I'm slowly starting to see a lot of lists play this guy in lists with a lot of equip to support him like Pike and SoWaP.
My question is, How do we deal with him? With a Pike on him he can be a pretty quick clock. Sure trying to race it is an option, but a decent draw can really wreck face.
Only answers I can think of off the top of my head are Ratchet bomb, Dispense Justice, and Marrow Shards. Bad part about them is that ratchet bomb is pretty slow, and the other two are extremely narrow.
Personally, I run 3 Midnight Haunting MB. I see Slipknot thinks it's: a terrible card, but it helps in certain matchups a lot. I was having problems with Kessig when I didn't draw a Ghost Quarters, and Illusions when they have Turn 1 Delver, Turn 2 Flip. If nobody has noticed, Kessig doesn't have to resolved a Primeval Titan to win. They can just go Turn 1 Inkmoth, Turn 2 Swing, etc. If you don't hit 3 out of the 60 cards, you lose right there. Haunting vs Kessig says, 2W : Destroy 1-2 lands (Inkmoths). Against Illusions, it helps as a blocker, to delay taking damage or forcing a EOT3 counter spell which sets you up for an open chance to Day.
dispense justice is great. its even better if you have metalcraft up. though that's quite hard to do in this deck. when i ran it in my puresteel deck, it ate up phyrexian crusaders and stromkirks. i can definitely see it dealing with thrun with ease.
glad to see people are jumping on the vapor snag idea. when we don't have any real good spot removal, it'll have to do. since my list is a little different, i'm also thinking about running a few turn aside in my sideboard. it helps defend the swords, batterskull, elseh and soldier gideon.
I tried Vapor Snag and I wasn't impressed with it at all. It doesn't really deal with Inkmoth, it' just buys you a turn. I put in 3x Midnight Haunting and it has been AMAZING. It provides blockers and kills any Inkmoth that comes our way. I was having trouble with a good Illusions player and
Kessig until I put in Midnight Haunting. I went 2-0 vs Kessig and 4-0 vs Illusions thanks to Midnight Haunting.
Dispense Justice is okay, but usually Kessig will usually have more than one creature out, so Dispense Justice is kindof narrow. I like Phantasmal Image to take care of Thrun. Kills him on the spot, no questions asked.
Slagstorm would be hard on the mana base I think since we'll want to drop it turn 3, and double red isn't always going to be available. I was thinking about splashing red some how, but I'm not too sure. The reason Solar Flare isn't too good is because of it's mana base. And they have both U/W and U/B SoM fast lands, M12 duals, and Isolated Chapel.
After playing this deck for two weeks. I noticed early game is slightly weak. We gain counter spells and answers, but other decks just seem to draw more and more threats. I was thinking about tossing in an early game threat and I think I found one. Geist of Saint Traft is an amazing card in this deck. I know nobody likes playing creatures in this, but this card is insane. I usually drop it around turn 3-5 depending. It's just a 4 turn clock. With all the counter spells we run, it's easy to protect it. If you land one turn 3, and they don't have a creature on the board or don't have a turn 3 play, they flat out lose. I highly suggest trying it out, it's worked extremely well for me so far
2)The counterspells are solid, whenever something gets through, I just O-ring it and problem solved.
3)The Zeniths are also pretty solid, they found a home in this deck
4)Karn resolved=gg (usually)
Question: How do you play against an early inkmoth (or WRR in general) in game 1?
Well, you are running Ghost Quarters, so you should be able to take care of it. I've never personally played against WWR, but from what I hear its kindof like the Valakut matchup. This is probably much easier than the Valakut matchup since you can't lose to an top decked mountain. Anyway, I would say just counter their big threats like Primeval, Inferno Titan if they're running it. Since Summoning Trap isn't around, you don't have to worry about countering a Primeval. Just Day of Judgement when you have to, then just counter Titans etc., land a Karn/Gideon/Elspeth and win the game. If you're expecting a lot of WWR, a card for you sideboard should be Twisted Image. They can dump all the mana they want into that Inkmoth, it'll just be a 1/11 or 1/10 and you draw a card. The only real problem I see this deck having a problem with pre-board is maindeck Thrun. I guess the only real out is to Day when they tap out.
But pre-board, just stick to countering bombs, wiping the board when you have to, and getting a ghost quarter.
This is my deck. Attacking with creatures just isn't my thing, and I wanted to build a deck that was a draw-go style as I possibly could. I threw Jace in there because I figured he'd occasionally soak up an attack or give me a card, but he actually ended up as a win condition. I didn't expect Glimpse the Unthinkable for 0 to be good, but I guess if you can repeat it for free every turn you'll get there eventually.
It's one card too many at the moment if I got the deck right off the top of my head, since I acquired a fourth Tiago and haven't worked out what to drop for him just yet. I know that I can't flashback Alchemy without Snapcastering it, but it's worked out well enough so far and I like the card enough as an overcosted Impulse or whatever to put it in anyway. I'd like to work another win condition in there though, probably a second Karn, since he just puts it away if he gets active.
