Everything a control deck needs, except, you know, being a Sorcery...
RSZ does what Day of Judgment cannot: permanently "solve" a Geralf's Messenger, Gravecrawler, or Strangleroot Geist. Furthermore, if you are playing a red control list, you don't need mana up for countermagic, so concerns about leaving mana up during your opponent's turn aren't as relevant.
I think zombies (Gravecrawler and Geralf's Messenger) is too strong an archetype to run anything OTHER than 4 Red Sun's Zenith. That card is everything any control deck needs right now against those bruisers. If you want to beat those good aggro decks, you need 4 RSZ. I also think that Curse of the Pierced Heart should not be overlooked.
This is a more aggressive take on the deck. If anyone wants my rationale on the card selection in the main and SB, I'm happy to go into detail. In short: you have to run an extremely high density of creatures to validate Skaab Ruinator, Splinterfright, and Dream Twist. Stray too much from that formula and you water down the synergy of that card pairing.
@brainfreeze42
How are is your dredge package (dream twist + mulch) working out for you? is it enough dredge? why did you not include forbidden alchemy?
Dream Twist + Mulch work great for my build, but it's all about the density of creatures in the deck. Because 30/60 cards in my deck are creatures, Mulch and Dream Twist do a lot of work for me. They're also cheaper than Forbidden Alchemy, meaning that when you have an opener with Splinterfright in it, you can reliably cast him T3 as a 2/2 at worst. I recognize that Alchemy is a great card, but there's just no room for it in my build. Plus, I can't afford a black splash because the manabase is very demanding in the first 3 turns--especially with 4 Hinterland Harbors (i.e., what if your opener contains Swamp, Harbor?). You need GG to be able to cast things and activate Skinshifter to trample in. You need UU to be able to cast the Ruinator. Things like that.
A lot of my buddies were knocking Dream Twist, saying that it was sub-par, but I honestly feel like it's an Ancestral Recall with flashback at times. What difference does it make if your Skaab Ruinator goes into your hand or your GY? You're paying the same mana cost for it. And after Game 1, when you pull 4 Ancient Grudges into your deck to deal with Swords or Tempered Steel, Dream Twist's similarity to Ancestral Recall becomes all the more pronounced. It's also a good combat trick to use with Splinterfrights against unsuspecting opponents.
I ran a dredge list at the SCG Baltimore Open last Saturday. At one point I was 3-1, but multiple pairings against Wolf Run Ramp--with a sideboard that didn't address that deck at all--left me at 4-4 drop in the end. I've made some updates based on my experience and this is what I'll be running in the future:
I think that if you are running 3-4 colors for Unburial Rites/Sun Titan shenanigans, you're running a Solar Flare variant--a dead deck at this point.
Some finer points of the deck:
You have to have a critical mass of creatures to optimize many of the cards here. You'll be surprised by how many times the Chancellor is in your opener, allowing you to start Looting with merfolk or beating down with Skinshifters on T2. Viridian Emissary helps make your Chancellors more than just looting targets, and Molten-Tail Masticore gives additional reach to a UG deck that would normally stall out against an opponent that stabilizes. Mulch + Masticore were made for each other. Skinshifter is all-time MVP, and Phantasmal Bear "gets there;" don't knock it till you've tried it.
A lot of people get distracted by having both Splinterfright and Skaab Ruinator in the same deck. I'll concede that there's a lack of synergy between them on paper, but over 8 matches last Saturday it was never once an issue for me.
The Ancient Grudges in the SB are intended to be played strictly from the GY. There comes a point when you have to recognize the strengths and limitations of a deck, and I don't think Naturalize or Mountains have a place here. Besides, this isn't a control deck--you just need to pop that Wurmcoil or Inkmoth Nexus once, and finish the game with the rest of your damage.
It's pretty rare to get metal craft with the opal for kred.
This statement hinges on the type of Kred build being played. If you're running a very aggressive version that runs 4 Memnites, 4 Ornithopters, a few Panic Spellbombs and Gitaxian Probes, the question isn't so much, "Will I have metalcraft to activate my Opal?", but rather, "Is my metalcraft opener going to be made relevant by having an Opal in it?" It happens pretty frequently for me; not all the time, but enough that the Opal is tapping for mana about as frequently as it's getting blown up to make goblins.
