Lots of good stuff here too. I'll be keeping a close eye on Artisans to see how they perform as well as how the other 4 drops perform in general.
Got a Victory Chimes yesterday in sealed actually. I didn't even put it in the list, but it works great with flash creatures (and a certain goat making machine :P) so I'll definitely find a spot for it. Had previously restricted myself to 2 cmc or less artifact ramp but that one might deserve the exception, especially in a 6 player games.
Given how much everyone here gushes over it, I'm assuming you guys find Helm of Possession to perform considerably better than Vedalken Shackles? I definitely would lean towards the shackles if I wasn't looking at advice or had the experience to make the call, so that's curious to me. (I also have an extreme aversion to using non-modern frames, so there's that too but I know that's not a reasonable point for or against anything)
Yall have sold me on Karador. I'm going to try building my abzan list from scratch for him rather than just changing out the generals for the current abzan hatebears deck I have.
Re:artisans, yeah i realized that right after I posted, but there are also like 3 or 4 sac outlets in the deck that could leverage those tokens if they were onboard.
Nothing more to add for now. Thanks so much for all the help!
Edit: oh i did have one really small aside- I assume Sea of Clouds gets a spot in the deck now? Not sure which land you'd want to cut but its almost strictly better than Glacial Fortress in my playgroup.
Not at all! Thanks so much for the detailed response!
Since it seems to be the determining factor for a lot of feedback, I'll touch on the playgroup a bit. I travel around a lot, at least for the moment, so I never really build too much for a specific meta as it changes too much to be worth that. That's also while I like a competitively built deck that eschews pure stax, infinite combos, and the like- it'll be strong enough to have a fighting chance at a cutthroat table, but not so brutal that more casual tables will be too angered by it. (The restriction on tutors is more personal preference than it is playgroup insurance, though; I just don't like playing out the same lines every game)
Now, all that said, my current playgroup is a bit of a weird one. It's a mostly casual bunch, but there's one or two of them that just throw down burgeoning or show an infinite combo in their hand, say "I won, but let's play it out", I guess either totally unaware of the social contracts they're breaking or just out of a complete lack of consideration. We also have this weird tendency to play 6 player games- despite my objections :P- so "people don't feel left out." I won't dwell too much on playgroup frustrations as I know it's a bit tasteless and I'm just a traveler passing through the meta anyways, but, here's a bit of helpful advice to others cultivating their own playgroups- if you expressly don't want infinite combos to be a thing, you probably shouldn't run 6 or even 5 player games. Good luck trying to play aggro, midrange, or control with that many other players.
So with all that said, do you think Ephara stands a chance in a 6 player game? Does any hatebear deck stand a chance? (and would you rather run Ephara or the abzan dudes in such a meta?)
Durdly was definitely the word floating around in the back of my head for both Rack and Canyons. Effective, but durdly. I'll finish a temporary list then see if Rack makes sense given the engines/tutors that did make it in. I think Canyon is probably a cut but I do question running Nykthos over it. Nykthos has always struck me as winmore, especially in non big mana decks, and here especially I don't get the sense it makes a ton of sense since you typically want to spend mana across turns in small bursts rather than using a ton of mana at once. I concede that I haven't tested with it basically at all- think I got it out once in a Cockatrice game?- so I'd defer to experience here. It just seems like Winding Canyons is more a natural fit for what the deck wants to do for me if we're allocating a colorless land slot somewhere.
I also agree with the durdly label for Cloud Post. Not too concerned about its costs, though. 1 life a turn is usually less than what a goat can stop and 1 mana is a fine price to pay to draw a card. The few times you do rescue something, it feels great too. Sacrificing a token of any kind- not just a goat- to get back one of your key artifacts always feels worth it. But that's the rules text cost- as for the deckbuilding cost of running this over something like doomsayer, which is 1 cheaper and can activate without needing mana is another matter. I definitely haven't played enough to accurately compare them.
fanta
I went back and read your Artisans manifesto and I gotta say- most of those scenarios didn't seem bad at all to me? Like if my opponents go Wurmcoil Engine into Wood Elves, I'm not dejected because I didn't get to keep a Wurmcoil- I'm celebrating because I just got two 3/3 tokens, a 1/1 chump blocker for the moment, and 2 Ephara triggers over two turns. That's fantastic. Similarly, if my opponents feel they shouldn't play creatures at all because I've played this, I'm also feeling pretty good. Like, I get that 4 is a lot for the deck, but it seems like the expectations for this were maybe set a bit too high? As a single 4 mana Ephara trigger machine, it really doesn't need to do that much to be worth it I feel. All that said, you guys have the experience here; I just think if I'm going to get burned on Faerie Artisans, I'll have to learn it myself and get burned before I cut it because I'm not really seeing a bad card here. Anything my opponents always want to immediately remove or play around to hate out is probably something effective enough it should stay in the deck.
Alright, I've overlooked some of the ways of getting rid of Gryff. And I'm even running Crystal Shard atm, which is another out you don't have in yours. (What are your thoughts on that card by the way?) I can definitely see what you mean about blocking the potent stuff, then just getting rid of him when you need to. I'll put him back in alongside Sakashima's student as a new addition and outlet and see how he fares with some more thoughtful play on my part. Speaking of which, you definitely sold me on the student. I'll give him a shot over the double.
I totally missed the exile clause on Teferi's. Fortunately, I don't think I've ever actually cheated or benefitted from that, but it definitely weakens its appeal. Also, with the decks general goal of running creatures for effects like that over instants, maybe Selfless Spirit makes more sense for that style of Wrath prevention?
Re:deck philosophy as a whole- aggro control is fine, great even, as that's ultimately my favorite style of deck. (Death and Taxes is my favorite constructed deck of all time, and this is basically expanding that strategy to a commander sized level) I'm keeping more of your tutors than not- enlightened and mystical are the ones are the chopping block for being not attached to creatures/less specialized than Recruiter of the Guard, SFM, and Spellseeker, which are all in the deck. My build is going to be more close to yours than not, though I'm seeing/expecting around 7 cards difference.
You think Karador would be much stronger than Tymna/Sidar? Not disagreeing; just curious. I thought that pair together looked particularly good just because you devote all your slots to hatebears similar to this deck and let Tymna draw you gas in the absence of needing dedicated draw engines. (and in my meta- Tymna draws 5 cards! Might as well punish them for 6 player games if we're going to keep at it. :P) Sidar's ability to convert all our hatebears to actual effective combat tools which lets them enable Tymna in turn didn't look too shabby to me either. Karador does have a pretty powerful line of text or two on him though, and I haven't played with either to know.
Looking at running a new deck for Vegas commander fun and wanted to make an aggro deck that could hold on its own in a semi competitive to competitive environment. Since I also don't like running infinite combos or stax, that means I need a fairly powerful CA engine and disruptive elements to my aggro deck to stand a chance. This deck caught my eye so I've been working on a list for it and I think I'll either be running with this or a junk hatebears deck helmed by Sidar Kondo and Tymna.
