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  • posted a message on [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
    Quote from iamthib »
    Getting into the deck so I have kind of a newbie question but I'll ask it.
    Agains Show and Tell decks (basically anything that plays reshuffle effects like Emrakul) : the path to go is Blue Sun I get it but can I do the following :

    - cast a million draw spells during their turn
    - wish for brain freeze
    - cast brain freeze an mill their deck + emrakul shuffle trigger on the stack
    - wish for blue sun
    - cast blue sun for 1 so thei can't draw and proceed to lose

    I'm asking it because I'm having issues generating enough mana to cast a blue sun for enough to make them draw their deck.

    Is it possible or the does Emrakul's reshuffle happen before all the brain freeze copies resolve?

    Thanks !

    It doesn't quite work the way you want. Because each brain freeze copy resolves separately, there is the opportunity for triggered abilities and casting spells in between each of them resolving. As soon as one brain freeze flips emrakul, the emrakul trigger is put on the stack to resolve or be responded to.

    Now, with that in mind, Emrakul is still not the end of the world, it just makes our lives a little harder. In general, Blue Sun's Zenith is not going to be effective/reliable for killing Sneak Show because we don't normally generate the same obscene amounts of mana as Spiral Tide. Instead, we need to combo a bit harder than normal. When you go for the kill, you're going to want a lethal storm count, brain freeze, cunning wish, and any of Snapcaster mage, Cunning wish, or Remand.

    First, aim your brain freeze at the opponent and have them start resolving one brain freeze at a time (this is technically the way it's always supposed to be done, but most of the time you can shortcut it verses other decks because nobody has any effects that matter from the milling). I recommend using a die to count down each storm copy resolving. When one of the freezes hits emrakul, you're going to have them pause. At this point, you need to make a judgment call. If they had an anomalous draw, you may have them low enough in their deck to shortcut by wishing for USZ and making them draw the amount left in the deck. If not, you should wish for Surgical Extraction and exile all of their emrakuls. At this point, you can either:
    • Wish again, this time for ravenous trap to invalidate the shuffle. Freecast ravenous trap and then let the stack resolve normally.
    • Let the shuffle occur, then remand your brain freeze and recast it.
    • Let the shuffle occur and the stack resolve down normally, then Snapcaster your brain freeze.

    With very weird draws, you can also just remand and recast your brain freeze in response to each emrakul trigger and then kill them with all their emrakuls in their yard with triggers trapped on the stack (this does involve eventually wishing for USZ though).

    So it's definitely a bit more work to kill sneak show, but you should be able to do it even without generating the ~50 mana for a straight USZ kill.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
    Quote from feline_o1 »
    I don't know if it helps or not, but part of the reason I went from Remand to Snapcaster is because it made getting the second High Tide resolved a lot faster. Getting the first 2 High Tides to resolve made things a lot easier afterward.

    I think that the second High Tide is very useful if you're going into full engine mode and is crucial if going off on low lands. That being said, I've liked remand for its versatility in navigating the stack and for its ability in the early game to really rob tempo from decks now that the format seems to so often revolve around tapping out for 2CMC threats. The side benefit of being brutally punishing for anyone trying to resolve something expensive is huge (because we'd rather them attempt it twice). Countering a flashbacked spell like Cabal Therapy or Past in Flames for sweet value is sorta relevant, but rather fringe.

    Lastly, while snapcaster does share the ability to cheat stormcount with it, I have preferred remand in this function due to it being easier to re-storm over something like an emrakul trigger.

    All that aside, I think it's worth pointing out that you're running only a single snapcaster more than me despite running 0 Remand to my 3, so I'm curious if you're still cold on Remand if you aren't comparing it directly to snapcaster?
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [[Official]] What [deck] should I play/buy/get into thread
    Quote from jmlima »
    Your playstyle is the big thing to consider!

    Yeah, that is a big part of what prompted the question. I'm aware that the elves would probably the best bet for raw power, but testing it, gave me a slight headache will all the possible options for mana generation. Probably something one gets used to.

    If I'm totally honest with myself, the one from the list that would probably best fit my play style would be Dragon Stompy, but I'm concerned that when compared to something like elves it's just not up there with it.

    Did you perhaps consider Imperial Painter? It plays much of the same package as Dragon Stompy, but it comes with built-in extra blue hate and a combo kill that also can steal free wins on its own. Additionally, despite having a lot of finer nuances, they don't tend to overwhelm you when you're trying to pick up the deck like Elves' play can.

