I'd rather have the card I cut for ts in deckbuilding than the ts stuck in my hand when I need the counter. What do you cut to make room for your scours?
I don't think it's that hard of a matchup. Cut your Stifles and your Snares, and run dismembers main. When they go to attack with Grisel, just dismember him and laugh when they gain two life. Either your block w/ Delver or your bolt can finish him off or force your opponent to pay 7. Your burn is sweet when they get on low life because of Gris and Tombs. From the board, I'd be bringing in 2-3 Extraction, 2 Pierce, 3 Pyroblast. Extraction is sweet against intuition / emrakul's trigger / Gris in the yard.
I'd just like to remind everyone, Ponder, Brainstorm, and Thought Scour are anti tempo cards. This is why Merfolk does not run brainstorm or ponder. We run Brainstorm and Ponder because they really are that good, and this deck is able to abuse Brainstorm better than any other deck in the format. 1 mana represents 50-100% of your turn's output, and more often than not you'll be digging in response to something wishing it was a real card you could use, and then cracking your fetch so you can cast whatever you draw if you draw what you need. This is bad. Delver is there for aggro, goyf is good for locking up board positions and racing combo, and Mongoose is there to beat control. You're really in no rush to be control with mongeese, just wear them away with your 3/3. You don't need to bum rush them and cast scours. More often than not, you won't have mongoose in your opening hand, but that's fine. Just dig for it, get it, and by the time you've got it, you should have 7 cards in your graveyard. Along this line of logic, the one where you're digging for mongoose because you're not bad and didn't mul into oblivion trying to find it, you'd rather have 2 preordain than 2 Thought Scour. Why do we not run preordain? Because it's anti tempo and makes your Brainstorms slightly worse. Run Brainstorm, run Ponder. Do not run Thought Scour.
On harness, two seems like the right number. Once they see it Maverick will probs board back in Pridemages, in which case you catch them red handed with Submerge. I like it, diversified hate is good hate
@ Joshua
I run Pyroblast in person, but type REB because it's faster to type - don't worry I'm well aware of the corner case senario; Mongoose thresh tricks with wastelands and stuff are right up my alley for sly things to do.
Three mana is much more than two, I agree. I feel like 2 Grudge is too much though still, Pierce deals with hardcaste equips quite well, but I might be missing something.
My problem with 3 Pyroblast is that in almost every matchup I want to bring it in, I also want to have my maximum number of Pierces available as well, and on top of that I might be bringing in artifact hate or a surgical or two. I might see a reverse split of Pierce and Pyro (2-3) but I'm really quite undecided.
Sulfer Elemental - This card just seems so limited in application. Sure, it comes in against Lingering Souls, Maverick, and some other white decks, but the problem is that's it. Against Lingering Souls, I'd probably rather Surgical is out of their deck than have them go for a swords on my Elemental and then continue to roll out souls. That's my problem with it at least. Also, like you said, 3 mana is a lot, and a sideboard spot is even more. Again, I could be missing something, in which case I'd love for you to prove me wrong.
I agree with you 1 crypt 2 surgical
@ Dominus, you bring up a very very good point. With Dismember main, Harness is probably worth a 2-2 or 3-1 split in favor of submerge. I also agree that we need force of will to beat Maverick. Considering we lose of a resolved and protected knight, you have to consider it similar to them resolving natural order, or something of that nature. Basically, don't let it happen.
Edit: Rethinking my position on spierce. When games go long, the opponent can often times blank them by just searching basics and paying, making is significantly less reliable as a way to consistently beat Jace. Perhaps two is the correct number after all.
Edit: # 2 as soon as I took out the 3rd Spierce for 3 Pyro, I realized Krosan was out of place. I promptly traded it for a grudge.
Main deck has 2 Dismember and 1 fire//ice
SB: 2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
2 Surgical
1 Crypt
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Spierce
3 Pyroblast
1 rough/ tumble
I don't really like dismember in the sideboard, but then again I play it MD.