Few things- I'm comfortable playing powerful cards and the usual broken artifact accelerants- so crypt and ring are fine- but I do generally restrain myself from stuff like Timestream Navigator, which I gather hasn't been an essential part of the deck anyways, so shouldn't be too much of a loss. I also try to run only a handful of limited tutors as I don't like running the same lines of play every commander game. Stuff like the new BBD 3 drop that fetches very specifically a 2 cmc or less instant/sorc is fine. Muddle the Mixture is probably fine too. But I might stop shy of something like Enlightened Tutor, which might be a bit too general and just approaching too many tutors in general anyways. How reliant is this deck on tutoring up specific stuff each game? Is just playing out the hatebears I get and relying on Ephara's card draw engine likely good enough for a semi competitive environment?
Some specific card questions I was thinking of adding in place of some of the stuff I'm cutting-
Scroll Rack- the deck already has Land Tax and some ways to shuffle unwanted cards with fetches, tutors resetting the deck. Would this be an alright piece to add or is it simply unnecessary if Land Tax is already online and Ephara so easy to trigger? Might be going too deep on the draw engines.
Trading Post- Tested a few token generators and this has actually been my favorite in self played testing games against myself lol. The 1 mana is a real thing, but being on an artifact instead of a creature is a little bit more resilient and the flexibility of the artifact outside triggering Ephara seems great. Particularly its ability to recur powerful artifacts like Cloudstone Curio or the SFM target equipment.
Faerie Artisans- Alright, I know this has been controversial from what I've read at the front and back of the thread, so I'm going to go back and read those comments instead of asking yall to reiterate. I've just found it great in testing and it seems tailor made for the deck so I'm kind of astounded its been such a source of heated debate. It's also just a cool fun card.
Hushwing Gryff- this is a card I took out of the deck from testing. It just kills so many other cards in the deck, from powerful cipt creatures to Cloudstone Curio to effectively killing a ton of the utility of things like Eldrazi Displacer that aren't directly affected by it.
Snapcaster MageSpellseeker- My current build runs about 9 instants and sorceries total. Now, they are great targets so I don't mind leaving these cards in with so few things to hit, but I was just curious if you felt there was a needed critical mass to make these worth running. What do you think the most essential Spellseeker cards to include in general are? What about Muddle the Mixture targets?
Stunt Double- I see the advantages of a card like Sakashima's Student, but I would assume the flash utility of Stunt Double would make it a either a worthy replacement or at least an addition to some of the clones in the deck. Is it not being run simply because you guys don't own/haven't tested it or has it been tested and found worse than the other clones being run?
Winding Canyons- not a lot to say here. Seems like a natural fit for the deck; is it just too mana intensive?
Silumgar Sorcerer- A counterspell that triggers Ephara, can leverage any Solider/Goat/Faerie tokens lying around, and can be recurred/blinked to counter more stuff with instant speed blink or return to hand effects/blinking Sun Titan if its in the graveyard. I'm assuming this was tested and found wanting at some point too?
Teferi's Protection- I tend to prefer to run this in any heavy board investment deck that's also white and commonly leaves up mana for the opponent's turns, especially if that deck also runs Snapcaster Mage. However, no way to tutor it in my build (you guys at least have Mystical Tutor in yours) might mean its not worth a slot. What do you think?
Thanks in advance for any feedback you might have!
Naban just doesn't do enough to justify a spot, at least in the stock lists. If yours has a wizard heavy bent, perhaps he's worth it there, but in a standard deck he:
-Causes reflector mage to bounce two things
-Lets reflector mage trigger champion and lieutenant twice
-Lets meddling mage trigger lieutenant twice
That's it. That's not enough to be worth taking a precious 2 drop spot, especially since he's just a vanilla 2/1 that does nothing else without either of those two cards etb'ing.
While Chandra's +'s burn mode is just as relevant here as her card draw, I'm concerned there would be times you'd want to dig for a cryptic or some other counter where her plus won't work. My only reservation there. If you do see it in testing, let us know how it goes.
Finally settled on this deck for the GP. So long Grixis! Now for the finishing tuning touches.
I'm definitely down for trying out Geist. I began my testing with this deck with Tamada's list so I haven't had experience with Geist to call it bad or good and I could certainly see how, in theory, it works for the more tempo ish burn heavy variants. I do think the evasive and flash aspects of Queller specifically are being underrated in some comparisons I'm seeing, however.
For the sideboard, I've been entertaining the idea of a semi transformational board in a few slots. In order to address the heavily graveyard dependent metagame we see of late, I'd really like to be able to run Rest in Peace, as mentioned earlier. Alongside it, I'd like to run another couple of cards to sub in in place of some knots/snapcasters so our own gy dependent cards don't hold us back. Between those and some split of Knots/other counters in the main deck, I feel we could make the shift without losing too much power. This plan would have the additional benefit of being usable- minus the rest in peace-
in matchups where we expect grave hate to come in vs us. Here's some candidates I was thinking of:
THREATS:
Part of Snapcaster's utility in the deck is the classic bolt-snap-bolt play pattern. In subbing in threats in place of them, we can maintain pressure even without the ability to reuse our burn. This has additional benefit when using the no gy plan against decks bringing in hate, as not only do they have dead cards, but additional pressure in the face of their slowed tempo is even more effective. Geist of Saint Traft- Already used in some builds, a hexproof threat that nearly always gets in at least 4 damage seems solid here to me. Vendilion Clique- Also already run in some builds/boards. Traditionally used more for hand disruption than pure pressure, a flash 3/1 flyer in the worst case seems an ok substitute for snappy in graveless games if putting pressure on the opponent is a goal. Spellstutter Sprite- One totally left field idea I had was subbing in a mini faeries package in place of the snappies and knots using both cliques and sprites. ~6 more flyers alongside Quellers would up the onboard pressure complimenting our burn substantially and, with the heavy focus in modern on effiency these days- Death's Shadow being renowned for the power of its one drops- Sprites aren't dependent on maintaining a critical mass of Faeries onboard to hit a spell. Also gets around stubborn denial the same way queller does. My two concerns are that a) removal on the first sprite in response to its trigger kills the value whereas snappy usually guarantees it and b) Living End/Dredge hardcast threats and GDS delve threats are too expensive to hit with Sprite. Young Pyromancer- Effectively the same cmc as Snappy for value- 2 mana + the cost of a spell alongside him. Offers a go wide angle other decks are unlikely to prepare for coming out of our sideboard. Against dredge and living end- places where we'd naturally want to be on the no gy plan- allows us to clog up the board, putting a number of obstacles in the way of their hardcast threats. Monastery Mentor- The pricier Pyro. Wouldn't be worth mentioning in my mind except this isn't a traditional control deck- going aggressive with burn and prowess triggers is a legitimate strategy here. Also has the side benefit of working with Kozilek's Return, if you've taken it up in your sideboard, unlike Pyro. Dragonlord Ojutai- Super pricey, but another hexproof threat like Geist that also lends the deck a CA engine. Probably too expensive though. Keranos, God of Storms- Would largely represent the same thing as Ojutai, though less likely to eat a removal spell than Ojutai on attack but less effective in general. Style points though.
