I think with this hatebear every non Death and Taxes deck will suffer a lot. Actually it's a great anti-blue card.
For protecting against hate we have Chain of Vapor that is simply awesome. Cast it on your Lotus Petal to get +1 storm, then sac a land to bounce the hate.
I see, the U/B version of this deck could use some Peer Through Dephts (although Lim Dul's Vault does it better). The main problem I see with U/B is how you're going to make U when going off, since you will generate lots of BBB and none U.
This is why i had proposed many of the cheap duals to provide U for us. As lotus petal and land are our only blue sources. However, our current iteration also includes more black accelerants and Infernal Contract as the main draw engine as BBBBBB isn't nearly as hard to make. Using Gitaxian Probe,[CARD] Sensei's Divining Top
[/CARD], Night's Whisper, and/or Street Wraith provide us many outs to needing blue mana.
Also, 1U is generally expensive for a cantrip. There are better ways to dig deep, or cantrip. I chose LDV due to its precision in finding EXACTLY what we need. I couldn't find a way to mimic burning wish in a budget build that could act as a toolbox of answers and be doomsday copies 4,5,6. In our build without top + fetches + brainstorm + fetches, 6 copies of Doomsday wasn't going to be enough and i wanted 8 reliable draws that can be counted as Doomsday. We absolutely have to find it to win.
i think fow could work, but it would not be so awesome in this deck since you need something to pitch for.
since this deck is slow I was thinking about lotus bloom. It can replace the first LED, what do you guys think?
FoW isn't budget, also there has been previous discussion as to why it does not work.
Lotus bloom is risky, it can't fill LED spot because you cannot use it for piles, and if you draw it other than opening hand, it's relatively worthless. It makes a slow deck.... slower.....
What about Blood Celebrant? To me it seems a good mana filter, since you'll generate tons of black mana anyways
It's a creature, which is probably the first and foremost reason to dismiss it. Also, I don't think color filtering is too much of a problem with a 2 color deck. Especially one that can really just use 1. However early on the second can make it significantly faster.
Other wise, Chromatic sphere/star are nearly as efficient + they draw cards, + they aren't creatures. It's a significant advantage that we don't have creatures, as this way any Swords To Plowshares or Innocent bloods are simply dead draws, and makes our deck much more efficient at beating decks with wasted draws.
There are reasons combo decks bring in creatures like Dark Confidant in game 2, expecting that said useless removal form game 1 has probably been boarded out.
Hey, Glad to see activity here. I haven't looked at this in awhile but maybe i can answer some questions.
Top: Would still be amazing, if you have it put it in. The recurrable shuffling of top 3 is awesome, and gives you another 4 options of a "free" cantrip for the top of the pile. Even without the fetchlands it would be worthwhile.
Burning Wish: $$$$$$ so we started down a new path. LDV seemed(to me) to be the most consistent way to find DD. If you've played DDFt or any combo, we are HEAVILY reliant on DD, so without cantrips + top + fetches to find our copies (in DDFT you have 6 3x Burning wish 3x DD), here we only have 4, I wouldn't want to risk the consistency of only cantrips. need something more concrete.
Getting storm count. You rarely need to hit someoen for 20 pts. Oftentimes it's only 16-18. Which means you need less storm than you were thinking. I think in the first post i list some lines of play for generating storm. (hint: there's a lot).
Using the Fetchland Shell. Doomsday is fundamentally different. And you find you cant hit storm the same way. Without protection you basically forfeit if they counter after doomsday. Anything less than 4x probe will be difficult to flip the top of the pile. Rite of flame wont help you reach BBB2U in any way. DD is a little slower but more consistent, so having sac lands was found to be too much of a gamble.
Plunge, spoils, etc, life loss is extremely important. Having less than 4 is problematic, many games come down to your opponent being able to bolt you after DD. Knocking your self below 10 then is detrimental.
I think this covers a lot.... if i missed anything let me know.
Imo, i think ETW would be a good include over plunge. It might up you consistency for large turn 2 plays without the risk of plunge. And may also fare better against real world decks.