To the OP: Based on the fact that your opponent was playing Goblin Wardriver, I'd say that their game 1 opener was very rare for them. Wardriver is just slow, and doesn't really "get there" in the way that Kred needs to in the early turns. If you're running Goblin Wardriver, you're probably running Goblin Chieftan and doing a strong Goblin subtheme in the deck... blurring the lines as to whether you're playing Kred or a goblin deck that happens to use Kuldotha Rebirth.
Your creature suite is more resilient with choices like Cystbearer and Blightwidow, and Leyline/Accorder's Shield make them even more difficult to break through. GSZ adds toolbox ability to ensure you get a Glistener Elf down by turn 2 pretty consistently, and also let you pull out a blightwidow or Viridian Corrupter if flyers or swords are giving you a problem.
The fun part of the deck comes in the form of Twisted Image, which works great with blightwidows and cystbearers who will likely have bigger toughness due to the Leylines and Accorder's Shields already. It also picks off pesky Spellskites and it cantrips, all for U.
I participated in the Charlottesville, VA SCG IQ yesterday. There were only 23 participants, but I felt that the decks being played were all high-caliber. I've always wanted to play Kuldotha Red, and seeing as so many of the pieces are rotating out in several months, I wanted to give it a shot. I know some of the "slower" Kred decks have been having success, but I wanted to make mine as hyperaggressive as possible, which explains my decklist choices.
I finished 9th, barely missing the cut for top 8. My games were as follows:
Match 1: Esper Control (2-0)
Both games were pretty 1-sided because his deck was just too slow. I won on T4 and T5, respectively. Probably the quote of the tournament (for me) was when he looked at the boardstate (I had a Memnite and a Signal Pest on-board) and mumbled "I can afford to take 2 next turn," before tapping out to play SoWaP and attacking with the Porcelain Legionnaire he had played on T2 (paying 2 life!). I ripped a Goblin Bushwhacker off the top to join the mountain and Signal Pest I had in hand, played my 3rd land and tapped out to play both creatures and swing for 12, bringing him to 4!
Match 2: Pyromancer's Ascension w/ Splinter Exarch SB swap (0-2)
This archetype owns us, I think. He burned everything I had almost as soon as I could play it. Being new to Kred, I did make some play errors that might have swung things differently, but several "for fun" games afterwards convinced me that this matchup is just really bad for us.
Match 3: GW Fauna Shaman/Vengevine/Caw blade package (2-0)
I was on the draw both games in this matchup but was still able to put enough pressure down that he was forced to chump block with his Stoneforge Mystics and Inkmoth Nexus to keep himself above 3 life; he never had the chance to play Batterskull. How sad that Lightning Bolt is rotating; the mere threat of it forces sub-optimal play decisions against a deck this aggressive. Devastating Summons for 4 kept him on the back foot, and (through sheer luck rather than planning) invalidated his potentially-clutch play of Blade Splicer as he was trying to stabilize.
Match 4: UB Tezz Infect (2-1)
This was a very close matchup. Necropede and Phyrexian Crusader are a nightmare. I blew him out game 1; game 2 he stabilized and used Tezz to make monstrous 5/5 infect creatures; and game 3 yielded my second "Great Moments with Kred" play of the tournament. I had a blistering opener with Mox Opal and other stuff to swing big by T3 to take him to 4 life--Panic Spellbomb was amazing here because it allowed me to attack past his lone Necropede. However, my Goblin Guide revealed a Black Sun's Zenith on the top of his library and I had no cards in hand! So he untaps, plays his 3rd land, Zeniths the board away (Necropede trigger kills my Goblin Guide), and fortunately I had a Perilous Myr in this mix to send at his face for 2 damage. Over the next 3 turns I draw land as he infected me with a Plague Myr. He finally draws a Phyrexian Vatmother (from his SB) and threatens to kill me next turn, and I topdeck... Arc Trail! Win!