CARD ADVANTAGE
The other big advantage of Snappy in the deck is that it's one of the few CA elements the tempo-ish builds actually have, unusual for a control deck. Instead of subbing in pressure in his place, we could look at other ways of getting additional cards. Ancestral Vision- Already a mainstay in other control lists, it's slow but does generate more CA than even snappy did. Less mana required too. Jace Beleren- Tamada was already running this in his board. Has promise in slower matchups, but not sure how I'd feel against creature/burn heavy decks. Tapping out 3 mana at sorcery speed is also not my favorite thing to do. Jace, Architect of Thought- Big brother Jace. Better draw and can also hold his own vs some graveyard centric threats should they hit the battlefield before rest in peace comes down or be hardcast- Narcos, Bloodghasts, and Souls come to mind. Pricier though.
Would love thoughts if you have experience with testing any of these or just general reactions to the idea of a gy less sb plan. If this seems totally crazy and unfeasible, please say so, as most of you have more experience with the archetype than I do.
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Re: electrolyze, While I board out Electrolyze a lot too, I still like it a lot in this counters company, 5c humans, affinity, elves heavy meta. It's also, somewhat less intuitively, the burn spell of choice to flash back off Snapcaster most times when working on burning the opponent out. Sure, your other burn spells hit for 1 point more, but Jeskai isn't a traditional burn deck where the density of burn spells is so high you can just go pedal to the medal. The draw effect is more valuable than the extra point of damage in testing.
People keep saying queller isn't good against removal heavy decks and I have to wonder if they've ever played with queller. Queller looks like it would be bad against those decks on paper, but in practice I haven't seen that being the case. It's certainly nice when queller doesn't get removed but even as a remand that deals them 2-4 damage it's quite good. You need to have a more aggressive plan to take advantage of the tempo gain of course.
If you're running a slow more controlling version that blanks removal game one then queller is fantastic in your sideboard. In UW planeswalker control I board three in for almost every matchup.
This is exactly what I was thinking. There's no one advocating quellers that wasn't at one point skeptical of the idea of running a 3 mana remand that gets blanked by removal. It just works out so much better in practice if you play them with even a marginal amount of thought.
Reporting back now. Tested Tamada's list across three competitive leagues and have been very impressed with it. I'm nearly ready to switch over to it for GP Vegas instead of taking DS, but I do have a couple lingering concerns. Some notes/questions:
-Spell Queller has totally exceeded expectations. The card has always felt good, even against decks with loads of removal game 1. If it ends up being remand + shock/bolt/char, that's pretty much the low end. Plenty of other times it does even more damage or exiles an uncounterable/recurrable spell or exiles something like a chalice or counter that is just straight up worse when freed from the queller. You do have to play a bit smart with it, but it definitely is worth the include and I was a skeptic initially.
-Logic knot, on the other hand, has felt.... just ok. It's not pleasantly surprised me but it hasn't disappointed me much either. I do have some concerns about it, though. One, I expect a ton of graveyard hate at GP Vegas. Assuming my opponents can strip my yard post board, it gets a lot worse as a counter. Additionally, some of the deck's harder matchups, in my experience, are other decks that utilize the graveyard heavily, like dredge and storm. I'd like to be able to shore up these matchups with some sideboard slots dedicated to graveyard hate- ideally RiP- but the current deck leans pretty heavily on both snapcaster and logic knot too much to justify running RiP. I feel that if I could swap to a counter that wasn't so tied to the yard, I might be able to justify using the RiPs.
-Most of the expected high prevalence decks going into the GP for the metagame are good matchups I'd say. Grixis Death's Shadow feels slightly favored, CoCo decks are significantly favored, and Affinity feels favored too- even without Kozilek's Return. I've beaten affinity 3 times 2-0 without even drawing the return and it hasn't felt super lucky. All of our burn spells kill any of their creatures short of champion, electrolyze is a 2-3 for one a decent amount of the time, and paths are great answers to ravagers, as they have to choose between getting the land or getting their counters moved. Post board, spreading seas kill their manlands, wear/tear provides an additional spot removal spell that can also kill platings, and lavamancer chews through their team. I'm thinking of dropping the Kozi's return at this point, but I'll give it a little longer. Might opt for anger instead to gain some points against dredge?
Which brings me to my questions for you guys. Those of you that have played Tamada's list-
1) What do you think our best tactic is for dealing with Dredge?
2) What about Gifts Storm?
3) Is there any way the deck can shift to running some grave hate and, if so, what do you guys think the best candidates will be?
Not too concerned about the storm matchup as, while I expect it to be present in Vegas, I don't think it's super common. Dredge, on the other hand, has grown in popularity again enough to be worth having a plan for.
How up to date is the matchups section in the OP? Curious how both the current stock control list and Tamada's Queller version fare against Grixis Shadow, Burn, Affinity, Eldrazi Tron, and Counters CoCo decks specifically.
Edit: Really enjoying this list in testing!
Re: the kozilek's return idea above- how is that working out for you? I've wondered if it was worth having as well but my one concern there is that the grim lavamancers do a lot of work, and the matchups where id want the lavamancers are also where I'd want the return. Seems like there'd be a bit of a nonbo.
I actually had a similar idea a few days back and created a list of my own. After a few days refining, I've started taking it through competitive leagues in MTGO. I just went 5-0 (10-0 in games) with the latest iteration. It should show up under Dobogin in the results tomorrow.
I would say the deck is favored against every matchup except UR control, where they have countermagic for your pws and can punish the rummage spells.To that end, I've added more painful truths to the side to replace some of your rummages, so counters aren't backbreaking and they actually need to counter the spells more as you draw more off them. Sin prodders are brought in as well as an additional threat that can dump dudes in the yard in place of the rummage spells. They also abuse the new split card rules which, ironically enough, were created to prevent other abuses. A sin prodder will flip never to return for 7 damage, for example, even though the spell you care about casting is 3 mana. The mardu vehicles matchup is pretty close too, since you have to line up specific answers. The deck has them, but you need to have them in quick order to deal with their pressure.
Some other notes:
-GDD is excellent here. I upped the count from 1 to 2, then 2 to 3 in testing. 4 might even be appropriate. He synergizes so well with all the discarding, reanimating, and, specifically sweltering suns, which he can use to keep the board clear while living himself.
-The maindeck dispossess is a nice weapon against marvel that also hits UR control and mardu with a bit less impact. The deck has so much rummaging that getting to a special tech piece or discarding it if you draw it and don't need it isn't an issue at all. Similar logic to heaven to earth here.
