The Woo build is interesting, but I'm not sure it's optimal to run Grove now with the printing of Horror. Could use testing though, does seem good against Death's Shadow and that alone could merit reworking the mana base and therefore the rest of the deck. As an aside, has anyone tried running Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth alongside the four Grove? (Could help the deck's mana, with added bonus of giving Street Wraith evasion lol.)
That aside, I'm thinking of dropping the LD package altogether to focus on both speed and consistency (so include critical mass of 1 CMC cyclers, and drop SSG for consistency?).
In testing, seems really smooth so far. Kept some land-cyclers in lieu of the last Architect and LD.
Of note, when built like this our Blackcleave Cliffs, Blood Crypts, and fetch lands can each cycle every creature in the deck. The Blooming Marsh can also cycle everything save Ceredon. All the fetches can grab Dryad Arbor, and have included a basic Swamp and Forest to combat Blood Moon (which Verdant Catacombs can search up; and the Forest can be grabbed by Rannet too if needed).
The land cyclers are in there to a) ensure we hit our third land and generally color-fix as needed, b) give us some more game against Blood Moon (though most of our stuff can cycle through it, save the three Architects and four Horrors), c) fetch Dryad Arbor to more consistently have a creature to target with Demonic Dread, and d) fill the graveyard.
Compared to all that, the 2-cost cycling on Archfiend seems underwhelming, possibly just win-more (though I could see including him over some Shriekmaws and/or the Wolf Run, perhaps?). That said, haven't had a lot of opportunity to play-test him yet. Passing the Bolt test, being able to cast for 5 CMC, and having evasion AND another relevant ability does seem great.
Yes, I am running Wolf Run as my 19th land; it's been a very good top-deck late game for me for years. Hold it in your hand until an opponent has no blockers up late game, then either cast Beast your own land or fetch Dryad Arbor EOT, drop Run on your turn, pump and swing out of nowhere for lethal. Yes, this could compete with Horror as a mana-sink late game, but Horror still requires you to have cards in hand to buff, whereas Wolf Run just needs the mana (yes, Run requires a bit more mana, but the added Trample is often great).
Lastly, yes, I am only running 10 combo pieces, but I feel that with so many more cheap cyclers we are more likely to see them. Only issue I could see would be needing to go off more than once in a game, but this list can be adjusted as needed, and I do feel that these new critters do help us ensure that we're more likely than ever to win off of a single resolved LE (and if not, the main-decked Shriekmaws and Wolf Run also help to push through stalled boards).
I would love another good 1-drop, but it's only a matter of time until we get another Lightning Bolt.
Also, with us running so many fetches to support Lavamancer, why has the black splash (for Bump In the Night, NOT Bob, as bob is too slow) not had much success? Do Badlands really make us that much weaker to Wasteland? I realize the dis-synergy with Price, but it seems negligible compared to the possible benefits.
That said, how's this for a 2-drop?
Dome-bolter 1r
Creature - Human Wizard
Haste
When ~ enters the battlefield, search your library for two red instant cards with CMC 1, put them into your hand and then shuffle your library. ~ deals 3 damage to you.
2/1
Spitfire Hatchling 1r
Creature - Dragon
Flying, Haste, Firebreathing
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it deal 3 damage either to one player or divided as you choose among one, two, or three target creatures.
0/1
Spite-lasher
Creature - Elemental
Trample, haste
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it deal 2 damage to target creature or player. A player dealt damage this way cannot gain life for the rest of the game.
At end of turn, sacrifice ~.
3/1
So, I'm a bit underwhelmed by the deck recently. Thinking of going to the D.C. Open with Fish this weekend due to the resurgence of combo of late, but the amount of removal in decks out there is scary.
I really wish that we had a true shroud or hexproof-granting Merfolk lord (Kira doesn't really do enough anymore as it's useless against Decay), or maybe a Merfolk like Cursecatcher that you could also sacrifice to give hexproof or regenerate to another creature until end of turn in addition to the tax ability... I'm still holding out hope that Dragon's Maze will give us SOMETHING interesting, but it's not likely.
Are there any creatures out there that I'm missing that might help meet either of those demands (granting regenerate and/or hexproof)?