    Enchantress from your list can be good and the stronger replenish lists box people in in a rather unfair way (calling back similarities to dragon stompy), but the deck is like elves in that there's a ton of triggers and mana math, so if Elves isn't you're thing, I'd also stay away from Enchantress. I will also mention that while Enchantress is very strong in my opinion, it is extremely unforgiving of even the most subtle of sequencing misplays. It's only appropriate as a first deck in the format if you really love that kind of pressure and find it engaging (I happen to be that way, so I actually did enter the format with it, but it was probably close to a year and a half before I was what I would consider competent with the deck).
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on Khans of Tarkir Duplicate Draft Signups - We Start ASAP!
    ooh! definitely in on this. The last one you ran was quite the extraordinary experience Smile
    Posted in: Limited (Sealed, Draft)
  • posted a message on [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
    Quote from Millerd33 »
    I am very interested in this. Going to my first SCG even in a few weeks and will be packing this. What are some of the tips and trick of the current meta I should be ready for?

    The biggest thing I would say to do is to play this against real opponents as much as is humanly possible. So much of this deck's power and play are wholly based upon the interaction with the opponent, that I do not think you'll experience worthwhile returns after more than ~3 fishbowled hands.

    Now, the big thing to remember with this deck is that you always have the opportunity for a response. If they play something you can't deal with, killing them with it on the stack is a totally respectable "counter". But it extends past that. Think about what happens if they Flusterstorm you. Your play may just be "Okay, let the storm trigger resolve. Now I'm going to continue to combo on the stack above the flusterstorm until I find a remand to save my spell." The stack with this deck can EASILY get to be naturally 10 spells deep, and learning how to navigate those complex stack wars and sculpt how they play out is a huge part of learning to play the deck successfully (and very often, your "failed combo" verses slower opponents will just have been a way to empty their hand of interaction while you held back a Meditate or Dig Through Time, but this only works if you see that line before even initiating the exchange and play in such a way that they fully expend themselves).

    Now, verses decks with Emrakul, you need to ask yourself this: Are they a deck with just one Emrakul, or do they have more? If they only play one or two Emrakul, it is very feasible to just re-combo off above the shuffle trigger. This means you may remand your brain freeze and recast it (or if you don't run remand, counter your real brain freeze, then snapcaster it back) so that you can mill their deck above the shuffle trigger and then USZ for X=1 to kill them. Another option if they just have one Emrakul is to wish for Ravenous Trap in response and make that trigger irrelevant.

    If, on the other hand, they are packing the full playset of Emrakul (or at least more than one or two), you have two options. The first is to hard-combo with Blue Sun's Zenith for their entire deck. I think that this is more difficult with Solidarity than people give it credit for -- It's certainly possible, but it's not reliably an option with normal game progression since we do not go recursive like Spiral Tide. The more reliable option in my opinion is this: Cunning Wish in response to the Emrakul trigger to find Surgical Extraction. Surgical out their Emrakul, then let the shuffle trigger resolve, Remand your Brain Freeze (if you do not have sufficient copies still on the stack to mill them), and then kill them. I have found this to be far more reliable, since it is easier for us to draw our deck than to generate 50+ surplus mana to fuel a naturally lethal Zenith. We more likely are just going to be working with 20-30 extra mana at the end.

    Oh, and I suppose it's worth noting that the third option is to wish for Zenith and Zenith them for how many cards are left in the library with the shuffle trigger on the stack. Depending on when you hit the Emrakul, it can be a fairly manageable number like 15-20 cards.

    One other piece of advice I have for you is to play like you are playing your entire deck, full 75. You will need to think ahead to "What in my deck is the answer, and how many do I have". If you figure that you're going to need double cunning wish to kill them, you might want to be VERY judicious with the third copy, since you are committing the other two to NEEDING to resolve (meaning they would be poor counterbait). Similarly, casting a Dig Through Time may result in some weird decisions. In a recent game, I determined that my kill was just a single brain freeze (no USZ needed) but that my opponent was likely stocked on countermagic and was waiting for the wish to counter. I chose to ignore all the ways to combo deeper in my DTT's 7 and instead grabbed double Remand because I had lethal storm and enough mana to cast wish with double remand to save it from countermagic and I knew I had no snapcasters or other wishes left in my deck, so this wish had to be it. The flipside of this "play the full deck" mentality is that you should be very cognizant on what you are bottoming from DTT and Impulse. You very easily can know the bottom 15-20 cards of your deck, so if you're getting low, you should already be able to know what the next Impulse or Brainstorm is going to find, and this make the difference in a lot of potential lines of play.