-The playstyle is that you generally function as a Mardu control deck for the first few turns, removing your opponents creatures and using your rummage spells to make your land drops, find your pws, and get critters in the yard. If you can turn 5 a void winnower, you will end most matchups outside Mardu on the spot. (Look at the marvel lists- Whirler Virtuoso is literally their only maindeck path to victory once winnower hits the board)
-The deck is exceptional at dealing with non creature permanents and especially at exiling permanents, with the single anguished unmaking, cast outs, dec in stone, and nahiris. This is by design, as it gives the deck the ability to kill a resolved marvel after one spin as well as the ability to deal with ulamogs. You're also less exposed to random problematic non creature permanents game 1.
--Ulting Nahiri is great in this deck. One opponent made the critical mistake of putting me dead on board several ways instead of dropping Nahiri lower. I ulted Nahiri for Noxious Gearhulk, killed his Avacyn and his gideon as his token could not block the menacing gearhulk without Avacyn still alive, then returned the Gearhulk to my hand, buying me a ton of room. Next turn, I replayed the gearhulk from hand and there was no coming back from that for my opponent. Ulting to grab Linvala and GDD is often great too; there was even one game, not in this set, where I ulted for Void Winnower to kill them through all their even cost blockers. (they can only respond to the ult; they don't actually get to respond to the VW etbing so that shut off all their removal)
Looking at your list above for comparison, some notes-
-I originally had the demon of dark schemes in instead of archfiend as well, but found the ability to cycle the demon better than the higher payoff of the demon. You can also repeatedly cycle through cards, so the fiend can sweep bigger boards. That said, he hasn't been amazing in testing either and I didn't get the demon on board that often, so I'm not positive this is correct yet. The cycling is probably more important than the creature stats on either.
-Pick the brains is pretty interesting. I didn't keep track of it, but I have to imagine delirium is pretty easy to hit? Can be GDD'd as well. Might be worth testing.
-I thought about cut // ribbons but didn't know where I'd want it. Cut is good against heavy pressure decks but less good against control. Ribbons is the exact opposite- we don't exert enough pressure against aggro decks to make ribbons a viable threat, especially if taking advantage of extra lands to rummage away. Control's threats are bigger than cut can kill, so you're playing it pretty much just for ribbons. (Although in post board games I could see it being useful to kill TiTis and outcasts) Like I said, though, I only thought about it. Haven't tested so can't say for sure.
-If there's one change I would suggest from my list to yours, besides the pure power of the Winnower, it would be to up your Death's Majesty and Nahiri counts. They're by far the most powerful cards in the deck and the tools that really make it work. Last Hope is pretty interesting- I didn't think of trying it because I was more focused on reanimating instead of rebuying, but the threats in this deck are pretty castable so it could be good. I might try dropping a death's majesty for 1 to test on the next run.
Would love for others to test both lists and give feedback too. As long as it remains an unknown quantity, the deck is a potent weapon against aggro and Marvel decks alike.
I've thought about it. That's basically what I'd be doing if I do option 1. It's just kind of disappointing to resort to that when I was planning on doing my first big Legacy event. Definitely giving the thought real consideration now.
Re:buying cards before testing- that's basically how I always go about it. It's hard to test with them otherwise. I do usually do a bit of research, inquiry, (like these forum posts) and watch other people play before committing, though. I feel comfortable learning through others.
How disadvantaged do you think the two color lists are vs. the three color brews you and Bahra have been testing? What about the three color brew missing the Chalice? I don't want to commit to a deck that feels strictly worse just for budget reasons, but if those lists have game, just requiring a different style of play, I'd consider them. Of the two two color lists mentioned, I assume you still prefer RW?
So, even though I finished the deck around a half year ago, I'm just now getting around to practicing with it. Currently own a standard monowhite list, but looking at picking up the plateaus and other pieces necessary for the magus splash going into GP Vegas. Is there any good video content out there yet that does a decent walkthrough of a league or something with the post ban meta and WR deck? (I love all the info on Thraben University, but it doesn't look like the splash articles have been updated in a bit)
Splash pages have not been updated in awhile, that is correct. Here is my most recent three color list. You can check out my comments on The Source thread for discussion of the multicolor builds (I'm Medea_) there. Bahra did a couple of streams with an Ancient Tomb/3 color version. You can check out his replay on Twitch, though some of it gets muted since it plays music.
Thanks Phil! Appreciate the new article too, even if it's disheartening for someone just starting to play the archetype. I watched a few hours of his streams. The 3 color variants look pretty acceptable, if a bit unstable. I do feel I'm at a bit of a crossroads here re:Vegas.
Option 1 is to simply go for sealed/modern/side events and accept that a) my current DNT list isn't in a good place right now and b) I have no real experience piloting the deck, just a lot of observing it. (Now, I tend to be fine learning that way- I took Ad Nauseam to Vancouver, which was both my first GP and first modern event period and day 2'd without any trouble. I think DNT is more tricky than AN though)
Option 2 is to take the current list and play it. It's the list I have the most experience watching and I wouldn't have to buy new cards.
Option 3 is to try one of the three color builds. I don't own a single dual land, but I could probably swing 2 plateaus and 1 scrubland or 2 scrublands. I cannot, however, afford city of traitors or chalice of the void OR ancient tomb on top of the duals, which invalidates a lot of the work you guys have been putting out for me. I currently own 2 cavern of souls and could probably pick up the other 2 depending on what the rest of the costs look like. I have pontiffs; no magi though.
Option 4 is a two color splash. The manabase would be more affordable/consistent and the deck probably a tad easier to pilot without having to worry about weird mana draws/wastelands crushing my caverns. I don't know how good the RW and BW builds are, though, as it seems like the community has shifted from monowhite straight to 3 color. I did see an interesting black white list 5-0 the league yesterday (Darwonynx here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-25) that I wouldn't mind trying (plus a pontiff in the mb)Pontiff seems like the best solution to merfolk/TNN and Bob is a nice engine. Kambal looks like a decent card to address both the weak burn matchup and combo, in theory and Kaya, Ghost Assassin is very interesting. No idea how good she actually is though. Does anyone here have experience playing her in any D and T variant?
Black does lack the instant win button that is Magus of the Moon in some matchups, however, so I could also try going for a straight RW build with a bit more red available to bring in Sudden Demise out of the side. Wouldn't answer TNN but I could run a Judgment or two as well in the sb.
What do you guys think the best option is, given a constrained budget for adding new cards and no play experience with the deck?
Edit: Also, totally random aside, how do people feel about Goblin Sharpshooter as a potential alternative to Sparkmage against Elves?