So, I've been thinking and I've had to cut Marauders... it's just not as good as it should be. That said, Hellspark is terrible against any deck with DRS, which is a lot of them. Thoughts on what can fit in the 2-cmc slot?
Note that here, Sedge Sliver is an MVP; I think that, unfortunately, he's a card that's been neglected far too long. He's a lord, with a bigger body than most, who ALSO gives regenerate... he's too good not to play (especially in light of the new mana-fixing available to us). The only question remaining is... can this function as a 4-color deck? I think that this build is superior to most UWG builds out there right now simply because of Sedge Sliver... he's our Reejerey and then some (he comes with a bigger body, which, especially because he has regenerate, is not irrelevant).
Of course, all of this means prioritizing having a swamp out at all times Sedge's out... the man-base may need some more tweeking, but from the limited testing that I've had a chance to get in today already it seems like this is a good starting point.
A note on Muscle Sliver; as pointed out above, our creatures just don't do enough and just plain aren't big enough to compete these days. Sedge is both bigger than either Sinew or Muscle and does multiple awesome things, assuming you have a Swamp or two on board. Having 8 bear lords was passable once, but no longer; when given the chance, it seems reasonable to trade out one of those 4x sets of bear lords for the Sedge's, and the fact of the matter was that Muscle, while the OG sliver 'lord,' represents the only Green in the main-deck. Eliminating him lets us substitute Red for Sedge without too many problems.
And for those nay-sayers who doubt the reliability of a 4-color mana-base, remember; Meathooks used to BE a 4-color deck back in it's heyday, back when it splashed Black for Hibernation Sliver; yes, back then damage also used the stack, making Hibernation Sliver amazing, but I still think that he has a place in a deck that's looking to cover it's dudes from spot (or mass) removal, or simply to chump block over and over (works great with Vial). And besides, we need black for Sedge in this build anyhow, why not take advantage of him?
Opponent PM'd with availabilities (or lack thereof) for the next couple days (out of town Fri/Sat), will msg again when I get my work schedule for next week if we can't work something out for Sunday night.
Also, not sure if the title for this thread can be updated or not but threw me for a loop for a sec.
That aside, I'm thinking of dropping the LD package altogether to focus on both speed and consistency (so include critical mass of 1 CMC cyclers, and drop SSG for consistency?).
Something like this:
4 Street Wraith
3 Architects of Will
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Desert Ceredon
2 Valley Rannet
3 Shriekmaw
3 Beast Within
4 Violent Outburst
3 Demonic Dread
3 Living End
Lands (19):
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
In testing, seems really smooth so far. Kept some land-cyclers in lieu of the last Architect and LD.
Of note, when built like this our Blackcleave Cliffs, Blood Crypts, and fetch lands can each cycle every creature in the deck. The Blooming Marsh can also cycle everything save Ceredon. All the fetches can grab Dryad Arbor, and have included a basic Swamp and Forest to combat Blood Moon (which Verdant Catacombs can search up; and the Forest can be grabbed by Rannet too if needed).
The land cyclers are in there to a) ensure we hit our third land and generally color-fix as needed, b) give us some more game against Blood Moon (though most of our stuff can cycle through it, save the three Architects and four Horrors), c) fetch Dryad Arbor to more consistently have a creature to target with Demonic Dread, and d) fill the graveyard.
Compared to all that, the 2-cost cycling on Archfiend seems underwhelming, possibly just win-more (though I could see including him over some Shriekmaws and/or the Wolf Run, perhaps?). That said, haven't had a lot of opportunity to play-test him yet. Passing the Bolt test, being able to cast for 5 CMC, and having evasion AND another relevant ability does seem great.
Yes, I am running Wolf Run as my 19th land; it's been a very good top-deck late game for me for years. Hold it in your hand until an opponent has no blockers up late game, then either cast Beast your own land or fetch Dryad Arbor EOT, drop Run on your turn, pump and swing out of nowhere for lethal. Yes, this could compete with Horror as a mana-sink late game, but Horror still requires you to have cards in hand to buff, whereas Wolf Run just needs the mana (yes, Run requires a bit more mana, but the added Trample is often great).
