Okay, I have a new and revised decklist that is pretty fun. I think that it could definitely use a revamp, though. I have proxied it a bit, but I tend to get screwed a fair portion of the time. I should probably get rid of my metalworker combo, but I don't know how to reasonably replace it.
I haven't been on in a while, so i just saw this. Did you try to run this deck? Proxy it? Did it work for you if you did? Was it fun? I think the list looks fun.
It was pretty fun, but I found that it's mana curve really isn't right. It ends up taking too long with expensive cards like Liliana Vess. I don't really think that she has a place in this deck, although she can be fun. Do you have any recommendations for these problems?
OK, a slight off-topic piece but "potentially... budget" doesn't belong with Demonic Tutors, Sol Rings, and Metalworker, ok?
Looks like you are getting some good help though, so nothing else to add for now.
I am really new to this forum and didn't quite understand what people meant by saying "budget." I assumed that a budget deck was one with a 'budget' and not just a cheap deck. In my first post I say that I don't want to spend more than $150. I see your point, though.
raffinity is faster, and if you want combo absolutely well blue is your color and storm would indeed be the best way
but your deck looks cool i don't have time now otherwise i would have made a list
Is it possible that you could help me convert this deck to blue or partially to blue while keeping lots of great combos? I tested it out a few times and I generally get fairly mana screwed. This should probably be a consideration for recreation. Some of those cards cost too much for the shallow mana base. Thanks for the help.
Quote from snrlx »
Is it possible that you could help me convert this deck to blue or partially to blue while keeping lots of great combos? I tested it out a few times and I generally get fairly mana screwed. This should probably be a consideration for recreation. Some of those cards cost too much for the shallow mana base. Thanks for the help.
If anyone can help with blue conversion of this deck, that would be very useful. I have little experience in this field.
So, my question to you is this. Do you think that you could help build the best Vintage legal budget deck ever? I'm thinking that one could make a deck for $300 or less that could almost certainly win T2 every time. Do you think something Meandeck Tendrils-esque would work with this budget? I'm thinking that with proper mana acceleration we could do this. The first thing to consider are the fastest easiest combos. I just found in another thread the combo of Grindstone and Painter's Servant. I have to rank this 6 mana combo as one of the fastest that I have seen. Angel's Grace can combo with lots of cards like Ad Nauseum and Channel, although I haven't researched enough to see if it can combo for an instant win for a small amount of mana. Possibly something with Intruder Alarm? Any ideas are welcome.
I'm not sure if you want to include something else with as high of a mana cost as this, but Catapult Master is a really great card. If you are getting those weenies out there fast enough then you can forcefully push their huge monsters off of the board.
I think that blueballs is right about decks like this trying to do too many things. You should try to keep this deck to be almost all milling. I really like your Grindstone/Painter's Servant combo. I think you could develop on this combo and utilize some more of Painter's Servant's potential. Also, you should almost certainly have Guiltfeeder as said before.
Okay, here is he other thing, I would recommend making this deck Vintage legal. Next, before you go out and buy cards, use Proxies. If by chance you don't know what a proxy is, its when you write on a slip of paper a card and what it does and put that over something like a plains and sleeve it up in your deck. With these fake cards, play games against yourself, and ask fiends if they are okay with proxies because you are testing out ideas and don't want to spend money if you don't like the idea.
Now I would also recommend you rethink your combo a little. Right off the bat, your example has you drawing 3 dark rituals in your opening hand. That is SO rare it's silly to be honest. That, and if you expect to draw three dark rituals, you might as well buy yourself a copy of Yawgmoth's Will and Tendrils of Agony. Okay, you should buy those cards anyway, especially the Will because they are Bah-roken. If you don't get where I am going with this example: You play swamp, ritual x3 [3 spells and 7mana] Demonic tutor [4 spells 5 mana] for Yawgmoth's Will, play it [5 spells 2 mana,] play all three rituals again from your grave yard [8 spells 8 mana,] play the Demonic tutor from your grave yard [9 spells 6 mana] to find the Tendrils of Agony and cast that [10th spell, you win.]