Match 5: RDW (1-2)
I was 7th at this point, and wanted to ID into top 8, but my opponent needed to play b/c there was a possibility that he'd get shoved down to 9th. So we played. Game 1 I blew him out with Kuldotha Rebirth and a Bushwhacker and a Contested War Zone. Games 2 & 3, he found his Vulshok Refugee and I never found mine. GG.
General Impressions: This is probably the most fun I've had playing Magic in a long time (ever?). I didn't really expect to win very much with this deck, but it has a way of surprising you--and your opponent--with just the right topdeck at just the right time. I did a lot of reading on this forum before heading out with my deck, and I wanted to address a few issues of contention based on my experience. Keep in mind that my points are from the perspective of the most aggressive swarm Kred I could cook up.
Gitaxian Probe--I want the 56-card deck since I'm playing probably the most aggressive version of Kred you can build right now. The value in paying 2 life on T1 to draw into another 0-drop creature is hard to overstate. I understand the "slower" Kred's concern for value, though. I just want to swarm as fast as possible, and the number of cards in the pool is too small to dilute the deck with more burn. Panic Spellbomb--This card is nuts. It was somewhat filler for me that filled both the role of Artifact and Card Draw. But hey, what do you know--its ability won me at least two games yesterday. Preserving your 1-toughness creatures for that one extra turn is very valuable in a deck with 4 Bushwhackers and 4 Contested War Zones Ornithopter--Meh. I can see why some posts in this thread rage against Ornithopter. There were some games where I was swinging (desperately) for 1 damage a turn off an Ornithopter pumped by War Zone. It's a 4-of for this deck but I can see it being cut back in other versions.
That's all for now. Hope you enjoyed the report and good luck carrying the torch!
What about an activated Inkmoth Nexus? Here is a couple of scenarios that I am wondering how they would work.
1: pay 1, activate inkmoth, cast metamorph. What happens to metamorph at end of turn? Stays a 1/1 flying infect or no?
2: pay 1, activate inkmoth, use Tezz's -1 to turn it into a 5/5, cast metamoprh. What happens to metamorph at end of turn? Stay a 5/5 flying infect or a 5/5 regular creature or what?
The mechanics are the same in both of your examples. If you have an activated Inkmoth Nexus, and you cast Phyrexian Metamorph copying it, your Metamorph will copy all of the text of the card it is copying. So it doesn't enter play as a creature at all! It is actually a nonbasic land called "Inkmoth Nexus" with the ability, "1: Inkmoth Nexus becomes a 1/1 Blinkmoth artifact creature with flying and infect until end of turn. It's still a land." Keep in mind that it is also an artifact land, but not because of any text on Inkmoth Nexus--it's an artifact because Phyrexian Metamorph's clone ability stipulates this. It doesn't matter if you've used Tezz's "-1" on the original Nexus, it doesn't matter if the Nexus has been Giant Growthed, and so on. Essentially, you just paid 4 mana to put an extra land into play. If you want to USE that new Inkmoth Nexus, you'll have to pay the activation cost since it enters the battlefield as a nonbasic land.
This deck is designed to hate on a lot of the metagame staples. Has anyone else been experimenting with this? It really messes with your opponent's curve; it dominates Caw and Boros variants.
Sanctity is actually pretty insane. It blanks Mono-Black so hard- Phyrexian Obliterator and Gatekeeper of Malakir can't make you sacrifice
This is actually not correct with regard to Phyrexian Obliterator. The Obliterator doesn't target, so you'll still have to sacrifice cards to him even if you have Leyline of Sanctity in play.
Good job on the tourney attempt. At a minimum I think it's safe to say that while this may not be super-competitive, it does have some great moments and has the potential to wreck certain variants.
I still feel that RG is the way to go with this deck, but if you're heart-set on GW, I'll defer to the person who has actually played the deck. Leonin Relic-warder is a sleeper bomb in the meta right now and many people haven't discovered it yet.
That having been said, one possibility is to shoot for an infect build using Priests of Norn, 4 maindeck Viridian Corrupters, and run Slice in Twain b/c it curves out fine after all those 3-drops. The priests will allow you to put a little pressure down while also being great blockers against the aggro in the format. Of course, Sun Titan becomes somewhat lackluster if your plan is infect... I dunno. It just seems pointless to me to go white just for Sun Titan is the only card you can abusively recycle is Sylvok Replica. You'd have to fiddle with it to see what you like; I'm just coughing up ideas. White also gives you access to Salvage Scout, which will give you back those LMC's that get countered/destroyed.
