Around the last time I posted here, a few people tried to get MSE building and were ultimately unsuccessful. Interest petered out and the effort stalled.
However, I am working on this again and in earnest. I realized that revitalizing the MSE code really isn't the right first step. MSE makes set files and those can be converted into whatever format we need with a small shim program like the one I already made. The more important next step is bringing up a custom card repository. So for the last few weeks I've been learning SQL and the Django web framework to get something prototyped. I have no experience in web design so this is going to take me a little while... unless someone with experience wants to lend a hand.
Also, very exciting, I met a very experienced professional programmer who is now tearing MSE apart. The plan is (again) to revitalize it so we can extend it to suit the purposes of this effort. Anyone interested in helping please shoot me a PM.
Yes, that Reserve ability sounds pretty cool. It and the hideaway mechanic coincide with the concept of "desert treasures" that I had in mind. Basically the desert sand can conceal and bury many great treasures and mysteries underneath. So it's up to the yellow mage to learn to uncover these secrets and yield them.
Which leads to enchant lands as yellow's unique domain in the color pie. The secret cards are placed face-down underneath a land. Then through some manipulation or circumstance, the cards will reveal themselves. Either you put them into play or your hand, or something. These enchant lands are also yellow's major arsenal. Where green and white feature creatures, red and blue cast instants and sorceries, likewise yellow will master the land-based auras.
I want to talk about this. This was actually the original idea I had for yellow (although I called them "monuments" instead of actual land enchantments), but I abandoned it because it's so hard for other colors to interact with lands. I just thought it would stifle player interactions too much. How would you propose to handle this issue?
But just playing them on lands is not enough. Yellow enchantments can and will have abilities that tap the enchantment. Flavorwise, these are mirages and other forces of natures that allow the yellow mages to interact with other permanents. These enchantments embody the forces of time, myths, and illusions. For instance, an aura that slowly erodes the land, or messes with the land's mana production, or a tapped ability that debilitates a creature.
I very much like the idea of this but again I never proposed it here because I thought people would rip me a new one for allowing enchantments to tap (there's a certain respect for the status quo here which I still don't fully understand). I'm really glad someone else is thinking this way.
Sand Box 2
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant land you control
When this enters the battlefield, exile the top 3 cards of your library face-down underneath the enchanted land.
{3}, {T}: Look at the cards underneath enchanted land. Put one of them into your hand.
I modified this away from being a keyword just to see what we think. What do you think?
Sand Trap
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant land you control
Buried treasure (When this enters the battlefield, put the top 3 cards of your library face-down underneath the enchanted land.)
{T}, Tap enchanted land if it's untapped: ~ deals 1 damage to target attacking or blocking creature. If a creature dealt damage this way would die this turn, you may put a card underneath enchanted land into your hand.
I like this a lot. I would suggest a different keyword though because "buried treasure" makes me think specifically about pirates. How about "Cache"?
Exile the top 6 cards of your library in a pile face down and place 4 time counters on them. Remove a time counter from the pile in each of your upkeeps, then if there are no time counters on the pile, choose up to three cards from that pile and put them into your hand. (the rest remain exiled)
I like this, and it's not just Ancestral Vision because you get to choose which cards you take at the end. Probably should cost more mana though.
A nice thing to give a home in Yellow would be exile. I know white has a nice stake on it already, but its more concerned with exiling creatures, with some artifact/enchantment exile.
Yellow could provide the gap in exile 'interaction' that white lacks, such as exiling artifacts, using exile with time counters (suspend away a creature for 3 turns so it is 'lost') and cards that rely on having an exiled card like M15's Warden of the Beyond.
~snip~
I feel like the theme of finding what is lost in the desert should also carry over to things getting lost in the desert in the first place. Of course it doesn't need to be a major theme or anything, but, if your going to have things like suspend and time counters exiling other stuff makes sense too.
I like this idea because white has a weirdly large slice of the pie lately, and because the mechanic fits the color. On the other hand, I wonder if "Shuffle ~ into your library" wouldn't be even better. It steps less on white's toes, has a similarly useful effect, and could be used on oneself for interesting effects.
My one complaint (for the whole archetype, although I'm not sure if its just your cards using it) is the supertype 'Sand'. I get that it could promote interaction with sand-permanents, but so does the fact that the cards are colored yellow to begin with. I mean, I guess it depends on how yellow is implemented. If its only one set (like Ice Age's snow), then it would work, but if its a sort of permanent addition type thing then its more of a hindrance then anything.