My point is you rarely get god hands, and if you are going to get a god hand, why not get you one that wins you the game? outside of this, I really don't see the point of Pentavus being in your deck honestly. I get the impression that you really want to focus on an infinite mana/magma mine combo. The problem is, your deck has all these cards that don't help you get there or find it [okay, you have 3 more tutors than you are allowed, but that isn't my point.]
Might I suggest that instead of trying to play with Pentavus, Ashnod's Alter, Extruder, and Sadistic Glee, you think about cutting all of that and use Leyline of the Void with Helm of Obedience? If you don't see the combo, you set the Helm to 1, but because Leyline is in play, a card never hits the graveyard, so you repeat until they run out of cards. This is a two card combo that doesn't cost that much money to buy; Leyline can come into play at the start of the game, so you can go off pretty quickly for only 5 man; The leyline is also greatbecasue it hates on your opponents graveyard and keeps them from possibly using some sick combos on you; These two cards fit your deck's theme of Black/artifact combo; Finally, the Helm counts as an artifact for metal worker.
So far that is only 49 cards. We have 11 spaces to fill. I would suggest looking at Duress, Hymn to Tourach and Serum Powder. You see, with Serum Powder you can aggressively mulligan into your combos, and it counts as an artifact for Metal Worker. Also, you may notice I increased the number of magma mines. It doesn't hurt to have extra in hand for metal worker.
Also, regarding Demonic Consultation, it may look bad to you at first, but this card is amazing, more so when you are running 4 copies of cards. it's all about getting that second card in your combo in your hand as consistently as possible. There is a reason it is restricted to one copy. Imagine you have leyline in hand and a demonc consultation. You just play it at the end of your opponent's turn when they least expect it to find your combo piece, untap, draw, and go off.
Thank you a TON. That's a sweet combo. With a ton of luck, one could win the game on the first turn. (Two Dark Rituals, though) What do you think of this as a revised decklist? I added 4 Umbral Mantles as a bonus combo. If I have Metalworker out for a turn and equip Umbral Mantle with two or more artifacts in my hand I get infinite mana and an infinitely powerful Metalworker. I also added 3 more Lilianas. I'll proxy this and see how it goes. What do you think?
When I think artifact + black, I think su-chi or cathodion with culling the weak. Great for an early sadistic sacrament or whatever. Su-chi may not fit into the realm of "Budget" tho, however post mana burn Su and the Cathodion are bomb bomb.
Also, props on having magma mine as a win con.
Ha. Thanks. (I would actually rather have something useful, but it works. :))
I'm not sure if I want little combos like that. The speed of that combo isn't particularly great and I wouldn't want to sacrifice something in the deck for a lesser combo. Do you think there's a good way to fit that in without slowing the deck down?
You know, Rings of Brighthearth or Power Artifact with Basalt Monolith may be just as fast, or faster of an infinite mana combo as yours is. I like it better because it doesn't require a creature that can be killed to go off, or summoning sickness.
Wow. That's a sweet combo. I wasn't aware of that before. However, how do you think I would want to switch my deck around in order to accommodate for 4 Rings of Brighthearth and 4 Basalt Monoliths? Also, just getting infinite mana doesn't cause me to win the game, I need something to kill my opponent with. Any ideas?
So I see what's going on with Sadistic Glee and Pentavus. But if you think about it, after forcing out a 7 mana artifact by jumping through some hoops you now got "2: put a +1/+1 counter on Pentavus". That seems... meh. And the combo with Ashnod's Altar relatively disruptable; just shatter/doom blade the pentavus while Ashnod's Altar is on the stack. Magma Mine seems like an incredibly sub-par way to kill anything, although I guess if you are pumping out mana via metalworker it isn't so bad (just as long as metalworker sticks, which any good player will try to keep from happening). Also, you don't need 9 tutors. I'd rather have some straight up card drawing like Night's Whisper over the 4 Diabolic Tutors which actually give a 2-for-1 advantage, come out sooner, tie up less mana, and give you more options. With 5 tutors left over, you got plenty of ways to assemble any missing piece of your combo. Also, why do you run Prismatic Lens? What mana do you need to fix? At 19 actual lands in your deck you're running pretty dangerously close to getting screwed with 0 or 1 land hands, and you always need at least a couple lands to get started even if your deck has rituals and mana artifacts. On that note, for broken mana artifacts, see Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, and Chrome Mox. Just in case Sol Ring wasn't bad enough.
