Oh wow I never even considered the synergy between Oren-Rief and Finks, that is awesome! Can you imagine casting Damnation with two finks on the board and then +1ing both of them once they persist? Will definitely be trying out at least 1 in the main. May even be worth playing a 25th land if you're also running manlands.
So the other new inclusions are the vastwoods and bow of nylea. Both have crazy good synergy with finks. Bow I feel is already a borderline maindeck inclusion and the added synergy in this shell might just push it into maindeck territory. It breaks board stalls with deathtouch and +1/+1 counters, makes endless reoccurring finks, actively combats grave strategies and souls, trumps opposing oozes, makes villages and garruk tokens 4/4's, and grinds by recycling spent cards like snaps/damnation etc. Bow and vastwood also cancel out lightning bolts on swagtusks/villages/beast tokens. The only downside is the amount of removal that can hit bow which I kinda touched on above.
It can only target your own GY Though the card does seem interesting. The fact that it shoots down Delvers, Cliques, and Bitterblossom tokens isn't irrelevant.
I have been considering trying Bitterblossom as well, and would fit in nicely with a list with Finks. Is the Garruk synergy being referred to due to his overrun effect?
On the midrange topic I really feel like ooze's and finks are some of the best creatures green has right now. Finks in particular are incredibly annoying. They are great at anti LotV duty and protecting your own PWs. Plus you can use them with discards/counter setup to bait out PtE and make it look pretty bad when you respond with an early fatty.
Completely agree with you. Finks in particular is a very annoying card to deal with, especially for a deck like ours that wants to consistently trade 1-for-1s. PtE is one of the better answers to it, and baiting your opponent to waste one on a Finks when you will conceivably have Tasigur and Thragtusk to close out the game seems very strong. They also give the deck a much better shot at the Burn matchup, serving as both a speed bump for their creatures and a vitamin.
I have been brewing with the intention of gearing the deck towards a more controlling build, piggybacking off of your comments about Tarmogoyf. I still love the card, but as you mentioned, if we are truly going for a gameplan of slowing grinding our opponents, I don't think they really fit. I also like the idea of putting the deck in a position where Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay are at best sub-optimal answers to our threats and at worst will completely blank them. This strategy is not as conducive to running Ooze but certainly makes Thrun, the Last Troll an attractive option.
- Not sure about the counter suite. Stubborn Denial is not really viable in the deck so I'm playing a one-of Spell Pierce instead. Disdainful Stroke is underrated IMO as it counters Siege Rhino, Cryptic Command, Splinter Twin, Collected Company, Tasigur, and a slew of other cards. I almost want to up the count but I'm aware that it will be a straight up dead card in certain matchups like Burn and Merfolk. Even the one-of may be incorrect.
- Engineered Explosives serves as another versatile sweeper, but Drown in Sorrow may be a better choice
- The absence of discard is an obvious diversion from the original decklist, and follows the desire to create a more control-oriented build. I feel that without Tarmogoyf they aren't necessarily worth including
- I really want to run a copy or two of Phyrexian Arena to add some card advantage to the deck, but I hate that it 1. does nothing the turn it comes into play and 2. is a Decay target. It was mentioned that 2 Compulsive Research may be too clunky. What are some other options here? Another Jace AoT?
- I was trying to think of some other options for win-conditions outside of creatures and Ashiok, and Jace, Memory Adept came to mind. His 0 ability will make short work of an opponent and we have Snapcasters and Finks to protect him, but he's vulnerable to direct damage. Is he even viable? Maybe as a SB option vs. other control decks?
Would appreciate any feedback on the deck, including land breakdown.
Edit: Was supposed to be Jace AoT in the main, oops!
I have a hard enough time justifying running Garruk, Primal Hunter in the SB with its casting cost (still don't like it). I guess if you really wanted to you could add some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth but our mana base is already so fragile and at that point I agree you should probably just be running B/G.