It's worth testing. Otherwise, I feel this deck begins to lose the redundancy and also, you limit yourself having to be able to fully storm out, where oftentimes turn 2 empty the warren with a storm of 5+ETW (12) tokens, can go the distance.
Also, I think ETW has become stronger and stronger as cards like Engineered Explosives don't see the same amount of play they use to.
Not to mention, plunge is an extremely large investment, and if it doesn't pan out, you lose for sure.
Thanks:)
I just kind of felt like the discard spells are useless IMO. they don't really help you storm, and they can be a dead draw late game, so I was just thinking of ways to replace them
But they are proactive ways of dealing with problems, so it's ok
They are the most important cards late game. The biggest fear of playing combo are not knowing what your opponent can do to win and combo spells.
The nice thing with doomsday, is that when you can win, you know 100% you win. There's no chance. So making sure you know what your opponent has or removing the problems are absolutely key.
If we wanted a faster deck, we'd be playing budget belcher, in which many of those suggestions would probably fit.
Would conjurer's bauble be good in the deck? It is another cantrip that can be used, even if you don't put anything back on the bottom.
and is overmaster good in the deck? It does stop counterspells. And in desperate situation, acts as a cantrip. wild cantor looks pretty good too, chump blocks, adds mana, etc, is he any good?
These questions suggest you should read through the entire thread and proxy up the deck first as you don't have a very clear understanding of how the deck operates and fundamental theory.
Or if you are going to suggest stuff take the time to argue as to why they would be good suggestions as opposed to just receiving an onslaught of noes.
EDIT: sorry, i didn't have time for this before....
Let me break this down for sake of argument: conjurer's bauble : Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith, Sensei's Divining Top, All do what this card can and more. The best option's including SDT and Probe, but in the budget forum top becomes a concern. Top does what the bobble does in addition to letting you set up for following turns. Getting to see 3 new cards a turn, of course in the non-budget versions fetch lands make this 10x more effective as you can repeatedly see new cards.....
overmaster: The only card we want to protect like this is doomsday and burning wish, but cards like duress and silence do this and more... Overmaste is reactive, however the other cards are pro-active. These cards force you to deal with those, ignoring the more importan cards. WIth these cards they must waste counterspells and resources to deal with less than lethal cards, but also give you as the combo player a lot of information.
wild cantor looks pretty good too, chump blocks, adds mana, etc, is he any good?
Creatures in any form defeat a major upside of combo. Not playing creatures can make 4+ cards of any deck absolutely useless.
Playing Swords To Plowshares, Innocent blood, Lightning Bolt, etc....becomes 4+ worthless cards in the deck. Every wasted card becomes an advantage for us to win on. As game 1, none of our cards are useless. Things like duress, silence, orim's chant,cabal therapy, etc.. can be game winners in any match. But here we go back to the idea of how much we need to know about their deck and what in their deck is prohibitive to us winning. because many of our cards are resources to us winning making their cards useless becomes that much more important. The downside to being faster than other decks, is many of our cards are worthless by themselves.
Hello
I've been looking for a combo deck lately and I was wondering if I could try Doomsday.
Would Amulet of Vigor be viable in this deck? It does make all tapped lands come in untapped.
And would progenitus be a good replacement for emrakul if you're planning to run the shelldock isle combo on sideboard?
Amulet isn't worth it. As it doesn't really contribute much to the deck especially as we start to move away from sac lands.
If you're looking for it towards the SI combo may as well run Twiddle i think it is.... As it has multiple uses (even then fairly useless).
Proggy doesn't work as well as Emmy because without the annihilator effect you cannot guarantee the victory in t minus 2 turns. You run into the issue where they get Batterskull and life steal themselves up until you deck yourself. They find Wrath of God, Perish , etc or swing with enough creatures to kill you as you are most likely at < 5 life post doomsday.
The clock is there but without the annihilator trigger you are in a much much much riskier situation.
I'm making my first foray into combo in legacy, and I'm thinking of getting this cause it looks amazingly fun =)
Now, I don't know about the different-budgeted builds, so could one of you more experienced guys tell me what the best possible (most expensive?) build is? I have basically everything storm-related except for LEDs. The card I'm most wondering about is Chrome Mox, if it is any good in this.
