You can't possibly stop 4 Squadron Hawks as long as they play it safe to avoid getting hit too badly by BSZ. And you've got nothing else to deal with a Sword of Feast and Famine. And an opponent only needs to use two coutnerspells to stop your Haunting Echos. And you're using 3 Evolving Wilds, for absolutely no reason.
Try playing something like Grave Titan or Wurmcoil Engine. Even if they get destroyed by a single removal spell, you'll still have some defenses. You also want to splash another color. I'd play red for Manic Vandal and Slagstorm.
3 BSZ, 2 Disfigure, 3 Doom Blade, 3 GFTT, 4 Ratchet bomb, 3 Gatekeeper. This is 18 answers, for their (9?) creature threats. Tectonic Edges take care of the man lands, Hexmage/Corrupt deal with Gideon. Yes, they gain 4-for-1 with Squawks, but they have dead cards -- this list doesn't really care about creature removal, Gatekeeper/Vampire are primarily there for utility, beating face comes second.
Ratchet Bomb can definitely deal with Swords. Not always, but it's possible. And it should be possible to simply answer all of their threats.
If you run Grave Titan, by the same logic it's just as vulnerable to Mana Leak as Echoes, is it not? And gets wiped by DoJ.
Again, this is all theorycrafting. I know most MBC decks like to just drop a Grave Titan and swing.
Not saying this deck is good -- but, if the Answer package were honed, with only 2-3 Echoes taking up space as wincons, couldn't that be good? I mean, you kill all of their stuff by turn ten, then Echoes them. What do they do?
Evolving Wilds was there to help with deck thinning, since this list often goes into the late game, where the deck thinning becomes more relevant. Figured 3 CITP lands wouldn't hurt that bad.
I know, I know. As is, this is a crap deck, with crap game. Not denying that. It wins sometimes, but I'm wondering if it's crap because the list is far from being optimized.
Nighthawks and crap are garbage, man.
This is how a game should go down:
The primary goal is not to swing with creatures, although that's possible. Primary goal is to answer all of their threats, Echoes them to remove any future threats. Then Echoes them again later on so all they're drawing is land. They'll be 20 cards below you, so mill is inevitable. Corrupts are another wincon, but they help fight RDW and kill Planeswalkers all in one.
Anyway, this is all theorycrafting, it took me to 6th place in a huge FNM but no one plays competitive decks at our FNMs. Just wondering if anyone out there could improve the concept or if it's just bad. Probably just bad.
So, I took 6th at FNM with the following list. Not impressive, I know. The deck, as it stands, is pretty weak, but wondering if this strategy has any potential (with improvement) or if it's just bad:
Stall your opponent, killing their creatures/planeswalkers until they have a sizable graveyard. Until both of you are in topdeck mode. Then drop Haunting Echoes to de-fang them. The late game suddenly takes a huge swing as their threat density drops to a few cards in-deck and whatever they're holding.
For Eldrazi, side in 4x Memoricide and 4x Sacrament. Sacrament their Eldrazi, and/or Memoricide. Your removal can take care of the Primevals. If you don't get a Sacrament but Memoricide, hit Primeval in that case. That's what I did and it worked (for the most part).
Anyway -- this list is pretty bad but I'm wondering if the overall Haunting Echoes strategy could work, provided a better list that can answer everything they play.
Part of the problem, of course, is that answers just suck lately. It's hard to be able to deal with everything they drop. Just run a bunch of threats and RNG them seems to be the best way. But I tried nonetheless.
Agreed on the format being stale. In my opinion, it's been stale since the arrival of Lorwyn. It could be my imagination, but there has been a decided shift in cards since Lorwyn. Pre-Ravnica cards are way different than Post-Lorwyn. Gone are the days of useful 2 and 3 mana enchantments. Useful CA, especially non-blue, is at an all-time low (Stoneforge/Hawks are the exceptions).
Three more points I'd like to add:
1) Competitive decks nowadays have noticeably less "tricks" as opposed to older decks. About the most interesting at the moment is the Swords/Stoneforge synergy. Gone are the days of Ghost Dad, Heartbeat, Madness, et all. This lends to a more boring, "I swing with X, you remove X? I play Y and swing. You remove Y? I play Z and swing."
2) The power of answers seem to continually diminish with each successive set. Yes, creature removal is still rampant as always, but there is no removal that answers everything like Mortify, Deed, Putrefy, etc once did. Counterspells are super lackluster. Currently, a traditional draw-go control deck is subpar to a deck that just spits out threats, proactive cards like IoK, and races the opponent.