Thanks for your list, dominus. Personally I think Tarmogoyf is the best card in the deck, and turn 1 discard into turn 2 goyf is a beating. I do kind of like the idea of diversifying the threats in the deck so we don't get as blown out by Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. The problem is that there aren't a lot of low-cost threats in our color pie that are up to the power level of Tarmogoyf, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, or Snapcaster Mage. Several examples of possibilities, some of which has been mentioned:
Kitchen Finks - Another good form of life recovery to complement Thragtusk and an annoying card to deal with outside of Path to Exile. Has a bit of synergy with Damnation. The obvious issue is the prohibitive mana cost. I think Twilight Mire is necessary if you are running this.
Delver of Secrets - I think a Sultai Delver list could work, but it would look very different to this deck.
Vendilion Clique - Already played in many SB. I'm not really keen on running in maindeck with so many Lingering Souls and Lightning Bolt floating around, but if left unanswered will end the game quickly.
As much as I worry about anti-GY strategies, I don't think it's worth sacrificing the raw power of this deck's core creatures in order to protect yourself from it.
I think Ashiok serves the role of alternative win-con fairly well, but I wish we had something that fought a larger portion of the meta.
What are people's thoughts on Murmurs from Beyond over Compulsive Research? It's instant speed, will always net you 2 cards, and fuels Delve. I find when -2'ing Jace I am almost always choosing the 2 card pile largely to ensure I am gaining card advantage over an opponent with whom I am hopefully mostly trading 1-for-1s
I'm thinking this deck is in a decent position right now. It has a lot of game against Twin and Junk, which I think will be one of the two more popular choices at the upcoming GP in Charlotte. One card in particular I am worried about is Collected Company. It's a very scary card if it's resolved against us, even if it just for value. I am currently packing a pretty heavy removal suite with 2 Damnation, but I know this is the one card I am going to have to always have on my radar.
I understand the reservations playing discard and counters together, but I think it works great with this deck. IMO 1st turn IoK is your ideal play as you're able to craft the next several turns and decide if you want to play a proactive or reactive game.
I've been testing with a planeswalker suite of 2x Jace, Architect of Thought and 1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and have had solid results so far. Jace is just too good to only run 1 copy, especially when you are in top-deck mode and having it net +1 cards is huge. Tamiyo may seem like an odd choice, but her +1 can serve both a controlling or aggressive role and also is a nice answer to something the deck has a problem with: manlands. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is a bit of a pet card of mine, but I just don't think it proves that useful in many matchups other than Abzan and maybe Jund.
These spoiler threads are always painful to read. Filled with smug dismissals of others' opinions and incredibly overinflated views of card evaluation ability.
Personally, I like this card. It's versatile and I love instant speed discard. It certainly isn't pushed, but it isn't bad, either.
I have not played much against the deck myself, but I don't understand why it does not perform well. It has a lot of disruption to make combo matchups better favored, and has a ton of removal options (including sacrifice effects for TNN). What is it about the deck that keeps it on the fringes for the most part?
Question for you guys: do you think Daze is absolutely necessary in non-tempo lists? I'm a long time RUG player but I'm planning on running UR Delver at GP DC, going the heavier burn/Goblin Guide route. I'm tempted to run additional burn over Daze.
Will this man ever be able to get a decent job for the rest of his life? Even outside the obvious MTG blacklist, who's going to want to hire a convicted (provided he is convicted) or even accused workplace thief?
I'm a total noob when it comes to this deck so I apologize if this sounds dumb, but is Goblin Guide simply not a viable option? Maybe as a replacement for Mongoose? Is it bad because of its anti-synergy with Wasteland?
I know then name of the deck is Tempo Thresh so the one threshold creature is pretty much a mainstay, I'm just interested to see why GG is not considered.
Most Enchantress players are running both City of Solitude AND Choke main deck, and if they aren't, they should. Make good use of these.
City of Solitude, sure, but maindecking Choke seems a bit ambitious. I guess if you had a great read that the meta would be 70%+ blue decks it would be okay.
