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  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from Negator_402 »
    Is it me, or were comments closed for that extremely anti-anti-Hambly article on the main page?


    The staff collectively made the decision that due to the level of toxicity in the comment section, comments will be disabled for that article.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Uhhh what? You think the idea that maybe an attractive women who dresses up revealing might be taking advantage of romantically challenge magic players is a tin foil conspiracy?


    I'll be customarily blunt about this: That ***** doesn't happen.

    It's just scaremongering meant to help people feel bad about alienating others. Sure, some cosplayers may be in it for the money, but their intentions aren't this kind of predatory "lead men on and victimize them out of their money" gubbins. At worst, it's just business.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    How about a challenge, try to look at it from the other point of view?


    I've been on the other side. At one time in my life, I was actually quite a vocal anti-feminist, believe it or not. I have more than a decade of experience with -chan culture and my relationship to it has similarly changed over the years. I went from the "for the lulz" kind of poster to the "get back to /pol/" kind of poster (fun fact: on a lot of boards, there's a very sizable population of outright progressive posters with no patience for the kind of "chan culture" /pol/ represents). You can't get a better look at a point of view than having sincerely espoused it before.

    I understand where the trolls are coming from and why they think what they think. I understand the people I'm calling out in my editorial, even if I stridently disagree with them. The people who use pejorative acronyms and derogatory epithets to refer to Sprankle's defenders, however, seem to be making no effort to understand the people they're insulting.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    For those interested in reading a bit more about the greater issues behind these and other incidents, I recently posted an editorial on the subject. It pulls no punches, but if anyone in here finds my rhetoric unsettling, try not to write it off as just the rantings of someone on the far left. Mutual understanding is essential both to understand where harassment comes from and how to unpack those unpleasant aspects of ourselves we don't usually question.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from vincentdee »
    If this is at the LGS and someone is acting like this, YES, you are 100% right.. because there is a limited audience and calling out bad behavior will either shut the person down causing them to be an outcast OR show you that that is a LGS you shouldn't go to anymore. Internet tho, well no press is bad Press. Controversy helps on the internet. Social suicide in social networks is literally causing people to ignore you. Jimmy Wong from the Command zone had the right idea with his post, he didn't even tag the person he felt was acting toxic.


    Getting banned from available platforms really does help stifle one's message, though. Milo Yiannapoulos learned that lesson the hard way.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    I think I agree. Going on some kind of grand online take down of all the bad elements of the community is never going to work. You can't just get rid of them.


    No, but you can drive hate underground and make it social suicide for someone to engage in hateful behaviour. We can't police people's thoughts (and nor should we even if we somehow could), but we can certainly police people's behaviour. The less bigotry that gets represented and normalized within the community (such as by the community giving them a platform by ignoring them, allowing them to preach to the choir), the fewer bigots will feel empowered to do more of the same.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from DirkGently »
    Quote from Syzygylion »
    The MTG community as a whole is incredibly toxic.
    It really bothers me when people think things like this. All of our LGSs have been great places to play, with very few issues with other players. The vast majority of magic players are fine, normal people. There are bad apples in every community.


    You know how the saying goes: One bad apple spoils the whole barrel. That's why it's imperative to root out those bad apples from the Magic community.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from Greyimp »
    The best thing the community and WOTC can do is ignore haters.


    Unsporting Conduct is two entire warning categories (Minor and Major) at Competitive and Professional REL events. If you make comments like Jeremy's during such an event, you can and will get warnings, match losses, or even disqualified as appropriate.

    That philosophy should help the community dictate response to such trolls. Ignoring them does not make them go away. Banning them does. I say this as someone who's been a regular on 4chan for well over 10 years now.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from RedtoothX1 »
    But, can you not see how taking a position(as RxPhantom said) of "agree or don't post" is just mentally lazy? Not to mention it does nothing other than create a useless echo chamber AND feeds the far right narrative of the intolerant Left.


    It's not mentally lazy when the discussion in question is hatred on one side, and non-hatred on the other. This isn't a discussion about, say, whether Flip It Or Rip It (which Sprankle played to much backlash) is a bad thing or not. This is a discussion about an incident of coordinated harassment. Intellectual laziness would be some kind of "both sides have equal rights to equal time to present themselves" nonsense, without evaluating whether one side even deserves a platform. And in this case, we as the staff have decided that bigotry, hatred, and harassment do not deserve a platform on our site.

    And don't even start to tell me this site isn't biased. It's philosophically Left down to its bones.


