How does his cast trigger interact with Spellskite? I am under the impression that it is 1 trigger with 2 targets and if one of those targets is Spellskite to begin with the other cannot be redirected to Spellskite?
Also, how would this interaction work with a blink effect like Restoration Angel, Spellskite, and Ulamog targets?
PPTQ Report Quick Version: Went 3 Wins and 3 Losses. Not bad, not great was, 16 out of 33, middle of the pack but I always felt like I had a chance to get back into to all of them except the very last match where I drew like POOP. I was 3 and 2 needing the win to get in to top 8, but alas the guy I beat 2 weeks ago showed up with his CoCO Elves and this time, I didn't draw enough board interaction.
Results:
Round 1, Vs Abzan Red 2-0 Win
G/R Eldrazi-Ramp crushes Abzan, and it's been like this a lot. I curve out both games, did the Ugin, Ulamog Dance and it was over. It feels like this kind of deck eats Midrange alive.
Round 2, Vs Dark Jeskai 1-2 Loss
Same dude who helped me!! UGH!!! We both had great hands, only issue was in G3, I drew ramp and a few offshoots + a single hangarback and nothing else. It wasn't until turn what? 12? That I drew my first Ugin, and by that time it was too late. This was one of those moments I wanted my deck to show me a little love.
Round 3, VS Dark Jeskai 2-0 Win
Well this was a completely different match. He didn't get the most aggressive starts, but the deck went "crunch" Game 1 and he scooped after I chained my 3rd Ulamog. Game 2 was...awesome. I figured he'd be on the Obleration Plan so I SB accordingly. He gets off not 1, not 2, but 3 Infinite Obliteration's this game. He Took, Ulamog, Atarka, and Void Winnower. However we were at a point in the game where I had resolved a Nissa and drawing +1 every turn. I managed to land a 4/4 Hangarback, and shortly after I found Ugin, which found me another massive hangarback. It always starts with Ugin, much his surprise, he saw I had diversified my threats and was worried when he saw all the threats I sided in:
On top of the MB. IN the end the least threating critter got there, hangarback.
Round 4, Vs U/B Aristocrats. 1-2 Loss
Yeah...this is a bad match up, it's Ugin or Bust. For real, this is get to T5 Ugin and survive. G1 was the deck going off and me drawing nothing but lands.
G2, I get Ugin, I land Ulamog.He does stuffs, I've gained a ton of life from Jaddi's. He gets me into the red zone, I attack with Ulamog, eat his library, he follows up with Lethal and I fog. I then win off of Ulamog mill.
G3, Seismic Rupture seemed okay to board in on the board but nope...doesn't really do much. I dot stomped with 2 in hand. Didn't have much to shoot at, it's not we can cast 2 in one turn...deck runs a single red source. Moving on.
Round 5, Vs Esper Dragons 2-1 Win
G1, was brutal. I did things I didn't think I'd get to do, like:
He Duress's me in G1, I reveal 3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon with 2 Sanctum of Ugin's in play already + enough lands to chain. I proceed to chain and says " yeah...okay I've seen enough"
G2. He took my 1 ramp spell and left me stranded. He then Obliterated my stuff, I had nothing to do here but sit back and see his deck.
G3. I go into SB plan for Obliteration and prepare. He gets cocky, he manages to do a T3 Infinite Obliteration. I don't fret, don't panic, and eventually, Ugin wins the day, along with yet another massive 4/4 Hangarback + Nissa for CA. I love Ugin, huggles for dayz.
Note: I tested against friends later, especially against those that thought Infinite Obliteration would beat the deck. I beat them all, and told them/showed how it doesn't beat the deck.
Round 6, Vs CoCo Elves + cutthroat 0-2 Loss
G1, over in a flash
G2, over in a Flash
I drew really bad, and mulled to find a decent keepable hand both times. Just didn't draw well and that was it. He extended me a hand and he said "Dude, you drew nothing.." and I said " Yep, all good man, not my time to get there.