Yep, the supertype is a step backwards.
Agreed. This should, if anything, be a one-set mechanic and probably shouldn't be called "sand" as it's too generic.
but you also seem to have a lot of vanilla and not so interesting cards shown here.
Have you looked at the original post where I've been adding cards as people propose/refine them? Here's one I think Is quite "interesting"
Cross the Nefud 2YY
Enchantment (U)
Vanishing 2
When ~ comes into play tap any number of untapped creatures you control. They do not untap during their controller's untap step.
When the last time counter is removed from ~, untap all creatures tapped by ~. They are unblockable this turn.
I also completely agree with what was said earlier in the thread; How do you represent Yellow in a Non - Arabian/Desert theme? In Theros/Innistrad, for example, where would the Yellow Mana come from?
That's like asking where blue mana comes from in a non Carribean Vacation themed set. If there can be islands in Innistrad there can be deserts as well. There's nothing intrinsically "Arabian" about a desert; Phoenix Arizona is in a desert. As for being Non-Desert themed... isn't that like asking about blue cards which are non-island themed?
can yellow steal, or affect opponent's permanents?
I was thinking of effects like this (taken from the catalog in the OP)
Curiosity Shop 2Y
Enchantment (R)
1Y: All players place a card from their hand face down under Curiosity Shop.
2: Take a random card from under Curiosity Shop and put it into your hand. Any player may play this ability.
If Curiosity Shop leaves play exile all cards underneath it.
Of course, putting other players' cards into your hand is not allowed normally, but I think this would be a fun type of effect. Any ideas on how to improve it?
Wondering Scarab 1Y
Creature - Scarab
Sacrifice ~: put a sand counter on target atacking unblocked creature, only use this ability if you have no untapped creatures.
(permanents with sand tokens on them are deserts)
0/1
As much as I think the sand counter thing was a misstep, I think this card stands on its own. I really like this because one of the evergreen mechanics I think yellow should have is landwalk, and particularly desertwalk. The problem, of course, is that lands are hard to interact with, so how does the opponent respond to the threat imposed by having an unwanted desert?
@Horseshoe_Hermit: I have PMed you a rebuttal to your criticism. I decided to not post it here because this thread probably won't really benefit from ongoing argumentation about whether yellow is a good idea. I think we're pretty far past that now. Just look at the cards that have been proposed and I think you'll see that they're really not within the sphere or black or any other color.
Quote from Horseshoe_Hermit »
Paranoia?
That's definitely getting close. Yellow mages are paranoid at their worst.
I had a notion for a card, adapted from one of SecretInfiltrator's prior ideas:
Very well - would you mind sharing your images for the frames, mana symbols, and watermarks if you have them? I'm not sure what exactly I'll do with them, but I'm interested.
"Survival" means prioritizing it above all else. Valuing unexpected potential means investing in it even to an apparent loss. One of these values must defeat the other.
I think I understand what you're saying about the conflict between survival and valuing unexpected potential. Still, my intuition says these are not really at odds. The idea is inspired by a creature that lives in a harsh environment. Survival is its main occupation. To achieve this it learns to find value in the seemingly valueless: there is water inside that hard-skinned plant covered with thorns. With no trees for wood to build a shelter, one must look to the potential of the already existing landscape. Get the idea?
as a replacement to introverted, how about conformist? Yellow mages tend to go along with the crowd, never coming up with brilliant ideas until they eventually Fade into Antiquity
I'm trying to base the thematic elements on the lifestyle of a desert dwelling creature. "Conformist" isn't really the right characteristic, because it implies the existence of some kind of social norm. "Introverted" is close; I think we need a word that expresses the idea that Yellow mages don't share information readily. I think "selfish" might be the right word here.
You could even do a upkeep removal card, if you want to to do the sands of time idea a la Eon Hub.
Otherwise, I like the idea that the yellow creatures get blown away by vanishing. Pretty cool idea, and I think I want to be included in the project :).
I like the Eon Hub idea. Do you have anything particular suitable to Yellow in mind?
If you want to be involved posting ideas here seems like the way to go. If you really want to get into it I can share my database with you and we can focus on releasing an Alpha set, or something to that effect. PM me if you want to go that route. I have played with Yellow cards casually and it's been great. Very good reception from other players.