3) Planeswalkers, as currently implemented, often result in swingy, lopsided games. This is especially noticeable with Gideon, where dropping him on an empty board vs an Aggro/Midrange player is pure insanity.
This is pretty much why I play Legacy now. Legacy goblins is about 1000x more fun to play than T2 RDW. T2 RDW = I drop a creature. I swing. You kill it. I drop another. I swing. You kill it. Wow. Exciting.
A 5/5 for four mana that Negators your opponent? All I have to say is -- if this card doesn't become top tier, what has the state of Magic become? Really?
Here's a control-infect list I'm working on. It's sort of geared for the current meta... I will be taking this to FNM, after improving it. Tell me what you think.
So far in testing this has been fairly robust. Tons of colorless defense which makes cards like Phyrexian Crusader less insane.
Stirrings: Serves as an excellent tutor here. Nabs proliferate cards, Magnets, Wurmcoils, whatever you may need.
Pistus Strike: Lots of available targets in the meta, from of course Hawks, to BoPs, Skyfisher, Baneslayer, Abyssal Persecutor, Skittles... can be thrown into the sideboard if necessary, but this allows you to deal the crucial 1 point of infect you need to proliferate.
Virulent Wound: Again, lots of targets... Hawks, BoPs, Cobras, Lynx, Pede, and so on. Can combo with Clasp to take out Guides. With Strike, you have 8 instant-speed answers to them equipping Hawks.
Wall of Tanglecord: Early defense that gets sacced to Throne later on. Blocks sword-carrying Hawks, Baneslayer (lifegain is irrelevant), and survives Guide + Bolt.
Tumble Magnet: Don't need to say anything here. Sacced to Throne later.
Clasp: Again, pretty self-explanatory.
Awakening Zone: Serves as Tumble Magnet 5-8. A constant stream of blockers that will nerf their ground offense. Makes Gideon somewhat irrelevant. This lets you survive until you proliferate enough. Also helps crank out a Wurmcoil T5 and lets you proliferate with double or triple Clasps.
Memoricide: For Eldrazi/Valakut. Maybe Zone should be replaced with Ratchet Bomb as it's an artifact, kills swords, and also, deals with Valakut's other win con (AoZ tokens).
Cards like Haunting Echoes don't work because you'd have to build around it for it to be really good. Lots of mill.
Do that, and you lose the ability to affect the board enough to save yourself from aggro past turn five.
Sure, you might get lucky, sometimes, draw 3 Hedron Crabs, multiple fetches into an Echoes for the rest of their library. Even then, even then, you'll have to deal with threats in-hand and on-table.
This card is insane. Instant speed removal. That hits anything in play. That's a huge trade-off for a 3/3 token.
Nod. That's what I figured. Thanks guys, just throwin' that out there.
3 BSZ, 2 Disfigure, 3 Doom Blade, 3 GFTT, 4 Ratchet bomb, 3 Gatekeeper. This is 18 answers, for their (9?) creature threats. Tectonic Edges take care of the man lands, Hexmage/Corrupt deal with Gideon. Yes, they gain 4-for-1 with Squawks, but they have dead cards -- this list doesn't really care about creature removal, Gatekeeper/Vampire are primarily there for utility, beating face comes second.
Ratchet Bomb can definitely deal with Swords. Not always, but it's possible. And it should be possible to simply answer all of their threats.
If you run Grave Titan, by the same logic it's just as vulnerable to Mana Leak as Echoes, is it not? And gets wiped by DoJ.
Again, this is all theorycrafting. I know most MBC decks like to just drop a Grave Titan and swing.
Not saying this deck is good -- but, if the Answer package were honed, with only 2-3 Echoes taking up space as wincons, couldn't that be good? I mean, you kill all of their stuff by turn ten, then Echoes them. What do they do?
Evolving Wilds was there to help with deck thinning, since this list often goes into the late game, where the deck thinning becomes more relevant. Figured 3 CITP lands wouldn't hurt that bad.
Plus how do you deal with a Sword-Hawk?
Nighthawks and crap are garbage, man.
This is how a game should go down:
The primary goal is not to swing with creatures, although that's possible. Primary goal is to answer all of their threats, Echoes them to remove any future threats. Then Echoes them again later on so all they're drawing is land. They'll be 20 cards below you, so mill is inevitable. Corrupts are another wincon, but they help fight RDW and kill Planeswalkers all in one.
Anyway, this is all theorycrafting, it took me to 6th place in a huge FNM but no one plays competitive decks at our FNMs. Just wondering if anyone out there could improve the concept or if it's just bad. Probably just bad.