Delver is not a good matchup for Enchantress. It's beatable, but a turn 1 Delver/Goblin Guide with Daze backup is brutal. The deck just kills too fast for us to set up a lock, and they don't get hindered by Leyline of Sanctity nearly as much as mono-red burn. Delver is the main reason I run Phyrexian Unlife maindeck.
As for Sigarda, she seems like an interesting idea, but I really don't know if she's worth the inclusion. By the time you'd be able to play her, you should have things pretty wrapped up already. The only relevant threat I can see her protecting you from is a hardcast Emrakul, as we have ways to deal with him if they S&T.
[QUOTE=TheRogue;/comments/4052332]for black enchantress i'm temped to say killing wave might be playable for us. we got no creatures to sacrifice.
QUOTE]
As for Sigarda, she seems like an interesting idea, but I really don't know if she's worth the inclusion. By the time you'd be able to play her, you should have things pretty wrapped up already. The only relevant threat I can see her protecting you from is a hardcast Emrakul, as we have ways to deal with him if they S&T.
It can only target your own GY
I have been considering trying Bitterblossom as well, and would fit in nicely with a list with Finks. Is the Garruk synergy being referred to due to his overrun effect?
Completely agree with you. Finks in particular is a very annoying card to deal with, especially for a deck like ours that wants to consistently trade 1-for-1s. PtE is one of the better answers to it, and baiting your opponent to waste one on a Finks when you will conceivably have Tasigur and Thragtusk to close out the game seems very strong. They also give the deck a much better shot at the Burn matchup, serving as both a speed bump for their creatures and a vitamin.
I have been brewing with the intention of gearing the deck towards a more controlling build, piggybacking off of your comments about Tarmogoyf. I still love the card, but as you mentioned, if we are truly going for a gameplan of slowing grinding our opponents, I don't think they really fit. I also like the idea of putting the deck in a position where Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay are at best sub-optimal answers to our threats and at worst will completely blank them. This strategy is not as conducive to running Ooze but certainly makes Thrun, the Last Troll an attractive option.
This is what I've been testing with:
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grave Titan
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Thragtusk
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Leak
1 Disdainful Stroke
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 Go for the Throat
1 Compulsive Research
2 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
1 Twilight Mire
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Dragon's Claw
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Spellskite
3 Disfigure
2 Rain of Tears
1 Damnation
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Golgari Charm
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Some thoughts/questions:
- Not sure about the counter suite. Stubborn Denial is not really viable in the deck so I'm playing a one-of Spell Pierce instead. Disdainful Stroke is underrated IMO as it counters Siege Rhino, Cryptic Command, Splinter Twin, Collected Company, Tasigur, and a slew of other cards. I almost want to up the count but I'm aware that it will be a straight up dead card in certain matchups like Burn and Merfolk. Even the one-of may be incorrect.
- Engineered Explosives serves as another versatile sweeper, but Drown in Sorrow may be a better choice
- The absence of discard is an obvious diversion from the original decklist, and follows the desire to create a more control-oriented build. I feel that without Tarmogoyf they aren't necessarily worth including
- I really want to run a copy or two of Phyrexian Arena to add some card advantage to the deck, but I hate that it 1. does nothing the turn it comes into play and 2. is a Decay target. It was mentioned that 2 Compulsive Research may be too clunky. What are some other options here? Another Jace AoT?
- I was trying to think of some other options for win-conditions outside of creatures and Ashiok, and Jace, Memory Adept came to mind. His 0 ability will make short work of an opponent and we have Snapcasters and Finks to protect him, but he's vulnerable to direct damage. Is he even viable? Maybe as a SB option vs. other control decks?
Would appreciate any feedback on the deck, including land breakdown.
Edit: Was supposed to be Jace AoT in the main, oops!
