For a control deck, specificially Grixis Control, I was looking for some more win conditions. So far I have Keranos and JTMS. I'm curious about Lone Revenant and Master of Waves. Are either of these viable? Are there any other good win conditions I missed?
The deck should always manage itself competitively against the entire meta (aggro, control and ramp). That is the point of playtesting.
The problem with your deck is the Lack of card filters (like Preordain) and card selection (with Jace TMS)
This is not much of a problem if you run a tap-out version of the deck. The fact that your deck is permission-based is what makes this problematic.
In a permission deck, you should be running minimal finishers (say 2) and the deck will be mostly counterspells, card draws/filters/selection and removals.
With your deck, you can may be survive against control as you can just draw-go and mostly nothing relevant happens in the few turns.
But against ramp and especially aggro, you cannot hope to counter everything. They will drop 2 memnites and a quest in the first turn and just beat you to death with memnites itself, while you have a bunch of counterspells in your hand.
The fact that you can hope to draw something by Ingenuity in turn 5 is hopeless as you will get killed before that.
This is where jtms and preordain come into the picture. Preordain lets you filter upto 3 cards for one mana itself!! This lets you control and make better your draw as per your need.
Ingenuity is also a great card and is definitely a 4 of in permission. My point is that control decks are really tight lists and the fact that you want to control itself makes you very dependent on your card draws.
Ingenuity + Preordain provide that. But cutting any one in permission is not viable and advisable. Also, Jace TMS is definitely a 4 or atleast 3 in permission. Ingenuity/Preordain are good but not reusable. Jace once resolved and protected, lets you look at 3 cards each turn. If you dont like those 3..Guess what. If you have a fetch land/Hawk, you can just shuffle away that to try for a BETTER DRAW
The Lack of Jace and Preordain is what makes your deck not competitive imo.
If you do not have Jace TMS, no problem. If you want to try competitively, you can substitute Jace Beleren and try for a Tap-Out build instead. You can also try the new sphinx from MBS as it couples great with Jace Beleren. You can also try Venser + Sea Gate Oracle which also gives great card filter.
Can you post your list here? I will try it out also and see how it goes.
No, I play 15 counters and haven't had much of a problem with ramp or even WW quest... I'll post because you want to try the list, that's why.
Do you really think anything at all will be proven if we were to play on MTGO and you were to beat me? Or I were to beat you? It would prove nothing. I am the one with logic; you are the one continuing to grab at straws. Post something relevant or stop posting. When cards aren't in the top eight, they need to be proven to be good through theorycrafting and well constructed arguments, neither of which have you done or provided. A deck means nothing until it proves itself with results. A deck doing well in the tournament scene is what makes the deck good. It really comes down to the fact that you can't afford JtMS, which isn't a big deal. I don't care if you can't afford them, but don't pretend like you're running some optimal build with your fifty dollar deck. To do well in serious standard events, you have to dish out money. If you don't want to, stay out of the competitive forums.
EDIT: How can you even say that you're not attacking me? You've done nothing but. You've made no arguments whatsoever. You've somehow diluted yourself into thinking that your deck is golden, and you won't listen to anyone else. I've made point after point that you've ignored. Hell, you usually only address a couple of sentences from any particular post, and not even the important ones at that.
Double edit because I'm tired of this discussion: Here are some of the points I've made that you've just ignored. Address them or stop posting. Or you could go back and try to compile all of the points you've made and realize you haven't made any.
Well, you could test the deck instead of write it off, in order to test it you must either play it or play against it... So... Yeah, playing me would prove something one way or the other... Silly little girl...
What if it's turn six and it's your turn. You need a DOJ or you're going to die, and it's three cards down. Now, Ingenuity will get you the card, but Preordain will get you the card and let you cast it. Ingenuity is not a four of in UW builds.
Well, I could either Ingenuity on turn 5 and get there much like you would and still be able to cast DoJ turn 6, just like you. And Ingenuity is a 4 of in my build and I also play 4 DoJ, i'm MORE likely to get a DoJ than you...
It's synergistic with Jace, and helps you dig as deep (three cards, scry two to the bottom) as Ingenuity does for four mana less. I don't know how you can play this deck and not think that Preordain is absolutely amazing. There's just no card that helps you search for answers so well for one blue mana.