Finally: I also think the whiff on Pyroclasm depends largely on your meta. My locale sees a lot of elves, Kuldotha red, and Tempered Steel decks.
RSZ does what Day of Judgment cannot: permanently "solve" a Geralf's Messenger, Gravecrawler, or Strangleroot Geist. Furthermore, if you are playing a red control list, you don't need mana up for countermagic, so concerns about leaving mana up during your opponent's turn aren't as relevant.
4 Hinterland Harbor
9 Island
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Merfolk Looter
4 Skinshifter
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Viridian Emissary
3 Skaab Ruinator
4 Splinterfright
3 Molten-Tail Masticore
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Mulch
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Memory's Journey
3 Autumn's Veil
2 Armored Skaab
3 Flashfreeze
3 Naturalize
This is a more aggressive take on the deck. If anyone wants my rationale on the card selection in the main and SB, I'm happy to go into detail. In short: you have to run an extremely high density of creatures to validate Skaab Ruinator, Splinterfright, and Dream Twist. Stray too much from that formula and you water down the synergy of that card pairing.
Dream Twist + Mulch work great for my build, but it's all about the density of creatures in the deck. Because 30/60 cards in my deck are creatures, Mulch and Dream Twist do a lot of work for me. They're also cheaper than Forbidden Alchemy, meaning that when you have an opener with Splinterfright in it, you can reliably cast him T3 as a 2/2 at worst. I recognize that Alchemy is a great card, but there's just no room for it in my build. Plus, I can't afford a black splash because the manabase is very demanding in the first 3 turns--especially with 4 Hinterland Harbors (i.e., what if your opener contains Swamp, Harbor?). You need GG to be able to cast things and activate Skinshifter to trample in. You need UU to be able to cast the Ruinator. Things like that.
A lot of my buddies were knocking Dream Twist, saying that it was sub-par, but I honestly feel like it's an Ancestral Recall with flashback at times. What difference does it make if your Skaab Ruinator goes into your hand or your GY? You're paying the same mana cost for it. And after Game 1, when you pull 4 Ancient Grudges into your deck to deal with Swords or Tempered Steel, Dream Twist's similarity to Ancestral Recall becomes all the more pronounced. It's also a good combat trick to use with Splinterfrights against unsuspecting opponents.
4 Hinterland Harbor
9 Island
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Phantasmal Bear
4 Skinshifter
4 Merfolk Looter
4 Viridian Emissary
3 Skaab Ruinator
4 Splinterfright
3 Molten-Tail Masticore
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Mulch
3 Gnaw to the Bone
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Memory's Journey
3 Flashfreeze
3 Autumn's Veil
I think that if you are running 3-4 colors for Unburial Rites/Sun Titan shenanigans, you're running a Solar Flare variant--a dead deck at this point.
Some finer points of the deck:
You have to have a critical mass of creatures to optimize many of the cards here. You'll be surprised by how many times the Chancellor is in your opener, allowing you to start Looting with merfolk or beating down with Skinshifters on T2. Viridian Emissary helps make your Chancellors more than just looting targets, and Molten-Tail Masticore gives additional reach to a UG deck that would normally stall out against an opponent that stabilizes. Mulch + Masticore were made for each other. Skinshifter is all-time MVP, and Phantasmal Bear "gets there;" don't knock it till you've tried it.
A lot of people get distracted by having both Splinterfright and Skaab Ruinator in the same deck. I'll concede that there's a lack of synergy between them on paper, but over 8 matches last Saturday it was never once an issue for me.
The Ancient Grudges in the SB are intended to be played strictly from the GY. There comes a point when you have to recognize the strengths and limitations of a deck, and I don't think Naturalize or Mountains have a place here. Besides, this isn't a control deck--you just need to pop that Wurmcoil or Inkmoth Nexus once, and finish the game with the rest of your damage.
