Ideally you want some of both. 4 Verdant Catacombs, 2 Misty, 2 Flats works really well in my experience.
Keep in mind with the Blood Moon argument that the 2 Misty helps diversify the basics you can fetch. With the 4 Verdant/4 Misty setup you have 8 ways to fetch a Forest and 4 ways to fetch a Swamp. With the 4/2/2 setup you have 6 ways to get a Forest, 6 ways to get a Swamp, and 2 ways to get a Plains which is slightly better basic fetching overall, plus the basic plains is just really useful.
I find that 4/3/1 Verdant/Misty/Marsh works best, but I don't run the basic Plains. I just wanted another land that could fetch Godless Shrine if I wanted to.
During the past weeks I noticed that, when I lose a match, I generally win g1 and lose g2 and 3.
I started paying more attention to it and I realized that this is most likely because in post-sb games my opponent invariably plays a crippling piece of hate by turn 3 at the latest. My biggest strengths then become liabilities, since I can no more generate advantage through tutoring or recurring the graveyard. I have answers somewhere in the deck, of course, but when I find them it is generally too late to recover.
I tried to reduce my dependence on Pod by putting 3x Phyrexian Arena in the sb, so that when needed I can side out most, if not all, the tutors (Pod and Chord) and become a full midrange deck able to generate card advantage in the face of any piece of hate you throw at me. The added benefit of this approach is that I give my opponents a lot of dead draws (I always chuckle a little when they drop Grafdigger's Cage, cycle a Shadow of Doubt for no value or show me an Ancient Grudge rotting in their hand). This worked great vs. UWR of all kinds (I can't even remember when I last dropped a match vs. them), but didn't really provide good results vs. less durdly decks that can put me under pressure (a.k.a. assorted BGx decks and Twin, for the most part).
I believe the approach I am using is correct, because the occasions when having a Pod instead of an Arena would have improved my game have been extremely limited (because there was enough hate to make Pod/Chord bad). I am not very satisfied with Arena, though, because it doesn't do enough and, if the game goes south, it further reduces the time at my disposal to fix things. After another PTQ gone bad because of the above MUs (BGx and Twin), I am left wondering if and how I can have more game vs. them g2 and 3. I am honestly starting to wonder if the metagame is becoming too hostile to this deck, and the glaring reduction in results around the world seems to confirm my fears. If you could prove me wrong, or give suggestions, I would be more than happy.
How exactly are you sideboarding against BGx and Twin? How does your plan compare before and after you decided to add the Arena plan to the sideboard? If you are consistently losing games 2 and 3, then that typically points to over/under-sideboarding or playing the post-board games incorrectly. This deck is quite resilient to hate, so a single piece shouldn't matter that much.
I would not feel comfortable playing an Illusory Angel or Talrand without countermagic to protect it/generate value. That means I need to have 5 or 6 mana before casting either of these cards.
Clique is quite powerful, but good because it comes down at Instant speed. You can leave up 3 mana and force them to spend mana on their turn to deal with it.
is that really much better then shatterstorm or replicated shattering spree?
It is, at the very least, marginally more utility. Neither Shatterstorm nor Shattering Spree deal with Inkmoth Nexus. Neither spell can deal with a cast-equip-swing Cranial Plating without allowing them to get in damage. I personally just cut an Island for a Breeding Pool and play Shatterstorm + Grudge as my Affinity hate. I am, however, considering moving toward Hurkyl's Recall with the advent of more Affinity decks playing Ensoul Artifact.
i agree with a lot of your points. i wasnt trying to say UWR was better the UR, i was just saying its probably better then RUG or esper delver. whenever i start brainstorming UWR delver i inadvertently move toward cutting delvers for the higher curve #teamgiest tempo deck
I disagree about UWR Delver being better than RUG - I think RUG is the best Delver option, short of testing stuff like BUG or Grixis which I haven't played with so I don't really know much about them. I agree about what UWR Geist has to look like though - no Delvers and a higher curve.
my issues with green.... what are you really getting outside of goyf? delver doesnt really need mana accelerators, so im scratching my head to think of other good cards.