Chrome mox is only good in TES/ANT. It doesn't tend to be useful in budget builds because you can't capitalize off the speed, or use it like TES/ANT do post ad'nauseum.
It appears myself and others have been using Ebon Stronghold in the BR list when Peat Bog is the better choice. Just made that discovery yesterday and wanted to share.
Arguably.....
If stronghold is your first land played. Turn 2/3/4 may be used to set up chromatic's, duress/therapies or night's whispers. And only getting two use's from Peat Bog can be problematic.
There is some merit to it, as you can save a turn probably often enough by being able to duress/sphere on the same turn, but as soon as you have to play 3 things, i think it falls off in the long run.
Also, against control and grindy games, you will find the limited use of peat bog problematic.
Plus manabase, if Gemstone Mine and City of Brass don't serve. Currently, I will not use the deck in tournament, but in the future who knows. After I've practiced well with DDFT, and my budget allow, i can buy the more expensive cards.
City is going to be painful, as are shocks, that's why we are sticking to 2 colors. You can't afford to take damage every turn, and you need the multi colored lands to insure you can brainstorm/ponder/etc turns 1-3 and also have the black mana as much as possible turns 2-4. But if you take 5 from your land + x from your opponent, you may not have enough life for DD + IC. Or even to DD and avoid dying to other shenanigans like lightning bolt/etc.
I Need not be exactly this list. I need a budget list to start, because i never played with DDFT and dont know what card is better then other (in budget).
Tanks !
You want it in addition. Although personally SI/Emrakul is still another viable option but these give you a gameplan against heavy control when you probably wont get the chance to cast 10 spells but dont want to be dead in the water holding onto DD. this way you can force DD through (early usually) and worst case draw your pile the hard way and then win with a "smaller" combo.
Also, there really is no reason for 12x targeted discard. I would find something with more targeted hate. Graveyard, dread of night, etc... get more focused proactive hate in those spots.
Also, i havent really played recently, but does anyone have opinions on 4x Lim-dul's vault.... i feel like 3 lim dul and 3 preordain might be better. Lim-dul in excess isn't helpful and cantrips are so valuable for drawing into the pile. Just a thought.
@ThatVladGuy: Congratualations! That's awesome to hear. Sorry I haven't been around much. Had recently sold most of my collection (sans cheap storm cards) so haven't been as motivated to be on the forums.
However if people keep showing interest I can make sure to check in and throw some ideas around.
p.s. Hoping to over the course of the next year buy back into DDFT/TES.
The cantrip effect alone isn't really worth the 1 mana.
Although looitng offers no direct CA, it offers card quality, which is generally more important. Also Faithless Looting synergizes well with Past in Flames. As it gives us useful cards in hand, and buries more into the graveyard to be used via PiF. Also, looting can be used multiple times.
The bauble is just worse than the stars/spheres as at least they offer utility.Why play bauble if you are looking for a "cheap" cantrip. Just add in more Gitaxian Probes/Street Wraiths.
I'd avoid this UU spell. It might be uncastable in several mana scenarios. And we need Meditate for the Lab Man pile
I still don't buy IGG totally in mainboard. But as I never piloted a DD deck before I might be ignorant. Maybe it adds resilience to the deck. If not, I'd replace it with one more ritual or cantrip and put IGG on SB.
Finally, Stompy, Do you really prefer Defense Grid instead of, say, some (3-4) Dispels against strong control decks? Some points:
- Quite often you need only one instance of it;
- You have the susprise element;
- It costs U against 2.
Edit: OTOH the Grid helps against burn. But I don't think it's worth the effort, dunno... maybe 2 of each... gosh, huge doubt huh? lol
Generally in combo proactive solutions are better. As they give you more knowledge. Defense grid can draw out counters, and make them spend mana. It also makes them start to do things like brainstorm during their turn so they cant be as tricky.
It also helps via burn. It doesn't cost mana on the combo turn. It may not be the best solution, however it is strong. And like xantid swarm, if it resolves, it's basically there for good.