I don't play Jace, so you're point sucks because it REQUIRES two card, mine is only one... More consistent...
It's not going to matter how deep it digs because
a) it doesn't dig that deep until turn five, and doesn't let you use those cards until turn six and
b) two in your opening hand would be an almost auto-mull.
a) I've hardly ever needed to dig before turn 5 anyway, that's the beauty of permission.
b) Not true, against control it's such a good card. And I've kept two before and done well, HOWEVER, it would likely be a mull for me, but having two Preordain's in your opening hand would greatly slow you down too, don't forget.
It doesn't matter what build it is if it's UW control. Preordain will always be better than Ingenuity as long as you can die in the first few turns from Valakut.
I don't know about you, but Valakut isn't going to kill a permission deck that fast lol, I play counterspells that really slow them down, so I don't need to dig early.
How is that for counterpoints? I've already made them, you just choose not to listen/read mine. So, chump, when you are man enough to test, let me know. Until then, keep net-decking and staying behind the curve.
Once again, you're attacking me, not my argument. Us playing has nothing to do with what we're talking about. You're clutching for straws because you have no proof and no solid basis for what you've been saying. Now you're trying to challenge me because you think if you beat me your point will be proven, when, in all actuality, nothing will be proven. My play skill has nothing to do with the matter at hand, and that's what confuses a lot of people. You seem to think if you play fifteen games against your friend's Valakut deck and win all of them, then you have a good match-up against Valakut when there are several other outcomes such as
a) your friend sucks
b) his deck sucks
or
c) both
Post something relevant or stop posting. Us playing a game has nothing to do with whether or not Preordain is good, and has nothing to do with whether or not JtMS would be good in your deck.
So, what you're saying is playing a deck doesn't matter, it's either top 8 at a big event or not? You never test a deck? Playing a deck against another one DOES prove something... I'm not attacking you either, I did attack your argument/logic (or lack of). Look, playing/testing gives results, if you don't believe so ask your precious pros if they test
Of course you're flaming me when you have no legitimate argument. That's called ad hominem: when you attack the arguer instead of the argument, much like you've done. You've addressed so few of my arguments it's ridiculous. I am following what you've been saying; it's not hard, you've only been saying one thing the whole time: that Ingenuity is better than Preordain (and now you're saying it's better than Jace, which is just ridiculous, those cards aren't even comparable) while providing no proof other than "it's just my build man, the environment changed, i've done really well at fnm," which really makes you seem like a troll, so I'm done replying. Enjoy your subpar Jace-less deck and keep convincing yourself JtMS isn't good in your deck just because you can't afford him.
So when push comes to shove you DON'T want to play against me lol
I think Sphinx of Jwar Isle is underplayed in the current meta. It was popular with the addition of Path, Terminate, and Maelstrom Pulse in pre-Scars Standard, but with the addition of Go For The Throat, the toolbox available to U/B for Creature Removal is more potent, making the deck more competitive. By blanking this removal in a near-creatureless build, we can gain an advantage through permission control and put them on a 4-turn clock with the Sphinx. The Sideboard is equipped to handle RDW and Valakut, although the RDW matchup may need additional tools.
I like the direction you're taking this deck, but I don't like Gideon, he always seems like a subpar play to me, especially when he's pretty much the only target for your removal
Okay, it doesn't mean anything that you can beat a deck that has four Jaces. It also doesn't mean that your deck wouldn't be so much better with them in there. Are you really going to say that your deck wouldn't be better with 4 JtMS? Guess what: most people at fnm aren't good, and fnm results aren't worth anything. Anyone can play there, and all kinds of people play. FNM is for fun, not for collecting relevant data. I've already made my point; you haven't made any. Enjoy playing your subpar deck and never making it anywhere close to a real rating or anywhere close to a competitive environment. As long as you're on such a tight budget, your deck will never optimal. Go play on MWS with Caw Go with 4 JTMS, 4 Squadron Hawk, and 4x Preordain. You'll be amazed how you don't have to instant mull a hand that has two Ingenuities against any sort of aggro or any deck that can win around turn five. Or, if that's too hard, just play a few games and pretend that your Ingenuities are JtMS, then you'll realize that Brainstorming every turn, being able to unsummon creatures, locking people out of the game through scrying, or exiling their whole deck is so much better than a one shot draw three effect. I mean, how can you even judge Preordain when you can't even afford one of the cards that makes it so ridiculous?
ps Oh no, you're going to stop replying?! Whatever will I do?! You're the one who is taking every opportunity to flame me, saying that I'm an idiot with an infantile mind. I hope you come back to post here when Preordain is still played as a four of for a long time to come, while Ingenuity will be a max 2 of, but will probably just sit in the sideboard for control matchups.
