Great changes. Righteous Aura seems like a nice card for the deck when Darien is not around since you have so much life gain.
Since you seem to have a pretty strong focus on life gain, maybe your deck would be able to make good use of Well of Lost Dreams? Conclave Phalanx can also help push the theme, but he's only really good if you already have an army out.
Hi Spinny and welcome to the game. It's hard to give a direct answer to a broad question like that, but the best way to learn how to judge which cards are good or not is to keep playing the game! The intro and duel decks you purchased are a great way to start learning and I would advise you keep them as they are right now and just play them against your friends. This will allow you to see how each deck plays out. The duel deck you bought is especially awesome for playing against a friend because the two decks are balanced to play against one another.
Try your decks against your friends and see how it plays out as is. Then ask yourself what you liked and disliked about the deck? Were there any cool synergies you found that worked really well? If so, maybe you could look into adding more cards into your deck that expand on that synergy! Or maybe you came across some cards that felt underwhelming or didn't do too much for you when played them. You could look into replacing these cards with something else. Maybe try out some of the cards from your booster packs!
Magic is a very large and complex game. There are some great guides out there that can help you learn the basics of understanding power level, how the different colors compare against one another, and how to build a deck from scratch (google can help with that). These resources can help you hit the ground running. The best thing to do as a new player though, in my opinion, is to just keep playing, and experimenting. See a card that looks cool? Throw it in your deck, see how it plays out.
Hope that helps some. If you have any specific questions about the game or deckbuilding suggestions feel free to PM me.
It's more token focused. The idea behind going that route is that the deck can function on it's own without Darien, but can still benefit greatly from having him in play. It also makes it easier to rebuild the army after board wipes. I try to stick with a strong soldier theme, so even though cards like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite would be beastly in the deck, I don't like the flavor/idea of my army being led by a phrexian, although I may reconsider. I try to keep the deck up to date even though I haven't played EDH in a while, so I don't have much feedback on some of the newer card choices like First Response.
Hope this helps! I'm happy to discuss card choices as I'm always looking for ways to improve the deck. If I can help others with their deck in the process all the better!
I passed over Path of Bravery when I initially saw it spoiled. I don’t have as much life gain in my build as you do and I think I would have a hard time getting the +40 life buff active. My deck is more token
focused and I think it would appreciate a pump affect that will always be active. I may consider it though hearing the success you’ve had with it, but it seems like a better fit in your deck.
I don’t have my deck posted on the forums but I’d be happy share it in the thread later tonight.
How often do you find yourself netting tokens with Darien? It seems like the only reliable method you have is with your painlands. Do you ever find yourself in games where you don't have any lands to ping yourself with? If you find yourself needing more sources of self-damage
I run a somewhat cutthroat Darien deck myself and run a similar mana base. Like you, I tend to avoid cards whose only purpose is to damage players (since they become pretty much useless when Darien is not around).However, I’ve found that Staff of Nin and Mana Vault are both awesome with Darien. Staff of Nin is expensive, but card draw is rare for white and the ability to get a free draw and ping anything for 1 damage (including yourself) for free for the rest of the game is definitely worth the 6 mana from my experience. And Mana vault is just amazing at helping you ramp into Darien faster whilst also making tokens for you.
Also, Sivvi's Valor is a nasty combat trick that no one will see coming. This card can easily swing the game in your favor.
Sphinx's Tutelage. You're gonna want that when it comes out in July.
I'm not sure how I was so quick to gloss over this. Tutelage is absolutely bonkers in the deck. It goes much further than Memory Erosion ever could. Definitely swapping this in
Quote from gxmiter »
Phyrexian Metamorph can help abuse ETB effects and is best friends with Kiri-Onna (cast Kiri-Onna, bounce x thing, cast Metamorph, bounce Kiri-Onna, cast Kiri-Onna, bounce x thing, Metamorph returns to your hand). You could also use some generic blue goodstuff like Palinchron and Deadeye Navigator, which is itself a spirit.
So I misread your suggestion initially. Phyrexian Metamoprh won't work as well as I would like to in this deck because it's not a spirit when you cast it. I came across Shapesharer however, which seems to fill a similar roll as metamorph, but also counts as a spirit, so I'm trying it out.[/Quote]
I did a lot of fine tuning to the deck. Got rid of a lot of the more underwhelming spirit/arcane cards and focused more on a creature base that cares about cards being recast or entering the battlefield. I also added a few more low drop creatures to help with the early game. The deck plays a lot smoother now and is pretty fun to pilot! I've updated the deck and description in my original post. I've playtested against a few decks and feel pretty happy with some of the bounce engines in the deck, though I have not had an opportunity to test every card in the deck. I'll continue to update and refine the deck for anyone that's interested.