So, even though I finished the deck around a half year ago, I'm just now getting around to practicing with it. Currently own a standard monowhite list, but looking at picking up the plateaus and other pieces necessary for the magus splash going into GP Vegas. Is there any good video content out there yet that does a decent walkthrough of a league or something with the post ban meta and WR deck? (I love all the info on Thraben University, but it doesn't look like the splash articles have been updated in a bit)
On the "alternative threat" discussion, how would something like Karn or Ugin be compared to Grave Titan? Even thinking about Dragonlord Kolaghan. Can assassinate a Lily on the board immediately if that's an issue or pressure the opponent if not. Will likely prevent opponent from casting anything after getting 1 hit in if their graveyard is sufficiently stocked.
Edit: Ignore that last suggestion. I blame sickness. Didn't realize it only affected creatures and pws, and theres little reason for our deck to have put either in their graveyard.
Chalice on 1 also shuts off their removal for your artifact/enchantment based hate. Yeah, I have won games with the "golden lock" before where you get Chalice on 1, Blood Moon, and Stony Silence out, and then Tron actually does have a really hard time removing your pieces and getting a wincon ready before you can clock them but those games are kind of few and far between.
I saw a PW list similar to the regionals one that ran a Sarkhan Dragonspeaker in place of 1 of the 2 Sun's Champions. That seems like a decent sidegrade, as it does present a faster clock and can still remove a threat if needed.
Also considering mainboarding a single Fuliminator Mage. It can take out a tron land, present a clock until needed for that, and take out key lands in other matchups. Worse comes to worst, could just pitch it to Nahiri.
Got a Victory Chimes yesterday in sealed actually. I didn't even put it in the list, but it works great with flash creatures (and a certain goat making machine :P) so I'll definitely find a spot for it. Had previously restricted myself to 2 cmc or less artifact ramp but that one might deserve the exception, especially in a 6 player games.
Given how much everyone here gushes over it, I'm assuming you guys find Helm of Possession to perform considerably better than Vedalken Shackles? I definitely would lean towards the shackles if I wasn't looking at advice or had the experience to make the call, so that's curious to me. (I also have an extreme aversion to using non-modern frames, so there's that too but I know that's not a reasonable point for or against anything)
Yall have sold me on Karador. I'm going to try building my abzan list from scratch for him rather than just changing out the generals for the current abzan hatebears deck I have.
Also, sticking with Nykthos, for now at least.
Re:artisans, yeah i realized that right after I posted, but there are also like 3 or 4 sac outlets in the deck that could leverage those tokens if they were onboard.
Nothing more to add for now. Thanks so much for all the help!
Edit: oh i did have one really small aside- I assume Sea of Clouds gets a spot in the deck now? Not sure which land you'd want to cut but its almost strictly better than Glacial Fortress in my playgroup.
Since it seems to be the determining factor for a lot of feedback, I'll touch on the playgroup a bit. I travel around a lot, at least for the moment, so I never really build too much for a specific meta as it changes too much to be worth that. That's also while I like a competitively built deck that eschews pure stax, infinite combos, and the like- it'll be strong enough to have a fighting chance at a cutthroat table, but not so brutal that more casual tables will be too angered by it. (The restriction on tutors is more personal preference than it is playgroup insurance, though; I just don't like playing out the same lines every game)
Now, all that said, my current playgroup is a bit of a weird one. It's a mostly casual bunch, but there's one or two of them that just throw down burgeoning or show an infinite combo in their hand, say "I won, but let's play it out", I guess either totally unaware of the social contracts they're breaking or just out of a complete lack of consideration. We also have this weird tendency to play 6 player games- despite my objections :P- so "people don't feel left out." I won't dwell too much on playgroup frustrations as I know it's a bit tasteless and I'm just a traveler passing through the meta anyways, but, here's a bit of helpful advice to others cultivating their own playgroups- if you expressly don't want infinite combos to be a thing, you probably shouldn't run 6 or even 5 player games. Good luck trying to play aggro, midrange, or control with that many other players.
So with all that said, do you think Ephara stands a chance in a 6 player game? Does any hatebear deck stand a chance? (and would you rather run Ephara or the abzan dudes in such a meta?)
Durdly was definitely the word floating around in the back of my head for both Rack and Canyons. Effective, but durdly. I'll finish a temporary list then see if Rack makes sense given the engines/tutors that did make it in. I think Canyon is probably a cut but I do question running Nykthos over it. Nykthos has always struck me as winmore, especially in non big mana decks, and here especially I don't get the sense it makes a ton of sense since you typically want to spend mana across turns in small bursts rather than using a ton of mana at once. I concede that I haven't tested with it basically at all- think I got it out once in a Cockatrice game?- so I'd defer to experience here. It just seems like Winding Canyons is more a natural fit for what the deck wants to do for me if we're allocating a colorless land slot somewhere.
I also agree with the durdly label for Cloud Post. Not too concerned about its costs, though. 1 life a turn is usually less than what a goat can stop and 1 mana is a fine price to pay to draw a card. The few times you do rescue something, it feels great too. Sacrificing a token of any kind- not just a goat- to get back one of your key artifacts always feels worth it. But that's the rules text cost- as for the deckbuilding cost of running this over something like doomsayer, which is 1 cheaper and can activate without needing mana is another matter. I definitely haven't played enough to accurately compare them.
fanta
I went back and read your Artisans manifesto and I gotta say- most of those scenarios didn't seem bad at all to me? Like if my opponents go Wurmcoil Engine into Wood Elves, I'm not dejected because I didn't get to keep a Wurmcoil- I'm celebrating because I just got two 3/3 tokens, a 1/1 chump blocker for the moment, and 2 Ephara triggers over two turns. That's fantastic. Similarly, if my opponents feel they shouldn't play creatures at all because I've played this, I'm also feeling pretty good. Like, I get that 4 is a lot for the deck, but it seems like the expectations for this were maybe set a bit too high? As a single 4 mana Ephara trigger machine, it really doesn't need to do that much to be worth it I feel. All that said, you guys have the experience here; I just think if I'm going to get burned on Faerie Artisans, I'll have to learn it myself and get burned before I cut it because I'm not really seeing a bad card here. Anything my opponents always want to immediately remove or play around to hate out is probably something effective enough it should stay in the deck.
Alright, I've overlooked some of the ways of getting rid of Gryff. And I'm even running Crystal Shard atm, which is another out you don't have in yours. (What are your thoughts on that card by the way?) I can definitely see what you mean about blocking the potent stuff, then just getting rid of him when you need to. I'll put him back in alongside Sakashima's student as a new addition and outlet and see how he fares with some more thoughtful play on my part. Speaking of which, you definitely sold me on the student. I'll give him a shot over the double.
I totally missed the exile clause on Teferi's. Fortunately, I don't think I've ever actually cheated or benefitted from that, but it definitely weakens its appeal. Also, with the decks general goal of running creatures for effects like that over instants, maybe Selfless Spirit makes more sense for that style of Wrath prevention?
