Fish
Fae
Elves
Jund
12 Post
Affinity/Tempered Steel
RDW
Junk/Rock
Zoo
Boros
I don't think Fish can compete in this format. Losing all its free counters and Wasteland hurts pretty bad, even if all the creatures and Aether Vial are available. And Fae is dead after the banning of Bitterblossom. Just because you put Vendilion Clique and Spellstutter Sprite in a U/x Control deck doesn't mean it's a Faeries deck.
its the turn speed of combo decks. They have fixed modern by slowing combos down. I really don't know the OE ban list by heart, but several cards are very powerful from the sets before mirriodin and I know not all of them got the ban hammer.
Oh. I thought you were talking about Depths being kept in check. Depths really is a moot point, because I'm pretty sure it's one of the cards Wizards is pretty dead-set on. I'll stop arguing about it.
OE's ban list was pretty similar to Modern's for the Community Cup, except it had the Artifact Lands unbanned, and trades Depths for Hypergenesis. That might seem bad, but neither Affinity nor Depths decks ever put up particularly impressive numbers beyond a win for Affinity and two Top 16's for Depths. Just three placings between both decks in 11 weeks. So, the formats were largely similar. Elves had a backup plan of Buried Alive and Vengevine, making it more powerful but no faster than Modern Elves before the banning of Glimpse. I don't know about speed differences firsthand, though, because I only looked at results; I was never able to participate. So, you may be right on that.
Of course it wasn't proven in the pre-ban meta. Depths was banned; how could it have been? But it was proven in OE.
Also, Slip, I want to ask you a quick question. You've posted multiple times that you consider OE to be Legacy Lite, but you're clearly a huge proponent of Modern. What makes the difference for you? I'm honestly curious, because I don't see OE that way at all.
overextended is a different format though. Since the bannings the power level of every non zoo,jund,12 post deck has gone down considerable. It would be broken in this format I guarantee that.
OE had an almost identical meta to Modern. Despite the fact that you seem to think OE is just Legacy Lite, they are almost the same. And of course Dark Depths wouldn't come off before Misstep, Vision, Bitterblossom, Valakut, Jace, Dread Return, and Stoneforge, but none of those should be banned in the first place (okay, maybe Stoneforge). With strong control decks in the metagame, I highly doubt Depths would dominate.
It ruled the extended format it was in, and was highly format warping. Without the thopter combo it is a little worse since it lacks inevitability to hate, but some new cards would probably help it out a ton. Also packing grim discovery gets you both pieces back.
Thing is, the deck that dominated wasn't Dark Depths, it was Thopter Depths. The Thopter-Sword combo is much more broken. It sees play in Legacy, in fact. Technically the Depths combo does too, but never by itself (it's a backup plan in some Junk decks), whereas the Thopter combo has seen play as the primary win condition in Legacy decks before.
There is evidence, provided by Overextended, that Dark Depths by itself is not only incapable of dominance, but is in fact not even good enough to see play.
3. Dark Depths is a dumb card in the same realm as SFM. It's an answer or die combo and it's outrageously compact. It is also a lot harder to answer than other comparable turn 3 or turn 4 combos.
-ktkenshinx-
If Dark Depths were so overpowered it would have dominated Overextended, and I've seen you comment on articles on Gavin's OE site often enough to know that you know it didn't come close to oppressing that format. That said, I don't mind if it's banned, but I don't think it really needs to be.
hypergenesis and Elves forced decks to run a lot faster, and made several other decks too weak.
SFM made you win with a combo or have artifact hate.
Removing those cards was good. The rest of them that weren't on the old ban list not so much.
Yeah, I said Hypergen and Glimpse were good bans. Stoneforge is debatable. I didn't see it dominating anything, but given how powerful the card is and the fact that this format doesn't rotate, a later printing could easily make a deck that was too powerful. I get the Stoneforge ban, even though I don't like it. Like you said though, the others were not good bans.
I think they went a little overboard with the bannings, but I actually like how open the format is right now. I took a look at all the different archetypes listed in the modern section, and there seem to be quite a few with a good chance of winning if people don't prepare for them. The format still seems very diverse, even though they did kick U/x control in the balls quite a bit. That said, combo is definitely still alive and kicking, so I'm not really sure the bans did what they were supposed to...