Do you have MTGO? And my flame is becaus you aren't following what I'm saying, you are making too many assumptions that are wrong. Also, I can honestly say that my deck works better without JTMS, seriously. Ingenuity has been so good for me. If you have MTGO, I'm building this deck on there and I'll play it vs you and show you...
Umm, okay? All I said was that Preordain was played eternally while Ingenuity is not. He was the one saying that Ingenuity was strictly better than Preordain; if it was, then they would play it eternally instead of Preordain, which they don't. I'm not trying to imply that any standard legal card that is played in eternal formats is going to be good in standard.
I said Ingeuity was better after turn 5... And I clarified what I meant by strictly better. You seem to get angry over this, I'm sorry I've caused you so much trouble... I'm done trying to argue with someone who's infantile brain cannot grasp the concept that the environment changes...
I've beaten SEVERAL decks that play Jace... 4-0 vs UB, for starters. But I only play small events, so it's a worthless deck even if I've done well with. Where do you think decks start anyways? And it's not like there are any big standard events I can go to right now.... If you've seen my list, sleeve it up and tell me what's wrong... I bet if you're honest, you'll see it's a great deck... But whatever, I guess I'm one of the few people who know that formats change and what was good yesterday may not be good tomorrow...
Also, I NEVER SAID PREORDAIN WAS BAD!!!! Learn to read you fool.
EDIT: and bye, unless you calm down... You gotta relax dude, I can sense the tension
That's bad logic, a card is not good BECAUSE it was in a top 8 list (or several). And notice none of you semed to know that I said it depends on the build... Whatever, I'm talking to a child here, good luck with your UW decks that are becoming obsolete. I'll stick with my permission deck that plays horrible cards, after all I'm not a pro so I don't know anything.
What top 8s are you talking about? How many UW decks are there in top 8? What forum am I in? Did I not say it depends in the build of the deck? This forum is littered with feeble minded people... Truth be told, you are they type of people that would freak out if someone important said "the sky is fallin!" only good cards make it to top 8? Any card in a top 8 deck is definitely better than every card that wasn't in a top8 deck?
PS these aren't retoricle questions, I want you to answer them IF you can.
For white, I think DoJ is better than black zenith, I love Luminarch Ascension, and Elspeth is great! Black has doom blad and go for the throat, I like those but they aren't necessary IMO
Have you read the card? How can card quality not be worth one blue mana at sorcery speed? It's synergistic with Jace, and helps you dig as deep (three cards, scry two to the bottom) as Ingenuity does for four mana less. I don't know how you can play this deck and not think that Preordain is absolutely amazing. There's just no card that helps you search for answers so well for one blue mana. The problem is that so many people don't know how to play it. It's usually not a turn one play because you don't know what you need turn one; it's a card that helps you dig for the answers you need for one mana as the game goes on. It's one of the only cards where you can start the turn in a losing position and dig deep enough to find an answer. No other card can do that, and that's why it's so amazing.
I just don't get how you can cast Preordain and be consistently disappointed unless you
a) kept an awful hand when you should have mulled
b) have bad cards in your deck
yes, I have read the card. Have you? Ingenuity digs 3 deep too!! Only you get ALL 3 cards. If you don't play Preordain turn 1 it slows you down a turn because it's sorcery... Ingenuity let's me wait. EOT is very valuable blieve it or not. Why scry when I can just draw the cards? I'm not saying Preordain is bad, I'm just saying I like Ingenuty better... I like how you assume I'm playing bad cards or that I don't know when to mulligan... I'm not a bad player by any means, I just don't like Preordain as much as everyone else it seems.