The basic idea is to burn your opponent to the face with some of the early decision making cards (i.e. vexing devil, skullscorch, etc). Against most decks, they will probably pay the life. The deck is packed with a plethora of burn cards, so, along with the decision cards, it's easy to get our opponent under 10 life. From there, we just keep our opponent's life total under pressure. Against burn, it becomes much harder for the opponent to pay the alternate life cost once they are under 10 life. Dash Hopes basically becomes a counter spell, Skullscorch becomes Hymn to Tourach, etc. If we find these effects are not useful for us later game, we have cards like Gathan Raiders and Jaya Ballard, Task Mage to pitch them to. There are also a couple of 1 ofs to help us bring down those last few life points from our opponent.
A few years ago I took this deck to a modern tournament (back when Pod was legal) and didn't do so well. In my defense, I made a lot of play mistakes as I didn't really know how to play against certain cards/decks. Creature based decks I seemed to do ok against but it was combo that gave this deck the most trouble.
I took a small break for a while and recently got back into magic. The release of Nyx-Fleece Ram compelled me to take another stab at this. This card just seems perfect for the deck; I believe it could be the push the deck needs to make it resilient against creature decks and a possible rogue contender in the ever-growing modern deck base. Here's what I have at the moment:
The general idea is to survive long enough until you can contain the board, then have your opponent locked down from playing any creatures with Searing Meditation. From there, you can just start shocking your opponent to the face with Searing Meditation or swing in with a large Ajani's Pridemate. Card choices are explained below:
Main wincons
Searing Meditation - What the deck is built around. Doesn't take too much work to get online, just need some mana. Recurrable damange to keep creatures off the board and hit our opponent with lethal once the board is under control. I compare it to Punishing Fire, and we all know how good that card was...
Ajani's Pridemate - An excellent beater, he's like a better goyf in this deck. You can play him early if you have an aggressive hand or you can plop him down late game and watch the counters pile on like crazy.
Well of Lost Dreams - Not a direct wincon, but it can help us draw into our wincon, an answer, or just huge card advantage
Removal/Control
Lightning Helix - Can be used aggressively in conjunction with Ajani's Pridemate in the early game. Also useful late game when we need a lifegain trigger for any of our wincons above, though most of the time I find I don't really need the lightning helixs. There is also the unfortunate matter that helix is out of range of some of modern's staples like Deceiver Exarch and Spellskite. Maybe I should consider swapping this out for something else?
Recumbant Bliss - Pacifism may not be the strongest removal in the format, but the life gain sets us up nicely with our wincons later on and at the end of the day it does what it needs to against some of modern's best beaters. With all the other cards in the deck, it's not uncommon to gain 4-5 life on each of your upkeeps, making it difficult for creature decks to race against us. Can probably be sideboaraded out when necessary
Oblivion Ring - The deck doesn't have any other real answers to non-creature threats so this seems necessary.
Ajani Vengeant - Honestly, I've always just had this guy in here just because. Seems to help with the control aspect, but maybe I could be running something better in this slot?
Lifegain/Other
Nyx-Fleece Ram - An excellent two drop that will stop most creatures in their track, buying us the time we need to get setup. The lifegain is also incredibly relevant.
Sun Droplet] - Another card to help slow down aggressive decks. Note that it gains us 1 life on each UPKEEP. If it's dry, we can use Battlefield Forge to damage ourselves and put more counters on. While it does help protect us and gain life, it's not as efficient as Nyx-Fleece Ram and doesn't really have much use outside of this role. This is another card that I've been considering swapping out (though maybe I could keep it as a 1 or 2 of)
Ghost-Lit Redeemer - I like having this in here as a 1 of just incase. It's a nice little mana-sink if you happen to have it in play. The channel ability is also nice if you really need a surprise lifegain trigger. Could also consider removing this out, but if I end up swapping out Lightning Helix and/or Sun Droplet for something else then I'd probably be more inclined to keep this in the deck
The Sideboard
The sideboard I just threw together tbh. Just things that I think could help against certain match ups but I didn't put too much thought into it. May consider mainboarding some or all of the paths.
