It's ok, a 3 power flyer with pseudo thoughtsieze isn't too bad, but at the 3 cmc slot I'm not sold. If we are on the play, it's a bit better, but usually our opponant keeps mana leak open to counter an early Jace B. On the draw, they'd either have esper charm/counter mana open, or have laid Jace B.
I would much rather just run thoughtsieze/duress on the play personally. Makes sure I hit their hand before they get a chance to flash me a 'leak or ambitions before I hit their jace/titan/counter
I'd like to preface my response by saying that I am in agreement with Pointicus about one thing: You are using circular logic to justify a green splash, specifically Realms Uncharted.
Circular Logic Example: You're splashing a color to fix your colors so you can cast a "tutor" that finds lands that you cut so you could make room for the color that you splashed so you can cast a "tutor" that finds lands that you cut so you could make room for the color that you splashed so you can cast a "tutor" that finds lands that you cut so you could make room for the color that you splashed so you.
Etc.
I would also like to say that I do not think Realms is necessarily terrible, just that it does not fit into this particular deck, and that even more value can be extracted out of it through other card choices.
Firstly, Sun Titan gets lands back. My opponent throwing out a Tectonic Edge just means i'll get them later.
At this point, both you and your opponent are likely in Stage III of the game. (This is a safe assumption considering you have cast and resolved a Sun Titan; if this isn't so, then you are likely winning anyway, as you are certainly in Stage III, but your opponent is not yet.) If this is so, then Tectonic Edge does not matter -- or at least matters less than it would have in Stages I or II.
If you played four Tectonic Edge instead of playing Green, your Tectonic Edge would be much more reliable (as far as the Battlefield is concerned) and more effective. And you are still just as likely to soft-lock an opponent out of Stage III via Sun Titan.
Secondly, with the exception of a few unbelievably powerful lands, I don't think standard has ever had access to BETTER lands. Not only do we have 6 manlands in the set, we have a wasteland effect, a maze, 10 ETB effect lands, and a set of fetches. THis card has never been more timely.
Aside: I would give almost anything to have 10 Shock Lands/Bounce Lands back, or Charge Lands, or Urza Tron, or Academy Ruins -- we're in an artifact block! But I digress. Certainly, the power level of lands in Standard right now is through-the-roof awesome.
Before I give counterpoints to your argument, I would like to first suggest that because literally every deck is playing at least some of these "unbelievably powerful lands", Realms Uncharted is already at a significant disadvantage. Getting a few more awesome lands matters less when your opponent has the same number of awesome lands that he can use each turn. What I mean by this is that even if you have four creature-lands in play to your opponent's two, you can each likely only activate one -- not to mention, your opponent probably has more Tec Edges in his deck than you do.
What is the Realms package that gives you the best value, using all of these fancy lands? Tec Edge, Maze, Colonnade, Wildwood? You'll likely be handed Maze and Wildwood a majority of the time, as those are the worst of the group by a significant margin. Maybe you'll get handed Colonnade over Wildwood some of the time if the opponent is aggressive. With no way to abuse Realms Uncharted outside of Sun Titan, its most relevant indirect effect seems to be "Search your library for Tectonic Edge, hope your opponent is stupid, and then put it in your graveyard anyway." Now, that is a note-worthy ability, but simply playing four Tectonic Edge accomplishes the same thing, as I have stated above.
Now, as for the synergy part, having lands in hand is amazing synergy with Emeria Angel because it keeps my opponents from making me sac creatures AND it keeps blockers on the field so Venser can go ultimate. By vensering fetch lands, I can give Emeria Angel 3 little friends in a single turn.
Cultivate has more synergy with Emeria Angel than Realms Uncharted. It gives you two lands to feed Landfall, but both lands will be entering the battlefield that turn. Venser increases your Landfall count by the same amount no matter what your 2G spell is.
Finally, I might run more fetches, but I really don't own any right now. I wouldn't run more than 3 more, though. I thought about Sylvan Ranger over BoP, but I like the speed the BoP provides and the color-fixing, which has been more than relevant with so much double green, white, and blue.
If you can acquire fetch lands, I would say go for it.
Sylvan Ranger and BOP are entirely different cards, much in the sense that Cultivate and Realms are different. One is ramp, one "draws" lands. There is a significant difference in these two abilities. This is ignoring their relative mana cost -- the difference between one and two is is more than simple arithmetic would lead you to believe. This makes them difficult, if not pointless, to compare. Outside of a 1-of in a Fauna Shaman deck maybe, nobody should really be playing Sylvan Ranger, but this isn't to say that I think BOP is the optimal ramp card for your deck.