You don't know what strictly better is. Cards that don't do almost the exact same thing can't be compared like that. Strictly better means that the card is better in every scenario, which isn't true. What if it's turn six and it's your turn. You need a DOJ or you're going to die, and it's three cards down. Now, Ingenuity will get you the card, but Preordain will get you the card and let you cast it. Ingenuity is not a four of in UW builds. It won't be until UW gets better removal. Since you're so pro and so sure of yourself, show me ONE even where someone top eighted playing UW (not UB) control with four Ingenuity. Now, for an even harder challenge, show me any UW build that is running more Ingenuity than Preordain that top eighted. You won't be able to because it's NOT GOOD.
right, my bad, when I said strictly better I meant it is better in the long run... Yes, Preordain could still be better, just like Preordain can be bad on turn 1...
Still, I'll give you that a UW Permission hasn't done that well yet, but maybe when I take it to a big event (if one comes up), I'll do well. So far I'm 8-2 (should be 9-1) with this deck and the losses came from me mis-boarding due to me coming out of retirement and the other one from and Eldrazi Green deck in which we went to turn 20+ and I couldn't get Tec. Edge... From what I've played, Preordain was bad.
Dude above me got it right... Here, let me do this for you...
Turn 1: Preorain is better than Jace's Ingenuity... Done...
Turn 2: Preordain or Hawk? Or leave Mana Leak Mana Open?
Turn 3: Preordain or Baby Jace? can't do both, but you could Preordain + Hawk/ Mana Leak...
Turn 4: Preordain? Safe choice, but can't cast Day of Judgment or Jace the Mind Sculptor.
Turn 5+: Jace's Ingenuity is strictly better...
What does that mean? Preordai. Slows your deck down... I'm nit saying it's bad, but for me Ingenuity provides card advatange AND doesn't slow my deck down.
No, I play 15 counters and haven't had much of a problem with ramp or even WW quest... I'll post because you want to try the list, that's why.
3 Condemn
2 Elspeth Tirel
3 Luminarch Ascension
4 Mana Leak
2 Deprive
2 Negate
3 Cancel
3 Stoic Rebuttal
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Elixir of Immortality
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Tectonic Edge
3 Halimar Depths
1 Seachrome Coast
6 Island
4 Plains
3 Oust
3 Flashfreeze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Condemn
Pre-MBS by the way...
Post-MBS
-1 Into the Roil
-1 Jace's Ingenuity
-1 Halimar Depths
+1 White Sun's Zenith
+1 Blue Sun's Zenith
+1 Seachrome Coast
You were already told to stop posting budget builds in the competitive forum. Jace's Ingenuity doesn't equal Jace 2.0. It never will.
Trolling infraction.
Well, you could test the deck instead of write it off, in order to test it you must either play it or play against it... So... Yeah, playing me would prove something one way or the other... Silly little girl...
What if it's turn six and it's your turn. You need a DOJ or you're going to die, and it's three cards down. Now, Ingenuity will get you the card, but Preordain will get you the card and let you cast it. Ingenuity is not a four of in UW builds.
Well, I could either Ingenuity on turn 5 and get there much like you would and still be able to cast DoJ turn 6, just like you. And Ingenuity is a 4 of in my build and I also play 4 DoJ, i'm MORE likely to get a DoJ than you...
It's synergistic with Jace, and helps you dig as deep (three cards, scry two to the bottom) as Ingenuity does for four mana less. I don't know how you can play this deck and not think that Preordain is absolutely amazing. There's just no card that helps you search for answers so well for one blue mana.
I don't play Jace, so you're point sucks because it REQUIRES two card, mine is only one... More consistent...
It's not going to matter how deep it digs because
a) it doesn't dig that deep until turn five, and doesn't let you use those cards until turn six and
b) two in your opening hand would be an almost auto-mull.
a) I've hardly ever needed to dig before turn 5 anyway, that's the beauty of permission.
b) Not true, against control it's such a good card. And I've kept two before and done well, HOWEVER, it would likely be a mull for me, but having two Preordain's in your opening hand would greatly slow you down too, don't forget.
It doesn't matter what build it is if it's UW control. Preordain will always be better than Ingenuity as long as you can die in the first few turns from Valakut.
