I am currently running two bastion in my magistrate's scepter list. It offers a better alternative to paying 4 mana to charge a scepter. 4 mana to charge everything. I don't think it is that great in other versions of the deck though.
Stumbled upon this deck and have to say I'm a huge fan; an interaction that I noticed and haven't seen anyone talk about is Clockspinning and Paradox Engine. With a Cornucopia in play with 4 counters it generates infinite addition or removal of counters, and by extension infinite mana. Being able to manipulate The Antiquities War seems like one sweet option as well as being able to remove all the loalty from opposing walkers, or get yours up to ultimate range before a single activation. And even without the buyback I feel as though it's playable as a ritual of sorts for counters.
Thoughts?
@DeliciousRocks clockspinning is an interesting card. Without the buyback, it isn't super relevant though. The lists are usually really tight and cards that don't do much outside of the combo aren't used that much. Maybe as a 1-2 of for a backup combo enabler. It's similar to batterskull in that you can just play it over and over but requires less mana investment. Using it for 1 to ramp up though seems lackluster. Without the buyback on it, it is worse than just having a surge node almost always. The card plays a similar role to Tezzeret's Gambit. Gambit is more useful in a variety of situations. Antiquities War is a card we are playing with. I think it is good sb tech vs stony silence more than maindeckable. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is just stronger and more versatile in a similar slot.
Hey gang, long time lurker first time poster in this thread. I wanted to take a minute to talk about our newest addition to this archtype, Magistrate's Scepter and the ways we can abuse it. I wanted to share a list I've been tinkering with and goldfishing lately:
I have elected to cut the Paradox Engine/Book/Bell combo for the new infinite turns combo that is Magistrate's Scepter, Mimic Vat, and Coretapper. Typically 3 card combos are sketchy, but I think this one is different on the basis that this deck is literally built to dig for these specific pieces and does so better than any other "dig for your combo" deck that I've ever seen. Between Glint-Nest Crane, Ancient Stirrings, Board the Weatherlight, and Inventors' Fair we're setup for the best possible chance of getting there. In my limited testing I was able to collect all 3 pieces by turn 4 almost every single time. I forewent Whir of Invention due to the UUU CMC. I just couldn't get it to work without warping the deck a little too much. With all of that said, the most important question now is how are we closing out games??? I decided to get a little cute in this department and went with a one of Darksteel Reactor in the Main along with 3 Walking Ballistas. Once the combo is online we can pretty much just demonstrate a loop, go thru it 20 times once Reactor is in play and we win. Of course if we are under 20 cards in our library thats not really going to work which is where Ballistas comes in. On the off chance that we can't get there with either Reactor or Ballista there is a single copy of Laboratory Maniac in the SB. I wanted to go with these sort of odd ball wincons because I believe they require fairly niche hate from our opponent in order to upset our game plan and they're fun!
Some of you may be wondering why I've gone this direction and that reason is simple: Its something different than what Dice Factory historically does. We also don't run the risk of decking quite as much as Paradox/Book/Bell builds. My biggest gripe about Paradox/Book/Bells combo is the reliance of our GY. I feel like adding even slight reliance on our GY to our strategy is a vulnerability that just isn't worth it. Other than that, I guess I dont have much of a reason. Dice Factory is one of those decks that really gives its pilot a lot of design space and I really like that. Going forward I would like to get some real testing in to see where my weaknesses are that goldfishing just can't show you.
Any constructive criticism or discussion about this rendition would be great!
@Ta305
The list looks pretty solid. I am goldfishing something similar right now waiting for scepter to be released before I start playing it. I'm not running crane or Ballista, and no mimic vat or darksteel reactor currently. I am running 3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, and 2 Jace, the Mind Scupltor. Along with 3 Wildfire. I'm not all in on the scepter plan and only run two, but I have gone infinite as early as turn 3 in my testing regardless.
https://discord.gg/2ZJXJ6v
I created a discord for the archetype if anyone is interested in more of a direct means of communication for brewing or anything.
edit: Here's the youtube video of him playing the deck. He was sent the first "paradox combo" list in the primer, which I don't think is as well positioned in the meta but does showcase it a little bit.
I've been spending some time looking at all of the new cards. I've gotten very busy with work and other pursuits to be testing as much as I was but a couple of cards form DOM have caught my eye. I'll give my thoughts on the ones I think might be worth looking in to.