Lastly, yes, I am only running 10 combo pieces, but I feel that with so many more cheap cyclers we are more likely to see them. Only issue I could see would be needing to go off more than once in a game, but this list can be adjusted as needed, and I do feel that these new critters do help us ensure that we're more likely than ever to win off of a single resolved LE (and if not, the main-decked Shriekmaws and Wolf Run also help to push through stalled boards).
Also, with us running so many fetches to support Lavamancer, why has the black splash (for Bump In the Night, NOT Bob, as bob is too slow) not had much success? Do Badlands really make us that much weaker to Wasteland? I realize the dis-synergy with Price, but it seems negligible compared to the possible benefits.
That said, how's this for a 2-drop?
Dome-bolter 1r
Creature - Human Wizard
Haste
When ~ enters the battlefield, search your library for two red instant cards with CMC 1, put them into your hand and then shuffle your library. ~ deals 3 damage to you.
2/1
Spitfire Hatchling 1r
Creature - Dragon
Flying, Haste, Firebreathing
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it deal 3 damage either to one player or divided as you choose among one, two, or three target creatures.
0/1
Spite-lasher
Creature - Elemental
Trample, haste
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it deal 2 damage to target creature or player. A player dealt damage this way cannot gain life for the rest of the game.
At end of turn, sacrifice ~.
3/1
Or a 1-drop Merfolk that can sac to tax and/or grant hexproof to/ regenerate another creature.
I really wish that we had a true shroud or hexproof-granting Merfolk lord (Kira doesn't really do enough anymore as it's useless against Decay), or maybe a Merfolk like Cursecatcher that you could also sacrifice to give hexproof or regenerate to another creature until end of turn in addition to the tax ability... I'm still holding out hope that Dragon's Maze will give us SOMETHING interesting, but it's not likely.
Are there any creatures out there that I'm missing that might help meet either of those demands (granting regenerate and/or hexproof)?
On a side-note, You Make The Card 4 is here... so perhaps we can simply design one ourselves. Use hash-tag #ymtc on Twitter to discuss, voting begins here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/238
On a side-note, You Make The Card 4 is here... Let's finally make a playable Red 2-drop creature that can compete with Bob, Mystic, Goyf, and Tiago! Use hash-tag #ymtc on Twitter, voting begins here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/238
The deck needs this!
Confirmed!
This is the hash of the deck I uploaded (assuming this is the correct code?):
2pptlvcv
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
Spells
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mutavault
1 Swamp
Note that here, Sedge Sliver is an MVP; I think that, unfortunately, he's a card that's been neglected far too long. He's a lord, with a bigger body than most, who ALSO gives regenerate... he's too good not to play (especially in light of the new mana-fixing available to us). The only question remaining is... can this function as a 4-color deck? I think that this build is superior to most UWG builds out there right now simply because of Sedge Sliver... he's our Reejerey and then some (he comes with a bigger body, which, especially because he has regenerate, is not irrelevant).
Of course, all of this means prioritizing having a swamp out at all times Sedge's out... the man-base may need some more tweeking, but from the limited testing that I've had a chance to get in today already it seems like this is a good starting point.
A note on Muscle Sliver; as pointed out above, our creatures just don't do enough and just plain aren't big enough to compete these days. Sedge is both bigger than either Sinew or Muscle and does multiple awesome things, assuming you have a Swamp or two on board. Having 8 bear lords was passable once, but no longer; when given the chance, it seems reasonable to trade out one of those 4x sets of bear lords for the Sedge's, and the fact of the matter was that Muscle, while the OG sliver 'lord,' represents the only Green in the main-deck. Eliminating him lets us substitute Red for Sedge without too many problems.
And for those nay-sayers who doubt the reliability of a 4-color mana-base, remember; Meathooks used to BE a 4-color deck back in it's heyday, back when it splashed Black for Hibernation Sliver; yes, back then damage also used the stack, making Hibernation Sliver amazing, but I still think that he has a place in a deck that's looking to cover it's dudes from spot (or mass) removal, or simply to chump block over and over (works great with Vial). And besides, we need black for Sedge in this build anyhow, why not take advantage of him?
Also, not sure if the title for this thread can be updated or not but threw me for a loop for a sec.
Confirmed! GGz, & gl!