Re:deck philosophy as a whole- aggro control is fine, great even, as that's ultimately my favorite style of deck. (Death and Taxes is my favorite constructed deck of all time, and this is basically expanding that strategy to a commander sized level) I'm keeping more of your tutors than not- enlightened and mystical are the ones are the chopping block for being not attached to creatures/less specialized than Recruiter of the Guard, SFM, and Spellseeker, which are all in the deck. My build is going to be more close to yours than not, though I'm seeing/expecting around 7 cards difference.
You think Karador would be much stronger than Tymna/Sidar? Not disagreeing; just curious. I thought that pair together looked particularly good just because you devote all your slots to hatebears similar to this deck and let Tymna draw you gas in the absence of needing dedicated draw engines. (and in my meta- Tymna draws 5 cards! Might as well punish them for 6 player games if we're going to keep at it. :P) Sidar's ability to convert all our hatebears to actual effective combat tools which lets them enable Tymna in turn didn't look too shabby to me either. Karador does have a pretty powerful line of text or two on him though, and I haven't played with either to know.
Thanks again for the detailed response!
Looking at running a new deck for Vegas commander fun and wanted to make an aggro deck that could hold on its own in a semi competitive to competitive environment. Since I also don't like running infinite combos or stax, that means I need a fairly powerful CA engine and disruptive elements to my aggro deck to stand a chance. This deck caught my eye so I've been working on a list for it and I think I'll either be running with this or a junk hatebears deck helmed by Sidar Kondo and Tymna.
Few things- I'm comfortable playing powerful cards and the usual broken artifact accelerants- so crypt and ring are fine- but I do generally restrain myself from stuff like Timestream Navigator, which I gather hasn't been an essential part of the deck anyways, so shouldn't be too much of a loss. I also try to run only a handful of limited tutors as I don't like running the same lines of play every commander game. Stuff like the new BBD 3 drop that fetches very specifically a 2 cmc or less instant/sorc is fine. Muddle the Mixture is probably fine too. But I might stop shy of something like Enlightened Tutor, which might be a bit too general and just approaching too many tutors in general anyways. How reliant is this deck on tutoring up specific stuff each game? Is just playing out the hatebears I get and relying on Ephara's card draw engine likely good enough for a semi competitive environment?
Some specific card questions I was thinking of adding in place of some of the stuff I'm cutting-
Scroll Rack- the deck already has Land Tax and some ways to shuffle unwanted cards with fetches, tutors resetting the deck. Would this be an alright piece to add or is it simply unnecessary if Land Tax is already online and Ephara so easy to trigger? Might be going too deep on the draw engines.
Trading Post- Tested a few token generators and this has actually been my favorite in self played testing games against myself lol. The 1 mana is a real thing, but being on an artifact instead of a creature is a little bit more resilient and the flexibility of the artifact outside triggering Ephara seems great. Particularly its ability to recur powerful artifacts like Cloudstone Curio or the SFM target equipment.
Faerie Artisans- Alright, I know this has been controversial from what I've read at the front and back of the thread, so I'm going to go back and read those comments instead of asking yall to reiterate. I've just found it great in testing and it seems tailor made for the deck so I'm kind of astounded its been such a source of heated debate. It's also just a cool fun card.
Hushwing Gryff- this is a card I took out of the deck from testing. It just kills so many other cards in the deck, from powerful cipt creatures to Cloudstone Curio to effectively killing a ton of the utility of things like Eldrazi Displacer that aren't directly affected by it.
Snapcaster Mage Spellseeker- My current build runs about 9 instants and sorceries total. Now, they are great targets so I don't mind leaving these cards in with so few things to hit, but I was just curious if you felt there was a needed critical mass to make these worth running. What do you think the most essential Spellseeker cards to include in general are? What about Muddle the Mixture targets?
Stunt Double- I see the advantages of a card like Sakashima's Student, but I would assume the flash utility of Stunt Double would make it a either a worthy replacement or at least an addition to some of the clones in the deck. Is it not being run simply because you guys don't own/haven't tested it or has it been tested and found worse than the other clones being run?
Winding Canyons- not a lot to say here. Seems like a natural fit for the deck; is it just too mana intensive?
Silumgar Sorcerer- A counterspell that triggers Ephara, can leverage any Solider/Goat/Faerie tokens lying around, and can be recurred/blinked to counter more stuff with instant speed blink or return to hand effects/blinking Sun Titan if its in the graveyard. I'm assuming this was tested and found wanting at some point too?
Teferi's Protection- I tend to prefer to run this in any heavy board investment deck that's also white and commonly leaves up mana for the opponent's turns, especially if that deck also runs Snapcaster Mage. However, no way to tutor it in my build (you guys at least have Mystical Tutor in yours) might mean its not worth a slot. What do you think?
Thanks in advance for any feedback you might have!
-Causes reflector mage to bounce two things
-Lets reflector mage trigger champion and lieutenant twice
-Lets meddling mage trigger lieutenant twice
That's it. That's not enough to be worth taking a precious 2 drop spot, especially since he's just a vanilla 2/1 that does nothing else without either of those two cards etb'ing.
I'm definitely down for trying out Geist. I began my testing with this deck with Tamada's list so I haven't had experience with Geist to call it bad or good and I could certainly see how, in theory, it works for the more tempo ish burn heavy variants. I do think the evasive and flash aspects of Queller specifically are being underrated in some comparisons I'm seeing, however.
For the sideboard, I've been entertaining the idea of a semi transformational board in a few slots. In order to address the heavily graveyard dependent metagame we see of late, I'd really like to be able to run Rest in Peace, as mentioned earlier. Alongside it, I'd like to run another couple of cards to sub in in place of some knots/snapcasters so our own gy dependent cards don't hold us back. Between those and some split of Knots/other counters in the main deck, I feel we could make the shift without losing too much power. This plan would have the additional benefit of being usable- minus the rest in peace-
in matchups where we expect grave hate to come in vs us. Here's some candidates I was thinking of:
THREATS:
Part of Snapcaster's utility in the deck is the classic bolt-snap-bolt play pattern. In subbing in threats in place of them, we can maintain pressure even without the ability to reuse our burn. This has additional benefit when using the no gy plan against decks bringing in hate, as not only do they have dead cards, but additional pressure in the face of their slowed tempo is even more effective.
Geist of Saint Traft- Already used in some builds, a hexproof threat that nearly always gets in at least 4 damage seems solid here to me.
Vendilion Clique- Also already run in some builds/boards. Traditionally used more for hand disruption than pure pressure, a flash 3/1 flyer in the worst case seems an ok substitute for snappy in graveless games if putting pressure on the opponent is a goal.
Spellstutter Sprite- One totally left field idea I had was subbing in a mini faeries package in place of the snappies and knots using both cliques and sprites. ~6 more flyers alongside Quellers would up the onboard pressure complimenting our burn substantially and, with the heavy focus in modern on effiency these days- Death's Shadow being renowned for the power of its one drops- Sprites aren't dependent on maintaining a critical mass of Faeries onboard to hit a spell. Also gets around stubborn denial the same way queller does. My two concerns are that a) removal on the first sprite in response to its trigger kills the value whereas snappy usually guarantees it and b) Living End/Dredge hardcast threats and GDS delve threats are too expensive to hit with Sprite.