I think surgical extraction would be better than the fairie, although budget might dictate that choice.
ANyone have a problem with Ideas Unbound? I find meditate is usually more effective honestly. I just like having meditate + contract for mana options/life options.
I really love the idea of doomsday decks and I have been tempted to get into legacy recently. I think sac-lands are awesome, but I am worried about investing in a budget deck, just to find out that it is simply worse than other decks I will likely face.
Does this deck have a fair fighting chance, or at least a potential to be upgraded with non-budget cards to get on par with other popular legacy decks? What would you recommend adding if budget is not an issue?
I saw Sr_Stompy mentioning he might write a non-budget decklist, if this is still a possibility then I for one would love to see that.
Just thought I would also say thanks to Stompy for this thread, seeing as without it, I don't see myself getting interested in legacy considering its prices (doomsday is totally worth it though:P)
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoy it.
As far as non-budget goes, you can go for 5 color or UBRg DDFT. Although to be honest if you don't have a budget and want to go for DDFT you are better off going to the stormboards as that is where most of the better DDFT pilots/creators discuss the deck.
The non-budget is very competitive, I went 6-3 with it at SCG milwaukee, this budget list is still unproven. The sac-lands tendrils deck however has placed at some decent sized events and has been proven at least somewhat competitive.
If you're interested in learning and upgrading to DDFT, this is probably a good place to start. And if you enjoy storm decks eventually you will need LED's anyhow. Which added to this version would make it far far stronger as it greatly reduces pile costs and increases available mana.
your deck priced on tcgplayer comes out at 458.94
a fully built wishless belcher(no wishes, and who plays thoughseize in belcher?) comes out at 526.68
is this deck still worth it being at 458 is what im asking. is it worht investing that much into the (what you have as 160.00) version, or would it be better to just fork out the extra 80 and have belcher finished which actually has results.
im not insulting the deck.
at 160.00 it would have been very much worth it.
at 458.00 is it really?
My list doesn't have thoughtseize? And most people here playing without wishes.
On top of that, wishless belcher is a budget choice, as all the top tier belchers run Wish main.
You're really skewing your facts to make this seem like its more than it is.... And belcher to be cheaper than it is.... Anyhow that's a topic for another thread, as this has been productive to the development of what's been showing some success for a budget deck.
This is why i had proposed many of the cheap duals to provide U for us. As lotus petal and land are our only blue sources. However, our current iteration also includes more black accelerants and Infernal Contract as the main draw engine as BBBBBB isn't nearly as hard to make. Using Gitaxian Probe,[CARD] Sensei's Divining Top
[/CARD], Night's Whisper, and/or Street Wraith provide us many outs to needing blue mana.
Also, 1U is generally expensive for a cantrip. There are better ways to dig deep, or cantrip. I chose LDV due to its precision in finding EXACTLY what we need. I couldn't find a way to mimic burning wish in a budget build that could act as a toolbox of answers and be doomsday copies 4,5,6. In our build without top + fetches + brainstorm + fetches, 6 copies of Doomsday wasn't going to be enough and i wanted 8 reliable draws that can be counted as Doomsday. We absolutely have to find it to win.
FoW isn't budget, also there has been previous discussion as to why it does not work.
Lotus bloom is risky, it can't fill LED spot because you cannot use it for piles, and if you draw it other than opening hand, it's relatively worthless. It makes a slow deck.... slower.....
It's a creature, which is probably the first and foremost reason to dismiss it. Also, I don't think color filtering is too much of a problem with a 2 color deck. Especially one that can really just use 1. However early on the second can make it significantly faster.
Other wise, Chromatic sphere/star are nearly as efficient + they draw cards, + they aren't creatures. It's a significant advantage that we don't have creatures, as this way any Swords To Plowshares or Innocent bloods are simply dead draws, and makes our deck much more efficient at beating decks with wasted draws.
There are reasons combo decks bring in creatures like Dark Confidant in game 2, expecting that said useless removal form game 1 has probably been boarded out.