I don't know about you, but Valakut isn't going to kill a permission deck that fast lol, I play counterspells that really slow them down, so I don't need to dig early.
How is that for counterpoints? I've already made them, you just choose not to listen/read mine. So, chump, when you are man enough to test, let me know. Until then, keep net-decking and staying behind the curve.
So, what you're saying is playing a deck doesn't matter, it's either top 8 at a big event or not? You never test a deck? Playing a deck against another one DOES prove something... I'm not attacking you either, I did attack your argument/logic (or lack of). Look, playing/testing gives results, if you don't believe so ask your precious pros if they test
So when push comes to shove you DON'T want to play against me lol
I like the direction you're taking this deck, but I don't like Gideon, he always seems like a subpar play to me, especially when he's pretty much the only target for your removal
Do you have MTGO? And my flame is becaus you aren't following what I'm saying, you are making too many assumptions that are wrong. Also, I can honestly say that my deck works better without JTMS, seriously. Ingenuity has been so good for me. If you have MTGO, I'm building this deck on there and I'll play it vs you and show you...
Warning for budget discussion.
I said Ingeuity was better after turn 5... And I clarified what I meant by strictly better. You seem to get angry over this, I'm sorry I've caused you so much trouble... I'm done trying to argue with someone who's infantile brain cannot grasp the concept that the environment changes...
I've beaten SEVERAL decks that play Jace... 4-0 vs UB, for starters. But I only play small events, so it's a worthless deck even if I've done well with. Where do you think decks start anyways? And it's not like there are any big standard events I can go to right now.... If you've seen my list, sleeve it up and tell me what's wrong... I bet if you're honest, you'll see it's a great deck... But whatever, I guess I'm one of the few people who know that formats change and what was good yesterday may not be good tomorrow...
Also, I NEVER SAID PREORDAIN WAS BAD!!!! Learn to read you fool.
EDIT: and bye, unless you calm down... You gotta relax dude, I can sense the tension
This is you:
(before top 8 at big event)
Prordain sucks, it hasn't been in a top 8 deck.
(after top 8 event)
It's in a top 8 deck now, it's now a good card...
That's bad logic, a card is not good BECAUSE it was in a top 8 list (or several). And notice none of you semed to know that I said it depends on the build... Whatever, I'm talking to a child here, good luck with your UW decks that are becoming obsolete. I'll stick with my permission deck that plays horrible cards, after all I'm not a pro so I don't know anything.
PS these aren't retoricle questions, I want you to answer them IF you can.
yes, I have read the card. Have you? Ingenuity digs 3 deep too!! Only you get ALL 3 cards. If you don't play Preordain turn 1 it slows you down a turn because it's sorcery... Ingenuity let's me wait. EOT is very valuable blieve it or not. Why scry when I can just draw the cards? I'm not saying Preordain is bad, I'm just saying I like Ingenuty better... I like how you assume I'm playing bad cards or that I don't know when to mulligan... I'm not a bad player by any means, I just don't like Preordain as much as everyone else it seems.
P.S. I played 4 JI, now 3 JI and 1 USZ
right, my bad, when I said strictly better I meant it is better in the long run... Yes, Preordain could still be better, just like Preordain can be bad on turn 1...
Still, I'll give you that a UW Permission hasn't done that well yet, but maybe when I take it to a big event (if one comes up), I'll do well. So far I'm 8-2 (should be 9-1) with this deck and the losses came from me mis-boarding due to me coming out of retirement and the other one from and Eldrazi Green deck in which we went to turn 20+ and I couldn't get Tec. Edge... From what I've played, Preordain was bad.
Turn 1: Preorain is better than Jace's Ingenuity... Done...
Turn 2: Preordain or Hawk? Or leave Mana Leak Mana Open?
Turn 3: Preordain or Baby Jace? can't do both, but you could Preordain + Hawk/ Mana Leak...
Turn 4: Preordain? Safe choice, but can't cast Day of Judgment or Jace the Mind Sculptor.
Turn 5+: Jace's Ingenuity is strictly better...
What does that mean? Preordai. Slows your deck down... I'm nit saying it's bad, but for me Ingenuity provides card advatange AND doesn't slow my deck down.