Young Pyromancer- Effectively the same cmc as Snappy for value- 2 mana + the cost of a spell alongside him. Offers a go wide angle other decks are unlikely to prepare for coming out of our sideboard. Against dredge and living end- places where we'd naturally want to be on the no gy plan- allows us to clog up the board, putting a number of obstacles in the way of their hardcast threats.
Monastery Mentor- The pricier Pyro. Wouldn't be worth mentioning in my mind except this isn't a traditional control deck- going aggressive with burn and prowess triggers is a legitimate strategy here. Also has the side benefit of working with Kozilek's Return, if you've taken it up in your sideboard, unlike Pyro.
Dragonlord Ojutai- Super pricey, but another hexproof threat like Geist that also lends the deck a CA engine. Probably too expensive though.
Keranos, God of Storms- Would largely represent the same thing as Ojutai, though less likely to eat a removal spell than Ojutai on attack but less effective in general. Style points though.
CARD ADVANTAGE
The other big advantage of Snappy in the deck is that it's one of the few CA elements the tempo-ish builds actually have, unusual for a control deck. Instead of subbing in pressure in his place, we could look at other ways of getting additional cards.
Ancestral Vision- Already a mainstay in other control lists, it's slow but does generate more CA than even snappy did. Less mana required too.
Jace Beleren- Tamada was already running this in his board. Has promise in slower matchups, but not sure how I'd feel against creature/burn heavy decks. Tapping out 3 mana at sorcery speed is also not my favorite thing to do.
Jace, Architect of Thought- Big brother Jace. Better draw and can also hold his own vs some graveyard centric threats should they hit the battlefield before rest in peace comes down or be hardcast- Narcos, Bloodghasts, and Souls come to mind. Pricier though.
Would love thoughts if you have experience with testing any of these or just general reactions to the idea of a gy less sb plan. If this seems totally crazy and unfeasible, please say so, as most of you have more experience with the archetype than I do.
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Re: electrolyze, While I board out Electrolyze a lot too, I still like it a lot in this counters company, 5c humans, affinity, elves heavy meta. It's also, somewhat less intuitively, the burn spell of choice to flash back off Snapcaster most times when working on burning the opponent out. Sure, your other burn spells hit for 1 point more, but Jeskai isn't a traditional burn deck where the density of burn spells is so high you can just go pedal to the medal. The draw effect is more valuable than the extra point of damage in testing.
This is exactly what I was thinking. There's no one advocating quellers that wasn't at one point skeptical of the idea of running a 3 mana remand that gets blanked by removal. It just works out so much better in practice if you play them with even a marginal amount of thought.
-Spell Queller has totally exceeded expectations. The card has always felt good, even against decks with loads of removal game 1. If it ends up being remand + shock/bolt/char, that's pretty much the low end. Plenty of other times it does even more damage or exiles an uncounterable/recurrable spell or exiles something like a chalice or counter that is just straight up worse when freed from the queller. You do have to play a bit smart with it, but it definitely is worth the include and I was a skeptic initially.
-Logic knot, on the other hand, has felt.... just ok. It's not pleasantly surprised me but it hasn't disappointed me much either. I do have some concerns about it, though. One, I expect a ton of graveyard hate at GP Vegas. Assuming my opponents can strip my yard post board, it gets a lot worse as a counter. Additionally, some of the deck's harder matchups, in my experience, are other decks that utilize the graveyard heavily, like dredge and storm. I'd like to be able to shore up these matchups with some sideboard slots dedicated to graveyard hate- ideally RiP- but the current deck leans pretty heavily on both snapcaster and logic knot too much to justify running RiP. I feel that if I could swap to a counter that wasn't so tied to the yard, I might be able to justify using the RiPs.
-Most of the expected high prevalence decks going into the GP for the metagame are good matchups I'd say. Grixis Death's Shadow feels slightly favored, CoCo decks are significantly favored, and Affinity feels favored too- even without Kozilek's Return. I've beaten affinity 3 times 2-0 without even drawing the return and it hasn't felt super lucky. All of our burn spells kill any of their creatures short of champion, electrolyze is a 2-3 for one a decent amount of the time, and paths are great answers to ravagers, as they have to choose between getting the land or getting their counters moved. Post board, spreading seas kill their manlands, wear/tear provides an additional spot removal spell that can also kill platings, and lavamancer chews through their team. I'm thinking of dropping the Kozi's return at this point, but I'll give it a little longer. Might opt for anger instead to gain some points against dredge?
Which brings me to my questions for you guys. Those of you that have played Tamada's list-
1) What do you think our best tactic is for dealing with Dredge?
2) What about Gifts Storm?
3) Is there any way the deck can shift to running some grave hate and, if so, what do you guys think the best candidates will be?
Not too concerned about the storm matchup as, while I expect it to be present in Vegas, I don't think it's super common. Dredge, on the other hand, has grown in popularity again enough to be worth having a plan for.
Edit: Really enjoying this list in testing!
Re: the kozilek's return idea above- how is that working out for you? I've wondered if it was worth having as well but my one concern there is that the grim lavamancers do a lot of work, and the matchups where id want the lavamancers are also where I'd want the return. Seems like there'd be a bit of a nonbo.
Here's the list:
4x Concealed Courtyard
1x Foreboding Ruins
4x Inspiring Vantage
5x Mountain
1x Shambling Vent
1x Plains
4x Swamp
2x Fatal Push
2x Transgress the Mind
3x Cathartic Reunion
4x Tormenting Voice
1x Declaration in stone
1x Dispossess
1x Painful Truths
2x Sweltering Suns
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Never // Return
1x Heaven // Earth (Yes, there's no way to actually cast Heaven. No, it doesn't matter. Getting a free sweeper off a rummage is great)
3x Nahiri, the Harbinger
3x Liliana, Death's Majesty
3x Goblin Dark-dwellers
1x Archfiend of Ifnir
1x Linvala, the Preserver
1x Noxious Gearhulk
2x Void Winnower
1x Nahiri's Wrath
1x Sweltering Suns
1x Transgress the Mind
2x Dispossess
3x Painful Truths
2x Magma Spray
1x Never // Return
3x Sin Prodder
I would say the deck is favored against every matchup except UR control, where they have countermagic for your pws and can punish the rummage spells.To that end, I've added more painful truths to the side to replace some of your rummages, so counters aren't backbreaking and they actually need to counter the spells more as you draw more off them. Sin prodders are brought in as well as an additional threat that can dump dudes in the yard in place of the rummage spells. They also abuse the new split card rules which, ironically enough, were created to prevent other abuses. A sin prodder will flip never to return for 7 damage, for example, even though the spell you care about casting is 3 mana. The mardu vehicles matchup is pretty close too, since you have to line up specific answers. The deck has them, but you need to have them in quick order to deal with their pressure.