This statement hinges on the type of Kred build being played. If you're running a very aggressive version that runs 4 Memnites, 4 Ornithopters, a few Panic Spellbombs and Gitaxian Probes, the question isn't so much, "Will I have metalcraft to activate my Opal?", but rather, "Is my metalcraft opener going to be made relevant by having an Opal in it?" It happens pretty frequently for me; not all the time, but enough that the Opal is tapping for mana about as frequently as it's getting blown up to make goblins.
To the OP: Based on the fact that your opponent was playing Goblin Wardriver, I'd say that their game 1 opener was very rare for them. Wardriver is just slow, and doesn't really "get there" in the way that Kred needs to in the early turns. If you're running Goblin Wardriver, you're probably running Goblin Chieftan and doing a strong Goblin subtheme in the deck... blurring the lines as to whether you're playing Kred or a goblin deck that happens to use Kuldotha Rebirth.
4 Cystbearer
2 Viridian Corrupter
3 Blightwidow
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Leyline of Vitality
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Mana Leak
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
Your creature suite is more resilient with choices like Cystbearer and Blightwidow, and Leyline/Accorder's Shield make them even more difficult to break through. GSZ adds toolbox ability to ensure you get a Glistener Elf down by turn 2 pretty consistently, and also let you pull out a blightwidow or Viridian Corrupter if flyers or swords are giving you a problem.
The fun part of the deck comes in the form of Twisted Image, which works great with blightwidows and cystbearers who will likely have bigger toughness due to the Leylines and Accorder's Shields already. It also picks off pesky Spellskites and it cantrips, all for U.
I finished 9th, barely missing the cut for top 8. My games were as follows:
Match 1: Esper Control (2-0)
Both games were pretty 1-sided because his deck was just too slow. I won on T4 and T5, respectively. Probably the quote of the tournament (for me) was when he looked at the boardstate (I had a Memnite and a Signal Pest on-board) and mumbled "I can afford to take 2 next turn," before tapping out to play SoWaP and attacking with the Porcelain Legionnaire he had played on T2 (paying 2 life!). I ripped a Goblin Bushwhacker off the top to join the mountain and Signal Pest I had in hand, played my 3rd land and tapped out to play both creatures and swing for 12, bringing him to 4!
Match 2: Pyromancer's Ascension w/ Splinter Exarch SB swap (0-2)
This archetype owns us, I think. He burned everything I had almost as soon as I could play it. Being new to Kred, I did make some play errors that might have swung things differently, but several "for fun" games afterwards convinced me that this matchup is just really bad for us.
Match 3: GW Fauna Shaman/Vengevine/Caw blade package (2-0)
I was on the draw both games in this matchup but was still able to put enough pressure down that he was forced to chump block with his Stoneforge Mystics and Inkmoth Nexus to keep himself above 3 life; he never had the chance to play Batterskull. How sad that Lightning Bolt is rotating; the mere threat of it forces sub-optimal play decisions against a deck this aggressive. Devastating Summons for 4 kept him on the back foot, and (through sheer luck rather than planning) invalidated his potentially-clutch play of Blade Splicer as he was trying to stabilize.
Match 4: UB Tezz Infect (2-1)
This was a very close matchup. Necropede and Phyrexian Crusader are a nightmare. I blew him out game 1; game 2 he stabilized and used Tezz to make monstrous 5/5 infect creatures; and game 3 yielded my second "Great Moments with Kred" play of the tournament. I had a blistering opener with Mox Opal and other stuff to swing big by T3 to take him to 4 life--Panic Spellbomb was amazing here because it allowed me to attack past his lone Necropede. However, my Goblin Guide revealed a Black Sun's Zenith on the top of his library and I had no cards in hand! So he untaps, plays his 3rd land, Zeniths the board away (Necropede trigger kills my Goblin Guide), and fortunately I had a Perilous Myr in this mix to send at his face for 2 damage. Over the next 3 turns I draw land as he infected me with a Plague Myr. He finally draws a Phyrexian Vatmother (from his SB) and threatens to kill me next turn, and I topdeck... Arc Trail! Win!