I have been testing out 2 Vendilion Clique in the deck with a swords of fire and ice and 2 Grim lavamancers. I noticed the deck that made the top 8 in the star city premium IQ had alot more counter spells without the flash of Clique and swords. Is that the direction we should be taking this deck? to a more controlling while attacking with incremental damage from cheap creatures?
For reference and constructive feedback this is the current list I have been sporting
Looking forward to your guy's thoughts on my list as well as the future of the deck itself in respect to which cards should fill in the final holes of our lists.
Thoughts:
4 Mountains is far too many, as many others have said. The bottleneck on your colored mana is often blue. I would suggest some "spell-lands" (Tectonic Edge, Mutavault), more blue sources, or more fetchlands (and probably Breeding Pool to open up Ancient Grudge in your SB).
I generally prefer Spell Pierce to Spell Snare. There are, in my mind, exactly 3 cards that you really want to counter at 3 mana: Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, and Tarmogoyf. Everything else can be easily mitigated through removal spells (Ensoul Artifact loses to Vapor Snag, every other creature dies to Bolt, etc.) or your other countermagic. I think this might come down to personal preference, but Spell Pierce is a better card, in my mind.
2 Electrolyze is really dense maindeck. 1 is definitely correct, but 2 feels like they could clog your hand.
Play either Lavamancer or Clique, not both. I disagree with the notion that Lavamancer and Snapcaster is a nonbo; you just need to learn how to play them in tandem to maximize your value out of both.
But there's no upside if it doesn't die. A vanilla 1/3 in play is pretty worthless in modern, so you're just playing him for the ability to draw instants and sorceries - he's like a weird cantrip. But unlike a normal cantrip he doesn't flip Delver and can't find lands or creatures, which are both often things you're digging for.
Do i want to find Lands or creatures? If i'm digging 3 cards deep to find an instant, would a Probe be better to find a land or creature? I don't think so, thats why i included him.
Ok, maybe i need to find a list not running YP, so i'm able to focus more on not running Probe and Visions.
It sounds like you are more interested in a controlling build. In that case, you should check out some of Jeff Hoogland's articles on UR Faeries. He opts for no cantrips, Spellstutter Sprite, and Vendilion Clique over the YP package. Young Pyro makes the deck more aggressive, to be certain, but it is ultimately a metagame call.
Let me know what you guys think about thus type of deck
Goblin Electromancer doesn't seem like the place you want to be. It doesn't really do anything powerful for you; your bottleneck is almost always colored mana, and you usually aren't aiming to cast 3 or more spells per turn, which is where he generates the most value. I'd rather be on a card that is threatening by itself; this deck can't really exploit the mana-generation aspect of Electromancer, so he's just a 2/2.
Also, Dissipate? That card is far too expensive for what it does in this format.
I do agree with Mutavault. That card has a spot in this deck, in my opinion.
How about removing 2 grim, 1 sword and 2 or 3 other spells, adding kiki-exarch combo? I know i would be nearly an other deck rip off, but also would give another way to win.
The deck, as stated, has become a little bit stagnant without being able to stand as T1 deck, and maybe a combo could push him...
If you want to play Exarch-Twin, then play Exarch-Twin. There's no reason to create a hybrid of those decks that does a mediocre job at playing either tempo or combo.
Yea I can see that being done. Posted your deck list when your finished, and about remand it's just personal preference, I find myself wanting a hard counter.but yea add remand if you want.
Remand is like... the third best card in the deck (after Lightning Bolt and Snapcaster Mage). I can't imagine cutting it. It does everything you want to in this deck: buys time to kill them and replaces itself.
The Mesa is there because (you guess right) budgetary reasons.
26 Instants is enough to run Bolas IMO.
Dakra Mystic is slow and doesn't generate much value on its own. Eidolon of the Great Revel is unnecessary; you'd rather play something like Counterflux.
Augur of Bolas is not a tempo card. A 1/3 that dies to everything is not a real threat in this format.
Dissolve is slow. I don't want to be paying more than 2 mana for my counterspells unless they are offensively powerful (a la Cryptic Command or the already mentioned Counterflux).