    Of course the site is left-wing. As Content Manager, I can even tell you that there's an explicitly feminist leaning towards front-page content—not that you'd really notice, since we don't really publish anything where that matters (although I've touched on such issues briefly in How To Handle "That Guy"). And Jeremy is That Guy ramped up to 11. On top of that, I've personally rejected article submissions that attempt to bring pro-Gamergate comparisons into discussions of social issues within the Magic community. Furthermore, the whole "reality has a liberal bias" meme does have solid ground because, politically, the American right wing has moved so far to the right that discrimination is utterly normalized under their philosophies.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from Cainsson »
    "You're either alt-left or you're a nazi" is exactly the reason why a lot of people who find Jeremy disgusting refuse to shun him if it means taking your side.


    Problem is pretty much nobody actually says that, or anything to that effect. It's just what some people choose to hear instead of the more nuanced discourse that goes on. And this isn't just about Jeremy, but everyone who harasses people in the community, as well as those who enable the harassment. Sure, shutting down Jeremy's social media accounts (and hopefully having the DCI suspend him from organized play) would be good, but he isn't the only problematic element within the community. And the community will only change for the better if the people within the community enforce that change themselves.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from ChrisBlitz »
    Women have only just gotten equal rights in Canada!?

    That's going a bit far surely?


    I'm just going to put some context out there for those who aren't up on Canadian politics: Bill C-16 adds gender identity and expression to the list of protected classes (along with existing categories such as sex, nationality, religion, etc) as far as hate crimes and the like go. Essentially, it helps grant trans people equal rights as far as legal protections.

    Jordan Peterson's scaremongering was absolutely no different than if it was religion being added as a protected class and worrying that everyone would be forced to kowtow to every fringe cult in existence, rather than just being a prohibition against, say, antisemitism, anti-Catholicism, etc.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from ProfessorWhen »
    Why is harassment only a women's problem? Furthermore, if that is your stance it seems like you are supporting the counter-harassment that situations like this always seem to generate when put into the "court of public opinion."


    It's not only a women's problem, but it happens disproportionately to women and people of colour to such a disgustingly disproportionate degree (and with a disproportionate level of vitriol) that having most of the public discourse on the subject be about minority groups is nothing more than a reflection of the frequency which these incidents occur as opposed to straight white cis men.

    Quote from BlueTronFTW »
    You're in Canada, what do you think the good Professor Jordan Peterson would say about stating that we should always believe accusations without evidence, hell putting proof in quotation marks as if its some vague concept.


    I'm going to be very blunt here: What the **** should I care about what someone who stridently opposed the bill (C-16, for the record) that would grant me equal rights at the federal level thinks? The man is an example of scaremongering from someone who opposes equal treatment for minority groups, nothing more.

    I have two sisters, I'm not that heartless, but if they ever told me they were experiencing problems my first advice would be to file a report with authorities as opposed to Twitter.


    Reports which, I can tell you as a woman, are more likely than not simply to be dismissed. Sexism is an institutional problem as well as a social one. This is why it's so important for communities to police themselves and ensure that outspoken bigots, harassers, and other filth are ostracized rather than embraced.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from ProfessorWhen »
    It is my opinion that we (at least those involved in this issue) live in a country that bases its judgement on the philosophy of "innocent until proven guilty."


    That's for courts of law, though, not for courts of public opinion. While cases like Sprankle's are very clear-cut with lots of evidence of harassment, the greater problems facing women in the community boil down to lower-tier harassment that adds up over time, with little to no evidence to "prove" guilt. Hence why it's imperative to believe women when we say when an environment or player is being toxic, without endless demands for "proof" and constant reinforcement of "it's just a joke, relax."
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from purklefluff »
    if someone gets upset, that's an automatic, overwhelming response. most people can't just "switch it off" as you're suggesting. in fact, the ability to do this at all suggests an exceptional neurological structure we generally refer to as psychopathy. You should look into this, it's not intrinsically a bad thing, so don't take it as an insult. It's just a facet of how people's brains can work.


    To add on to this, a lot of trolls do in fact know this, and weaponize it against the victims as another vector from which to make them feel devalued, and even to blame themselves for being unable to "switch it off." The whole "stop taking it so seriously" thing, spoken both by the harasser and those supporting the harasser, can manage to pile up an unhealthy amount of guilt in the victim on top of the harassment already going on. It's a sickening thing, but trolls and bigots have toxicity down pat to such a degree that many bystanders would even doubt that such layers of nuance even exist or are intentional. This obviously isn't to say that everyone who says "calm down, it's just a joke" means to devalue the victim intentionally... but it's very much a weapon in the harassers' arsenal that too often goes overlooked.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Christine Sprankle and Harassment in the MTG Community
    Quote from RxPhantom »
    However, this noble goal of self-reflection you espouse is undermined when the rules of engagement boil down to "agree or don't post."


    If someone can't agree that hatred and misogyny have no place on MTGSalvation, then there's no place on MTGSalvation for them. Speaking in defense of those things is not "healthy discourse" and we aren't going to play some kind of false equivalency game and pretend otherwise.
    Posted in: Magic General
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