The deck is a lot of fun to pilot and I think it's resilient enough to stand against creature based decks. However, I feel it may struggle against combo-y based decks like Splintertwin, urzatron, bloom, etc. I'm not sure what changes I could/should make, if any. I've also considered moving the deck in another direction, possibly midrange with green splash for goyf, Kitchen Finks and Archangel of Thune, but I'm not sure if that would be more effective.
Thoughts? Opinions? I may try taking this to a local modern event sometime just to see how it plays out.
Phyrexian Metamorph can help abuse ETB effects and is best friends with Kiri-Onna (cast Kiri-Onna, bounce x thing, cast Metamorph, bounce Kiri-Onna, cast Kiri-Onna, bounce x thing, Metamorph returns to your hand). You could also use some generic blue goodstuff like Palinchron and Deadeye Navigator, which is itself a spirit.
That's a good point. I never considered Metamorph though I don't know if I have enough ETB effects to warrant running him. I'll put him in the maybe list for now. Palinchron also seems good, but I don't think I can abuse him just yet to generate infinite mana (unless I have Caged Sun out. Also on the maybe list. DeadEye Navigator I'm currently running. I feel he has the same problem as the other two suggestions in that there is not enough in the deck to currently abuse him with, but he still provides protection in the form of blink and he is a spirit. If he wasn't a spirit I wouldn't be running him. It's too bad palinchron isn't a spirit because I would be running him for sure otherwise.
I also just realized that Kira has anti-synergy with the deck. It protects my creatures, but I can't target my own creatures for bouncing shenanigans, so out it goes. Replacing it with Temple Bell since the deck likes card draw.
Sphinx's Tutelage. You're gonna want that when it comes out in July. I think you can leave Memory Erosion. People will tend to get annoyed by it and waste a removal on it, meaning they won't spend removal on something not so annoying. Also, it's a good deterrent against those who play small spells or storm decks.
hmm, I'll consider the tutelage. At the moment I dont' have too many slots open and I don't want to commit too many slots to just mill. Maybe might consider replacing the Memory Erosion with it? Tutelage seems like it could be better once the game gets going but I don't think i could abuse it as well as some other blue decks could.
As for what to remove, I suggest removing the following:
Keiga, the Tide Star
Patron of the Moon
Meishing, the Mind Cage
Perilous Vault
Perilous Vault is too good to pass up. I like having a couple of wrath effects in each deck just in case. Keiga is just good, even if we don't have a way to really abuse him, so I'll keep him for now. Patron is probably a win more card; I could see myself removing it from the deck at one point. Meishin the Mind cage seems really good protection for the deck since my hand is going to be pretty full most of the time (hopefully). Although it's only good for late game and I imagine it puts a big target on my head since it slows the game down for everyone, so that's another one I may consider removing.
I went through my deck and removed some of the more underwhelming cards to make room for a few more mana rocks. Came across Equilibrium which seems perfect for the deck so I'm throwing it in as well. Updated the deck in my original post with a change log as well as some cards I'm possibly thinking of taking out for future suggestions/changes. Curve seems to be a bit smoother now with 27 spells costing CMC 4 or greater. I'll try and test it out soon and see how it plays against some actual decks and post some updates
Thanks Kirby. I agree on both of your main view points (more mana and more early game presence/protection).
I just realized I don’t have Sapphire Medallion in the list so I’ll definitely need to find a spot for it in there. Thran dynamo seems like another good one. With those two cards that would put me at 10 cards that accelerate my mana. I think that will be sufficient enough for what I’m trying to accomplish. I like Extraplanar Lens but it’s such a risk in the early game and I don’t want too much of my mana ramp to be late game (like Patron of the Moon).
As for the early game I do have a few cards to help protect me. Shapestealer and Drift of Phantasms work as walls. Solemn Simulacrum is a great chump blocker. Propaganda and Web of Inertia to deter/stop attacks. And some bounce if I need to buy some time. A few more early game cards would be nice so maybe I’ll consider throwing in another wall or two. I'd like to try and keep the deck as tribal as possible however (I should have mentioned it's tribal themed, sorry)
Really not sure what to take out here. I’m leaning towards the cards that just mill (Memory Erosion maybe?), but they seem very strong for what little mana I have to invest in them. Any suggestions?
Yeah, mill is the main wincon. I'm trying to avoid too many mill cards because they don't do anything else to help you. Keening Stone seems too mana intensive and Traumatize seems to get worse as the game goes on.
I completely forgot about Cloudstone Curio. I definitely like how it makes my creatures recastable, but it doesn't have much utility outside of that. I'll consider putting it in but I think I may need more creatures to put it to good use. The other cards like Nephalia, reflector, and closet don't work very well with my deck because I don't have too many ETB effects and it doesn't work with Cloudhoof's ability.