2 fetches isn't enough, in my opinion. 4-5 is optimal. Also, you NEED blue fetches for this deck. It just doesn't function well without them.
Jace is not a tempo card, nor do I think he's powerful enough for Modern in general.
Fetchlands are basically tri-lands in a deck like this. For a 3 color deck with some hellish color requirements and 3 colorless lands, that's a really big boon.
I actually keep Thoughtseize in against burn. Being able to discard/force their hand on skullcrack is really important.
I really disagree with this notion. Skullcrack is a card that is good against bursts of lifegain. Pod is a deck that exploits incremental lifegain through Kitchen Finks and Scavenging Ooze. Skullcrack is the least of your worries, and my experience is that it's best to just jam into it. It's not a card you can heavily play against besides forcing them to have it. I would rather have cards like Forge-Tender, ScOoze, and Eidolon against them.
Sorry about the list... dont know how to make it organized with links like eveyrone else.
So I was talking to a guy on Craigslist and scored all the cards I needed for this deck, after picking up everything else I ended up missing only the marsh flats and 1 misty rain forest. Are those really neccesary? if not, what should I replace it with? And ya, I'm thinking of dropping the resto angel for a 2nd murderous redcap.
8 fetchlands is pretty ideal for this deck, and I would say the commonly accepted configuration is 4/3/1 Verdant/Misty/Flats. They're not necessary, per se, but they really smooth out your draws. What would you replace them with?
I think the 1st Restoration Angel is better than the 2nd Murderous Redcap, despite being in a combo meta. Pod is a deck that really takes advantage of the flexibility of singletons. I don't play the card myself, though.
I feel like the main issue with LSV's Pod list is that his opponents are often playing around the Melira combo because they lose if they do not respect it. As a result, his opponent plays around things that aren't there, which is a subtle advantage. You see this a lot in Legacy, as well, where people sometimes play RUG Delver with 1 or less Stifles for the free wins from people playing around it (similar situation with 1 Daze after sideboarding, etc.). If more people played LSV's list, then it would be much worse. It is, in my opinion, proportionally good to how many people play it.
He also was tuning for a metagame in GP Minneapolis; he wanted Thoughtseizes maindeck to have a solid game plan against Storm and Scapeshift, which ended up being two of the more popular decks at the event. It obviously worked well for him.
The issue with this is that it allows Storm to "go off" as they please until they find their Echoing Truth, then kill you. This is why Rule of Law is so good against them; they can't go off until they find their Echoing Truth.
I actually prefer the double Batterskull over a 1/1 split between it and Wurmcoil. Both cards beat Jund, and it has far more applications against other random ilk (8-Rack, coming down a turn sooner against Burn, etc.).
I don't think the deck needs more answers to Affinity. 3 board wipes, a pile of Path to Exile, some O-Ring effects, and Elesh Norn should be sufficient.
I also don't think Blood Moon is as good as expected against us. It turns off the Celestial Colonnade win condition and the Tron lands, but we don't exactly need either to win. Further, we usually have a better game plan against the decks that run Blood Moon (Storm and Twin, primarily).
As others have said, the main draw to UW is three-fold:
Manabase consistency. Blanking Wasteland as a way to lock you down feels really good.
Simplicity in card selection. You have all the tools you need just in UW to deal with almost anything. It's not necessarily as powerful, but you can cope.
Mishra's Factory. Cheap man-lands are what Stoneblade wants, and this is the best one in the format.
She's not a wish target, she's just a standard sideboard card. I only find her good as a singleton and only good against certain decks, so she's sideboarded.
I find that 4/3/1 Verdant/Misty/Marsh works best, but I don't run the basic Plains. I just wanted another land that could fetch Godless Shrine if I wanted to.
How exactly are you sideboarding against BGx and Twin? How does your plan compare before and after you decided to add the Arena plan to the sideboard? If you are consistently losing games 2 and 3, then that typically points to over/under-sideboarding or playing the post-board games incorrectly. This deck is quite resilient to hate, so a single piece shouldn't matter that much.
Clique is quite powerful, but good because it comes down at Instant speed. You can leave up 3 mana and force them to spend mana on their turn to deal with it.