I've come to the conclusion that the correct number of counterspells in the sideboard is 4-5. If 5, what split of Pierce / REB do you suggest? My gut tells me Pierce, but reb has a bit going for it. I ending up writing up most of the matchups on paper, and ran through some quick percentages. A large majority of matchups where pierce if in, reb is in also. You want about 2.5 Pierces in your sideboard, and 2.5 REBs. I calculated this BEFORE I took into account bringing in surgicals / artfact hate / krosan grip, etc, so the numbers will be a bit high for reb/pierces. I'm designing my sideboard for an open meta where just about anything can show up (yeah, it's a strange shop, literally anything can show up). On one hand, I think 2 REB 3 Pierce is probably right, on the other, 2 Reb and 2 Pierce will always be coming in, and never will we have too many cards to bring in with the 4 counterspell configuration.
Edit: Just ran through some more numbers on Submerge, and I'm considering dropping down to 3 because I run dismembers maindeck; and 1 rough//tumble sideboard.
Here's the current version of my sideboard
1 rough/ tumble
1 k grip
1 grudge
2 reb
3 pierce
4 subermerge
3 surgical
Regarding this, I think Krosan is the weakest link here. It's good against CB decks, but REB counters CB as well... still undecided. One plus for grip is that it's a great answer to batterskull.
4 Submerge is interesting, but I'm very tempted to go down to three to fit in another rough/tumble or maybe a sulfur elemental.
Edit #2: Thinking about it more, K. Grip makes more sense when you think of it as instead of grudge rather than instead of Red Blast.
What do you guys take out vs maverick?
Thoughts welcome.
So back on dismember: it being instant is quite relevant; you can hold mana on. Their turn to counter something and then if they don't do anything you want to counter get rid of their guy.
I find that Loam is actually really useful as a one of in many many fair matchups. It helps keep your situational counters live, and turns Brainstorm into recall.
EDIT: I too am thinking of cutting loam actually. It's the same as getting a land on your draw, and your brainstorms are already awesome in this deck. Probably something I'm going to cut. Just win the mirror through playskill, and play stifle and stop losing to wasteland.
Dmel is correct, they can trigger CB in response to a CMC 2, you can stifle, they can spin, response flip, counter your stifle, then resolve the spin, and then counter your CMC 2. Yeah. CB stacks can get nasty, but this is how it works.
Mike - I think I'll do that but the cards slosh around a bit if they're just single sleeved, so I think I'll go with purples in the binder and my pinks on the 75
Also, my purples are really old. The one's I was using on my deck were like going on 3 years lol. The top of the sleeve was getting the wave effect
Edit: So I have a question... if all my sleeves are really worn, does it still count as marked cards?
This has been discussed; you'll want more burn until you play against combo and realize that the deck is pretty much set in stone.
Anyways, I have a question for all of you; how do you handle your delvers and checklsits? Like where do you put them, in what sleeves, etc.
Okay also, I only play thresh and have about 150 cards that I use for my "sideboard" binder for tweaking the deck and sb. I have it all double sleeved in purple dragonshields right now, along with the maindeck. I'm considering sleeving the maindeck differently though, because I'm realizing that after a while, the wear will be uneven and I could get called for marked cards. This way at least my maindeck has one color, and the other sleeves are just for storage. The downside to this is that I won't have the extreme convenience of just moving cards in the sideboard without any sleeving process. Thoughts welcome
Fabien's list. Stifles, 3 goyf, 2 dismember, 1 fire/ice. I think it's one of, if not the strongest main deck configurations out there.
So I just outlined most of the legacy matchups in paper and regarding rough//tumble: It's really narrow. What does it come in against? Elves, Goblins Merfolk, Maverick, Affinity? Elves and Maverick - Submerge is just better; Goblins and Merfolk? Last time I checked, these are positive matchups. Affinity? yeah. We run artifact hate against what really matters. As a final tip, it goes against a lot of theory against maverick. Generally you want to be slaying their dudes as fast as they can pop important ones out, and waiting to find the perfect 2-1 with rough can be dangerous.