    EDIT: One final interaction that you should be aware of is that DTT and Impulse both are very reliable ways to "clear your brainstorm" in mid-combo. It's okay that you're effectively seeing less cards off that given impulse or DTT, because chances are that the two lands (or whatever else the chaff was) being exchanged for spells was likely worth it.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
    Quote from nwrobinson »
    Man this seems like a really fun version of high tide. All I can think of now is brainfreeze in response to tendrils

    well that alone doesnt do it because they have to draw a card

    You're both right. If another chain-based combo deck (by this I mean Ritual-based combo, Spiral Tide, and even certain Glimpse of Nature-fueled hands of Elves) tries to go off after Solidarity has some lands in play, it is typically very easy for Solidarity to ride their storm count and make only a couple plays to complete the kill. If they are in the process of killing you that turn however and you don't catch them with a draw spell/effect on the stack, then you need to also get them to draw a card. The way most current lists do this is by wishing for a Blue Sun's Zenith to aim at the opponent for X=1 after the Brain Freeze, but historically lists sometimes killed with something as innocuous as Words of Wisdom
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Deck] High Tide (Spiral Tide)
    Quote from Red XIII »
    I remember reading here that Mind Over Matter is usually not necessary and haven't been in lists for a while now, but i've been thinking that with the introduction of the two cards that was been discussed not long ago, Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time, which CharonsObol had very valuable oppinion about it that I agree with, get me wondering if Delve and Mind Over Matter could be used together in order to discard, mainly, unplayed lands from your hand, probably after a Time Spiral, and removing them from the game with Delve, possibly reducing significantly the chances of lands in general to appear on your hand again and maybe causing a "fizzle". However I get that the list is already too tight, as before mentioned by CharonsObol, so my second question would be that if it could be used, perharps, on a candleless version increasing its resilience after a Time Spiral in case that the other version really lacks slots.

    I've been reading this thread for a while now and after seen Feline, among others, playing with it I felt like trying it out and now I intend to keep on with it. I decided to create a list to start with (a budget one) so them I could play with it while I haven't managed to finishing the list with the "ideal cards". I went to a Legacy event on my city on sunday (small one) with my list and was able to won it ^^.

    I hope my questions wasn't off topic and that it helps

    Mind over Matter is a powerful card, but in my experience, it's really only at its best when you already have a Candelabra in play (and an active High Tide). This means that it is a 6 mana spell that does very little unless you're already combo-ing (and that it is likely not a great option for candel-less builds). In my experience, Spiral Tide would much prefer just wishing for capsize to produce actual infinite mana under this circumstance rather than run a maindeck card with such a narrow window of utility. Given this, I do not believe Dig Through Time pushes Mind Over Matter back into being an advisable card to run.
    As an aside: I will note that Mind Over Matter was featured in the early Extended High Tide lists, but it was borderline too clunky at the time, and I do not feel that time has made Legacy any friendlier to the card.

    Dig Through Time on the other hand is a card that has been extraordinary in Solidarity (the other High Tide deck that dominated much of the recent discussion in this thread), but has generally been spurned in Spiral Tide due to the inherent recursive nature of Time Spiral (making you generally unwilling to RFG spells from your yard to delve). That being said, it has been featured in at least one high-placing list. Personally, I do not feel Dig Through Time is appropriate for Spiral Tide, but the card has enough raw power that I understand why people are trying to fit it in.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Deck] High Tide (Spiral Tide)
    Hey all, I have created a separate thread for Solidarity here. Try and direct all discussion on Reset-based High Tide to that thread and as this thread is directed at Time Spiral-based High Tide discussion.

    (I understand that there wasn't a clear alternate location until now as the previous Solidarity threads look to have found their way to the archive)
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)
    Disclaimer: This post is still in progress. If you have anything to add or would like to help me flesh out any section, let me know!

    Also known as Reset High Tide

    Solidarity is a variant of High Tide with a long and rich history in Legacy. It was one of the early dominant decks in Legacy following the transition away from the joint ban list with Type 1 (it was actually initially developed for Type 1.5 prior to the split when it was jokingly known as "Strictly worse than Dragon"). Solidarity in its initial form was primarily designed by David Gearhart, morphing from what must be termed a "casual" budget deck into one of the most feared decks of the newly formulated Legacy format. For more on the early developement of the deck, I recommend reading Finn's interview with Gearhart, published on this very site back in 2007.