Karn, Scion of Urza Is one of the nicer cards in the set. He seems to provide some utility and card advantage. The +1 is a punisher effect which could slow us down quite a bit. If the opponent can exile the combo card we need, we won't get it until our next turn when we can use his -1. There are some litte interactions when this could be better or worse than other similar walkers. Karn competes with the other two high power 4cmc planeswalkers; Jace, The Mind Sculptor and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. The biggest thing Karn has going for him is the colorless aspect. We can find him with Ancient Stirrings which is a big help. The card really feels like it only has 2 abilities. The second ability does nothing at all without use of the first. Our deck wants to draw the right cards, simply drawing the worse of two cards won't always be enough. Tezzeret helps you to draw the right cards. Jace helps you to not draw the wrong card, which is sometimes better than drawing the wrong card with the option to get the needed card back next turn. He can also help us dig really deep for that card we so need. The third ability actually seems decently useful. Jace's protection is nothing like this simply buying time by unsummoning. Tezzeret has somewhat better and more synergistic protection being able to make a 5/5 from a single artifact or in gaining enough life to stay out of the red. Karn's summon ability adds to our board instead of investing more into an artifact we have already. Both Tezzeret and Jace have ultimates that can outright win the game sometimes. Karn simply doesn't. He isn't as powerful as the others for the cost but he is easier to cast. I think he should be supplemental or as a one of.
Artificer's Assistant is probably the most promising card from the whole set. I'm not even sure how it would fit in to most of the lists that I run, but I am thinking more of a mono-blue deck or blue/green with some other things thrown in. Being able to scry once or even multiple times a turn could be really big in helping to find combo pieces or whatever we need much more efficiently.
The Antiquities War is a really interesting card. If we can cast it turn 2-4, I think it could easily win 2 turns later. If I understand sagas right, you use it once when it comes out, then sacrifice it after the next two uses in draw steps. So we could use the card to get two Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas +1 ability and then the wide swarm of 5/5 artifacts if the combo fails. It seems like it could be very powerful if untouched and would help out if ramp is lost or the combo fails.
Thran Temporal Gateway is like a mini planar portal. I have never liked the card in this deck and thought it was overpriced. This could help sometimes with mana fixing when playing our 4cmc planeswalkers or playing artifacts at instant speed. I don't think the card is that powerful and probably shouldn't be included.
Traxos, Scourge of Kroog is another interesting card. It could be useful in a more aggro/ramp build. I might try including them in the eldrazi build. A 7/7 trampler for 4 mana isn't the worst thing I've tried in the deck. It's an artifact, more or less has vigilance when we use it.
Weatherlight could be useful in an aggro build. I might add one to the eldrazi build as the power is easy to come by and sometimes I find myself not wanting to attack in to larger creatures on the ground.
I wonder if you could fit Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas into a combo version of the deck. Seems like it might at least be worth looking at. He digs, protects, and stalls. Three things we really need usually and for the same price as most of the payoff cards we have anyways.
Yea I think various cards are better suited to various lists. You don't need rainbow lands in a two color deck really. Just as you wouldn't use Whir of Invention in a three color deck. It is only playable in toolbox style combo build. We have a lot of options and the deck should be very synergistic in how it plays and what it does. Something that does well in one version of the deck might just be the complete wrong choice for another version of the same deck.
Aside from the main "core" of the deck. I consider the core to be around 20 cards. Everything else is up in the air really and depends on what you are trying to do.
4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Surge Node
4 Coretapper
4 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Stirrings
I played the Eldrazi variant for a few games recently and had similar results to the BUG combo list I have been playing as well. I think a build in that direction might have gotten some new tools recently also.
I took a break from mtg and have started playing the deck again here and there on mtgo. Wow am I bad now! Back to the days only being able to fit 2 out of 3 games in per match before I run out of time.
@Ratwohl
I agree with most of your thoughts on various card choices.
Voltaic Key is a card that I love because it is just so dang useful. I only think it is "win more" if you are in 1-2 colors and need the slots for something else or want to pack some more interaction.
The most obvious use for Voltaic Key is untapping your mana rocks. Not only to build mana but also to filter colors from Mox Opal or Astral Cornucopia.
Another thing I like to do is add extra counters to Otherworld Atlas, or extra activations out of a Surge Node. It's a 1 Artifact that can be used to help get a Mox Opal online early. It helps to get Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas out early with only one colored mana rock and is relevant for his abilities.
The most explosive lines of play you can make with the deck come with the help of a voltaic key. I'm not sure it is "win-more" so much as it is "win-faster". In a format like modern, giving the opponent that extra turn can mean your defeat.
