they need to add goyf,wild nactl,cloudpost, and bloodbraid elf to actually achieve this. All they did was take out decks that stood a chance against what is now the big 3
Slipknot, I've liked a lot of what you've had to say about the format so far, browsing through the threads, but... ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Goyf and Nacatl are just efficient creatures that attack and block. That's it. They don't have any abilities like Dark Confidant does, and you have to build your deck around them (to a non-zero degree) just to make them playable. I'm sorry, but efficient Green creatures are not ban-worthy. That's just laughable.
This is the problem I have with banning largely inoffensive cards like Ancestral Vision: It creates a slippery slope where the requirement to ban something is decreased with each action, and before you know it, we actually will have people calling for the banning of vanilla Green creatures (with subtle drawbacks, even)!
I'm hoping that was just your snap-reaction to this, and not some calculated response.
I do think that Cloudpost decks might prove to be a real problem, however.
Right, but simply knowing archetypes / seeing how people sideboard in-game should be enough (at first). Sharing 75s after a match is completely reasonable, but I think knowing your opponent's exact 75 before the match starts in such an otherwise-unknown format really causes inbreeding.
If we really want to see how the meta might develop, we should have a mock tourney on Cockatrice that we set up here and run over the course of a week or a day or whatever.
Posting exact 75s before playing seems awk for testing (right now). The format is wide open; you're not really going to know the exact list any real opponent is playing, and knowing that can lead to really inbred results.
(Not trying to be antagonistic; this format is sweet and I'm excited to start playing it.)
I think Jitte is fine. A Stoneforge control deck needs to have a lot of creatures to make Jitte useful, and even then, Batterskull is almost always preferred anyway. (In Legacy for example, I'd rather have 2 Batterskulls or 1 Batterskull and 1 SOFI before I pack Jittes.) I think the only reason Jitte was banned is that it's easy to put it into every deck that wants it in a Team Unified Constructed tournament (which lessens the variety necessary for such an event), which the Community Cup was.
Jitte is just a card that is sweet for creature-on-creature battles, and not much more. That seems perfectly fair to me.
I agree with you that trying to ban Elf Combo is a bit silly.
After some re-consideration this is my suggested banned list:
[CARD]Hypergenesis
[/CARD][CARD]Narcomoeba
[/CARD][CARD]Arcbound Ravager
[/CARD][CARD]Sensei's Divining Top
[/CARD][CARD]Skullclamp
[/CARD][CARD]Sword of the Meek
[/CARD]
(I removed Glimpse of Nature.)
Edit: RE: Nix
If you think Nix is even close to playable, wouldn't you rather just be a Spellstutter Sprite deck like UW Faeries?
Hypergenesis: Hypergenesis should not be a deck. Narcomoeba: Dredge should not be a deck, and I think this is a better banning than Bridge from Below. Arcbound Ravager: Affinity should not be a deck. Sensei's Divining Top: Tournaments have to finish on time. Skullclamp: Duh. Sword of the Meek: Thopter/Depths should not be a deck. I think it's only necessary to ban one half of that deck's combo, as Dark Depths on its own isn't unreasonable as a combo. i think it's possible that Thopter Combo might even be "okay" just because of how disadvantaged control is to begin with when you factor in fetch lands and shock lands, but they can't both exist together or we know what'll happen. Glimpse of Nature: Elf Combo probably shouldn't be a deck, but I'm not 100% certain.
Most lists should be starting with that skeleton. From there, your disruption/protection package is customizable to what you plan on playing against, and any extra card filtering/drawing can be added. I like See Beyond personally.
Karrthus is better than every non-Bogardan Hellkite dragon in every situation where you're comboing off.
Dragonstorm (4 dragons) -- You can kill them without Karrthus, but if you've drawn a Hellkite, you still win. You can kill them if they're higher than 20 life, and you can even win if they have a Leyline of Sanctity this turn; not possible with other combinations.
Dragonstorm (3 dragons) -- Karrthus is the only way to win the turn you combo off with less than four dragons.
Karrthus can even potentially win with just a single Dragonstorm for one dragon. This is likely only possible in the mirror match against another Non-Karrthus build that only has three dragons. Corner case? Absolutely, but if this deck is good, it will matter.
Karrthus is harder to cast than Hellkite Charger, but so what? Your goal is to cast Dragonstorm, and if you happen to draw a Bogardan Hellkite or have insufficient Storm, you want to be able to still win in the most efficient manner possible.