Top: Would still be amazing, if you have it put it in. The recurrable shuffling of top 3 is awesome, and gives you another 4 options of a "free" cantrip for the top of the pile. Even without the fetchlands it would be worthwhile.
Burning Wish: $$$$$$ so we started down a new path. LDV seemed(to me) to be the most consistent way to find DD. If you've played DDFt or any combo, we are HEAVILY reliant on DD, so without cantrips + top + fetches to find our copies (in DDFT you have 6 3x Burning wish 3x DD), here we only have 4, I wouldn't want to risk the consistency of only cantrips. need something more concrete.
Getting storm count. You rarely need to hit someoen for 20 pts. Oftentimes it's only 16-18. Which means you need less storm than you were thinking. I think in the first post i list some lines of play for generating storm. (hint: there's a lot).
Using the Fetchland Shell. Doomsday is fundamentally different. And you find you cant hit storm the same way. Without protection you basically forfeit if they counter after doomsday. Anything less than 4x probe will be difficult to flip the top of the pile. Rite of flame wont help you reach BBB2U in any way. DD is a little slower but more consistent, so having sac lands was found to be too much of a gamble.
Plunge, spoils, etc, life loss is extremely important. Having less than 4 is problematic, many games come down to your opponent being able to bolt you after DD. Knocking your self below 10 then is detrimental.
I think this covers a lot.... if i missed anything let me know.
It's worth testing. Otherwise, I feel this deck begins to lose the redundancy and also, you limit yourself having to be able to fully storm out, where oftentimes turn 2 empty the warren with a storm of 5+ETW (12) tokens, can go the distance.
Also, I think ETW has become stronger and stronger as cards like Engineered Explosives don't see the same amount of play they use to.
Not to mention, plunge is an extremely large investment, and if it doesn't pan out, you lose for sure.
They are the most important cards late game. The biggest fear of playing combo are not knowing what your opponent can do to win and combo spells.
The nice thing with doomsday, is that when you can win, you know 100% you win. There's no chance. So making sure you know what your opponent has or removing the problems are absolutely key.
If we wanted a faster deck, we'd be playing budget belcher, in which many of those suggestions would probably fit.
These questions suggest you should read through the entire thread and proxy up the deck first as you don't have a very clear understanding of how the deck operates and fundamental theory.
Or if you are going to suggest stuff take the time to argue as to why they would be good suggestions as opposed to just receiving an onslaught of noes.
EDIT: sorry, i didn't have time for this before....
Let me break this down for sake of argument:
conjurer's bauble : Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith, Sensei's Divining Top, All do what this card can and more. The best option's including SDT and Probe, but in the budget forum top becomes a concern. Top does what the bobble does in addition to letting you set up for following turns. Getting to see 3 new cards a turn, of course in the non-budget versions fetch lands make this 10x more effective as you can repeatedly see new cards.....
overmaster: The only card we want to protect like this is doomsday and burning wish, but cards like duress and silence do this and more... Overmaste is reactive, however the other cards are pro-active. These cards force you to deal with those, ignoring the more importan cards. WIth these cards they must waste counterspells and resources to deal with less than lethal cards, but also give you as the combo player a lot of information.
wild cantor looks pretty good too, chump blocks, adds mana, etc, is he any good?
Creatures in any form defeat a major upside of combo. Not playing creatures can make 4+ cards of any deck absolutely useless.
Playing Swords To Plowshares, Innocent blood, Lightning Bolt, etc....becomes 4+ worthless cards in the deck. Every wasted card becomes an advantage for us to win on. As game 1, none of our cards are useless. Things like duress, silence, orim's chant, cabal therapy, etc.. can be game winners in any match. But here we go back to the idea of how much we need to know about their deck and what in their deck is prohibitive to us winning. because many of our cards are resources to us winning making their cards useless becomes that much more important. The downside to being faster than other decks, is many of our cards are worthless by themselves.
Amulet isn't worth it. As it doesn't really contribute much to the deck especially as we start to move away from sac lands.
If you're looking for it towards the SI combo may as well run Twiddle i think it is.... As it has multiple uses (even then fairly useless).
