserver
2 Blessed Alliance
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Shardless Agent
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Opposition
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Gaea's Cradle
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Dismember
1 Scavening Ooze
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Spellskite
3 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
Upside, we'll mostly be doing terrible trix shenanigans with
Illusions of GrandeurDemonic Pact andDonateHarmless Offering.1 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ruinous Path
1 Read the Bones
4 Angelic Purge
2 Radiant Flames
3 Languish
1 Duress
1 Harmless Offering
2 Dark Petition
1 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Oath of Chandra
4 Oath of Liliana
4 Demonic Pact
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Shambling Vent
2 Needle Spires
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Fiery Impulse
1 Virulent Plague
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Descend upon the Sinful
1 Infinite Obliteration
1 Linvala, the Preserver
2 Blessed Alliance
Key points:
The Harmless kill is a big part of why you want to play this deck, but the harmless offering itself is a painful blank if you're not killing someone with it right then and there. I came to prefer having Angelic Purge as the more reliable way to dispose of Pacts, and using one Offering and 2 Petition to find it as the way to combo kill.
The deck naturally wants to load up on Oaths as a way to impact the board while guarding against Dromoka's Command. Oath of Liliana is quite powerful and well-suited to this. The incidental blockers (and sometimes attackers) it creates are also very relevant. Note that the oaths also are a respectable sac option for Angelic Purge, and that two Oath of Liliana + Starfield of Nyx is straight up The Abyss
Vote: Iso
On a related note: You should come post your current list in the Aluren thread
Vote: Tomsloger
Vote: Iso
One thing that has been floated in side conversations on this subject would be to wipe our subforum breakdown within Established, have Established by limited to the number of threads that fit on one forum page (Teia & I would curate this selection). I'm not excited by it, but it seemed worth mentioning.
On a complete aside: I disagree that elves is a "failing choice" right now, and even a crappy miracles match-up does not make a deck suddenly unplayable or uncompetitive. (A more extreme analogy from another format might be Ruel & Chan's PT T8 with Owling Mine in Type2, where they literally could not beat one of the top decks -- Gruul aggro)
I can do this.
While I'm not as hardset as my previous comments indicated on this, I'm still pretty against this. One thing I will do though is talk with the EDH mods -- they recently implemented a similar such subforum and it seems a good place to look for analogous feedback.
This is outside our personal scope, but this is specific enough that I can flag it for Feyd to bug our devs over.
Could you be mine?
/in