Figured I'd add my two cents to the pile and see where we end up. Other than in turns, I'm there a lot with this deck.
I wonder how Jace 3.0 would be in this deck. A Think Twice for free every turn would be good in my opinion. I'm not too sure how putting something in an opponents graveyard would be with flashback and Snapcaster Mage decks running around. Against any aggro, the mill 10 would probably work very well since you're milling their win cons. The 5 spot already seems packed with 3-4 more powerful PW's. What do you guys think?
I think Gideon should stay as a 2 of. Making creatures attack him is really important.
On another note, what do you guys think about Druidic Satchel as a 1 or 2 of, it seems like it could really be valuable in the long run. In most cases we will be gaining 2 life per opponents end step which could result in an extra 8-10 life. It also gives us an opportunity to get extra lands which could let us resolve a turn 5 Gideon with counter mana up for their turn. It would also filter our draws so we don't hit land after land after land. What do you guys think?
Is it just me, or are the 'walkers bad as long as white is a common color for aggressive decks? I'm not sure if the logic holds up, so bear with me:
1) White Aggro decks are popular (U/W, G/W, Tempered Steel
2) White aggro decks have Oblivion Ring/Mana Leak as what amounts to their only Non-Threat spells
3) Oblivion Ring and Mana Leak are good against Planeswalkers, to the point of being the only seriously effective 1-1's against them
I'm not sure how much sense that makes, I'm on my Phone and it's difficult for me to articulate the point I'm trying to make, but what it boils down to is that I think the walkers, especially karn, are bad. I'm testing with White Sun's Zenith and a Singleton Wurmcoil Engine. What I'm really looking for to replace the walkers is a recurring threat, which WSZ and 'Coil+Buried Ruin are, but all in one card, on a body, so to speak.
I think it would be a mistake to take the PW's out. Wurmcoil Engine is an amazing card but it doesn't really effect the board much. Karn can exile whatever the problem is, be it Birthing Pod, a creature equipped with Angelic Destiny, etc. Karn also rips the opponents hands apart. He acts as a Gideon of sorts because your opponent has to attack him or else you restart the game with amazing board position. Gideon is amazing against any deck because he's a Fog of sorts, he can attack for 6, or destroy a creature. Elspeth seems to be the worst of the three in my opinion. If you can DoJ and follow up with Elspeth, you more than likely win the game. The life gain helps but the thing that lowers the power level of it is that you can only gain life the second turn it's out.
I did some testing against it last night. Even with turn 2 abolisher, Turn 4-5 DoJ turns it around.
Well when I played against it, he landed a turn 2 Grand Abolisher, turn 3 crusader/giest. I day'd and he followed up with another Grand Abolisher. Maybe it was just bad luck.
Depends on your build. Even in a list thats running oblivion rings and white sun's zeniths, snapcaster mage feels like the best card in the deck. It's incredibly versatile and, imo, needs to be a 3-4 of auto-include in decks right now. Some of the more planeswalker oriented lists might drop him alltogether or only run him as a 2-of, but the esper lists I've seen right now are the best fit for snapcaster outside of tempo lists.
Snapcaster Mage is extremely important in this deck. The meta game right now is aggro heavy so we usually always need a Day of Judgement ready. Running 4 Day of Judgements and 2-4 Snapcaster Mages, we have 6-8 "DoJ's" in our deck.
I know pod isn't really big right now, but if they land a pod against us, it's a rough game. Basically all we have to answer to the creatures is DoJ and Karn to answer the pod. We need to be able to Day as much as possible until we land a Karn and take control of the game back.
I know it's a little strange, but I've had success with it. 4 DoJ, 3 Timely, and 2 Wurmcoil can be really tough on aggro decks. In my playtesting, I've found the only way I can beat WRR is to have enough counters to let nothing resolve. And it's worked. I ran 12 last night and I added 3 more to the SB that I will playtest. Timely and DoJ are both pretty bad in that matchup, because if they resolve a Titan, inkmoth will kill me. So I also need to side in Dismember or try to not let a Titan resolve and use Ghost Quarter on any inkmoths or wolf runs that they draw.
I've had a little trouble with RDW. I'm hoping Celestial Purge will make that matchup a little easier.
Yes, I realize mainboard mimic vat is crazy. But turn 3 vat to turn 4 DoJ isn't bad. And it's fun and unexpected.
UW Humans is a matchup I'm a little worried about. I haven't played it yet.
The hardest part about UW Humans is Grand Abolisher. That card wrecks us so hard. If they don't hit a turn 2 Grand Abolisher you're in good shape.