Again: Karrthus is better than every non-Bogardan Hellkite dragon in every situation where you're comboing off.
This isn't a contest to see which Dragon wins in a heads-up fight.
Hellkite Overlord is more expensive (for hard-casting purposes) and prone to all the same removal as Karrthus, but Karrthus kills at a lower storm than Overlord.
RE: "What if you draw Karrthus?"
Then you just get four Bogardan Hellkites, as usual.
Slipknot, I've liked a lot of what you've had to say about the format so far, browsing through the threads, but... ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Goyf and Nacatl are just efficient creatures that attack and block. That's it. They don't have any abilities like Dark Confidant does, and you have to build your deck around them (to a non-zero degree) just to make them playable. I'm sorry, but efficient Green creatures are not ban-worthy. That's just laughable.
This is the problem I have with banning largely inoffensive cards like Ancestral Vision: It creates a slippery slope where the requirement to ban something is decreased with each action, and before you know it, we actually will have people calling for the banning of vanilla Green creatures (with subtle drawbacks, even)!
I'm hoping that was just your snap-reaction to this, and not some calculated response.
I do think that Cloudpost decks might prove to be a real problem, however.
*GRUNT*
If we really want to see how the meta might develop, we should have a mock tourney on Cockatrice that we set up here and run over the course of a week or a day or whatever.
(Not trying to be antagonistic; this format is sweet and I'm excited to start playing it.)
Jitte is just a card that is sweet for creature-on-creature battles, and not much more. That seems perfectly fair to me.
I agree with you that trying to ban Elf Combo is a bit silly.
[CARD]Hypergenesis
[/CARD][CARD]Narcomoeba
[/CARD][CARD]Arcbound Ravager
[/CARD][CARD]Sensei's Divining Top
[/CARD][CARD]Skullclamp
[/CARD][CARD]Sword of the Meek
[/CARD]
(I removed Glimpse of Nature.)
Edit: RE: Nix
If you think Nix is even close to playable, wouldn't you rather just be a Spellstutter Sprite deck like UW Faeries?
Hypergenesis
Narcomoeba
Arcbound Ravager
Sensei's Divining Top
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Glimpse of Nature
Hypergenesis: Hypergenesis should not be a deck.
Narcomoeba: Dredge should not be a deck, and I think this is a better banning than Bridge from Below.
Arcbound Ravager: Affinity should not be a deck.
Sensei's Divining Top: Tournaments have to finish on time.
Skullclamp: Duh.
Sword of the Meek: Thopter/Depths should not be a deck. I think it's only necessary to ban one half of that deck's combo, as Dark Depths on its own isn't unreasonable as a combo. i think it's possible that Thopter Combo might even be "okay" just because of how disadvantaged control is to begin with when you factor in fetch lands and shock lands, but they can't both exist together or we know what'll happen.
Glimpse of Nature: Elf Combo probably shouldn't be a deck, but I'm not 100% certain.
I do not think Umezawa's Jitte needs to be banned.
I do not think Chrome Mox needs to be banned.
I do not think Dark Depths needs to be banned.
4 Preordain
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Dragonstorm
4 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Karrthus
Most lists should be starting with that skeleton. From there, your disruption/protection package is customizable to what you plan on playing against, and any extra card filtering/drawing can be added. I like See Beyond personally.
Dragonstorm (4 dragons) -- You can kill them without Karrthus, but if you've drawn a Hellkite, you still win. You can kill them if they're higher than 20 life, and you can even win if they have a Leyline of Sanctity this turn; not possible with other combinations.
Dragonstorm (3 dragons) -- Karrthus is the only way to win the turn you combo off with less than four dragons.
Karrthus can even potentially win with just a single Dragonstorm for one dragon. This is likely only possible in the mirror match against another Non-Karrthus build that only has three dragons. Corner case? Absolutely, but if this deck is good, it will matter.
Karrthus is harder to cast than Hellkite Charger, but so what? Your goal is to cast Dragonstorm, and if you happen to draw a Bogardan Hellkite or have insufficient Storm, you want to be able to still win in the most efficient manner possible.
Again: Karrthus is better than every non-Bogardan Hellkite dragon in every situation where you're comboing off.
Hellkite Overlord is more expensive (for hard-casting purposes) and prone to all the same removal as Karrthus, but Karrthus kills at a lower storm than Overlord.
RE: "What if you draw Karrthus?"
Then you just get four Bogardan Hellkites, as usual.
Seriously guys, have you ever played this deck?