Match 5: RDW (1-2)
I was 7th at this point, and wanted to ID into top 8, but my opponent needed to play b/c there was a possibility that he'd get shoved down to 9th. So we played. Game 1 I blew him out with Kuldotha Rebirth and a Bushwhacker and a Contested War Zone. Games 2 & 3, he found his Vulshok Refugee and I never found mine. GG.
General Impressions: This is probably the most fun I've had playing Magic in a long time (ever?). I didn't really expect to win very much with this deck, but it has a way of surprising you--and your opponent--with just the right topdeck at just the right time. I did a lot of reading on this forum before heading out with my deck, and I wanted to address a few issues of contention based on my experience. Keep in mind that my points are from the perspective of the most aggressive swarm Kred I could cook up.
Gitaxian Probe--I want the 56-card deck since I'm playing probably the most aggressive version of Kred you can build right now. The value in paying 2 life on T1 to draw into another 0-drop creature is hard to overstate. I understand the "slower" Kred's concern for value, though. I just want to swarm as fast as possible, and the number of cards in the pool is too small to dilute the deck with more burn.
Panic Spellbomb--This card is nuts. It was somewhat filler for me that filled both the role of Artifact and Card Draw. But hey, what do you know--its ability won me at least two games yesterday. Preserving your 1-toughness creatures for that one extra turn is very valuable in a deck with 4 Bushwhackers and 4 Contested War Zones
Ornithopter--Meh. I can see why some posts in this thread rage against Ornithopter. There were some games where I was swinging (desperately) for 1 damage a turn off an Ornithopter pumped by War Zone. It's a 4-of for this deck but I can see it being cut back in other versions.
That's all for now. Hope you enjoyed the report and good luck carrying the torch!
Kuldotha Red
12 Mountain
3 Teetering Peaks
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Guide
4 Signal Pest
2 Devastating Summons
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Kuldotha Rebirth
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Panic Spellbomb
1 Arc Trail
3 Arc Trail
4 Act of Aggression
3 Perilous Myr
3 Vulshok Refugee
2 Trigon of Rage
The mechanics are the same in both of your examples. If you have an activated Inkmoth Nexus, and you cast Phyrexian Metamorph copying it, your Metamorph will copy all of the text of the card it is copying. So it doesn't enter play as a creature at all! It is actually a nonbasic land called "Inkmoth Nexus" with the ability, "1: Inkmoth Nexus becomes a 1/1 Blinkmoth artifact creature with flying and infect until end of turn. It's still a land." Keep in mind that it is also an artifact land, but not because of any text on Inkmoth Nexus--it's an artifact because Phyrexian Metamorph's clone ability stipulates this. It doesn't matter if you've used Tezz's "-1" on the original Nexus, it doesn't matter if the Nexus has been Giant Growthed, and so on. Essentially, you just paid 4 mana to put an extra land into play. If you want to USE that new Inkmoth Nexus, you'll have to pay the activation cost since it enters the battlefield as a nonbasic land.
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Gold Myr
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Blade Splicer
4 Palladium Myr
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Sun Titan
4 Chancellor of the Annex
This is actually not correct with regard to Phyrexian Obliterator. The Obliterator doesn't target, so you'll still have to sacrifice cards to him even if you have Leyline of Sanctity in play.
I still feel that RG is the way to go with this deck, but if you're heart-set on GW, I'll defer to the person who has actually played the deck. Leonin Relic-warder is a sleeper bomb in the meta right now and many people haven't discovered it yet.
That having been said, one possibility is to shoot for an infect build using Priests of Norn, 4 maindeck Viridian Corrupters, and run Slice in Twain b/c it curves out fine after all those 3-drops. The priests will allow you to put a little pressure down while also being great blockers against the aggro in the format. Of course, Sun Titan becomes somewhat lackluster if your plan is infect... I dunno. It just seems pointless to me to go white just for Sun Titan is the only card you can abusively recycle is Sylvok Replica. You'd have to fiddle with it to see what you like; I'm just coughing up ideas. White also gives you access to Salvage Scout, which will give you back those LMC's that get countered/destroyed.
Finally: I also think the whiff on Pyroclasm depends largely on your meta. My locale sees a lot of elves, Kuldotha red, and Tempered Steel decks.