    Solidarity in its initial dominance looked something like the list at right, but it was far from a one-hit wonder (Search SCG's decklist database here for a broad selection of top placing examples of the deck) While Solidarity was powerful, it had a number of weaknesses. First and foremost, it was weak to early pressure and was poorly suited to the acceleration of the speed of the format represented by printings like Tarmogoyf. Second, it was recognized to be quite difficult to pilot. As the format continued to develop with new printings, Solidarity fell from popularity as the difficulty of the deck was no longer justified by its strength relative to the field. For years, the deck rested in obscurity with only the occasional return to the spotlight (For example, this Top4 in 2012). With the printing of Dig Through Time, however, Solidarity has returned to the public consciousness.

    Strategic Overview
    Solidarity is a storm-based combo deck built around High Tide and the rather obscure Reset. Due to the constraints imposed by Reset, the deck has a unique restriction in construction -- every non-land needs to be castable at instant speed. For the early turns, Solidarity just uses its cantrips to string together land drops and sculpt its hand. After significant sculpting or at the threat of death from the opponent, Solidarity will attempt to combo off on the opponent's turn, using card draw and untap effects (in conjunction with High Tide) to generate storm to fuel a lethal Brain Freeze. From there, the kill can either be something like Blue Sun's Zenith for X=1 or the opponent's own draw spell (assuming you went off in response to a draw spell such as Brainstorm, Ponder, or Treasure Cruise) or draw step (assuming you can afford to let them finish out their turn).

    One way to consider Solidarity is that it is a control deck which always has the last answer of "kill you" in response to a threat it otherwise cannot handle. Whether that threat is a lock piece such as Counterbalance or a game-ending play such as a lethal Lightning Bolt, Solidarity can respond and use that moment to end the game. This gives a strategic superiority to Solidarity in the face of interaction because it means that Solidarity is always representing a virtual counterspell of "Kill you".

    Solidarity is very different from Spiral Tide and other other High Tide variants. Those decks lean heavily on the power of cards like Merchant Scroll, Candelabra of Tawnos, and Time Spiral while in contrast Solidarity's unique constraints force it to forsake these for the power of Reset and the maneuverability and flexibility of being instant speed. Solidarity is the one combo deck that does not ask "Will I live through another of turn my opponent's turn?", but rather "Will I die right now?".

    Modern Revival
    Solidarity's recent revival has been entirely on the back of this card. Because it does not run Time Spiral, Solidarity is free to fully indulge in its graveyard as a resource (Unlike the more prevalent Spiral Tide). This means that Solidarity gets to harness Dig Through Time's powerful delve ability (and to a lesser extent, Snapcaster Mage's method of recursion). Dig Through Time is arguably the most powerful card selection spell printed since Brainstorm and it dramatically increases both the speed and consistency of the modern iterations of Solidarity in comparison to the versions of the deck seen in its heyday.

    So what does the Solidarity of today look like? There is not a "stock" list for the reborn Solidarity, but they are already beginning to converge upon certain features. I have included my own list alongside two well-publicized lists in the spoiler below.

    A Note on Lands
    Solidarity desperately needs to make land drops in the early game, but a higher land count negatively impacts the deck's consistency when actually trying to execute the combo. Different lists address this problem in different ways. My list featured above trimmed lands with the understanding that early cantrips would need to be used aggressively to find string together land drops. Longmore and Lossett both went the opposite direction and erred towards more lands by going with 19 (compare this to my 17). Despite such wildly differing land totals, the lists are each designed with a healthy respect for the importance of making land-drops, and different lists vary with as many as 20 lands or as few as 17.

    Each list also features a large number of fetchlands. This is for three reasons:
    • They provide shuffle effects for Brainstorm.
    • They stock the graveyard to fuel delve for Dig Through Time at minimal cost.
    • As you use fetchlands in multiples, the thinning effect can actually become quite significant due to this deck's plan to aggressively draw through its deck. To demonstrate, if my list featured above makes its first 4 land drops with fetchlands, and then attempts to go off on Turn 4, Meditate has a better than 1/3 chance to draw all spells due to only 9 land remaining in the deck. This effect is only magnified as the game continues and additional lands are fetched out of the deck.

    Card Selections
    Coming soon!

    Previous Threads and Other Links
    The original MTGS Primer (circa 2005) and its discussion thread
    Solidarity Primer and Thread on The Source
    The original Solidarity thread on the Source (circa 2005)
    GP New Jersey Deck Tech with Feline Longmore
    Posted in: Combo
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