And that was my PPTQ. Decks is solid, not many players on it, and some things to ponder:
1) Deck needs to shore up the aggro match up, Hangarback isn't enough and Seismic Rupture has under-performed.
2)Infinite Obliteration isn't something to be feared, if anything, you go to plan B which the deck has (as long as you diversify your threats after SB, Nissa was GREAT)
3) Void Winnower came in for a Hedron Arhive, and I had in the 75 for the mirror/ I was the only player on Eldrazi Ramp
I really think Jaddi Offshoot is why I was able to win G1's . 3-3 is meh, but the deck does wreck the decks it's designed to defeat, sometimes it feels like you want more ways to draw Eldrazi, maybe a single From Beyond is needed. Ugin is stupid good, yeah.
Little new to the thread here and the deck in general. Have 3 variations that I have been playing this week while on the road for work and I am just looking for some insight or pointers as to which direction/color combination you would feel is strongest.
Forgive me if the formatting is wrong, it has been a long time since I have cruised the boards here. Pretty standard lists I guess. Coming from playing a metric ton of Abzan both last season and early this season, just looking for some seasoned advice and input.
After playing all 3 decks, each seem to have the same strengths... ramp to a fatty.. while each holds its own little niche off color.
For everyone else: who here is on the ancient stirrings plan vs the SSG plan? Since I've been playing this deck I've been solidly on the SSG plan, I think tonight I'm going to drop 1 azusa, 1 SSG, and the main board engineered explosives for ancient stirrings for more of a hybrid plan. This will put me on 2 azusas, 2 SSGs, and 3 ancient stirrings. Thoughts?
I started out on the SSG Speck list and have played that for many, many hours over the course of months. Recently I have moved more into the various Ancient Stirrings lists. I really miss the "oops" explosion that SSG can provide but things seem to be much more consistent with the stirring plan. I am not all in on a busted draw/mulligan as much. I am currently running 4 Ancient Stirrings, 2 Azusa, and 1 Explore for testing purposes. I miss the E.E. quite a bit so chances are the Explore will be making its way back out of the list.
The basic mountain does prove its merit. That oddball chance when you need to preserve your life total is relevant. I play 4 verdants and 2 r/x fetches, so maybe playing the basic mountain is wrong, but I also need to hit the double red for splinter twin.
Talking about the mashed up version of Splinter Twin/ Living End and the mana base for the traditional Living End deck are two completely different things. Really wish people would better clarify what they are speaking about in their original posts/comments or perhaps Twinning End could get its own sub forum?
As far as life total preservation goes, anything you can cycle off of Red mana can be cycled off either Black or Green also, so just run the Verdant Catacombs as you stated you do and don't bother with a basic mountain?
I've always liked having Kessig on my side. I never tried Vault, but that's because it just feels so clunky and I've skimmed a lot of wins off of Kessig, even just activating it for 0 to give trample.
Re Foothills vs. Catacombs: Is there really a significant difference? They both get all of our shocks (assuming you run Temple Garden over Godless Shrine, which I do) and Dryad Arbor. The difference is fetching a basic Mountain vs. a basic Swamp, which hardly seems relevant.
The trample definitely makes a huge difference, that is what I was alluding to in my statement as well.
As far as basic swamp vs mountain, it is most likely irrelevant, but there will be random games where you are setting up and that basic Swamp becomes important under a Blood Moon and such. Fringe case at best but when you play enough games it is bound to happen more times than not. There will also be those awkward opening hands (which we all know happen) against fast aggro where you have 2 R/G lands in hand and either have or draw into the fetch land. With the Verdant it allows you to hit all colors on curve with minimal damage dealt to yourself. With the Wooded Foothills it forces you to either cut yourself off or help the cause and cast Lightning Bolt to your own face.
I haven't really been able to get on board with the Architect of Will. I don't have a solid reason why, it just doesn't seem to be my playstyle. The one mana cycle definitely helps to put more creatures into the yard earlier but it makes for some awkwardness in terms of cycling and colors. Everything else can cycle off of red mana, so those first couple turns really can force you to fetch sub-optimally or cut yourself off of other options.
As far as the utility lands, I can see the case for both. I think it's more of a meta dependent, personal playstyle list. The Kessig can push through damage that works to close out the game. The Vault really seems to keep you in the game longer but forces the game to go longer. The deathtouch portion of the Vault semi to be the worst side of it, as most things post loving end are trumped by our mass of creatures anyways.
I definitely think it is deck dependent on what fetch lands you are running. If you are running the build with Dryad Arbor obviously Wooded Foothills becomes the better choice. If you are running Architects of Will the Bloodstained Mire would be my choice.
As far as the lists that are cropping up lately with Wooded Foothills/Bloodstained Mires and no Verdant Catacombs are definitely due to the price difference and the speculation that Verdant Catacombs will most likely see a reprint in the fall. Is there a difference between which ones you run, of course. Will it actually matter, sometimes, but most of the time you can get away with any combination of the 3.
Thanks for the replies. I think all 3 versions run some form of smaller sweeper. Not saying every Bloom Titan player would think to bring them in though. I have played both ends of the match up and agree that diversity with storm win cons game 2 and 3 is always nice. I just get leary of getting next leveled when putting all my eggs in one basket.
Round 6 - Bloom Titan W 2-0
- My opponent drew rather poorly, I stormed off for an easy turn 4 win, game 2 once again he drew rather poorly, I ETW for 10 an rode to victory.
Aside from drawing poorly, what was your thoughts on bringing in the ETW plan against the deck? I am just curious because even an early Empty isn't a for sure win the the creatures and life gain they have right?
Is it because of the Leyline out of the side potentially?
For the leyline, which he played.
Obviously, you felt that it was warranted to bring in the ETW. What are your thoughts on that plan over something like Echoing Truth so you don't get blown out against pyroclasm/firespout effects? In your case you won the 1st match so a blow out could be afforded game 2 but does the plan change if the circumstances change?
Round 6 - Bloom Titan W 2-0
- My opponent drew rather poorly, I stormed off for an easy turn 4 win, game 2 once again he drew rather poorly, I ETW for 10 an rode to victory.
Aside from drawing poorly, what was your thoughts on bringing in the ETW plan against the deck? I am just curious because even an early Empty isn't a for sure win the the creatures and life gain they have right?
Is it because of the Leyline out of the side potentially?
So, you say this is a low percentage, but with the deck finally catching on, this percentage in the overall meta is going to go up in games. There is nothing good about this happening 1 in every 10 games with a deck that is getting more popular.
So you cherry-pick a bunch of ways that interaction does work, and I cherry picked a bunch of ways that it doesn't. This is why I say there is no GOOD way to interact with it, and while it is hyperbolic, I stand by it. Yes, you can Path, Ghost Quarter, Trickbind, Nature's Claim, Spell Snare, etc, but the deck has an answer to these things.
I will say that Spell Pierce and Thoughtseize are good ways to interact with Amulet Bloom (again, as long as you draw an equal number of these answers to the threats needed, and can apply pressure at the same time), but as the deck gets an uptick in popularity, should everyone be forced to play U/B to beat it?
You do realize just how low the probability of having a turn 1 Titan is right? and in similar respect a turn 1 Hive Mind kill. The probability of the deck dropping a Titan or killing you with Hive Mind on any given turn won't change just because the # of people playing the deck changes. It will see more opportunity to have its 15 minutes of shame and nothing more due to increased popularity.
I am pretty bad when it comes to cherry-picking interaction but I don't understand how you can say the deck has no way for anyone to have "good" interaction with it. The Hive Mind kill in the early turns are somewhat hard to stop but the probability of that happening is so low you might as well consider yourself lucky to see it happen. Just because the deck has multiple answers to various cards doesn't make it broken or overpowered.
From the sound of your recent posts it seems like you are just another "cry that the sky is falling" player that can't adapt to changes or can't play his cards the way he wants them to be played so in turn cries to the masses for bans and sympathy. It is posts like these that really water down what a fun game Magic can be for so many different types of people. Drop the emotion and personal ties to bad events and try evaluate things on an even level. This is what the format needs from its players to help Modern grow into a blossoming format.