Also, so is Sulfer Elemental. It comes in against Maverick, the Rock, BW Stoneforge, and DnT. Maverick and the Rock -> Submerge is just as good; BW Stoneforge and DnT: Yeah he could help here, but it's not like we're siding nothing - we do have 2 artifact hate usually. Oh and also, he's a bit above the curve we want, but not by much.
I'm very tempted to cut both and add a 3rd extraction and 4th submerge to my list above.
Here's my updated sideboard. It's purposely configured to cover as many bases as possible. With this deck, the value of each card is so high that you want to be making hyper efficient tweaks. Here's the list:
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
3 Subermege
1 Krosan Grip (Was ancient grudge, now 1x Krosan Grip as a way to assault cb and top. Terminus control looks like something that's on the rise. Also, uncounterable answer to equipment)
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Tormod's Crypt (was the third extraction, still undecided on this, but I figured diversified hate is good hate)
1 Sulfer Elemental (Comes in against Mother of Runes decks, Lingering Souls.dec, etc.)
1 Rough// Tumble (It beats Elves combo, Gobblins, and Merfolk, helps a bit vs Maverick, etc.)
1 Life from the Loam (great in grindy matchups, turns your Brainstorms into ancestrals and keeps situational counters live because of recurring wastelands)
A lot of the idea behind diversification is that it can lead to blow outs in situations where your opponent is expecting one sb card and you bring in another
Let me know what you think!
On harness, two seems like the right number. Once they see it Maverick will probs board back in Pridemages, in which case you catch them red handed with Submerge. I like it, diversified hate is good hate
I run Pyroblast in person, but type REB because it's faster to type - don't worry I'm well aware of the corner case senario; Mongoose thresh tricks with wastelands and stuff are right up my alley for sly things to do.
Three mana is much more than two, I agree. I feel like 2 Grudge is too much though still, Pierce deals with hardcaste equips quite well, but I might be missing something.
My problem with 3 Pyroblast is that in almost every matchup I want to bring it in, I also want to have my maximum number of Pierces available as well, and on top of that I might be bringing in artifact hate or a surgical or two. I might see a reverse split of Pierce and Pyro (2-3) but I'm really quite undecided.
Sulfer Elemental - This card just seems so limited in application. Sure, it comes in against Lingering Souls, Maverick, and some other white decks, but the problem is that's it. Against Lingering Souls, I'd probably rather Surgical is out of their deck than have them go for a swords on my Elemental and then continue to roll out souls. That's my problem with it at least. Also, like you said, 3 mana is a lot, and a sideboard spot is even more. Again, I could be missing something, in which case I'd love for you to prove me wrong.
I agree with you 1 crypt 2 surgical
@ Dominus, you bring up a very very good point. With Dismember main, Harness is probably worth a 2-2 or 3-1 split in favor of submerge. I also agree that we need force of will to beat Maverick. Considering we lose of a resolved and protected knight, you have to consider it similar to them resolving natural order, or something of that nature. Basically, don't let it happen.
Edit: Rethinking my position on spierce. When games go long, the opponent can often times blank them by just searching basics and paying, making is significantly less reliable as a way to consistently beat Jace. Perhaps two is the correct number after all.
Edit: # 2 as soon as I took out the 3rd Spierce for 3 Pyro, I realized Krosan was out of place. I promptly traded it for a grudge.
Main deck has 2 Dismember and 1 fire//ice
SB: 2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
2 Surgical
1 Crypt
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Spierce
3 Pyroblast
1 rough/ tumble
I've come to the conclusion that the correct number of counterspells in the sideboard is 4-5. If 5, what split of Pierce / REB do you suggest? My gut tells me Pierce, but reb has a bit going for it. I ending up writing up most of the matchups on paper, and ran through some quick percentages. A large majority of matchups where pierce if in, reb is in also. You want about 2.5 Pierces in your sideboard, and 2.5 REBs. I calculated this BEFORE I took into account bringing in surgicals / artfact hate / krosan grip, etc, so the numbers will be a bit high for reb/pierces. I'm designing my sideboard for an open meta where just about anything can show up (yeah, it's a strange shop, literally anything can show up). On one hand, I think 2 REB 3 Pierce is probably right, on the other, 2 Reb and 2 Pierce will always be coming in, and never will we have too many cards to bring in with the 4 counterspell configuration.