Mulldrifter seems like another good choice. I'll see if I can fit that in somewhere.
Looking around the interwebs I haven’t seen many decks built around Cloudhoof Kirin, but the ones I have seen just seem to stuff as many spirit and arcane spells as they can into the deck. I can understand this approach. After all, Cloudhoof requires that you CAST the spell, and it only triggers off of spirit and arcane spells, so naturally it makes sense to include as many of these spells as you can. So many of these cards seem very underwhelming for EDH/commander though, and I feel that by dedicating so many card slots to these underwhelming spells it really brings down the power level and play-ability of the deck. So I thought I'd try a different approach. This is what I currently have:
The main strategy is to play only the good spirits/arcane spells (i.e. spells that protect me, gain card advantage, etc) and utilize bounce and recursion to recast those spells when I have Cloudhoof Kirin in play. The repeatable bounce can be used in my favor as well as against my opponent's permanents. I've done some extensive goldfishing (and a few casual matches) and I've observed a few things about the deck:
- The deck is mana-hungry: Re-casting spells can get expensive. Mana rocks and other artifacts that make my cards cheaper to cast help alleviate the stress on my mana base and allow me to cast more spells in one turn.
- The deck needs cards: We need a good board state of bounceable creatures and an engine to bounce them with. There are a few ways to accomplish this in the deck, but in order to ensure that we always have a way, card draw is required. Since we're trying to mill the opponent anyway, I figured the best way to accomplish this would be with group draw cards such as Howling Mind and Jace Beleren. Not only can the group draw give us a slight political tip in our favor, but it also actually helps us with milling our opponent's decks faster.
- The deck needs incentive to recast: One of the early things I discovered from playtesting is that milling the opponent wasn't incentive enough to justify recasting my spells. I addressed this by adding more cards that care about casting that have more affect on the game. For example, Callow Jushi can help us counter spells, Solemn Simulacrum can help us ramp, Sire of the Storm can draw us cards, etc.
The deck is obviously not tier 1, but I wanted to create something that was fun to play while being able to hold it's own against other decks. I'm always looking to improve my decks and make them the best that they can be, so I would love to hear your comments or suggestions or discuss card choices.
Anvil of Bogardan seems like a great card for this deck should you consider using the owl and maiden as your win conditions. You can also include [CARD]Black Vise] or maybe replace the owl with it since the owl will only do 4 damage per turn
This deck wants bounce spells.Keeps the pressure off of you and in their hand. More cards in their hands = more damage. Waterfront bouncer is pretty good in this deck. Turbulent Dreams is stupid good. Cyclonic Rift is also nice.
Someone suggested Arcane Laboratory above. This seems like a nice fit for the deck as it really slows the opponent down and prevents them from emptying their hand. With Forbid you pretty much have a hard lock.
Ivory Tower is a really nice life gain source should you find yourself needing it.
I'm also running a Kami deck but I'm focused more on mill. Though after making these suggestions I'm seriously debating switching over my wincon.
Since you seem to have a pretty strong focus on life gain, maybe your deck would be able to make good use of Well of Lost Dreams?
Conclave Phalanx can also help push the theme, but he's only really good if you already have an army out.
Try your decks against your friends and see how it plays out as is. Then ask yourself what you liked and disliked about the deck? Were there any cool synergies you found that worked really well? If so, maybe you could look into adding more cards into your deck that expand on that synergy! Or maybe you came across some cards that felt underwhelming or didn't do too much for you when played them. You could look into replacing these cards with something else. Maybe try out some of the cards from your booster packs!
Magic is a very large and complex game. There are some great guides out there that can help you learn the basics of understanding power level, how the different colors compare against one another, and how to build a deck from scratch (google can help with that). These resources can help you hit the ground running. The best thing to do as a new player though, in my opinion, is to just keep playing, and experimenting. See a card that looks cool? Throw it in your deck, see how it plays out.
Hope that helps some. If you have any specific questions about the game or deckbuilding suggestions feel free to PM me.
-Dan
Decklist:
It's more token focused. The idea behind going that route is that the deck can function on it's own without Darien, but can still benefit greatly from having him in play. It also makes it easier to rebuild the army after board wipes. I try to stick with a strong soldier theme, so even though cards like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite would be beastly in the deck, I don't like the flavor/idea of my army being led by a phrexian, although I may reconsider. I try to keep the deck up to date even though I haven't played EDH in a while, so I don't have much feedback on some of the newer card choices like First Response.
