Why? All the tempo decks don't play the Dreadnought and utilize them just fine.
Id like it just because its such an explosive card. If I had that in my goblins and turbo ramp matches the other week I think I would have taken first. Somebody really needs to be playing the right colors to deal with something that big so early in the game, and if they are its easy enough to side them out after probably stealing game 1 REAL quick
I've been debating stifle for a while now and it seems like it would be a really solid utility card. If I went out and bought a playset though, I would def want tge dreadnaughts to compliment them. Looking back on so many games, the stiflenaught combo would have been so strong in so many matchups
I disagree with you saying that shackles isn't all that powerful right now. The fact that the card is reusable over and over again is so powerful. Not many cards are like that and it definitely wins games by its self. I really never find fighting against creatures to be that bothersome when I play muc.
Now I will say that jace is a problem, but I feel a lot of decks have that problem. I do think that trinket mage might be okay if we are able to get the right amount of tools for him.
I really want to stop using keg/bomb since I am always disappointed from those cards but not really sure what to do about that.
I'll agree that Shackles is a total bomb, but that wasn't my point. Shackles doesn't win the game on its own, its a combination of all the tools the deck utilizes. My point was that our tools as a total are slow seeing that they mostly all sit at 3cc, and some, like shackles, need an additional mana investment. A turn 5 b2b is only okay and pretty easy to play around. Grabbing a creature with shackles turn 5 is only okay as well when playing zoo, or bant, or even goblins.
I also agree about keg/bomb... but what to even replace them with I really don't know. Oblivion stone is certainly nice, but its also slow as fuggg. Nevinyrral's Disk isn't bad either. I used it once, but I had to clear the board of my own stuff as well and wasn't a fan.
I'm going to do some playtesting tonight with the trinketmage package and see how that goes. The only decks I have to test against right now are my own UB Merfolk, countersliver and BR goblins, but it'll be interesting.
Shackles and Back to Basics really aren't all that powerful right now though. In such a fast paced meta, they're actually rather slow. In fact the whole deck is rather slow. If I can't counter every one of my opponents spells for the first three turns, than the power of deck drops. Basically, we NEED to counter them out as fast as we can because the core of the deck are all 3cc drops. If I drop shackles turn 3, then I don't get b2b out til turn 5, and vise versa. Thats pretty sad, seeing as how so many decks can set up and have you dead by turn 5, and we're just barely able to stabilize at that point. Not to mention most decks nowadays don't run a 4cc drop unless it wins them the game.
I have about 15 counters in my deck for this reason (4 FoW, 4 counterspell, 4 Spell Snare, 3 Spell pierce). I'm also thinking that propaganda might be more necessary mainboard. When we combine that card with b2b we can really slow the pace down so much.
Also, a really big problem I've been having with this deck is playing against Jace. I run 2 Power Keg and 1 Rathet Bomb. If they drop Jace while I've got a keg down, I might as well scoop. I'm thinking that trinket mage package might be necessary? But then again.... that comes back to the problem of 3cc drops
I liked the idea if the 3 color build, but it comes back to the same thing discussed a while back; if you're going to start running other colors, why not go all the way? The list posted before might as well have been counter top or landstill. This is another thing I noticed, isn't landstill basically the new age MUC? Its a pure control deck that has adapted to beat the meta. Basically, its the new powerhouse of control and makes MUC look like an old archetype.
Spell Snare works wonders when its in your opening hand. I really don't know if I would want to cut that card or not.
Overall, I like that list a lot though. When I get a chance I'll fool around with it and see what I can come up with cause there is definitely room for some cuts and additions. I'm mostly thinking about FoF when I say that, I think 2 is a solid number in a build like that.... that being the number that most landstill decks run. Also, don't forget that basically everyone's deck runs at least a singleton academy ruins, which means at least one EE could be dropped as well as a relic. Additionally, if we're not running B2B (I don't even think its SB material at this point, honestly), we could run mishra's factory and maybe 1 faerie conclave? Thats just something I've always wanted to try in a deck like this.
I wouldn't consider meekstone as a starting point from which develope a muc around it.
I would only consider it as a 1X in a build with at least
3 trinket mage
3 engineered explosives
1 sensei's divining top
1 relic of progenitus
1 pithing needle
0/1 meekstone
(because these artifact are more important to fetch with trinket)
trinket calls e.e.
e.e. calls splash Uxy
splash calls: 4 Swords to plowshares + 3 peacekeeper + 3 perish in my 75 cards.
... to my view...
Is anyone working or wants to work on a trinket splash build ?
I'm def interested in the idea, but most of the people want to keep the build mono blue. I've stated my opinion over and over again however on the matter; and that is that the mono blue route is just to slow for todays meta. I could test on MWS, but I don't have cards like that on paper.
also @ Kyle Hyde.
I really don't like ancestral vision at all, no one really does. Some like impulse, but I've become less and less a fan of the card. Too many times I'll have all 4 cards be lands, or two cards that I both need equally as bad. I prefer just playing ponder
I really like the idea of meekstone and was going to try them out but my store didn't have any in the binder for whatever reason. I think if I do end up trying them out I would want to run a few trinkets mage with relic/ tormods and pithing needle MD as well as a one of
I didn't get a chance to play merfolk that day, but I think that card would still be solid against them. I know what you're thinking about LoA , but those should be the number 1 priority to stop and this deck should never really have a problem in a counter war against merfolk. I've just always had a real strong game against them game 1, and like I said it seemed like it was a more flexible card then llawan & I did side it in vs thopter . All that being said though, it was just a test more than anything . I wasn't expecting to do better than 3 - 2.
Kira only defends against targeted removal. A mass-effect like firespout/wrath will still hit your team because it's untargeted. Same goes for any spell with "all creatures" in the rules.
Kira has its merits in the game, but I wouldn't want it in my MD tbh. It's great against certain matchups and in others it's a wasted slot.
@ bradstone:
Jitte, Pierce, Needle are in. I'm not sold on plague for that meta and perish is hit-or-miss depending on what's thrown to you (great against green critter decks, terrible against the other 50% of the meta). I think the 4th type of card should be bounce/stealing in echoing truth or submerge or mind harness. A 5th choice is up to you....maybe 2x Perish if you feel you're going to die miserably.
That's what I was thinking about e.plague, although can also be put in against dredge and other rogue tribal decks. I just really don't know what to do against the goblin match up.
I think most people are on the fence about propaganda. I find myself almost never sideboarding it in, and I've def been thinking about taking it out.
I am in full favor of running spell pierce mainboard. I put it in and have been really pleased with its results. Its an easy sideboard out when not needed and in game one when its not so good its solid fodder for FoW.
I'll post my list tomorrow when I get to my house. I'm really not sure why I keep winning the merfolk matchup, but I do. I basically never lose game 1, and game two I would drop llawan on them and they never answered. LLawan is cool cause he works against NO real well too, but I feel like perish and e.plague are overall more useful in the side.
I think the best way to use energy field is to combine it with chalice of the void and O stone. You still need some way to wipe the board, and O stone allows you to stall them out while protecting you stuff and just clean them out while pretty much not effecting your board. Chalice will stop cards like TS and duress which would break your little combo up. This version is pretty weak vs anything that runs pridemage though, but it is very strong against merfolk and gobs.
I love clique, but I don't consider it a will con{even though it can win games} and pithing needle is good main deck. I also have been playing repeal in the main deck and it has been doing very well for me since it doesn't cost me a card.
I like sower against show and tell decks, but if it is to slow for you I think I would run waterfront bouncer since it is reusable.
This seems unnecessary. I've played this deck a few times in legacy tournaments and I am yet to lose a match to merfolk or goblins. Shackles will win you those match ups on its own.
The past sunday I ran basically the same MUC deck I'd been running before, but with some slight changes. I splashed black for 3 Go for the throat mainboard, and in the side had 4 Engineered Plague and 3Perish.
E.Plague allowed me to absolutely DOMINATE goblins in game 2 and Perish got me one win on BANT, which was nice because BANT, in my honest opinion is our worst matchup. Pridemage + Krosan Grip is already devastating while Trygon Predator just adds insult to injury.
Though I had a slightly better record that day, I still lost the same old troublesome matchups, and beat the decks I was beating before with the completely MU build. Matches went like this:
Goblins (2-0)
Dragon Stompy (2-0)
BANT (1-2)
Thopter Combo (0-2)
Death & Taxes (2-0)
That is some solid advice, thank you very much! I def agree about the shackles, I was playtesting them the other day and while I would hit enough lands to play it, it would usually only be with like 2 islands on the board. I also agree about Kira, I almost never see spot removal except in the form of StP and PtE. Just about any other time its firespout.
Not sure how I feel about taking out echoing truth however, that card has been really clutch for me and won me some games, whether its saving my creatures, or bouncing a nasty enchantment.
I won't be playing again til the 20th so I'll def have some time to do some editing and playtesting.
So, in the opinion of the people in this thread, would you consider this to be a strong sideboard for a meta consisting of a HUGE variety of decks? I'm talking CT (4c, Thopter, Plainswalker), BANT, Gobs, Burn/Sligh, Combo (Doomsday, TES, etc), Show and Tell, Stompy, Eldrazi Ramp, Zoo, Dredge, Dead Guy, Junk Rock, Affinity, Infect and the list goes on. And if not, what would you change.
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pithing Needle
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
1 Vedalken Shackles
edit: I know people are against one ofs, so that shackles could easily become a 4th of any other card excluding E.Plague
Id like it just because its such an explosive card. If I had that in my goblins and turbo ramp matches the other week I think I would have taken first. Somebody really needs to be playing the right colors to deal with something that big so early in the game, and if they are its easy enough to side them out after probably stealing game 1 REAL quick
I'll agree that Shackles is a total bomb, but that wasn't my point. Shackles doesn't win the game on its own, its a combination of all the tools the deck utilizes. My point was that our tools as a total are slow seeing that they mostly all sit at 3cc, and some, like shackles, need an additional mana investment. A turn 5 b2b is only okay and pretty easy to play around. Grabbing a creature with shackles turn 5 is only okay as well when playing zoo, or bant, or even goblins.
I also agree about keg/bomb... but what to even replace them with I really don't know. Oblivion stone is certainly nice, but its also slow as fuggg. Nevinyrral's Disk isn't bad either. I used it once, but I had to clear the board of my own stuff as well and wasn't a fan.
I'm going to do some playtesting tonight with the trinketmage package and see how that goes. The only decks I have to test against right now are my own UB Merfolk, countersliver and BR goblins, but it'll be interesting.
edit: what do people think about invoke prejudice?
I have about 15 counters in my deck for this reason (4 FoW, 4 counterspell, 4 Spell Snare, 3 Spell pierce). I'm also thinking that propaganda might be more necessary mainboard. When we combine that card with b2b we can really slow the pace down so much.
Also, a really big problem I've been having with this deck is playing against Jace. I run 2 Power Keg and 1 Rathet Bomb. If they drop Jace while I've got a keg down, I might as well scoop. I'm thinking that trinket mage package might be necessary? But then again.... that comes back to the problem of 3cc drops
Overall, I like that list a lot though. When I get a chance I'll fool around with it and see what I can come up with cause there is definitely room for some cuts and additions. I'm mostly thinking about FoF when I say that, I think 2 is a solid number in a build like that.... that being the number that most landstill decks run. Also, don't forget that basically everyone's deck runs at least a singleton academy ruins, which means at least one EE could be dropped as well as a relic. Additionally, if we're not running B2B (I don't even think its SB material at this point, honestly), we could run mishra's factory and maybe 1 faerie conclave? Thats just something I've always wanted to try in a deck like this.
I'm def interested in the idea, but most of the people want to keep the build mono blue. I've stated my opinion over and over again however on the matter; and that is that the mono blue route is just to slow for todays meta. I could test on MWS, but I don't have cards like that on paper.
also @ Kyle Hyde.
I really don't like ancestral vision at all, no one really does. Some like impulse, but I've become less and less a fan of the card. Too many times I'll have all 4 cards be lands, or two cards that I both need equally as bad. I prefer just playing ponder
That's what I was thinking about e.plague, although can also be put in against dredge and other rogue tribal decks. I just really don't know what to do against the goblin match up.
I am in full favor of running spell pierce mainboard. I put it in and have been really pleased with its results. Its an easy sideboard out when not needed and in game one when its not so good its solid fodder for FoW.
I'll post my list tomorrow when I get to my house. I'm really not sure why I keep winning the merfolk matchup, but I do. I basically never lose game 1, and game two I would drop llawan on them and they never answered. LLawan is cool cause he works against NO real well too, but I feel like perish and e.plague are overall more useful in the side.
This seems unnecessary. I've played this deck a few times in legacy tournaments and I am yet to lose a match to merfolk or goblins. Shackles will win you those match ups on its own.
The past sunday I ran basically the same MUC deck I'd been running before, but with some slight changes. I splashed black for 3 Go for the throat mainboard, and in the side had 4 Engineered Plague and 3Perish.
E.Plague allowed me to absolutely DOMINATE goblins in game 2 and Perish got me one win on BANT, which was nice because BANT, in my honest opinion is our worst matchup. Pridemage + Krosan Grip is already devastating while Trygon Predator just adds insult to injury.
Though I had a slightly better record that day, I still lost the same old troublesome matchups, and beat the decks I was beating before with the completely MU build. Matches went like this:
Goblins (2-0)
Dragon Stompy (2-0)
BANT (1-2)
Thopter Combo (0-2)
Death & Taxes (2-0)
Not sure how I feel about taking out echoing truth however, that card has been really clutch for me and won me some games, whether its saving my creatures, or bouncing a nasty enchantment.
I won't be playing again til the 20th so I'll def have some time to do some editing and playtesting.
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pithing Needle
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
1 Vedalken Shackles
edit: I know people are against one ofs, so that shackles could easily become a 4th of any other card excluding E.Plague