Tell me one card besides Spell Pierce that consistently stops Amulet from beating you, whether they are on the Hive Mind plan OR the Primeval Titan plan. "Consistently" is the key word. Yes, Ghost Quarter may do it, and yes, Path To Exile may do it, but the problem is that there are lots of draws the deck can have where these efforts do not matter.
Also note that nowhere in my posts have I mentioned a turn 1 Titan. I'm talking about a fundamental rule of Modern: decks that win before turn 4.
The percentage of a win before turn 4 for the Amulet Bloom decks will not rise as the percentage of players using it rises. The percentage of its occurrence in tournaments will.
Read better, especially before questioning motives. I'm happy to adapt to Titan if someone can tell me a specific way to do it. It doesn't have a consistent foil like the other oppressively fast decks do. As I have cited in many examples, attempts to thwart one axis of the deck may not be where the deck presents itself weak in your matchup. I personally don't find this to be acceptable in a deck that can win before turn 4. If a deck has multiple paths to victory and its critical turn is turn 4 or after, then I don't care. Amulet Bloom is problematic because it has multiple paths to victory and fights disruption easily while being a turn 4 or before deck a significant percentage of the time.
I am curious to see what cards "consistently foil" the other fast, linear, aggressive decks in the format, from your perspective of course.
There are plenty of cards that can stop or slow the deck, in many situational ways. Spell snare on the summer bloom for one. The deck basically folds to blood moon. Any form of discard. Path to exile and condemn. Any cheap artifact removal for the early Amulet. The list can go on.
I am not arguing that an early Hive Mind kill isn't beyond broken. I do completely disagree with the rising notion that the deck is "so hard to beat". The deck is all in on 1 plan. Why should all combo decks be slow and controlling like twin? If someone wants to pay their 60$ to nut draw you on camera then proceed to lose the next 4 rounds to drawing blanks, they should have that choice.
You claim the deck is problematic because it fights disruption while having multiple paths to victory...doesn't this statement blanket the majority of the decks in modern?
Do you have any solid #'s used for the basis of "a significant % of the time"? Or is this just another sour taste after playing the deck a few times? If you have some #'s somewhere, please send me a pm of them. I would like to browse them.
How does his cast trigger interact with Spellskite? I am under the impression that it is 1 trigger with 2 targets and if one of those targets is Spellskite to begin with the other cannot be redirected to Spellskite?
Also, how would this interaction work with a blink effect like Restoration Angel, Spellskite, and Ulamog targets?
Can I get your list by chance?
Could I get my named changed to Slushhead to better match the rest of the interwebbed world out there.
Thanks.
Current Lists:
4 Jaddi Offshoot
4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Dragonlord Atarka
4 Explosive Vegetation
4 Map the Wastes
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
1 Nissa's Renewal
15 Forest
4 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
1 Mountain
2 Rending Volley
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Gaea's Revenge
2 Void Winnower
2 Seismic Rupture
1 Windstorm
3 Winds of Qal Sisma
2 Oblivion Sower
4 Jaddi Offshoot
2 Oblivion Sower
4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Complete Disregard
4 Explosive Vegetation
2 Hedron Archive
2 Murderous Cut
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
2 Sylvan Scrying
10 Forest
4 Jungle Hollow
3 Swamp
4 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
2 Gaea's Revenge
3 Transgress the Mind
2 Ultimate Price
1 Void Winnower
1 Bane of Bala Ged
3 Winds of Qal Sisma
1 Windstorm
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Oblivion Sower
3 Clash of Wills
4 Anticipate
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Explosive Vegetation
3 Map the Wastes
1 Nissa's Renewal
2 Dig Through Time
4 Sanctum of Ugin
11 Forest
3 Island
4 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
3 Thornwood Falls
1 Hangarback Walker
2 Dispel
1 Windstorm
3 Winds of Qal Sisma
4 Jaddi Offshoot
2 Adverse Conditions
2 Bane of Bala Ged
Forgive me if the formatting is wrong, it has been a long time since I have cruised the boards here. Pretty standard lists I guess. Coming from playing a metric ton of Abzan both last season and early this season, just looking for some seasoned advice and input.