Thanks for your list, dominus. Personally I think Tarmogoyf is the best card in the deck, and turn 1 discard into turn 2 goyf is a beating. I do kind of like the idea of diversifying the threats in the deck so we don't get as blown out by Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. The problem is that there aren't a lot of low-cost threats in our color pie that are up to the power level of Tarmogoyf, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, or Snapcaster Mage. Several examples of possibilities, some of which has been mentioned:
Kitchen Finks - Another good form of life recovery to complement Thragtusk and an annoying card to deal with outside of Path to Exile. Has a bit of synergy with Damnation. The obvious issue is the prohibitive mana cost. I think Twilight Mire is necessary if you are running this.
Troll Ascetic - Blanks targeted removal and can survive Supreme Verdict. Same prohibitive mana cost as Finks.
Delver of Secrets - I think a Sultai Delver list could work, but it would look very different to this deck.
Vendilion Clique - Already played in many SB. I'm not really keen on running in maindeck with so many Lingering Souls and Lightning Bolt floating around, but if left unanswered will end the game quickly.
As much as I worry about anti-GY strategies, I don't think it's worth sacrificing the raw power of this deck's core creatures in order to protect yourself from it.
I think Ashiok serves the role of alternative win-con fairly well, but I wish we had something that fought a larger portion of the meta.
Some other thoughts:
- Thrun, the Last Troll is a fine sideboard card, but I'm not completely sure I'm sold on it as a maindeck threat.
- I think Go for the Throat is a great way to answer things like Siege Rhino, Tasigur, Sower of Temptation, Restoration Angel, etc. I currently run both it and Dismember as one-ofs.
- Grave Titan is a BEATING. I play 1 SB and have been loving it.
What are people's thoughts on Murmurs from Beyond over Compulsive Research? It's instant speed, will always net you 2 cards, and fuels Delve. I find when -2'ing Jace I am almost always choosing the 2 card pile largely to ensure I am gaining card advantage over an opponent with whom I am hopefully mostly trading 1-for-1s
I'm thinking this deck is in a decent position right now. It has a lot of game against Twin and Junk, which I think will be one of the two more popular choices at the upcoming GP in Charlotte. One card in particular I am worried about is Collected Company. It's a very scary card if it's resolved against us, even if it just for value. I am currently packing a pretty heavy removal suite with 2 Damnation, but I know this is the one card I am going to have to always have on my radar.
I've been testing with a planeswalker suite of 2x Jace, Architect of Thought and 1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and have had solid results so far. Jace is just too good to only run 1 copy, especially when you are in top-deck mode and having it net +1 cards is huge. Tamiyo may seem like an odd choice, but her +1 can serve both a controlling or aggressive role and also is a nice answer to something the deck has a problem with: manlands. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is a bit of a pet card of mine, but I just don't think it proves that useful in many matchups other than Abzan and maybe Jund.
Personally, I like this card. It's versatile and I love instant speed discard. It certainly isn't pushed, but it isn't bad, either.
Wasteland with GG? Seems anti-synergistic
I know then name of the deck is Tempo Thresh so the one threshold creature is pretty much a mainstay, I'm just interested to see why GG is not considered.
They can still hit Enchantress' Presence and Green Sun's Zenith. And some lists run Spell Snare.
City of Solitude, sure, but maindecking Choke seems a bit ambitious. I guess if you had a great read that the meta would be 70%+ blue decks it would be okay.
Argothian Enchantress?
Why would we want to play this card anyway?
As for Sigarda, she seems like an interesting idea, but I really don't know if she's worth the inclusion. By the time you'd be able to play her, you should have things pretty wrapped up already. The only relevant threat I can see her protecting you from is a hardcast Emrakul, as we have ways to deal with him if they S&T.
QUOTE]
Argothian Enchantress?
Why would we want to play this card anyway?
As for Sigarda, she seems like an interesting idea, but I really don't know if she's worth the inclusion. By the time you'd be able to play her, you should have things pretty wrapped up already. The only relevant threat I can see her protecting you from is a hardcast Emrakul, as we have ways to deal with him if they S&T.