Proggy doesn't work as well as Emmy because without the annihilator effect you cannot guarantee the victory in t minus 2 turns. You run into the issue where they get Batterskull and life steal themselves up until you deck yourself. They find Wrath of God, Perish , etc or swing with enough creatures to kill you as you are most likely at < 5 life post doomsday.
The clock is there but without the annihilator trigger you are in a much much much riskier situation.
Chrome mox is only good in TES/ANT. It doesn't tend to be useful in budget builds because you can't capitalize off the speed, or use it like TES/ANT do post ad'nauseum.
Arguably.....
If stronghold is your first land played. Turn 2/3/4 may be used to set up chromatic's, duress/therapies or night's whispers. And only getting two use's from Peat Bog can be problematic.
There is some merit to it, as you can save a turn probably often enough by being able to duress/sphere on the same turn, but as soon as you have to play 3 things, i think it falls off in the long run.
Also, against control and grindy games, you will find the limited use of peat bog problematic.
City is going to be painful, as are shocks, that's why we are sticking to 2 colors. You can't afford to take damage every turn, and you need the multi colored lands to insure you can brainstorm/ponder/etc turns 1-3 and also have the black mana as much as possible turns 2-4. But if you take 5 from your land + x from your opponent, you may not have enough life for DD + IC. Or even to DD and avoid dying to other shenanigans like lightning bolt/etc.
You want it in addition. Although personally SI/Emrakul is still another viable option but these give you a gameplan against heavy control when you probably wont get the chance to cast 10 spells but dont want to be dead in the water holding onto DD. this way you can force DD through (early usually) and worst case draw your pile the hard way and then win with a "smaller" combo.
Also, there really is no reason for 12x targeted discard. I would find something with more targeted hate. Graveyard, dread of night, etc... get more focused proactive hate in those spots.
Also, i havent really played recently, but does anyone have opinions on 4x Lim-dul's vault.... i feel like 3 lim dul and 3 preordain might be better. Lim-dul in excess isn't helpful and cantrips are so valuable for drawing into the pile. Just a thought.
However if people keep showing interest I can make sure to check in and throw some ideas around.
p.s. Hoping to over the course of the next year buy back into DDFT/TES.
Although looitng offers no direct CA, it offers card quality, which is generally more important. Also Faithless Looting synergizes well with Past in Flames. As it gives us useful cards in hand, and buries more into the graveyard to be used via PiF. Also, looting can be used multiple times.
The bauble is just worse than the stars/spheres as at least they offer utility.Why play bauble if you are looking for a "cheap" cantrip. Just add in more Gitaxian Probes/Street Wraiths.
Generally in combo proactive solutions are better. As they give you more knowledge. Defense grid can draw out counters, and make them spend mana. It also makes them start to do things like brainstorm during their turn so they cant be as tricky.
It also helps via burn. It doesn't cost mana on the combo turn. It may not be the best solution, however it is strong. And like xantid swarm, if it resolves, it's basically there for good.
I think surgical extraction would be better than the fairie, although budget might dictate that choice.
ANyone have a problem with Ideas Unbound? I find meditate is usually more effective honestly. I just like having meditate + contract for mana options/life options.
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoy it.
As far as non-budget goes, you can go for 5 color or UBRg DDFT. Although to be honest if you don't have a budget and want to go for DDFT you are better off going to the stormboards as that is where most of the better DDFT pilots/creators discuss the deck.
The non-budget is very competitive, I went 6-3 with it at SCG milwaukee, this budget list is still unproven. The sac-lands tendrils deck however has placed at some decent sized events and has been proven at least somewhat competitive.
If you're interested in learning and upgrading to DDFT, this is probably a good place to start. And if you enjoy storm decks eventually you will need LED's anyhow. Which added to this version would make it far far stronger as it greatly reduces pile costs and increases available mana.
My list doesn't have thoughtseize? And most people here playing without wishes.
On top of that, wishless belcher is a budget choice, as all the top tier belchers run Wish main.
You're really skewing your facts to make this seem like its more than it is.... And belcher to be cheaper than it is.... Anyhow that's a topic for another thread, as this has been productive to the development of what's been showing some success for a budget deck.