There are twothree major issues with your yellow, bothall of which involve confusion. The first of these is the one MaRo always harps on, and why yellow can't happen at all: the existence of a yellow/gold frame for multicolored cards. The second reason is {Y} already exists as part of the mana alphabet (xy). Thus, the use of {Y} for any color would mess up the rules beyond belief. The third issue is your hourglass mana symbol. The hourglass is used as a set symbol for Time Spiral. Magic Set Editor uses {L} and a lightning bolt for yellow because of thisthese.
Regarding the multicolored gold card frames, I really don't think they look much like the yellow frame I've been using. Check the original post, I attached an example frame there.
...please make him change ... the mana symbol to something other than an hourglass.
Why are you talking about me as if I'm not here?
I solicited suggestions for the mana symbol from the community here, and the responses I got strongly favored the hourglass. I do like it, but I always felt it was slightly too specific to be a good mana symbol. If you look at post #18 you can see my original idea for the symbol. It was discarded as looking too much like . I do not like the lightning bolt, but if you have another suggestion please share.
Perhaps, the code could be {D} for desert and the symbol a scorpion since orange is already using a camel.
That's actually how I have MSE set up. I didn't use {D} here because I thought it would confuse people. As for orange/scorpion, I don't really like it. The scorpion is somewhat too specific, and orange is kind of ugly IMO. Can others weigh in on this?
This was back in 2012? I'm sorry I missed it. This whole project is a wonderful examination of extending the mechanics and thematics of Black. I would be very happy to see these ideas used to increment the depth of black designs (and the designs of Black characters).
I see Yellow as sitting in between black and blue. Blue's pie section is kind of big.
Some of the concepts, however, are in conflict. Is Yellow about recognizing unexpected potential, or about survival? One of these has to be more prime than the other. If it is the latter, Yellow is only a variant on Black (but nonetheless interesting). If it is the former, this is a personality somewhere in the midpoint of Blue and Black.
I think survival and unexpected potential are actually very complementary characteristics. Why do you suggest that Yellow must center around a single thematic element? Do other colors do so?
I am extremely happy to announce that as part of the recent efforts to get MSE up and into active development one of the guys I've been working with has made a Mac build! He's testing basic functionality, so the program should be available shortly. He (or I if he doesn't want) will post here when it's released and will also post on the MSE website forums.
Posted a new version of of the xml converter that allows the url path for image files. If someone wants to test it and let me know if they like it that would be useful. It's on the Sourceforge page but not as the default Windows download. Here's a link to the Windows downloads page. Pick the one with -internetTest if you want to try that. Note that there are instructions inside the zip archive.
-Picture URL automator: When converting to the cockatrice xml format you currently just use a local directory system, which is fine for local testing but makes online play with friends difficult.
So was wondering if you could have it generate picture URL's if you put in a base directory.
EG: If I own http://examplesite.com/ I could put all my exported card images to http://examplesite.com/images/{cardname}.jpg
Then If I could input the http://examplesite.com/images URL to your program when converting it would automatically generate the required URL for each card allowing me to play with my custom sets online with far greater ease.
Sure, that's easy to do. I will have some time this weekend. If you would please submit a ticket to the sourceforge project that will help me remember to actually do it. I also need to fix a bug with the way the image file names are generated.
I am very happy to report that I've sucessfully built MSE on Linux and a collaborator has built on Windows with Visual Studio. As soon as we get a build working with mingw for Windows I will build in the new code and release it. When the Lotus team gets their stuff together or daenyth starts returning my emails we'll get on online gaming system compatible with the MSE updates and away we go.
I've written the code to allow MSE to save sets in more or less whatever format we want. Yes! I am now at the stage of trying to actually build the program. This has turned out to be something of a challenge for me due largely to the fact that I'm unfamiliar with GNU autotools. I have, however, met a very generous fellow who is now helping with the process so I'm hopeful to have good news in the next days or weeks. I also found some folks willing to join the project so it's possible we'll be picking up speed in the near future.
Again, if you're interested in really digging in and helping just post here or PM me. In particular at the moment I could use help from anyone who understands how to build programs in a Linux environment. I'm using MinGW on a Windows computer, but I think my problems at this point are actually dump little things about how I'm using MinGW's gcc.
I've now figured out the Magic Set Editor file I/O code and I'm re-implementing the necessary classes to write MSE sets in a more sane format. This should be done in the reasonably near future.
If anyone out here is interested in helping please PM me. I'm willing to spend time explaining the code and helping you learn C++. This would be a lot of fun and give you skills that will serve you for the rest of your life.
I would like to give a quick update here as lots of exciting things are happening.