Edit: Just ran through some more numbers on Submerge, and I'm considering dropping down to 3 because I run dismembers maindeck; and 1 rough//tumble sideboard.
Here's the current version of my sideboard
1 rough/ tumble
1 k grip
1 grudge
2 reb
3 pierce
4 subermerge
3 surgical
Regarding this, I think Krosan is the weakest link here. It's good against CB decks, but REB counters CB as well... still undecided. One plus for grip is that it's a great answer to batterskull.
4 Submerge is interesting, but I'm very tempted to go down to three to fit in another rough/tumble or maybe a sulfur elemental.
Edit #2: Thinking about it more, K. Grip makes more sense when you think of it as instead of grudge rather than instead of Red Blast.
What do you guys take out vs maverick?
Thoughts welcome.
EDIT: I too am thinking of cutting loam actually. It's the same as getting a land on your draw, and your brainstorms are already awesome in this deck. Probably something I'm going to cut. Just win the mirror through playskill, and play stifle and stop losing to wasteland.
Flip
CB
Stifle
Spin
CB
Goyf
You can retain priority after your trigger right?
Also, my purples are really old. The one's I was using on my deck were like going on 3 years lol. The top of the sleeve was getting the wave effect
Edit: So I have a question... if all my sleeves are really worn, does it still count as marked cards?
Anyways, I have a question for all of you; how do you handle your delvers and checklsits? Like where do you put them, in what sleeves, etc.
Okay also, I only play thresh and have about 150 cards that I use for my "sideboard" binder for tweaking the deck and sb. I have it all double sleeved in purple dragonshields right now, along with the maindeck. I'm considering sleeving the maindeck differently though, because I'm realizing that after a while, the wear will be uneven and I could get called for marked cards. This way at least my maindeck has one color, and the other sleeves are just for storage. The downside to this is that I won't have the extreme convenience of just moving cards in the sideboard without any sleeving process. Thoughts welcome
So I just outlined most of the legacy matchups in paper and regarding rough//tumble: It's really narrow. What does it come in against? Elves, Goblins Merfolk, Maverick, Affinity? Elves and Maverick - Submerge is just better; Goblins and Merfolk? Last time I checked, these are positive matchups. Affinity? yeah. We run artifact hate against what really matters. As a final tip, it goes against a lot of theory against maverick. Generally you want to be slaying their dudes as fast as they can pop important ones out, and waiting to find the perfect 2-1 with rough can be dangerous.
Also, so is Sulfer Elemental. It comes in against Maverick, the Rock, BW Stoneforge, and DnT. Maverick and the Rock -> Submerge is just as good; BW Stoneforge and DnT: Yeah he could help here, but it's not like we're siding nothing - we do have 2 artifact hate usually. Oh and also, he's a bit above the curve we want, but not by much.
I'm very tempted to cut both and add a 3rd extraction and 4th submerge to my list above.
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
3 Subermege
1 Krosan Grip (Was ancient grudge, now 1x Krosan Grip as a way to assault cb and top. Terminus control looks like something that's on the rise. Also, uncounterable answer to equipment)
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Tormod's Crypt (was the third extraction, still undecided on this, but I figured diversified hate is good hate)
1 Sulfer Elemental (Comes in against Mother of Runes decks, Lingering Souls.dec, etc.)
1 Rough// Tumble (It beats Elves combo, Gobblins, and Merfolk, helps a bit vs Maverick, etc.)
1 Life from the Loam (great in grindy matchups, turns your Brainstorms into ancestrals and keeps situational counters live because of recurring wastelands)
A lot of the idea behind diversification is that it can lead to blow outs in situations where your opponent is expecting one sb card and you bring in another
Let me know what you think!