The format was every bit as open, if not more so, before the bannings. Outside of the Hypergenesis and Glimpse of Nature bans, all they did was kill Tier 1.5/2 decks that weren't even close to dominating.
No, it really is because Turn 1 is a dead turn in Modern for any realistic deck playing Blue. Being able to draw 4 cards on Turn 5, the Pivotal turn in Modern, essentially for free, is too powerful.
First, turn 4 is the critical turn for Modern. Second, Ancestral Vision is not overpowered. I mean, maybe in Standard (maybe), but this is an Eternal format for Pete's sake. It'd be just fine in Modern.
Allowing fetchlands to enable good Zoo decks is far less oppressing on the format than allowing artifact lands to vault Ravager Affinity into tier 0.
The Artifact Lands would not make Affinity "Tier 0." In Overextended, where the Artifact Lands were unbanned, Affinity was mediocre at best. All the same hate that can keep it in check there is legal in Modern.
Reason for the ban? I can almost guarantee this is how they looked at it. If this isn't the way they looked at it and only went o look it sees Legacy play you'd of seen a whole hell of a lot longer ban list.
Statement: Turn 4 I get to draw three cards.
Question: O you're tapping out for Concentrate?
Statement: O god no, I get them for free.
Question: Why do you get 3 cards for free?
Statement: Ancenstral Vision my friend.
Question: Wait... So you're saying you paid mana for it on turn one but yet you get the benefit of not having to pay four mana now and having your turn be spent?
Statement: Yeah, it's pretty good isn't it.
Question: So there is no downside to this card early game?
Statement: Nope, the format lasts between 4-10 turns depending on the decks.
Question: So this is really only a dead card if you draw it your last turns as you would win or lose anyway?
Statement: Yeah, and even then if I had to tap out to cast concentrate it isn't like I would be helping myself with anything as this is a snowball format.
Question: So why does this card exist?
Statement: Good question.
[BANNED]
Ancestral Vision doesn't unsuspend on turn 4. Suspend 4, not 3. Regardless, I'm fairly certain the reason for the ban is not because it's overpowered, because it isn't. I think they just wanted to make Blue work harder for its card draw, but I don't think that's a good enough reason.
consistent turn 3 is what i aim for most of the time i get the turn 3 win, without protection. If they are playing blue i will wait a turn. Its all in knowing what hands to keep, i look for 2 lands around 2 parts of the combo and a few filter cards.
Maybe it's just the Cockatrice shuffler, but I rarely win before turn 4. *shrug* If you do manage to consistently win on turn 3, then Ember_Twilight is right, Protean Hulk will get banned. :/
Seems fun and I might actually have the money to get into an Eternal Format for once. The legality is a little confusing. Every set after 8th and Mirrodin right?
Yes. The modern card frames thing is just a general guide for newer players. If you just go by what set the card is in, you'll be fine, because that is what actually determines the legality of a card, not the frame. For example, you could be awesome and use the old Grim Lavamancer instead of the ugly new one, and even though it is in an old frame, it is still usable.
As I have said before, I can see them Unbanning Misstep and maybe Dread Return after Philly, and adding two or three other cards. Everything else is justified being on that list.
Every player who has been watching the evolution of this format has the right to be a little upset by these bannings. I mean, they are more than a little draconian. Almost anything that resembled an obvious deck choice that has had more than moderate success in recent time has been hit with the ban hammer. From the fae to valakut. From everything in dredge to everything in the recent rash of U/W bullcrap that has poped up in every format.
On some level we all know that some of this is a little bit of a good thing. Affinity and hypergenesis and fast combo need a good kick in the balls. And that rash of U/W domination just wasn't fun anymore for ANYBODY.
However, nobody I've talked about this list with can look at it and NOT find at least three cards that just SHOULDN'T be here! Valakut? over SCAPESHIFT? ...why?
I think (andireallyhope...) that this list is a mercy toss to the folks playing the protour. This is a whole new format. And its bloody HUGE. Neutering half of the really obvious decks will make things easier on pros and kids who took down PTQs. I mean, they have a little more than a month to break a huge card pool.
Not having to think about jace tests and how many outs you have for t3 kills while the format is so young might leave more room for exploration.
That said, I'm sleeving 12post for a while... might be able to beat zoo and do well in the meta... if no one makes a ponza deck...
No, they have three weeks. I'm not arguing with the "they have time" thing, but it's less time than you think.