Less creatures, more permission. I'm not sure if you've ever played with Blue Sun's Zenith, but it is a must in this deck. I'm guessing Timely is just a meta call. 4x Days would be good. Karn and Elspeth are really good in here. A lot of games I would be on the ropes, land a Karn, exile wincons, reset the game and win. I really like Karn in this deck. I'd suggest testing him out
I'm slowly starting to see a lot of lists play this guy in lists with a lot of equip to support him like Pike and SoWaP.
My question is, How do we deal with him? With a Pike on him he can be a pretty quick clock. Sure trying to race it is an option, but a decent draw can really wreck face.
Only answers I can think of off the top of my head are Ratchet bomb, Dispense Justice, and Marrow Shards. Bad part about them is that ratchet bomb is pretty slow, and the other two are extremely narrow.
Are there any large tournaments on there? Like PTQ's and such. I really enjoy playing in large tournaments but traveling is always an issue.
How much do Daily Events and such cost? I hear MTGO is cheaper but with the price of events I wonder.
Thanks in advance
I tried Vapor Snag and I wasn't impressed with it at all. It doesn't really deal with Inkmoth, it' just buys you a turn. I put in 3x Midnight Haunting and it has been AMAZING. It provides blockers and kills any Inkmoth that comes our way. I was having trouble with a good Illusions player and
Kessig until I put in Midnight Haunting. I went 2-0 vs Kessig and 4-0 vs Illusions thanks to Midnight Haunting.
Dispense Justice is okay, but usually Kessig will usually have more than one creature out, so Dispense Justice is kindof narrow. I like Phantasmal Image to take care of Thrun. Kills him on the spot, no questions asked.
Well, you are running Ghost Quarters, so you should be able to take care of it. I've never personally played against WWR, but from what I hear its kindof like the Valakut matchup. This is probably much easier than the Valakut matchup since you can't lose to an top decked mountain. Anyway, I would say just counter their big threats like Primeval, Inferno Titan if they're running it. Since Summoning Trap isn't around, you don't have to worry about countering a Primeval. Just Day of Judgement when you have to, then just counter Titans etc., land a Karn/Gideon/Elspeth and win the game. If you're expecting a lot of WWR, a card for you sideboard should be Twisted Image. They can dump all the mana they want into that Inkmoth, it'll just be a 1/11 or 1/10 and you draw a card. The only real problem I see this deck having a problem with pre-board is maindeck Thrun. I guess the only real out is to Day when they tap out.
But pre-board, just stick to countering bombs, wiping the board when you have to, and getting a ghost quarter.
I wonder how Jace 3.0 would be in this deck. A Think Twice for free every turn would be good in my opinion. I'm not too sure how putting something in an opponents graveyard would be with flashback and Snapcaster Mage decks running around. Against any aggro, the mill 10 would probably work very well since you're milling their win cons. The 5 spot already seems packed with 3-4 more powerful PW's. What do you guys think?
On another note, what do you guys think about Druidic Satchel as a 1 or 2 of, it seems like it could really be valuable in the long run. In most cases we will be gaining 2 life per opponents end step which could result in an extra 8-10 life. It also gives us an opportunity to get extra lands which could let us resolve a turn 5 Gideon with counter mana up for their turn. It would also filter our draws so we don't hit land after land after land. What do you guys think?
I think it would be a mistake to take the PW's out. Wurmcoil Engine is an amazing card but it doesn't really effect the board much. Karn can exile whatever the problem is, be it Birthing Pod, a creature equipped with Angelic Destiny, etc. Karn also rips the opponents hands apart. He acts as a Gideon of sorts because your opponent has to attack him or else you restart the game with amazing board position. Gideon is amazing against any deck because he's a Fog of sorts, he can attack for 6, or destroy a creature. Elspeth seems to be the worst of the three in my opinion. If you can DoJ and follow up with Elspeth, you more than likely win the game. The life gain helps but the thing that lowers the power level of it is that you can only gain life the second turn it's out.
Well when I played against it, he landed a turn 2 Grand Abolisher, turn 3 crusader/giest. I day'd and he followed up with another Grand Abolisher. Maybe it was just bad luck.
Snapcaster Mage is extremely important in this deck. The meta game right now is aggro heavy so we usually always need a Day of Judgement ready. Running 4 Day of Judgements and 2-4 Snapcaster Mages, we have 6-8 "DoJ's" in our deck.
I know pod isn't really big right now, but if they land a pod against us, it's a rough game. Basically all we have to answer to the creatures is DoJ and Karn to answer the pod. We need to be able to Day as much as possible until we land a Karn and take control of the game back.
The hardest part about UW Humans is Grand Abolisher. That card wrecks us so hard. If they don't hit a turn 2 Grand Abolisher you're in good shape.
Less creatures, more permission. I'm not sure if you've ever played with Blue Sun's Zenith, but it is a must in this deck. I'm guessing Timely is just a meta call. 4x Days would be good. Karn and Elspeth are really good in here. A lot of games I would be on the ropes, land a Karn, exile wincons, reset the game and win. I really like Karn in this deck. I'd suggest testing him out