(And no basic lands, so in any given game, they had around 30-40% of their threats while I had 100% of my answers)
The problem with most mill decks is that they usually don't affect the board state; this was a different approach.
1 Terramorphic Expanse
11 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Go for the Throat
3 Duress
2 Disfigure
3 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Haunting Echoes
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Corrupt
4 Sign in Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
1 Duress
2 Disfigure
4 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Memoricide
How it wins:
Stall your opponent, killing their creatures/planeswalkers until they have a sizable graveyard. Until both of you are in topdeck mode. Then drop Haunting Echoes to de-fang them. The late game suddenly takes a huge swing as their threat density drops to a few cards in-deck and whatever they're holding.
For Eldrazi, side in 4x Memoricide and 4x Sacrament. Sacrament their Eldrazi, and/or Memoricide. Your removal can take care of the Primevals. If you don't get a Sacrament but Memoricide, hit Primeval in that case. That's what I did and it worked (for the most part).
Anyway -- this list is pretty bad but I'm wondering if the overall Haunting Echoes strategy could work, provided a better list that can answer everything they play.
Part of the problem, of course, is that answers just suck lately. It's hard to be able to deal with everything they drop. Just run a bunch of threats and RNG them seems to be the best way. But I tried nonetheless.
And yeah, the reason PWs are so insane right now is because there is no Pulse, Ring, Blightning, or Needle.
Three more points I'd like to add:
1) Competitive decks nowadays have noticeably less "tricks" as opposed to older decks. About the most interesting at the moment is the Swords/Stoneforge synergy. Gone are the days of Ghost Dad, Heartbeat, Madness, et all. This lends to a more boring, "I swing with X, you remove X? I play Y and swing. You remove Y? I play Z and swing."
2) The power of answers seem to continually diminish with each successive set. Yes, creature removal is still rampant as always, but there is no removal that answers everything like Mortify, Deed, Putrefy, etc once did. Counterspells are super lackluster. Currently, a traditional draw-go control deck is subpar to a deck that just spits out threats, proactive cards like IoK, and races the opponent.
3) Planeswalkers, as currently implemented, often result in swingy, lopsided games. This is especially noticeable with Gideon, where dropping him on an empty board vs an Aggro/Midrange player is pure insanity.
This is pretty much why I play Legacy now. Legacy goblins is about 1000x more fun to play than T2 RDW. T2 RDW = I drop a creature. I swing. You kill it. I drop another. I swing. You kill it. Wow. Exciting.
Something to consider. I hear.
So far in testing this has been fairly robust. Tons of colorless defense which makes cards like Phyrexian Crusader less insane.
Anyway, here's the list.
5 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Khalni Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tectonic Edge
// Creatures
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Wall of Tanglecord
3 Ancient Stirrings
4 Contagion Clasp
4 Awakening Zone
4 Throne of Geth
4 Tumble Magnet
4 Pistus Strike
4 Virulent Wound
Choices:
Stirrings: Serves as an excellent tutor here. Nabs proliferate cards, Magnets, Wurmcoils, whatever you may need.
Pistus Strike: Lots of available targets in the meta, from of course Hawks, to BoPs, Skyfisher, Baneslayer, Abyssal Persecutor, Skittles... can be thrown into the sideboard if necessary, but this allows you to deal the crucial 1 point of infect you need to proliferate.
Virulent Wound: Again, lots of targets... Hawks, BoPs, Cobras, Lynx, Pede, and so on. Can combo with Clasp to take out Guides. With Strike, you have 8 instant-speed answers to them equipping Hawks.
Wall of Tanglecord: Early defense that gets sacced to Throne later on. Blocks sword-carrying Hawks, Baneslayer (lifegain is irrelevant), and survives Guide + Bolt.
Tumble Magnet: Don't need to say anything here. Sacced to Throne later.
Clasp: Again, pretty self-explanatory.
Awakening Zone: Serves as Tumble Magnet 5-8. A constant stream of blockers that will nerf their ground offense. Makes Gideon somewhat irrelevant. This lets you survive until you proliferate enough. Also helps crank out a Wurmcoil T5 and lets you proliferate with double or triple Clasps.
Memoricide: For Eldrazi/Valakut. Maybe Zone should be replaced with Ratchet Bomb as it's an artifact, kills swords, and also, deals with Valakut's other win con (AoZ tokens).
Do that, and you lose the ability to affect the board enough to save yourself from aggro past turn five.
Sure, you might get lucky, sometimes, draw 3 Hedron Crabs, multiple fetches into an Echoes for the rest of their library. Even then, even then, you'll have to deal with threats in-hand and on-table.