BOP provides some speed, yes, but what are you speeding into? I would argue that Explore or Cultivate do the same job, but more efficiently.
Aside: Explore would be pretty awesome in this deck. It synergizes amazingly with Realms Uncharted. Not that I really think Realms is necessary or even good, but adding Explore would help make it playable. Explore also ramps in the same manner as BOP, but provides extra Landfall to Emeria in Stage III or later in Stage II that you're trying to top-deck out of.
Color-fixing would not be necessary if you cut BOP and Realms, though it appears I will be unable to sway your opinion on this front.
Thanks for the insight, though A lot of people aren't fans of the Realms Uncharted, but I wouldn't be advocating it so heavily if I wasn't having outstanding results.
Good Results are not necessarily The Best Results.
I appreciate your attempt at innovation and desire to discover new, break-out cards, as I am constantly testing new ideas and strategies -- it's a long-forgotten practice in this hive mind world. The ability to differentiate between Actually Good and Good As In Not Terrible, Maybe Even Okay, But Mostly Just Different From The Hive seems to be the next skill you need to develop on your way to becoming a successful rogue deck-builder.
---
Circular Logic Example: You're splashing a color to fix your colors so you can cast a "tutor" that finds lands that you cut so you could make room for the color that you splashed so you can cast a "tutor" that finds lands that you cut so you could make room for the color that you splashed so you can cast a "tutor" that finds lands that you cut so you could make room for the color that you splashed so you.
(Edit: I see that I've been Sarnathed by Mdilthey. I'll refrain from adding even more to this post or double-posting just to respond. Instead, I'll respond to any future response.)
I double-checked the rulings, but when you bounce Domestication (enchant creature), the original owner gets his creature back. Its like paying 2 mana more for Journey to Nowhere.
1. I enchant Some Dude with Domestication.
2. You play a Sweet Dude.
3. I blink Domestication with Venser, when it returns, I steal your Sweet Dude.
4. I get to block with your Sweet Dude.
5. Once I untap, I get to attack with your Sweet Dude, and then blink Domestication again so that the enchantment is not sacrificed, after which I just get the Sweet Dude back. I can even take Shrouded Dudes via Venser's blink ability.
It's very different from Journey to Nowhere.
That said, I do not think it is good -- merely a thought for the MTGS community to mull over.
I have tried most of these choices out at one point or another in various decks. I even tried to make Realms Uncharted playable for a bit.
The problem is that drawing real cards immediately (now with Oracle and Preordain) is just better than drawing lands with Realms Uncharted. If you're sticking with Realms, though, isn't Explore miles better than BOP? If your opponent isn't bolting your BOP, it's either because 1) your opponent is bad, or 2) BOP isn't as good in your deck as you think.
If opponents are letting you have Maze, then that's because it doesn't hinder them. If it is actually good against them, which is unlikely, then they just won't let you have it.
I understand Lotus Cobra is not good in this deck, but you should still run the fetch lands. They work really well with Realms Uncharted in two ways: they give you more effective duals to search with it, and help to further thin your deck, which you seem to favor over actual card selection in Blue.
The next time you test the deck, could you post some actual game-by-game analysis or commentary? I think seeing what is really happening turn-by-turn will help one of us see what the other is trying to say, and I don't mean that in a facetious "I'm-right-you're-wrong" attitude.
There is more to the Magic community than a single website ;-0
RE Your new decklist:
The maindeck splash for Green seems misguided. Cultivate is probably just better than Realms Uncharted, and Birds of Paradise is likely not the cheap accelerator that you want -- ramping from one to three isn't super important in this deck.
I've been a long-time fan of Emeria Angel, but your finisher suite of 2 Frosty, 2 Sunny, and 2 BSA seems very random.
Venser even seems a bit weak in this deck, or at least jarring. The only cards he really combos with are ones that you'd want to cast on the same turn, which is rather awkward.
Lastly, Mystifying Maze seems pretty weak.
Seeing that you have a large number of less-than-four-ofs, I'd recommend adding some card selection in the form of Preordain, Wall of Omens, or Sea Gate Oracle. Your only non-land four-ofs are Birds, Realms, and Journey.
Venser does almost literally nothing in a Machine-X deck like that. I would suggest cutting it, but then it wouldn't belong in this thread.
Has anyone tried Stoneforge Mystic in any of these Venser decks? If it was maindecked, you'd likely be changing most of your strategy, but I could see it being a possible sideboard plan, both giving SFM a double dose of usefulness and also making sure something like Sword of Body and Mind connects with the opponent. Trying out maindeck Sword of Body and Mind in a build with Sea Gate Oracle doesn't really seem too crazy in the right meta; I've even been advocating Scroll Thief over Sea Gate Oracle lately for an incredibly -- like, 80-90% incredibly -- control-heavy metagame, or for those who need a reverse-handicap in control matchups.
I would also like to point out an interaction that, as far as I can tell, has gone unnoticed by the Venser-ing community:
Unless you drafted Rise of the Eldrazi a ton, you might have to read that one. I'll wait.
. . .
With an active Venser, Domestication is effectively a four-mana Mind Control. This might not be the most relevant of shortcuts, but if you're playing a slightly more tap-out version of UW, I could easily imagine a turn three Domestication off of Everflowing Chalice being very strong. If you land a Venser next turn, you get to take any dude you want, for as long as you want.
The real question is whether the Venser community has ignored this interaction because 1) They didn't know about it or 2) It's just not good enough.
Drawing a card is more valuable than forcing life loss upon the opponent to a strategy like ours.
Additionally, making lands tap for blue instead of black is actually relevant, as Spreading Seas is a solid card against Vampires, who have very few colorless mana requirements.
You know it has Flash, right?
Circular Logic Example: You're splashing a color to fix your colors so you can cast a "tutor" that finds lands that you cut so you could make room for the color that you splashed so you can cast a "tutor" that finds lands that you cut so you could make room for the color that you splashed so you can cast a "tutor" that finds lands that you cut so you could make room for the color that you splashed so you.
Etc.
I would also like to say that I do not think Realms is necessarily terrible, just that it does not fit into this particular deck, and that even more value can be extracted out of it through other card choices.
At this point, both you and your opponent are likely in Stage III of the game. (This is a safe assumption considering you have cast and resolved a Sun Titan; if this isn't so, then you are likely winning anyway, as you are certainly in Stage III, but your opponent is not yet.) If this is so, then Tectonic Edge does not matter -- or at least matters less than it would have in Stages I or II.
If you played four Tectonic Edge instead of playing Green, your Tectonic Edge would be much more reliable (as far as the Battlefield is concerned) and more effective. And you are still just as likely to soft-lock an opponent out of Stage III via Sun Titan.
Aside: I would give almost anything to have 10 Shock Lands/Bounce Lands back, or Charge Lands, or Urza Tron, or Academy Ruins -- we're in an artifact block! But I digress. Certainly, the power level of lands in Standard right now is through-the-roof awesome.
Before I give counterpoints to your argument, I would like to first suggest that because literally every deck is playing at least some of these "unbelievably powerful lands", Realms Uncharted is already at a significant disadvantage. Getting a few more awesome lands matters less when your opponent has the same number of awesome lands that he can use each turn. What I mean by this is that even if you have four creature-lands in play to your opponent's two, you can each likely only activate one -- not to mention, your opponent probably has more Tec Edges in his deck than you do.
What is the Realms package that gives you the best value, using all of these fancy lands? Tec Edge, Maze, Colonnade, Wildwood? You'll likely be handed Maze and Wildwood a majority of the time, as those are the worst of the group by a significant margin. Maybe you'll get handed Colonnade over Wildwood some of the time if the opponent is aggressive. With no way to abuse Realms Uncharted outside of Sun Titan, its most relevant indirect effect seems to be "Search your library for Tectonic Edge, hope your opponent is stupid, and then put it in your graveyard anyway." Now, that is a note-worthy ability, but simply playing four Tectonic Edge accomplishes the same thing, as I have stated above.
Cultivate has more synergy with Emeria Angel than Realms Uncharted. It gives you two lands to feed Landfall, but both lands will be entering the battlefield that turn. Venser increases your Landfall count by the same amount no matter what your 2G spell is.
If you can acquire fetch lands, I would say go for it.
Sylvan Ranger and BOP are entirely different cards, much in the sense that Cultivate and Realms are different. One is ramp, one "draws" lands. There is a significant difference in these two abilities. This is ignoring their relative mana cost -- the difference between one and two is is more than simple arithmetic would lead you to believe. This makes them difficult, if not pointless, to compare. Outside of a 1-of in a Fauna Shaman deck maybe, nobody should really be playing Sylvan Ranger, but this isn't to say that I think BOP is the optimal ramp card for your deck.
BOP provides some speed, yes, but what are you speeding into? I would argue that Explore or Cultivate do the same job, but more efficiently.
Aside: Explore would be pretty awesome in this deck. It synergizes amazingly with Realms Uncharted. Not that I really think Realms is necessary or even good, but adding Explore would help make it playable. Explore also ramps in the same manner as BOP, but provides extra Landfall to Emeria in Stage III or later in Stage II that you're trying to top-deck out of.
Color-fixing would not be necessary if you cut BOP and Realms, though it appears I will be unable to sway your opinion on this front.
Good Results are not necessarily The Best Results.
I appreciate your attempt at innovation and desire to discover new, break-out cards, as I am constantly testing new ideas and strategies -- it's a long-forgotten practice in this hive mind world. The ability to differentiate between Actually Good and Good As In Not Terrible, Maybe Even Okay, But Mostly Just Different From The Hive seems to be the next skill you need to develop on your way to becoming a successful rogue deck-builder.
---
(Edit: I see that I've been Sarnathed by Mdilthey. I'll refrain from adding even more to this post or double-posting just to respond. Instead, I'll respond to any future response.)
1. I enchant Some Dude with Domestication.
2. You play a Sweet Dude.
3. I blink Domestication with Venser, when it returns, I steal your Sweet Dude.
4. I get to block with your Sweet Dude.
5. Once I untap, I get to attack with your Sweet Dude, and then blink Domestication again so that the enchantment is not sacrificed, after which I just get the Sweet Dude back. I can even take Shrouded Dudes via Venser's blink ability.
It's very different from Journey to Nowhere.
That said, I do not think it is good -- merely a thought for the MTGS community to mull over.
The problem is that drawing real cards immediately (now with Oracle and Preordain) is just better than drawing lands with Realms Uncharted. If you're sticking with Realms, though, isn't Explore miles better than BOP? If your opponent isn't bolting your BOP, it's either because 1) your opponent is bad, or 2) BOP isn't as good in your deck as you think.
If opponents are letting you have Maze, then that's because it doesn't hinder them. If it is actually good against them, which is unlikely, then they just won't let you have it.
I understand Lotus Cobra is not good in this deck, but you should still run the fetch lands. They work really well with Realms Uncharted in two ways: they give you more effective duals to search with it, and help to further thin your deck, which you seem to favor over actual card selection in Blue.
The next time you test the deck, could you post some actual game-by-game analysis or commentary? I think seeing what is really happening turn-by-turn will help one of us see what the other is trying to say, and I don't mean that in a facetious "I'm-right-you're-wrong" attitude.
RE Your new decklist:
The maindeck splash for Green seems misguided. Cultivate is probably just better than Realms Uncharted, and Birds of Paradise is likely not the cheap accelerator that you want -- ramping from one to three isn't super important in this deck.
I've been a long-time fan of Emeria Angel, but your finisher suite of 2 Frosty, 2 Sunny, and 2 BSA seems very random.
Venser even seems a bit weak in this deck, or at least jarring. The only cards he really combos with are ones that you'd want to cast on the same turn, which is rather awkward.
Lastly, Mystifying Maze seems pretty weak.
Seeing that you have a large number of less-than-four-ofs, I'd recommend adding some card selection in the form of Preordain, Wall of Omens, or Sea Gate Oracle. Your only non-land four-ofs are Birds, Realms, and Journey.
Has anyone tried Stoneforge Mystic in any of these Venser decks? If it was maindecked, you'd likely be changing most of your strategy, but I could see it being a possible sideboard plan, both giving SFM a double dose of usefulness and also making sure something like Sword of Body and Mind connects with the opponent. Trying out maindeck Sword of Body and Mind in a build with Sea Gate Oracle doesn't really seem too crazy in the right meta; I've even been advocating Scroll Thief over Sea Gate Oracle lately for an incredibly -- like, 80-90% incredibly -- control-heavy metagame, or for those who need a reverse-handicap in control matchups.
I would also like to point out an interaction that, as far as I can tell, has gone unnoticed by the Venser-ing community:
Unless you drafted Rise of the Eldrazi a ton, you might have to read that one. I'll wait.
. . .
With an active Venser, Domestication is effectively a four-mana Mind Control. This might not be the most relevant of shortcuts, but if you're playing a slightly more tap-out version of UW, I could easily imagine a turn three Domestication off of Everflowing Chalice being very strong. If you land a Venser next turn, you get to take any dude you want, for as long as you want.
The real question is whether the Venser community has ignored this interaction because 1) They didn't know about it or 2) It's just not good enough.
What do you think?
This format is still developing, so my snap-answer to any "Is X viable?" question is, "Go try it."
Go try it.
Additionally, making lands tap for blue instead of black is actually relevant, as Spreading Seas is a solid card against Vampires, who have very few colorless mana requirements.