Hope this helps! I'm happy to discuss card choices as I'm always looking for ways to improve the deck. If I can help others with their deck in the process all the better!
focused and I think it would appreciate a pump affect that will always be active. I may consider it though hearing the success you’ve had with it, but it seems like a better fit in your deck.
I don’t have my deck posted on the forums but I’d be happy share it in the thread later tonight.
I run a somewhat cutthroat Darien deck myself and run a similar mana base. Like you, I tend to avoid cards whose only purpose is to damage players (since they become pretty much useless when Darien is not around).However, I’ve found that Staff of Nin and Mana Vault are both awesome with Darien. Staff of Nin is expensive, but card draw is rare for white and the ability to get a free draw and ping anything for 1 damage (including yourself) for free for the rest of the game is definitely worth the 6 mana from my experience. And Mana vault is just amazing at helping you ramp into Darien faster whilst also making tokens for you.
Also, Sivvi's Valor is a nasty combat trick that no one will see coming. This card can easily swing the game in your favor.
I'm not sure how I was so quick to gloss over this. Tutelage is absolutely bonkers in the deck. It goes much further than Memory Erosion ever could. Definitely swapping this in
So I misread your suggestion initially. Phyrexian Metamoprh won't work as well as I would like to in this deck because it's not a spirit when you cast it. I came across Shapesharer however, which seems to fill a similar roll as metamorph, but also counts as a spirit, so I'm trying it out.[/Quote]
I did a lot of fine tuning to the deck. Got rid of a lot of the more underwhelming spirit/arcane cards and focused more on a creature base that cares about cards being recast or entering the battlefield. I also added a few more low drop creatures to help with the early game. The deck plays a lot smoother now and is pretty fun to pilot! I've updated the deck and description in my original post. I've playtested against a few decks and feel pretty happy with some of the bounce engines in the deck, though I have not had an opportunity to test every card in the deck. I'll continue to update and refine the deck for anyone that's interested.
Did some drafting and goldfishing; here's what I have at the moment:
1x Grim Lavamancer
2x Gathan Raiders
2x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4x Vexing Devil
//Instants [15]
1x Thunderous Wrath
3x Dash Hopes
3x Kolaghan's Command
4x LightningBolt
4x Magma Jet
1x Bump in the Night
4x Skullscorch
4x Blightning
4x Browbeat
//Land [23]
4x Blood Crypt
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Graven Cairns
6x Mountain
5x Swamp
The basic idea is to burn your opponent to the face with some of the early decision making cards (i.e. vexing devil, skullscorch, etc). Against most decks, they will probably pay the life. The deck is packed with a plethora of burn cards, so, along with the decision cards, it's easy to get our opponent under 10 life. From there, we just keep our opponent's life total under pressure. Against burn, it becomes much harder for the opponent to pay the alternate life cost once they are under 10 life. Dash Hopes basically becomes a counter spell, Skullscorch becomes Hymn to Tourach, etc. If we find these effects are not useful for us later game, we have cards like Gathan Raiders and Jaya Ballard, Task Mage to pitch them to. There are also a couple of 1 ofs to help us bring down those last few life points from our opponent.
A few years ago I took this deck to a modern tournament (back when Pod was legal) and didn't do so well. In my defense, I made a lot of play mistakes as I didn't really know how to play against certain cards/decks. Creature based decks I seemed to do ok against but it was combo that gave this deck the most trouble.
I took a small break for a while and recently got back into magic. The release of Nyx-Fleece Ram compelled me to take another stab at this. This card just seems perfect for the deck; I believe it could be the push the deck needs to make it resilient against creature decks and a possible rogue contender in the ever-growing modern deck base. Here's what I have at the moment:
1x Ghost-Lit Redeemer
4x Ajani's Pridemate
4x Nyx-Fleece Ram
//Artifacts [11]
4x Sun Droplet
4x Pristine Talisman
2x Well of Lost Dreams
//Enchantments [10]
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Recumbent Bliss
4x Searing Meditation
2x Ajani Vengeant
//Instants[4]
4x Lightning Helix
//Lands [25]
3x Rugged Prairie
4x Clifftop Retreat
4x Battlefield Forge
4x Kabira Crossroads
3x Mountains
7x Plains
4x Path to Exile
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Disenchant
4x Kor Firewalker
2x Celestial Purge
2x Blood Moon
The general idea is to survive long enough until you can contain the board, then have your opponent locked down from playing any creatures with Searing Meditation. From there, you can just start shocking your opponent to the face with Searing Meditation or swing in with a large Ajani's Pridemate. Card choices are explained below:
Main wincons
Searing Meditation - What the deck is built around. Doesn't take too much work to get online, just need some mana. Recurrable damange to keep creatures off the board and hit our opponent with lethal once the board is under control. I compare it to Punishing Fire, and we all know how good that card was...