Some other notes:
-GDD is excellent here. I upped the count from 1 to 2, then 2 to 3 in testing. 4 might even be appropriate. He synergizes so well with all the discarding, reanimating, and, specifically sweltering suns, which he can use to keep the board clear while living himself.
-The maindeck dispossess is a nice weapon against marvel that also hits UR control and mardu with a bit less impact. The deck has so much rummaging that getting to a special tech piece or discarding it if you draw it and don't need it isn't an issue at all. Similar logic to heaven to earth here.
-The playstyle is that you generally function as a Mardu control deck for the first few turns, removing your opponents creatures and using your rummage spells to make your land drops, find your pws, and get critters in the yard. If you can turn 5 a void winnower, you will end most matchups outside Mardu on the spot. (Look at the marvel lists- Whirler Virtuoso is literally their only maindeck path to victory once winnower hits the board)
-The deck is exceptional at dealing with non creature permanents and especially at exiling permanents, with the single anguished unmaking, cast outs, dec in stone, and nahiris. This is by design, as it gives the deck the ability to kill a resolved marvel after one spin as well as the ability to deal with ulamogs. You're also less exposed to random problematic non creature permanents game 1.
--Ulting Nahiri is great in this deck. One opponent made the critical mistake of putting me dead on board several ways instead of dropping Nahiri lower. I ulted Nahiri for Noxious Gearhulk, killed his Avacyn and his gideon as his token could not block the menacing gearhulk without Avacyn still alive, then returned the Gearhulk to my hand, buying me a ton of room. Next turn, I replayed the gearhulk from hand and there was no coming back from that for my opponent. Ulting to grab Linvala and GDD is often great too; there was even one game, not in this set, where I ulted for Void Winnower to kill them through all their even cost blockers. (they can only respond to the ult; they don't actually get to respond to the VW etbing so that shut off all their removal)
Looking at your list above for comparison, some notes-
-I originally had the demon of dark schemes in instead of archfiend as well, but found the ability to cycle the demon better than the higher payoff of the demon. You can also repeatedly cycle through cards, so the fiend can sweep bigger boards. That said, he hasn't been amazing in testing either and I didn't get the demon on board that often, so I'm not positive this is correct yet. The cycling is probably more important than the creature stats on either.
-Pick the brains is pretty interesting. I didn't keep track of it, but I have to imagine delirium is pretty easy to hit? Can be GDD'd as well. Might be worth testing.
-I thought about cut // ribbons but didn't know where I'd want it. Cut is good against heavy pressure decks but less good against control. Ribbons is the exact opposite- we don't exert enough pressure against aggro decks to make ribbons a viable threat, especially if taking advantage of extra lands to rummage away. Control's threats are bigger than cut can kill, so you're playing it pretty much just for ribbons. (Although in post board games I could see it being useful to kill TiTis and outcasts) Like I said, though, I only thought about it. Haven't tested so can't say for sure.
-If there's one change I would suggest from my list to yours, besides the pure power of the Winnower, it would be to up your Death's Majesty and Nahiri counts. They're by far the most powerful cards in the deck and the tools that really make it work. Last Hope is pretty interesting- I didn't think of trying it because I was more focused on reanimating instead of rebuying, but the threats in this deck are pretty castable so it could be good. I might try dropping a death's majesty for 1 to test on the next run.
Would love for others to test both lists and give feedback too. As long as it remains an unknown quantity, the deck is a potent weapon against aggro and Marvel decks alike.
Re:buying cards before testing- that's basically how I always go about it. It's hard to test with them otherwise. I do usually do a bit of research, inquiry, (like these forum posts) and watch other people play before committing, though. I feel comfortable learning through others.
How disadvantaged do you think the two color lists are vs. the three color brews you and Bahra have been testing? What about the three color brew missing the Chalice? I don't want to commit to a deck that feels strictly worse just for budget reasons, but if those lists have game, just requiring a different style of play, I'd consider them. Of the two two color lists mentioned, I assume you still prefer RW?
Thanks Phil! Appreciate the new article too, even if it's disheartening for someone just starting to play the archetype. I watched a few hours of his streams. The 3 color variants look pretty acceptable, if a bit unstable. I do feel I'm at a bit of a crossroads here re:Vegas.
Option 1 is to simply go for sealed/modern/side events and accept that a) my current DNT list isn't in a good place right now and b) I have no real experience piloting the deck, just a lot of observing it. (Now, I tend to be fine learning that way- I took Ad Nauseam to Vancouver, which was both my first GP and first modern event period and day 2'd without any trouble. I think DNT is more tricky than AN though)
Option 2 is to take the current list and play it. It's the list I have the most experience watching and I wouldn't have to buy new cards.
Option 3 is to try one of the three color builds. I don't own a single dual land, but I could probably swing 2 plateaus and 1 scrubland or 2 scrublands. I cannot, however, afford city of traitors or chalice of the void OR ancient tomb on top of the duals, which invalidates a lot of the work you guys have been putting out for me. I currently own 2 cavern of souls and could probably pick up the other 2 depending on what the rest of the costs look like. I have pontiffs; no magi though.
Option 4 is a two color splash. The manabase would be more affordable/consistent and the deck probably a tad easier to pilot without having to worry about weird mana draws/wastelands crushing my caverns. I don't know how good the RW and BW builds are, though, as it seems like the community has shifted from monowhite straight to 3 color. I did see an interesting black white list 5-0 the league yesterday (Darwonynx here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-25) that I wouldn't mind trying (plus a pontiff in the mb)Pontiff seems like the best solution to merfolk/TNN and Bob is a nice engine. Kambal looks like a decent card to address both the weak burn matchup and combo, in theory and Kaya, Ghost Assassin is very interesting. No idea how good she actually is though. Does anyone here have experience playing her in any D and T variant?
Black does lack the instant win button that is Magus of the Moon in some matchups, however, so I could also try going for a straight RW build with a bit more red available to bring in Sudden Demise out of the side. Wouldn't answer TNN but I could run a Judgment or two as well in the sb.
What do you guys think the best option is, given a constrained budget for adding new cards and no play experience with the deck?
Edit: Also, totally random aside, how do people feel about Goblin Sharpshooter as a potential alternative to Sparkmage against Elves?
Edit: Ignore that last suggestion. I blame sickness. Didn't realize it only affected creatures and pws, and theres little reason for our deck to have put either in their graveyard.
I saw a PW list similar to the regionals one that ran a Sarkhan Dragonspeaker in place of 1 of the 2 Sun's Champions. That seems like a decent sidegrade, as it does present a faster clock and can still remove a threat if needed.
List is here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/569536#online
Also considering mainboarding a single Fuliminator Mage. It can take out a tron land, present a clock until needed for that, and take out key lands in other matchups. Worse comes to worst, could just pitch it to Nahiri.