I have been working with Twan and another developer to get MSE to save and load a JSON based card format. This will allow MSE to directly interface with a public repository and other programs. MSE is pretty complicated so this is taking me longer than I expected, but I am making steady progress.
I am also now in communication with a dev team committed to updating and expanding Cockatrice. Our goals include improving the GUI, and updating the data management system to be more modular. I will be working to get Cockatrice compatible with the universal format. Brukie is working on this which is good news because he knows the code base better than anyone.
These two projects will take some time but they are the cornerstones of accomplishing what I set out to do. If anyone wants to get involved drop me a PM or just post here.
This is part of the plan.
Around the last time I posted here, a few people tried to get MSE building and were ultimately unsuccessful. Interest petered out and the effort stalled.
However, I am working on this again and in earnest. I realized that revitalizing the MSE code really isn't the right first step. MSE makes set files and those can be converted into whatever format we need with a small shim program like the one I already made. The more important next step is bringing up a custom card repository. So for the last few weeks I've been learning SQL and the Django web framework to get something prototyped. I have no experience in web design so this is going to take me a little while... unless someone with experience wants to lend a hand.
Also, very exciting, I met a very experienced professional programmer who is now tearing MSE apart. The plan is (again) to revitalize it so we can extend it to suit the purposes of this effort. Anyone interested in helping please shoot me a PM.
I want to talk about this. This was actually the original idea I had for yellow (although I called them "monuments" instead of actual land enchantments), but I abandoned it because it's so hard for other colors to interact with lands. I just thought it would stifle player interactions too much. How would you propose to handle this issue?
I very much like the idea of this but again I never proposed it here because I thought people would rip me a new one for allowing enchantments to tap (there's a certain respect for the status quo here which I still don't fully understand). I'm really glad someone else is thinking this way.
I modified this away from being a keyword just to see what we think. What do you think?
I like this a lot. I would suggest a different keyword though because "buried treasure" makes me think specifically about pirates. How about "Cache"?
I like this, and it's not just Ancestral Vision because you get to choose which cards you take at the end. Probably should cost more mana though.
I like this idea because white has a weirdly large slice of the pie lately, and because the mechanic fits the color. On the other hand, I wonder if "Shuffle ~ into your library" wouldn't be even better. It steps less on white's toes, has a similarly useful effect, and could be used on oneself for interesting effects.
Agreed. This should, if anything, be a one-set mechanic and probably shouldn't be called "sand" as it's too generic.
Please do.
Have you looked at the original post where I've been adding cards as people propose/refine them? Here's one I think Is quite "interesting"
Cross the Nefud 2YY
Enchantment (U)
Vanishing 2
When ~ comes into play tap any number of untapped creatures you control. They do not untap during their controller's untap step.
When the last time counter is removed from ~, untap all creatures tapped by ~. They are unblockable this turn.
Right, that's why I use this forum. You know... to get other people's input and refine rough ideas into finished ones.
I like the sap mechanic and the cards you proposed. Isolationism and Song of Scrying are compelling and I particularly like the foray into multicolor.
I provide a nice yellow card frame in the OP and a mana symbol later on in the thread.
That's like asking where blue mana comes from in a non Carribean Vacation themed set. If there can be islands in Innistrad there can be deserts as well. There's nothing intrinsically "Arabian" about a desert; Phoenix Arizona is in a desert. As for being Non-Desert themed... isn't that like asking about blue cards which are non-island themed?
I can live with that. I'm playing with friends here, not submitting to WotC
I was thinking of effects like this (taken from the catalog in the OP)
Curiosity Shop 2Y
Enchantment (R)
1Y: All players place a card from their hand face down under Curiosity Shop.
2: Take a random card from under Curiosity Shop and put it into your hand. Any player may play this ability.
If Curiosity Shop leaves play exile all cards underneath it.
Of course, putting other players' cards into your hand is not allowed normally, but I think this would be a fun type of effect. Any ideas on how to improve it?
As much as I think the sand counter thing was a misstep, I think this card stands on its own. I really like this because one of the evergreen mechanics I think yellow should have is landwalk, and particularly desertwalk. The problem, of course, is that lands are hard to interact with, so how does the opponent respond to the threat imposed by having an unwanted desert?
That's definitely getting close. Yellow mages are paranoid at their worst.
I had a notion for a card, adapted from one of SecretInfiltrator's prior ideas:
Creature thingy DD
Creature - thingy (C)
Protection from yellow.