Ajani's Pridemate - An excellent beater, he's like a better goyf in this deck. You can play him early if you have an aggressive hand or you can plop him down late game and watch the counters pile on like crazy.
Well of Lost Dreams - Not a direct wincon, but it can help us draw into our wincon, an answer, or just huge card advantage
Removal/Control
Lightning Helix - Can be used aggressively in conjunction with Ajani's Pridemate in the early game. Also useful late game when we need a lifegain trigger for any of our wincons above, though most of the time I find I don't really need the lightning helixs. There is also the unfortunate matter that helix is out of range of some of modern's staples like Deceiver Exarch and Spellskite. Maybe I should consider swapping this out for something else?
Recumbant Bliss - Pacifism may not be the strongest removal in the format, but the life gain sets us up nicely with our wincons later on and at the end of the day it does what it needs to against some of modern's best beaters. With all the other cards in the deck, it's not uncommon to gain 4-5 life on each of your upkeeps, making it difficult for creature decks to race against us. Can probably be sideboaraded out when necessary
Oblivion Ring - The deck doesn't have any other real answers to non-creature threats so this seems necessary.
Ajani Vengeant - Honestly, I've always just had this guy in here just because. Seems to help with the control aspect, but maybe I could be running something better in this slot?
Lifegain/Other
Nyx-Fleece Ram - An excellent two drop that will stop most creatures in their track, buying us the time we need to get setup. The lifegain is also incredibly relevant.
Sun Droplet] - Another card to help slow down aggressive decks. Note that it gains us 1 life on each UPKEEP. If it's dry, we can use Battlefield Forge to damage ourselves and put more counters on. While it does help protect us and gain life, it's not as efficient as Nyx-Fleece Ram and doesn't really have much use outside of this role. This is another card that I've been considering swapping out (though maybe I could keep it as a 1 or 2 of)
Pristine Talisman - Searing Meditation and Well of Lost Dreams are both mana intensive, so the mana accel helps. With either of these cards out, it essential reads: tap, pay 1, shock something OR tap, draw a card.
Ghost-Lit Redeemer - I like having this in here as a 1 of just incase. It's a nice little mana-sink if you happen to have it in play. The channel ability is also nice if you really need a surprise lifegain trigger. Could also consider removing this out, but if I end up swapping out Lightning Helix and/or Sun Droplet for something else then I'd probably be more inclined to keep this in the deck
The Sideboard
The sideboard I just threw together tbh. Just things that I think could help against certain match ups but I didn't put too much thought into it. May consider mainboarding some or all of the paths.
The deck is a lot of fun to pilot and I think it's resilient enough to stand against creature based decks. However, I feel it may struggle against combo-y based decks like Splintertwin, urzatron, bloom, etc. I'm not sure what changes I could/should make, if any. I've also considered moving the deck in another direction, possibly midrange with green splash for goyf, Kitchen Finks and Archangel of Thune, but I'm not sure if that would be more effective.
Thoughts? Opinions? I may try taking this to a local modern event sometime just to see how it plays out.
Mishra's Bauble is the surprise one for me though. I remember this card always being 25, 50 cents at most...
That's a good point. I never considered Metamorph though I don't know if I have enough ETB effects to warrant running him. I'll put him in the maybe list for now. Palinchron also seems good, but I don't think I can abuse him just yet to generate infinite mana (unless I have Caged Sun out. Also on the maybe list. DeadEye Navigator I'm currently running. I feel he has the same problem as the other two suggestions in that there is not enough in the deck to currently abuse him with, but he still provides protection in the form of blink and he is a spirit. If he wasn't a spirit I wouldn't be running him. It's too bad palinchron isn't a spirit because I would be running him for sure otherwise.
I also just realized that Kira has anti-synergy with the deck. It protects my creatures, but I can't target my own creatures for bouncing shenanigans, so out it goes. Replacing it with Temple Bell since the deck likes card draw.
hmm, I'll consider the tutelage. At the moment I dont' have too many slots open and I don't want to commit too many slots to just mill. Maybe might consider replacing the Memory Erosion with it? Tutelage seems like it could be better once the game gets going but I don't think i could abuse it as well as some other blue decks could.