In terms of a T3 win with any spell that's not P9, look at Disciple of the Vault + 2xSharuum of the Hegemon (infinite life loss) as one combo to pursue, or Disciple with some straight up aggressive Atog+Affinity action. Keep in mind though that like Metalworker, Sol Ring, and all your crazy mana cards, Disciple has a history of being banned hard. Another avenue might be Tinkering a Seat of the Synod for a Darksteel Colossus on turn 1 or 3 or something. Also Goblin Welder has a history of being broken in half, but I can't think of any ways how right now.
For something a little more fair and in my own realm of familiarity, there is Phalactry Lich + Dark Ritual + Vault of Whispers as a neat turn 1 play. Although its no turn 3 winning strategy, a 5/5 indestructible T1 is nothing to scoff at. Cranial Plating has also loved being friends with artifacts and black, found most often in Affinity decks. Speaking of affinity, straight up artifact beatdowns is probably the least expensive way to make an amazing artifact deck with Myr Enforcer, Thoughtcast, and especially Arcbound Ravager. Disciple of the Vault made the entire deck bannable with sac outlets so since you like breaking things in half include that too.
My bottom line:
My main point is that while the amazing cards are bannably amazing (Metalworker, Sol Ring, Vampiric Tutor, etc.) the actual Pentavus combo is unwieldy and unreliable to me, and the amazing Metalworker could be put to better use with a more solid combo. How about Goblin Welder + Mindslaver? You get out welder T1, T2 you get metalworker, T3 Metalworker can cast out the slaver and you can start creating an infinite lock. Or T1 Mana Crypt and land cast a Metalworker that T2 reveals 5 artifacts to cast Darksteel Colossus or simply tinker away something for him? Not try and get three cards out at once and run a subpar creature enchantment that doesn't do anything on its own.
Thanks for the comment. I will definitely consider using Night's Whisper. I'm sorry for not explaining my combos better. The whole point in having Magma Mine is that if I get Staff of Domination and Metalworker on the field for a full turn I win the game.
Here is an example of a game that I have played using these cards:
Everything basically builds to help me do this, however I also have another combo. The game can play out like this, keep in mind I would be ridiculously lucky as I describe it:
Turn 1: Opponent goes first and does stuff.
Turn 2: I draw (including my draw step): Swamp, Pentavus, Sadistic Glee, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ashnod's Altar, Swamp. I play a swamp and play three Dark Rituals for 7 mana. I play Pentavus.
Turn 3: Opponent wonders at my god draw.
Turn 4: I draw a Sol Ring. I untap my Swamp and play another. I tap one for a Sol Ring. I tap my Sol Ring and other Swamp to play Ashnod's Altar.
Turn 5: Opponent plays some bigger monster. Whatever.
Turn 6: I untap my Swamps, draw a Swamp, play it, and tap it. I play Sadistic Glee on Pentavus. I tap another Swamp to make a 1/1 token with Pentavus. I sacrifice it with Ashnod's Altar. I now have 2. Pentavus gains a +1/+1 counter bringing him back up to 5/5. I repeat this process once more so I have 4. (You may notice that I already have the potential for infinite mana) Now, I create another 1/1 with Pentavus and sacrifice it using his ability. Since he is enchanted with Sadistic Glee, this brings him up to 6/6. I continue this process for either an infinitely powerful Pentavus or an infinite number of flying Pentavites. I destroy my opponent.
So, anyway, with that in mind, are there any further tips that you can give me?
Does your group ascribe to any particular banned/restricted lists...
You've got some pretty broken tutors in there, and if you're going all out, Necropotence should certianly be in high count there. 4, if you're thowing all restrictions to the wind.