I don't think Fish can compete in this format. Losing all its free counters and Wasteland hurts pretty bad, even if all the creatures and Aether Vial are available. And Fae is dead after the banning of Bitterblossom. Just because you put Vendilion Clique and Spellstutter Sprite in a U/x Control deck doesn't mean it's a Faeries deck.
Oh. I thought you were talking about Depths being kept in check. Depths really is a moot point, because I'm pretty sure it's one of the cards Wizards is pretty dead-set on. I'll stop arguing about it.
OE's ban list was pretty similar to Modern's for the Community Cup, except it had the Artifact Lands unbanned, and trades Depths for Hypergenesis. That might seem bad, but neither Affinity nor Depths decks ever put up particularly impressive numbers beyond a win for Affinity and two Top 16's for Depths. Just three placings between both decks in 11 weeks. So, the formats were largely similar. Elves had a backup plan of Buried Alive and Vengevine, making it more powerful but no faster than Modern Elves before the banning of Glimpse. I don't know about speed differences firsthand, though, because I only looked at results; I was never able to participate. So, you may be right on that.
Of course it wasn't proven in the pre-ban meta. Depths was banned; how could it have been? But it was proven in OE.
Also, Slip, I want to ask you a quick question. You've posted multiple times that you consider OE to be Legacy Lite, but you're clearly a huge proponent of Modern. What makes the difference for you? I'm honestly curious, because I don't see OE that way at all.
OE had an almost identical meta to Modern. Despite the fact that you seem to think OE is just Legacy Lite, they are almost the same. And of course Dark Depths wouldn't come off before Misstep, Vision, Bitterblossom, Valakut, Jace, Dread Return, and Stoneforge, but none of those should be banned in the first place (okay, maybe Stoneforge). With strong control decks in the metagame, I highly doubt Depths would dominate.
Thing is, the deck that dominated wasn't Dark Depths, it was Thopter Depths. The Thopter-Sword combo is much more broken. It sees play in Legacy, in fact. Technically the Depths combo does too, but never by itself (it's a backup plan in some Junk decks), whereas the Thopter combo has seen play as the primary win condition in Legacy decks before.
There is evidence, provided by Overextended, that Dark Depths by itself is not only incapable of dominance, but is in fact not even good enough to see play.
If Dark Depths were so overpowered it would have dominated Overextended, and I've seen you comment on articles on Gavin's OE site often enough to know that you know it didn't come close to oppressing that format. That said, I don't mind if it's banned, but I don't think it really needs to be.
Yeah, I know you were. And yes, it was. But I wanted to play with it so bad! D:
Yeah, I said Hypergen and Glimpse were good bans. Stoneforge is debatable. I didn't see it dominating anything, but given how powerful the card is and the fact that this format doesn't rotate, a later printing could easily make a deck that was too powerful. I get the Stoneforge ban, even though I don't like it. Like you said though, the others were not good bans.
The format was every bit as open, if not more so, before the bannings. Outside of the Hypergenesis and Glimpse of Nature bans, all they did was kill Tier 1.5/2 decks that weren't even close to dominating.
First, turn 4 is the critical turn for Modern. Second, Ancestral Vision is not overpowered. I mean, maybe in Standard (maybe), but this is an Eternal format for Pete's sake. It'd be just fine in Modern.
The Artifact Lands would not make Affinity "Tier 0." In Overextended, where the Artifact Lands were unbanned, Affinity was mediocre at best. All the same hate that can keep it in check there is legal in Modern.
Ancestral Vision doesn't unsuspend on turn 4. Suspend 4, not 3. Regardless, I'm fairly certain the reason for the ban is not because it's overpowered, because it isn't. I think they just wanted to make Blue work harder for its card draw, but I don't think that's a good enough reason.
Maybe it's just the Cockatrice shuffler, but I rarely win before turn 4. *shrug* If you do manage to consistently win on turn 3, then Ember_Twilight is right, Protean Hulk will get banned. :/
Yes. The modern card frames thing is just a general guide for newer players. If you just go by what set the card is in, you'll be fine, because that is what actually determines the legality of a card, not the frame. For example, you could be awesome and use the old Grim Lavamancer instead of the ugly new one, and even though it is in an old frame, it is still usable.
Not you specifically, that was the general reaction from most people on this forum.
Ancestral Vision?
No, they have three weeks. I'm not arguing with the "they have time" thing, but it's less time than you think.