Desertwalk
1/1
I like the idea that Yellow shares something like the Spreading Seas effect with blue, so this card seemed reasonable.
Sent you a PM.
Sure. How to share?
I think I understand what you're saying about the conflict between survival and valuing unexpected potential. Still, my intuition says these are not really at odds. The idea is inspired by a creature that lives in a harsh environment. Survival is its main occupation. To achieve this it learns to find value in the seemingly valueless: there is water inside that hard-skinned plant covered with thorns. With no trees for wood to build a shelter, one must look to the potential of the already existing landscape. Get the idea?
I'm trying to base the thematic elements on the lifestyle of a desert dwelling creature. "Conformist" isn't really the right characteristic, because it implies the existence of some kind of social norm. "Introverted" is close; I think we need a word that expresses the idea that Yellow mages don't share information readily. I think "selfish" might be the right word here.
I like the Eon Hub idea. Do you have anything particular suitable to Yellow in mind?
If you want to be involved posting ideas here seems like the way to go. If you really want to get into it I can share my database with you and we can focus on releasing an Alpha set, or something to that effect. PM me if you want to go that route. I have played with Yellow cards casually and it's been great. Very good reception from other players.
Regarding the multicolored gold card frames, I really don't think they look much like the yellow frame I've been using. Check the original post, I attached an example frame there.
Mana letter and symbol discussed below.
So... ask! I've contacted you several times before in my quest to hack MSE* so we're more or less best friends now. You can call me any time
* So far only partially successful. If anyone here is an experienced C++ developer please let me know. I'll pay you for help.
Why are you talking about me as if I'm not here?
I solicited suggestions for the mana symbol from the community here, and the responses I got strongly favored the hourglass. I do like it, but I always felt it was slightly too specific to be a good mana symbol. If you look at post #18 you can see my original idea for the symbol. It was discarded as looking too much like
That's actually how I have MSE set up. I didn't use {D} here because I thought it would confuse people. As for orange/scorpion, I don't really like it. The scorpion is somewhat too specific, and orange is kind of ugly IMO. Can others weigh in on this?
I agree. Any suggestions there?
I see Yellow as sitting in between black and blue. Blue's pie section is kind of big.
I think survival and unexpected potential are actually very complementary characteristics. Why do you suggest that Yellow must center around a single thematic element? Do other colors do so?
I am extremely happy to announce that as part of the recent efforts to get MSE up and into active development one of the guys I've been working with has made a Mac build! He's testing basic functionality, so the program should be available shortly. He (or I if he doesn't want) will post here when it's released and will also post on the MSE website forums.
Sure, that's easy to do. I will have some time this weekend. If you would please submit a ticket to the sourceforge project that will help me remember to actually do it. I also need to fix a bug with the way the image file names are generated.
Yes.
This makes me very happy. Thanks for the encouraging words.
Working on it
That was indeed the point
I've written the code to allow MSE to save sets in more or less whatever format we want. Yes! I am now at the stage of trying to actually build the program. This has turned out to be something of a challenge for me due largely to the fact that I'm unfamiliar with GNU autotools. I have, however, met a very generous fellow who is now helping with the process so I'm hopeful to have good news in the next days or weeks. I also found some folks willing to join the project so it's possible we'll be picking up speed in the near future.
Again, if you're interested in really digging in and helping just post here or PM me. In particular at the moment I could use help from anyone who understands how to build programs in a Linux environment. I'm using MinGW on a Windows computer, but I think my problems at this point are actually dump little things about how I'm using MinGW's gcc.
I've now figured out the Magic Set Editor file I/O code and I'm re-implementing the necessary classes to write MSE sets in a more sane format. This should be done in the reasonably near future.
If anyone out here is interested in helping please PM me. I'm willing to spend time explaining the code and helping you learn C++. This would be a lot of fun and give you skills that will serve you for the rest of your life.
I have been working with Twan and another developer to get MSE to save and load a JSON based card format. This will allow MSE to directly interface with a public repository and other programs. MSE is pretty complicated so this is taking me longer than I expected, but I am making steady progress.
I am also now in communication with a dev team committed to updating and expanding Cockatrice. Our goals include improving the GUI, and updating the data management system to be more modular. I will be working to get Cockatrice compatible with the universal format. Brukie is working on this which is good news because he knows the code base better than anyone.
These two projects will take some time but they are the cornerstones of accomplishing what I set out to do. If anyone wants to get involved drop me a PM or just post here.