DRum
Yeah, I certainly have a broken card list. The only sort of restrictions we really have are restrictions on stuff like Power 9. Do you think that drawing a Necropotence will help me go fast enough? Thanks for the reply.
EDIT: I was just looking through a list of artifacts and I came upon Thousand-Year Elixir. Do you think this would go well with my deck, if so, what should I destroy for it? Also, if you don't think it would help, what do you think about Lightning Greaves?
I'm looking to make a superfast, casual, combo artifact deck. My current deck design is mostly stolen, but I have made a few improvements. It is as follows:
The only thing that I really want to hold in this deck is the Metalworker/Staff of Domination combo for infinite mana/life/cards. It might be nice to keep the Pentavus/Sadistic Glee to Ashnod's Altar combo, but it really isn't neccessary. I don't even think that this deck will have to be black if that would help it. Is there any way to optimize this deck for a one to three turn win every time? It works pretty well as is, but I wonder if it could be faster. Although I'm playing with illegal cards, I don't want to pay more than $150 for this deck. Keep in mind that it already costs $125. A couple of things that keep this deck's speed down is the summoning sickness on Metalworker and the potential for drawing mixed combo cards that are fairly useless in other context. A couple of things I was thinking about were the use of Doomsday, Necropotence, or Rhystic Tutor.
16 Swamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Liliana Vess
2 Plunge Into Darkness
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
2 Metal Worker
1 Magma Mine
2 Staff of Domination
2 Duress
2 Hymn to Tourach
It was pretty fun, but I found that it's mana curve really isn't right. It ends up taking too long with expensive cards like Liliana Vess. I don't really think that she has a place in this deck, although she can be fun. Do you have any recommendations for these problems?
I am really new to this forum and didn't quite understand what people meant by saying "budget." I assumed that a budget deck was one with a 'budget' and not just a cheap deck. In my first post I say that I don't want to spend more than $150. I see your point, though.
Is it possible that you could help me convert this deck to blue or partially to blue while keeping lots of great combos? I tested it out a few times and I generally get fairly mana screwed. This should probably be a consideration for recreation. Some of those cards cost too much for the shallow mana base. Thanks for the help.
If anyone can help with blue conversion of this deck, that would be very useful. I have little experience in this field.
merged.
blut
I think that blueballs is right about decks like this trying to do too many things. You should try to keep this deck to be almost all milling. I really like your Grindstone/Painter's Servant combo. I think you could develop on this combo and utilize some more of Painter's Servant's potential. Also, you should almost certainly have Guiltfeeder as said before.
Thank you a TON. That's a sweet combo. With a ton of luck, one could win the game on the first turn. (Two Dark Rituals, though) What do you think of this as a revised decklist? I added 4 Umbral Mantles as a bonus combo. If I have Metalworker out for a turn and equip Umbral Mantle with two or more artifacts in my hand I get infinite mana and an infinitely powerful Metalworker. I also added 3 more Lilianas. I'll proxy this and see how it goes. What do you think?
15 Swamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Liliana Vess
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Magma Mine
4 Staff of Domination
4 Umbral Mantle
4 Serum Powder
Ha. Thanks. (I would actually rather have something useful, but it works. :))
I'm not sure if I want little combos like that. The speed of that combo isn't particularly great and I wouldn't want to sacrifice something in the deck for a lesser combo. Do you think there's a good way to fit that in without slowing the deck down?
Wow. That's a sweet combo. I wasn't aware of that before. However, how do you think I would want to switch my deck around in order to accommodate for 4 Rings of Brighthearth and 4 Basalt Monoliths? Also, just getting infinite mana doesn't cause me to win the game, I need something to kill my opponent with. Any ideas?
Thanks for the comment. I will definitely consider using Night's Whisper. I'm sorry for not explaining my combos better. The whole point in having Magma Mine is that if I get Staff of Domination and Metalworker on the field for a full turn I win the game.
Here is an example of a game that I have played using these cards:
Turn 1: Opponent starts, plays land, something else, etc.