Perilous Vault is too good to pass up. I like having a couple of wrath effects in each deck just in case. Keiga is just good, even if we don't have a way to really abuse him, so I'll keep him for now. Patron is probably a win more card; I could see myself removing it from the deck at one point. Meishin the Mind cage seems really good protection for the deck since my hand is going to be pretty full most of the time (hopefully). Although it's only good for late game and I imagine it puts a big target on my head since it slows the game down for everyone, so that's another one I may consider removing.
I went through my deck and removed some of the more underwhelming cards to make room for a few more mana rocks. Came across Equilibrium which seems perfect for the deck so I'm throwing it in as well. Updated the deck in my original post with a change log as well as some cards I'm possibly thinking of taking out for future suggestions/changes. Curve seems to be a bit smoother now with 27 spells costing CMC 4 or greater. I'll try and test it out soon and see how it plays against some actual decks and post some updates
I just realized I don’t have Sapphire Medallion in the list so I’ll definitely need to find a spot for it in there. Thran dynamo seems like another good one. With those two cards that would put me at 10 cards that accelerate my mana. I think that will be sufficient enough for what I’m trying to accomplish. I like Extraplanar Lens but it’s such a risk in the early game and I don’t want too much of my mana ramp to be late game (like Patron of the Moon).
As for the early game I do have a few cards to help protect me. Shapestealer and Drift of Phantasms work as walls. Solemn Simulacrum is a great chump blocker. Propaganda and Web of Inertia to deter/stop attacks. And some bounce if I need to buy some time. A few more early game cards would be nice so maybe I’ll consider throwing in another wall or two. I'd like to try and keep the deck as tribal as possible however (I should have mentioned it's tribal themed, sorry)
Really not sure what to take out here. I’m leaning towards the cards that just mill (Memory Erosion maybe?), but they seem very strong for what little mana I have to invest in them. Any suggestions?
I completely forgot about Cloudstone Curio. I definitely like how it makes my creatures recastable, but it doesn't have much utility outside of that. I'll consider putting it in but I think I may need more creatures to put it to good use. The other cards like Nephalia, reflector, and closet don't work very well with my deck because I don't have too many ETB effects and it doesn't work with Cloudhoof's ability.
Mulldrifter seems like another good choice. I'll see if I can fit that in somewhere.
Thanks for the suggestions!
-Dan
Codex Shredder - Mill is lacking, but great for bringing cards back to my hand, especially with Academy Ruins.
Recall - recursion
Voidmage Husher - Good ETB effect
Words of Wind - Seems like a good fit for the deck, I just dont like how the opponent gets to choose a permanent to return to their hand.
Mistform Warchief - I like how he makes even my non-spirit creatures easier to re-cast.
Thran Dynamo - Another ramp consideration
Gilded Lotus - Another ramp consideration
Dismiss into Dream - nice permanent removal with all of our bounce spells
Jace, the Mindsculptor - good card is good
Duplicate - Removal that plays well with the recasting theme of the deck
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - Mostly for his -X option to exile the board.
Artificial Evolution - Janky, but I like the idea of changing my general's ability to "elemental" and recasting MullDrifter
Baku Altar - underwhelming when you compare to something like Bitterblossom. Still...might be nice to have some chump blockers from time to time.
Customs Depot - Help me filter through my deck
Mystic Remora - more card draw
Shrine of Piercing Vision - help me filter through my deck
Heidar, Rimewind Master - Repeatable bounce
Temporal Adept - Repeatable bounce
Vedalken Mastermind - Repeatable bounce for my guys
Cloudstone Curio - repeatable bounce for my guys
Elixir of Immortality - tutorable trinket, good for long games
Psychic Spiral eh. can be good in some scenarios. probably too narrow.