The other card I think you don't see the power of is Whir of Invention compared to Fabricate. Fabricate is nice, and has an easy casting cost. That is the only thing that is better about it than Whir. Whir is instant speed, puts it onto the battlefield, and has improvise. Improvise doesn't help much unless your ramp is disrupted, but it can mean the difference between casting the card and not sometimes.
"Glimmervoid makes going into multi-color really easy. But it comes with the cost of not being able to say "Serum Visions, go." on turn 1. It just can force your opening to play really awkwardly."
This isn't the deck to be playing one thing turn 1 and ending your turn most of the time. Glimmervoid can be awkward a times if you are unlucky but with ~30 artifacts or more, it's an issue less than you would think. Not to mention when you use an Ancient Stirrings turn 1, there are usually 12 artifacts in the deck that cost 0 you could potentially hit.
"Spire of Industry has the same issue. Not having colored mana can be a real crux, e.g. an opening seven of Darksteel Citadel, Spire of Industry, Glimmervoid, Paradox Engine, Coretapper, Glint-Nest Crane, Ancient Stirrings becomes a mulligan, when otherwise it would have been a reasonable keep. That you are basically forced to play four Darksteel Citadel makes this only worse."
See in this instance, I would play the glimmervoid, use stirrings and hope to find a rock or an opal. It seems like a pretty sweet hand, all you need is an atlas and you have the Crane to help find it.
I think I have only ever had 1 game where I started the combo and fizzled. But I don't try to combo out until I have 3 counters on the Atlas. 6 lands in a row is pretty unlucky in a deck that only runs 17 typically. And you figure you had 1-3 lands in play already. I'd say it's very unlucky. The thing I don't like about ballista is that we often don't have enough creatures and generally want to blank enemy removal game 1. It can be great and versatile, a monster in some matches, but I don't think its for me. At least not in any of my current lists save maybe the Eldrazi one. Haven't tested it in there, it'd probably be quite good.
I do like that list you put together. I also just realized you got interested in the deck from the reddit thread way back when. Glad you found the deck. I need to make some videos with my Sultai list.
We have all moved to discord. If you are interested in the deck, check it out here!
1 Academy Ruins
2 Inventors' Fair
3 Darksteel Citadel
3 Aether Hub
4 Glimmervoid
4 Spire of Industry
1 Forest
Artifacts - 24
3 Everflowing Chalice
4 Astral Cornucopia
3 Mox Opal
4 Surge Node
4 Coretapper
2 Voltaic Key
3 Magistrate's Scepter
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Board the Weatherlight
2 Tezzeret's Gambit
3 Wildfire
Planeswalker - 6
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Nature's Claim
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Lux Cannon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Spellskite
1 Defense Grid
1 Damping Sphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Welding Jar
There's a few of us who stream it but don't record much
The list looks pretty solid. I am goldfishing something similar right now waiting for scepter to be released before I start playing it. I'm not running crane or Ballista, and no mimic vat or darksteel reactor currently. I am running 3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, and 2 Jace, the Mind Scupltor. Along with 3 Wildfire. I'm not all in on the scepter plan and only run two, but I have gone infinite as early as turn 3 in my testing regardless.
Here's the current list I am playtesting.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/random-test-deck-7/
Use this one.
https://discord.gg/2ZJXJ6v
https://discord.gg/2ZJXJ6v
I created a discord for the archetype if anyone is interested in more of a direct means of communication for brewing or anything.
Tune in here!
https://www.twitch.tv/jeffhoogland
edit: Here's the youtube video of him playing the deck. He was sent the first "paradox combo" list in the primer, which I don't think is as well positioned in the meta but does showcase it a little bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSWsXrhmKho
Karn, Scion of Urza Is one of the nicer cards in the set. He seems to provide some utility and card advantage. The +1 is a punisher effect which could slow us down quite a bit. If the opponent can exile the combo card we need, we won't get it until our next turn when we can use his -1. There are some litte interactions when this could be better or worse than other similar walkers. Karn competes with the other two high power 4cmc planeswalkers; Jace, The Mind Sculptor and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. The biggest thing Karn has going for him is the colorless aspect. We can find him with Ancient Stirrings which is a big help. The card really feels like it only has 2 abilities. The second ability does nothing at all without use of the first. Our deck wants to draw the right cards, simply drawing the worse of two cards won't always be enough. Tezzeret helps you to draw the right cards. Jace helps you to not draw the wrong card, which is sometimes better than drawing the wrong card with the option to get the needed card back next turn. He can also help us dig really deep for that card we so need. The third ability actually seems decently useful. Jace's protection is nothing like this simply buying time by unsummoning. Tezzeret has somewhat better and more synergistic protection being able to make a 5/5 from a single artifact or in gaining enough life to stay out of the red. Karn's summon ability adds to our board instead of investing more into an artifact we have already. Both Tezzeret and Jace have ultimates that can outright win the game sometimes. Karn simply doesn't. He isn't as powerful as the others for the cost but he is easier to cast. I think he should be supplemental or as a one of.