Turn 2: I have drawn Swamp, Dark Ritual, Metalworker, Staff of Domination, Sol Ring, Pentavus, Sol Ring. I draw and get a Prismatic Lens. I play my Swamp which I tap for Dark Ritual. I play Metalworker for my 3 mana.
Turn 3: Opponent does something boring with petty creatures.
Turn 4: I untap my Swamp and draw. I get an Extruder. I tap Metalworker and show my hand. It now contains: Staff of Domination, Sol Ring, Pentavus, Sol Ring, Prismatic Lens, and Extruder. I have 12 in my pool. I play Staff of Domination for 3. I now have 9. I pay 3 and tap Staff of Domination to untap Metalworker. I tap Metalworker. I now have 19. I pay one to untap Staff of Domination and the show goes on. I now have as much mana as I desire. I use Staff of Domination to gain an infinite amount of life for fun. I then use Staff of Domination to draw as many cards as I want. I eventually draw a Magma Mine. I play it for 1 of my infinite mana and then give it a trillion or so Pressure Counters. I tap and sacrifice to deal my opponent a ton of damage.
Everything basically builds to help me do this, however I also have another combo. The game can play out like this, keep in mind I would be ridiculously lucky as I describe it:
Turn 1: Opponent goes first and does stuff.
Turn 2: I draw (including my draw step): Swamp, Pentavus, Sadistic Glee, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ashnod's Altar, Swamp. I play a swamp and play three Dark Rituals for 7 mana. I play Pentavus.
Turn 3: Opponent wonders at my god draw.
Turn 4: I draw a Sol Ring. I untap my Swamp and play another. I tap one for a Sol Ring. I tap my Sol Ring and other Swamp to play Ashnod's Altar.
Turn 5: Opponent plays some bigger monster. Whatever.
Turn 6: I untap my Swamps, draw a Swamp, play it, and tap it. I play Sadistic Glee on Pentavus. I tap another Swamp to make a 1/1 token with Pentavus. I sacrifice it with Ashnod's Altar. I now have 2. Pentavus gains a +1/+1 counter bringing him back up to 5/5. I repeat this process once more so I have 4. (You may notice that I already have the potential for infinite mana) Now, I create another 1/1 with Pentavus and sacrifice it using his ability. Since he is enchanted with Sadistic Glee, this brings him up to 6/6. I continue this process for either an infinitely powerful Pentavus or an infinite number of flying Pentavites. I destroy my opponent.
So, anyway, with that in mind, are there any further tips that you can give me?
Yeah, I certainly have a broken card list. The only sort of restrictions we really have are restrictions on stuff like Power 9. Do you think that drawing a Necropotence will help me go fast enough? Thanks for the reply.
EDIT: I was just looking through a list of artifacts and I came upon Thousand-Year Elixir. Do you think this would go well with my deck, if so, what should I destroy for it? Also, if you don't think it would help, what do you think about Lightning Greaves?
I'm looking to make a superfast, casual, combo artifact deck. My current deck design is mostly stolen, but I have made a few improvements. It is as follows:
4 Sadistic Glee
4 Ashnod's Altar
4 Staff of Domination
2 Magma Mine
2 Extruder
4 Diabolic Tutor
4 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Sol Ring
2 Prismatic Lens
4 Metalworker
4 Dark Ritual
4 Vault of Whispers
15 Swamp
The only thing that I really want to hold in this deck is the Metalworker/Staff of Domination combo for infinite mana/life/cards. It might be nice to keep the Pentavus/Sadistic Glee to Ashnod's Altar combo, but it really isn't neccessary. I don't even think that this deck will have to be black if that would help it. Is there any way to optimize this deck for a one to three turn win every time? It works pretty well as is, but I wonder if it could be faster. Although I'm playing with illegal cards, I don't want to pay more than $150 for this deck. Keep in mind that it already costs $125. A couple of things that keep this deck's speed down is the summoning sickness on Metalworker and the potential for drawing mixed combo cards that are fairly useless in other context. A couple of things I was thinking about were the use of Doomsday, Necropotence, or Rhystic Tutor.
Thank you for all of your help.