Looking around the interwebs I haven’t seen many decks built around Cloudhoof Kirin, but the ones I have seen just seem to stuff as many spirit and arcane spells as they can into the deck. I can understand this approach. After all, Cloudhoof requires that you CAST the spell, and it only triggers off of spirit and arcane spells, so naturally it makes sense to include as many of these spells as you can. So many of these cards seem very underwhelming for EDH/commander though, and I feel that by dedicating so many card slots to these underwhelming spells it really brings down the power level and play-ability of the deck. So I thought I'd try a different approach. This is what I currently have:
1x Cloudhoof Kirin
//Creatures [27]
1x Waterfront Bouncer
1x Kaijin of the Vanishing Touch
1x Kami of the Crescent Moon
1x Shape Stealer
1x Drift of Phantasms
1x Lantern Spirit
1x Trinket Mage
1x Callow Jushi
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Tower Geist
1x Tradewind Rider
1x Soulsworn Spirit
1x Chameleon Spirit
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Dungeon Geists
1x Dreamborn Muse
1x Sakashima the Imposter
1x Rushing-Tide Zubera
1x Kiri-Onna
1x Quillmane Baku
1x Sturmgeist
1x Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar
1x Keiga, the Tide Star
1x Sire of the Storm
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Myojin of Seeing Winds
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Altar of the Brood
1x Lantern of Insight
1x Sol Ring
1x Howling Mine
1x Sapphire Medallion
1x Thought Vessel
1x Extraplanar Lens
1x Worn Powerstone
1x Crystal Shard
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Urza's Incubator
1x Temple Bell
1x Perilous Vault
1x Paradise Plume
1x Jester's Cap
1x Door of Destinies
1x Crumbling Sanctuary
1x Caged Sun
//Enchantments [7]
1x Propaganda
1x Rhystic Study
1x Sphinx's Tutelage
1x Equilibrium
1x Dictate of Kruphix
1x Well of Ideas
1x Omniscience
1x Jace Beleren
1x Tamiyo, the Moon sage
//Instants and Sorceries [7]
1x Dissipate
1x Petals of Insight
1x Disrupting Shoal
1x Curse of the Swine
//Land [39]
1x Thawing Glaciers
1x Terrain Generator
1x Lonely Sandbar
1x Temple of the False God
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Academy Ruins
1x Magosi of the Waterveil
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Tolaria West
30x Island
Other list
Cards sorted by primary functionality
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Sol Ring
1x Sapphire Medallion
1x Thought Vessel
1x Worn Powerstone
1x Urza's Incubator
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Paradise Plume
1x Extraplanar Lens
1x Caged Sun
1x Omniscience
1x Temple of the False God
1x Terrain Generator
//Draw
1x Howling Mine
1x Kami of the Crescent Moon
1x Temple Bell
1x Dictate of Kruphix
1x Jace Beleren
1x Well of Ideas
1x Rhystic Study
1x Tower Geist
1x Petals of Insight
1x Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar
1x Sire of the Storm
1x Myojin of Seeing Winds
1x Tolaria West
//Bouncers
1x Waterfront Bouncer
1x Equilibrium
1x Crystal Shard
1x Kiri-Onna
1x Quillmake Baku
1x Tradewind Rider
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Deadeye Navigator (blinker)
1x Tidespout Tyrant
//Removal/Control
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Perilous Vault
1x Curse of the Swine
1x Dissipate
1x Callow Jushi
1x Disrupting Shoal
1x Dungeon Geists
1x Soulsworn Spirit
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
//Defense
1x Shape Stealer
1x Drift of Phantasms
1x Kaijin of the Vanishing Touch
1x Rushing-Tide Zubera
//Deck control
1x Lantern of Insight
1x Altar of the Brood
1x Sphinx's Tutelage
1x Dreamborn Muse
1x Crumbling Sanctuary
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Jester's Cap
//Misc
1x Lantern Spirit
1x Chameleon Spirit
1x Sakashima the Imposter
1x Door of Destinies
1x Sturmgeist
1x Keiga, the Tide Star
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Lonely Sandbar
1x Academy Ruins
1x Magosi, the Waterveil
1x Reliquary Tower
1x thawing glacier
Spirit/Arcane Cards
Cast Triggers
ETB Triggers
Exile effects
The deck is obviously not tier 1, but I wanted to create something that was fun to play while being able to hold it's own against other decks. I'm always looking to improve my decks and make them the best that they can be, so I would love to hear your comments or suggestions or discuss card choices.
This deck wants bounce spells.Keeps the pressure off of you and in their hand. More cards in their hands = more damage. Waterfront bouncer is pretty good in this deck. Turbulent Dreams is stupid good. Cyclonic Rift is also nice.
Someone suggested Arcane Laboratory above. This seems like a nice fit for the deck as it really slows the opponent down and prevents them from emptying their hand. With Forbid you pretty much have a hard lock.
Ivory Tower is a really nice life gain source should you find yourself needing it.
I'm also running a Kami deck but I'm focused more on mill. Though after making these suggestions I'm seriously debating switching over my wincon.