After playing all 3 decks, each seem to have the same strengths... ramp to a fatty.. while each holds its own little niche off color.
Apparently we have a different understanding of the word different since running different lands equates to being the same?
Like I said though, clarification in your original post goes a long way when the discussion is built upon the traditional Living End deck.
I started out on the SSG Speck list and have played that for many, many hours over the course of months. Recently I have moved more into the various Ancient Stirrings lists. I really miss the "oops" explosion that SSG can provide but things seem to be much more consistent with the stirring plan. I am not all in on a busted draw/mulligan as much. I am currently running 4 Ancient Stirrings, 2 Azusa, and 1 Explore for testing purposes. I miss the E.E. quite a bit so chances are the Explore will be making its way back out of the list.
Talking about the mashed up version of Splinter Twin/ Living End and the mana base for the traditional Living End deck are two completely different things. Really wish people would better clarify what they are speaking about in their original posts/comments or perhaps Twinning End could get its own sub forum?
As far as life total preservation goes, anything you can cycle off of Red mana can be cycled off either Black or Green also, so just run the Verdant Catacombs as you stated you do and don't bother with a basic mountain?
The trample definitely makes a huge difference, that is what I was alluding to in my statement as well.
As far as basic swamp vs mountain, it is most likely irrelevant, but there will be random games where you are setting up and that basic Swamp becomes important under a Blood Moon and such. Fringe case at best but when you play enough games it is bound to happen more times than not. There will also be those awkward opening hands (which we all know happen) against fast aggro where you have 2 R/G lands in hand and either have or draw into the fetch land. With the Verdant it allows you to hit all colors on curve with minimal damage dealt to yourself. With the Wooded Foothills it forces you to either cut yourself off or help the cause and cast Lightning Bolt to your own face.
As far as the utility lands, I can see the case for both. I think it's more of a meta dependent, personal playstyle list. The Kessig can push through damage that works to close out the game. The Vault really seems to keep you in the game longer but forces the game to go longer. The deathtouch portion of the Vault semi to be the worst side of it, as most things post loving end are trumped by our mass of creatures anyways.
As far as the lists that are cropping up lately with Wooded Foothills/Bloodstained Mires and no Verdant Catacombs are definitely due to the price difference and the speculation that Verdant Catacombs will most likely see a reprint in the fall. Is there a difference between which ones you run, of course. Will it actually matter, sometimes, but most of the time you can get away with any combination of the 3.
Obviously, you felt that it was warranted to bring in the ETW. What are your thoughts on that plan over something like Echoing Truth so you don't get blown out against pyroclasm/firespout effects? In your case you won the 1st match so a blow out could be afforded game 2 but does the plan change if the circumstances change?
Aside from drawing poorly, what was your thoughts on bringing in the ETW plan against the deck? I am just curious because even an early Empty isn't a for sure win the the creatures and life gain they have right?
Is it because of the Leyline out of the side potentially?
There are plenty of cards that can stop or slow the deck, in many situational ways. Spell snare on the summer bloom for one. The deck basically folds to blood moon. Any form of discard. Path to exile and condemn. Any cheap artifact removal for the early Amulet. The list can go on.
I am not arguing that an early Hive Mind kill isn't beyond broken. I do completely disagree with the rising notion that the deck is "so hard to beat". The deck is all in on 1 plan. Why should all combo decks be slow and controlling like twin? If someone wants to pay their 60$ to nut draw you on camera then proceed to lose the next 4 rounds to drawing blanks, they should have that choice.
You claim the deck is problematic because it fights disruption while having multiple paths to victory...doesn't this statement blanket the majority of the decks in modern?
Do you have any solid #'s used for the basis of "a significant % of the time"? Or is this just another sour taste after playing the deck a few times? If you have some #'s somewhere, please send me a pm of them. I would like to browse them.