Artificer's Assistant is probably the most promising card from the whole set. I'm not even sure how it would fit in to most of the lists that I run, but I am thinking more of a mono-blue deck or blue/green with some other things thrown in. Being able to scry once or even multiple times a turn could be really big in helping to find combo pieces or whatever we need much more efficiently.
The Antiquities War is a really interesting card. If we can cast it turn 2-4, I think it could easily win 2 turns later. If I understand sagas right, you use it once when it comes out, then sacrifice it after the next two uses in draw steps. So we could use the card to get two Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas +1 ability and then the wide swarm of 5/5 artifacts if the combo fails. It seems like it could be very powerful if untouched and would help out if ramp is lost or the combo fails.
Thran Temporal Gateway is like a mini planar portal. I have never liked the card in this deck and thought it was overpriced. This could help sometimes with mana fixing when playing our 4cmc planeswalkers or playing artifacts at instant speed. I don't think the card is that powerful and probably shouldn't be included.
Traxos, Scourge of Kroog is another interesting card. It could be useful in a more aggro/ramp build. I might try including them in the eldrazi build. A 7/7 trampler for 4 mana isn't the worst thing I've tried in the deck. It's an artifact, more or less has vigilance when we use it.
Weatherlight could be useful in an aggro build. I might add one to the eldrazi build as the power is easy to come by and sometimes I find myself not wanting to attack in to larger creatures on the ground.
Aside from the main "core" of the deck. I consider the core to be around 20 cards. Everything else is up in the air really and depends on what you are trying to do.
4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Surge Node
4 Coretapper
4 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Stirrings
I played the Eldrazi variant for a few games recently and had similar results to the BUG combo list I have been playing as well. I think a build in that direction might have gotten some new tools recently also.
I took a break from mtg and have started playing the deck again here and there on mtgo. Wow am I bad now! Back to the days only being able to fit 2 out of 3 games in per match before I run out of time.
@Ratwohl
I agree with most of your thoughts on various card choices.
Voltaic Key is a card that I love because it is just so dang useful. I only think it is "win more" if you are in 1-2 colors and need the slots for something else or want to pack some more interaction.
The most obvious use for Voltaic Key is untapping your mana rocks. Not only to build mana but also to filter colors from Mox Opal or Astral Cornucopia.
Another thing I like to do is add extra counters to Otherworld Atlas, or extra activations out of a Surge Node. It's a 1 Artifact that can be used to help get a Mox Opal online early. It helps to get Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas out early with only one colored mana rock and is relevant for his abilities.
The most explosive lines of play you can make with the deck come with the help of a voltaic key. I'm not sure it is "win-more" so much as it is "win-faster". In a format like modern, giving the opponent that extra turn can mean your defeat.
The other card I think you don't see the power of is Whir of Invention compared to Fabricate. Fabricate is nice, and has an easy casting cost. That is the only thing that is better about it than Whir. Whir is instant speed, puts it onto the battlefield, and has improvise. Improvise doesn't help much unless your ramp is disrupted, but it can mean the difference between casting the card and not sometimes.
"Glimmervoid makes going into multi-color really easy. But it comes with the cost of not being able to say "Serum Visions, go." on turn 1. It just can force your opening to play really awkwardly."
This isn't the deck to be playing one thing turn 1 and ending your turn most of the time. Glimmervoid can be awkward a times if you are unlucky but with ~30 artifacts or more, it's an issue less than you would think. Not to mention when you use an Ancient Stirrings turn 1, there are usually 12 artifacts in the deck that cost 0 you could potentially hit.
"Spire of Industry has the same issue. Not having colored mana can be a real crux, e.g. an opening seven of Darksteel Citadel, Spire of Industry, Glimmervoid, Paradox Engine, Coretapper, Glint-Nest Crane, Ancient Stirrings becomes a mulligan, when otherwise it would have been a reasonable keep. That you are basically forced to play four Darksteel Citadel makes this only worse."
See in this instance, I would play the glimmervoid, use stirrings and hope to find a rock or an opal. It seems like a pretty sweet hand, all you need is an atlas and you have the Crane to help find it.
I do like that list you put together. I also just realized you got interested in the deck from the reddit thread way back when. Glad you found the deck. I need to make some videos with my Sultai list.