It is, at the very least, marginally more utility. Neither Shatterstorm nor Shattering Spree deal with Inkmoth Nexus. Neither spell can deal with a cast-equip-swing Cranial Plating without allowing them to get in damage. I personally just cut an Island for a Breeding Pool and play Shatterstorm + Grudge as my Affinity hate. I am, however, considering moving toward Hurkyl's Recall with the advent of more Affinity decks playing Ensoul Artifact.
Flashback on Ancient Grudge.
Thoughts:
It sounds like you are more interested in a controlling build. In that case, you should check out some of Jeff Hoogland's articles on UR Faeries. He opts for no cantrips, Spellstutter Sprite, and Vendilion Clique over the YP package. Young Pyro makes the deck more aggressive, to be certain, but it is ultimately a metagame call.
Goblin Electromancer doesn't seem like the place you want to be. It doesn't really do anything powerful for you; your bottleneck is almost always colored mana, and you usually aren't aiming to cast 3 or more spells per turn, which is where he generates the most value. I'd rather be on a card that is threatening by itself; this deck can't really exploit the mana-generation aspect of Electromancer, so he's just a 2/2.
Also, Dissipate? That card is far too expensive for what it does in this format.
I do agree with Mutavault. That card has a spot in this deck, in my opinion.
If you want to play Exarch-Twin, then play Exarch-Twin. There's no reason to create a hybrid of those decks that does a mediocre job at playing either tempo or combo.
Remand is like... the third best card in the deck (after Lightning Bolt and Snapcaster Mage). I can't imagine cutting it. It does everything you want to in this deck: buys time to kill them and replaces itself.
Dakra Mystic is slow and doesn't generate much value on its own. Eidolon of the Great Revel is unnecessary; you'd rather play something like Counterflux.
Augur of Bolas is not a tempo card. A 1/3 that dies to everything is not a real threat in this format.
Dissolve is slow. I don't want to be paying more than 2 mana for my counterspells unless they are offensively powerful (a la Cryptic Command or the already mentioned Counterflux).
2 fetches isn't enough, in my opinion. 4-5 is optimal. Also, you NEED blue fetches for this deck. It just doesn't function well without them.
Jace is not a tempo card, nor do I think he's powerful enough for Modern in general.
In what world is this "too slow?"
(Verdant Catacombs, Misty Rainforest, Marsh Flats, Noble Hierarch, Linvala....)
I really disagree with this notion. Skullcrack is a card that is good against bursts of lifegain. Pod is a deck that exploits incremental lifegain through Kitchen Finks and Scavenging Ooze. Skullcrack is the least of your worries, and my experience is that it's best to just jam into it. It's not a card you can heavily play against besides forcing them to have it. I would rather have cards like Forge-Tender, ScOoze, and Eidolon against them.
8 fetchlands is pretty ideal for this deck, and I would say the commonly accepted configuration is 4/3/1 Verdant/Misty/Flats. They're not necessary, per se, but they really smooth out your draws. What would you replace them with?
I think the 1st Restoration Angel is better than the 2nd Murderous Redcap, despite being in a combo meta. Pod is a deck that really takes advantage of the flexibility of singletons. I don't play the card myself, though.
He also was tuning for a metagame in GP Minneapolis; he wanted Thoughtseizes maindeck to have a solid game plan against Storm and Scapeshift, which ended up being two of the more popular decks at the event. It obviously worked well for him.
I don't think the deck needs more answers to Affinity. 3 board wipes, a pile of Path to Exile, some O-Ring effects, and Elesh Norn should be sufficient.
I also don't think Blood Moon is as good as expected against us. It turns off the Celestial Colonnade win condition and the Tron lands, but we don't exactly need either to win. Further, we usually have a better game plan against the decks that run Blood Moon (Storm and Twin, primarily).
Definitely. I've been playing the following list to good success:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mystic Gate
Creatures (12):
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Spells (18):
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Misdirection
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Meddling Mage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Swan Song
1 Detention Sphere
1 Flusterstorm
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Path to Exile
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
As others have said, the main draw to UW is three-fold: