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    posted a message on Colorless Eldrazi Tron
    Quote from coinmagic45 »
    Quote from Lantern »
    I will remind everyone that this thread exists to better understanding, playing and streamlineing lists. That being said, the deck is about being colorless, and the advantages that provides the deck. Should you start adding colors and finding the deck is simply just a slightly different version of an existing deck (namely GX Tron) please move to that thread accordingly.


    Adding one green card that highly synergizes with colorless Eldrazi doesn't mean the deck is becoming GX Tron... The deck is still Colorless Eldrazi in much the same way that Mono Black or BW 8-Rack are still the same deck with slight tweaks.

    If it's really not allowed on the forum to discuss alternate, potentially beneficial card choices, then please let me know and I'll stop posting.
    I'll be clearer, its ok to talk about slight splashes. I don't think anyone will agrue against that. They might suggest that the loss of consistancy, or being blood moon or what ever might be worse then the slight gain of the splash... which is fine too. Our forums exist for that reason. But if people trend and just end up thinking "well this should just be tron" then they should be talking about that in that thread. It would be like... I dunno. deciding to add snapcaster to jund, then really pushing the green out to have more snap spells, they probably should just post in grixis at that point.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Colorless Eldrazi Tron
    I will remind everyone that this thread exists to better understanding, playing and streamlineing lists. That being said, the deck is about being colorless, and the advantages that provides the deck. Should you start adding colors and finding the deck is simply just a slightly different version of an existing deck (namely GX Tron) please move to that thread accordingly.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from Sennar10 »
    Ok thanks, now I can figured why 2x Gnaw Smile

    Maybe do you bring them also versus ad nauseam? I think that is a really hard matchup were we can just hope to race faster than them and maybe see 1-2 discard spell or keep our life total high with gnaw and use multiple times loam to fill our hand with lands to respond to Lightning Storm. How do you interpret this matchup?

    Finally what do you think about the matchup versus cheerios? I haven't test yet.


    Your average gain off a gnaw is around 18 life. Your max is likely about 28, that's keeping narcs in the grave and ignoring ghast triggers, and dumping your hand. The average damage off lightning storm is 35 damage. Youd need to cast 2 to make it work, and even then they have alternate win cons in lab manaic, and they also have 0 mana counters. Youre better off attacking them with the other stuff in your board. Discard, enchantment/artifact kill for their mana and combo pieces.

    Gnaw is an anti aggro card. It very rarely can win the combo games. (not theory crafted, but tested by me hard to find what times to bring in gnaw. Sometimes scapeshift, its boarderline. )
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    depending on if you go small or big, your out to kira for small is race and ghoring when vial is on 3, not burning dudes anymore unless you are sure no kira will happen. For big, bonfire of the damned or explosives deal with kira.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Can confirm. Little zoo match up 5050. Big zoo with removal 65 35 favoed
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Jeskai Harbinger
    Please keep the conversation on the cards and not each other. Please also report any posts that aren't about magic and about people, so I can act on them accordingly.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from ruckusmh »
    Hey guys top 16'd GP Van with Dredge, was mostly good. Collective Brutality was nice, I liked being able to kill scooze with it and rip an anger of the gods or something like that depending on the matchup. Memory's Journey literally never got sided in and not playing Darkblast in the 75 was a huge mistake. Still, was 11-2 going into round 14 and lost to Bant Eldrazi 1-2 after the deck just didn't function in games two and three.

    Pretty close to a top 8, felt relatively unlucky to lose game two in particular where his hand was not great by any stretch. Think dredge is fine, but wouldn't necessarily be looking to play it again in the near future as I'm really ambivalent about the newer versions ability to beat hate if people start actually playing it again. Death's Shadow Jund matchup is also a little sketchy, although the lower TBR count makes it probably passable.

    Losses were to Bant in 14, Abzan in 6, and Infect in 9. Any questions ask away, happy to see Dredge put up some #s this weekend!


    First off, thanks for coming by. I cant stress enough how much I love seeing people from GPs or Protours dropping in to share some info. Helps everyone and the archtype as a whole. Also, congrats! Thanks for pushing dredge forward!

    Now I'll ask a laundry list of questions if its cool. I just wanna make sure I and anyone who reads this can keep pushing dredge to the highest it can go (But not too much, I dont want another ban.)

    1. Devil or Haunted dead? The japanese opted for haunted for blocking, stalling, extra repeat bodies, and the discard. Did you feel like Devil pushed in enough damage he was always the better option than haunted? Are there times Haunted's discard and/or chump bodies would have served better? With all that info, which was likely the better card?

    2. Im of the opinion right now we are more like legacy dredge than ever. Really soft to sideboard hate, but when its cut, were great. Do you feel that this is the decks future right now?

    3. You are running 2 conflag, and 1 in the side. How often was that thing coming into the main? Would it have been better to run it main?

    4. Like above, brutality in the main. I'm generally against non grave stuffs in the main, but is it good enough that realistically its got too many uses NOT to run main rather than side? For example, I run lightning axe main when the meta is all creatures, and it just acts as another enabler like neonate or looting. Is the meta currently in that way that the discard/2 life/disfigure is just worth the main inclusion?

    5. As far as the darkblast not in the 75, I agree with you, but for everyone else, why exactly is that a point that sticks out for you in the deck?

    6. Just for spoilers comin' up, what exactly are you looking for in amonket to make the deck stronger? Go ahead and give us the dream cards on your short list. What would make you pick the deck up again.

    7. Looking at the japanese lists, what do you think of them going forward?

    Again, Thank you so much for running the archetype, and coming by to talk with us!
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Good report!

    Yeah. It seems like dredge is on a balancing act. Its good, but might not be good enough. I think anything like a scrapheap scrounger that is slightly more pushed will put us back into solid tier 1. We are CLEARLY good enough to put 3 top results with grave hate getting light. So basically affinity, but slightly worse RNG it seems.

    When AMONKHET comes out I will be constantly feeling like this:
    <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yzhCMADl_nY&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/yzhCMADl_nY&quot; width="425" height="350" movie="http://www.youtube.com/v/yzhCMADl_nY&quot; wmode="transparent"/>
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on GP Vancouver, GP Brisbane, and SCG Baltimore Modern discussion!
    If only if only you could interact with it and discard spells. Maybe like a control deck would. Slant

    Seriously, if only.
    Posted in: Modern
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Weird it didnt post what I wrote.

    Anyway. I agree pharaoh is one of the best answers for the deaths shadow we got. Further more, the difference here is a minor one, but it has a big impact. Loam is the worst dredger, but better spell than thug is. You rarely want to cast thug. Loam, closer to the end of the game, gets casted alot, sometimes you actually hold one so you can turn 6 cast, cast, then conflag for 10.

    Other times you dredge loam for lands on turn 2 so you can flash back looting turn 3, even with a thug in the grave.


    I can see why he likes it better.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    If you want to talk about bans go to the meta thread. Mentioning a likely ban is fine for purposes of finance, but not specific details to talk about it leading to a larger debate.
    Posted in: Modern
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    posted a message on Dredge
    I think I'll be using his exact list and decide about the -1 thug, 4 loams and 21 lands for my self. His sideboard is probably perfect, however. Looks like we were all right about going heavy on discard lately/
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge


    With several Modern Pro Tour Top 8's to his name, Lee Shi Tian is no stranger to figuring out this format, but where he went with it this time I don't think anyone expected.

    "I figured with Golgari Grave-Troll banned, people wouldn't sideboard against Dredge anymore," Lee explained, "and it turned out that it's still very good, even without Grave-Troll."

    Lee entered the Top 8 in first place this weekend, and Takahashi wasn't far behind in fourth place. The pair faced off in the Semifinals and Takahashi emerged victorious to advance to the Finals, where he succumbed to Oliver Oks' Lantern Control deck, which did include at least some sideboard cards against Dredge.

    http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpbri17/grand-prix-brisbane-finals-2017-02-19
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Good job!
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!
    We're going to lock this thread down for a little bit. I want everyone to take a breath and calm down. Maybe reread the rules again. If any post following this is close to spam (being not about modern, or just no content), flaming other users, or baiting or trolling other users you will be infracted.
    Posted in: Modern
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    posted a message on Abzan Company
    Alright, theres been enough budget talk in this thread. This thread is about playing magic, not buying cards. Yes some cards are better than others, and their cost is higher. We have a budget sub. Please use that.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Yeah, 2 dredge top 8ed, 1 was in the top 2. So were still doing good. I heard that meta was not prepped for grave hate, so it was a bit soft. that also explains why living end did well. I still think the haunted dead over devil is probably "margenally right depending on the meta." 21 probaly is also margonally right. I know Ive been fustrated with lands. And that ties into loams as well I'm sure. Loam diff IS the better spell than thug, though thug is the better dredger.

    For what its worth, unless we see dredge destroy this gp streaming now, as said before. were like affinity. Good when were good, bad when were bad, which is a GOOD spot for us.

    Unless they break something in the next set.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Hey, Im still proud of you man. You did great, and still gave dredge representation!
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on GP Vancouver, GP Brisbane, and SCG Baltimore Modern discussion!
    Well, I know from our forums we got a dredge and a midrange zoo in
    Posted in: Modern
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    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Updated primer with some odds and ends I missed over the years and new cards. Hidden hearbalists added to the burning tree section, rallier added in its own section, added to landfall zoo decklist, narnam added to the list of 1 drop useable beaters and gruul zoo decklist, fatal push added to removal section, roast and natural state added to sideboard stuff.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    I think your best bet is a claim, a brutality and a bog in that order. Grave decks have gone dow. I useage (us) sucide zoo isnt all in anymore and infect has died down too so bruality is less useful. Claim does the same thing seize does, counter hate
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    According to Modern nexus, which is a good read, check it out, we are still. Again, barely. But the power of the deck is still clearly there. Our useage is diff down. probably banphobia. Wait until we get another grave tool. I'm sure well be right back on top.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from Bo5dey »
    If you're facing off against Blood Moon frequently, run the basic Forest.
    aggro too
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Someone whos better at math than me (I openly admit to not knowing how to do this.) Whats the best land count for a turn 1 black or red or green source? Its some amount of fetches, with some amount of fast lands, right?
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    I dont think anyones running push at all.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Extraction snap is already stuff exists in sideboards, and we still lose to good sideboard hate. angers and extraction snap are the same as theyve been. I dont think twins exists changes that. I win combo is a problem for sure, but it ironically fits under the same hate Id board in vs them, thoughtseize and naturalize effects.

    Twin actually has problems with rush aggro, so I dont think it would be all that bad. As a deck, we can crush them so long as they dont have the win combo.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Modern Sub Forum Updates (Last Update: 2/14/17) <3
    • Azban and RG Valakut decks promoted to tier 1
    • Elves, Azban Company, Death and taxes, Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator, Amulet titan, W/U Control and Midrange Promoted to tier 2
    • Jeskai Control Moved to tier 3
    Posted in: Modern
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    posted a message on RG Titan Scapeshift
    So modern nexus wasnt exactly clear, since they are lumping breach and shift togather now on their rankings, but the combined results of these two make a tier 1 stats, so thats where were at right now
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on RG Breach
    So modern nexus wasnt exactly clear, since they are lumping breach and shift togather now on their rankings, but the combined results of these two make a tier 1 stats, so thats where were at right now
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Update: Wooooo. We barely squeaked by to stay tier 1 boys. Hope we stay only barely tier 1.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    You need to race them, but conservatively. Depending on their board they will run 4 relics, 4 angers, 2 cage. Its allota hate. But seize will do work, so will 1 cmc naturalize effects. I'm pretty immune to blood moon thanks to the basic forest, and I think a smart skred play sides moon out against us.

    Realistically I like seize here because I can scope their hand. If they didnt keep a grave hate hand, or you snag out their 1 peice of hate, you can turn full burners on to see if you can simply out race them. otherwise you have to do like I did. Pull out 1 ghast, amalgam, get them to anger, repeat, try to get them in a smallish conflag range. conflag.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!
    For what its worth, my LSG, modern fired, draft barely fired, and Standard didnt, like at all. They've been struggling to get standard to fire. But the kids who used to play standard, are all going outta their way to build modern decks. And like... multiple. My local store isnt big, but assume thats whats happening in all of Atlanta right now. Even at the random bar I went to tonight, people where playing modern and EDH.

    No clue why people just did it at a bar... but they were doin' it kitchen table, but still modern legality when I asked.

    So the FMN moderns are the only regular firing format, and at casual they were playing modern. I dont think Maro's wrong. People want to, and still are playing modern, regardless of the standard environment.
    Posted in: Modern
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    posted a message on Are we really so blind when it comes to bolt?
    The only time I ran a red aggro deck that I didnt "build" like I wanted bolt was Shamanism. I used atarka's command though. And I still wanted bolts, but the deck rather a bolt on legs, since it wants a creature every turn.

    Pretty much everything else had bolt. Even my madness deck just wanted bolts in the end. Dredge uses lightning axe in the board instead of bolt.
    Posted in: Modern
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Had a terrible fmn. But, I suppose I should still write it out a bit, since loses learn about the deck too.

    Round 1 vs Azban

    Game 1 I win through normal beats. My threats simply out raced him.

    In 2 seize, 2 axe 1 decay, out 2 neonate, 1 ghast, 2 darkblast

    Game was a bit longer, but conflag on voice tokens, was easy with mana dorks, so it was just more of a tempo game.

    2-0

    Round 2 vs Jund
    Heres where it went down hill. I lost game 1 from being mana flooded. We talked, he still felt on the back end, and if I had 2 more turns it woulda been a win for me. I literally drew around 12 lands. I had two looting, 2 neonate, and it just never drew a single dredge.

    Game 2, I had to battle through an ooze which I discarded, and he k commanded back, and an anger. I didnt quite get there. I lost the game because I got greedy and used my decay on a goyf early, had I left that for the return of ooze and just narced blocked Id have pulled through.

    0-2

    Scred Red
    Snow covered mountain. GG. God this match feels like burn playing against soul sisters. What is it 90% un favored? bla. I got turn 1 reliced, which I forced him to pop by holding my looting into turn 2, so I could loot away a ghast and amalgam and put a land out. I then proceeded to bait and minimize my losses against another relic and 2 angers, and be mooned out of loam. I managed to even get him to 5... 5! And I'm sitting here after my last ghast got graved going "I have a devil... thats 4 damage... I'm out of recursion, out of gas. No narcs left, no amaglams left. I have only one ghast in the yard, and I used my 2 dakmors. I litterally need to top deck a land by natural draw. So I draw, and its an imp. GG.

    In: 2 grudge, 2 nature's claim, 3 sieze, 1 decay.

    Overboard? Yeah. But I needed outs. And for what its worth, he doesnt hit grave hate. Crazy, but he gets the beats curve instead. But I never get my 3rd land, and I just cant do it. GG.

    At this point I go into round 4 trying not to tilt.

    0-2

    Round 4 vs... eh? Junk?
    It was a really mixed up jamble of a deck. But he resolved an early Kambal, Consul of Allocation, as I'm trying to find dredge power, so I'm screwed. It was like a bad domain zoo, but still had a clock. Kambal did something like 8 damage on his own, so I stumpled. Felt pretty bad.

    Round 2: board in 2 axe, 2 brutality, 1 gnaw, 1 decay.

    I bait out a turn 1 relic, but cant shimmy past a turn 2 ooze. I tried, and almost did it. I made a key mistake using my brutality way too early. I could have killed off the turn 2 ooze if I waited, I fail to hit the conflag and its over. I ended up going all in at one point, because his team was getting bigger, making a hope he makes a mistake, but he doesnt. damn.

    0-2.

    1-4 Overall:
    Felt aweful. Had to leave. Its not even that I played bad or got hit with hate. I just drew like crap the entire event. It happens I suppose. Shoulda been more aggressive will mulls. That jund match is like the first time I ever lost to jund, and the skred is an auto lose. I played some sample games online after, and won 3 straight matches. Just bad draws, deck fell apart. I dont think its the decks fault, just hit hard with verance today.


    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    The issue with that is I also want to be able to hit Oozes, combo creatures, ect. Thoughtsieze is a catch-all answer.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    I'll be trying out this in a few hours. I've seen alot of onliners cut to 19 lands, since you wanna max out at 3 tops nowadays without troll



    I'm up to 5 discard in the board as well, since it seems like thats our best overall answer with these combo and ramp decks taking up the meta. added in a ghost quarter in the side per ya'lls suggestion. I don't think it will come into play at my local, I have one tron player... but I suppose it is 1 out of 13 chance, since were small. I've gone down in bogs. I seem to be only siding one in now a days, and will only get punished if I hit that one other dredge deck that shows up sometimes. The forest has saved my ass alot vs aggro, so I cut a basic mountain, something I dont love, but will do to test the 19 lands. As long as I can get 2 lands per game I should be good to go.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Raphael Levy's Loam Pox
    [deck] 5 Islands[/deck]

    When making decks please use the deck tags. you can see an example written above.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    E1 is a wacky card. In legacy small zoo its a god damn house. But in legacy small zoo you have access to more 3/xs which makes it way better

    Also small zoo is bad in legacy anyways because terminace, so its a null point.

    As Ive said before, the deck really is just one 1 cmc 3/x and a better fleeseman lion to replace goyf from being top deck worthy. With those 2 cards e1 is more than playbe, and you can bring baby gideon in the deck too.

    E1 is a good card, though I can feel the fustration with it. Problem is any card you put un is worse than him.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Ive dipped down to 19 lands and 2 mana is just too much for hate. Claim or state are fine. You really should be able to answer and dredge back to back or answer on the draw.

    Right now Im on 3 seize and 2 brutalities as my main answer. Tron eldrazi and combo are previelent enough to need that. It feels right. 2 axe, 2 claim and 1 decay to back it up.

    As was said. We fold to grave hate sometimes. Its not worth over flexing the board to lose. Seize and decay hit 90% of the hate we worry about, claim and axe to me suppliment those plans
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] UR Storm
    Well, first off. While who created the deck isnt spam, because it still has to do with the deck... It diffidently derails the thread. But since everyones so stuck on it:

    I used to hold modern cockatrice tournaments on this sub because back then modern wasnt all that popular. I remember in 2012, a user named "poopingmypants" ran a gifts version of storm. Looking back on it, heres a link:

    http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/224318-variant-gifts-storm?comment=4

    Using my mod like powers, as far as I can tell this is the EARLIEST the words "gifts" and "storm" were said in the same post together. A guy named James Zornes was the first to use that tech. Feb, 2012 Grand Prix Detroit, top 16.

    (Flash forward to 2016, he used an updated version of the deck to top 8 the same gp location in 2016: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/384596#online.)

    In 2012, February, he couldn't use a mana reducer because Goblin Electromancer wasnt printed until October. The first post I can find on this forum that also uses a "mana reducer" with gifts in storm is by a user named SPC, who won with a storm gifts mana reducer list in my cocktrice tournaments one month. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/modern-archives-proven/511602-ur-storm-5-2013-7-2014?comment=25

    Lastly I found this: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/224335-goblin-electromancer?comment=2 Good ol' Lectrys who loves trying out "weird cute stuff" called it first, right when the card was spoiled. August, 2012.

    Here we go, even further back. Blippy was the first guy to really keep track of meta stuff in modern, back when it was the wild wild west. heres one of his articles: http://www.mtgoacademy.com/overdriven-54/
    Storm, 2013, gifts, electromancer, pre seething song ban, 4-0ing a modern daily.

    Credit where credits due, Lord Hazanko has been vouching for gifts version for a very long time. I think searching back on it, since he started his account in mtgsalvation, thats 5/12/13 But looking at dates, the MTGO 4-0 finish was 2/4/13, 4 months prior to that, Lectrys called the synergy 10 months prior, and the first gifts storm list that won a bigger event was a year prior.

    While it might not seem like it, I am an OLLLLLLDDDDD mod here, and I have seen the birth of modern, and remember when cute tech turned into real, and when real tech was either banned, or got worse.

    I think that settles it. Now, please move back on to the deck and not each other.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Thalia is the only reason you can play a small zoo in legacy. The card is absurd. I even have it in my personal "what woukd .ake zoo tier 1 agaib" list

    It hinders litterally everything that hirts zoo, wipes, removal, combo, all while being agressive.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Most common token creature in the format?
    Common in terms of sees most representation in cards? Probably spirit. Lingering Souls is a big reason for that, but then their is an entire deck for it too. If were talkin' mass amounts commonly played, its likely elemental tokens ala young pyro.

    If we wanna talk most tokens seen on one board state at any time on average, its probably goblin tokens from storm.
    Posted in: Modern
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Taking out 2 narcs is really though. I dont think id ever do it. It messes with the engine. Ive cut 1 amalgam and a blood ghast before and that was pushing

    Congrats on everyone with their wins! Were proving the deck is still real!

    As far as not having thugs, no you need it. Its job is dredge 4. You cant replace that.

    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from Mastermind250 »
    The sideboarding guide on the primer is awesome! Question though, since it says collective brutality is a good swap for mom hug, if I'm boarding in 2 CB would I board out 2 CR, or 1 CR and something else? Same question for if I'm boarding in 2 Thoughtseize and 1/2 natural state, do I take out 2 narcomeobas or try to spread out?


    I usually board out 2 mom hug. If its against a deck that I need to interact with (infect, old zoo, ect.) then I am not racing. If its using snap extraction, its got counters to worry about and mom hug is bad too.

    2 mom hug.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from Mompelomp »
    Quote from Heenock »
    @Mompelomp : vs Kiki-Chord you mentioning Wall of Hope but it non legal modern card.


    @Heenock: You are very correct, I meant to say Wall of Omens. Smile

    Lantern, the new Primer looks and reads amazing, you did a fantastic job!
    A couple of nitpick points:
    The "Team Pump Package" cards are not hyperlinked annotated, they don't show up when you move the mouse over them.
    Under "Single Flex Cards" Shriekhorn is written Shriek Horn, so it does not pop up.
    Under Sideboard for Step 1, Graffdigger's Cage is written as Graffdiggers Cage, so it does not pop up.
    Those are very minor points though. I hardly think I've seen a primer with this good layout and abundance of information.


    and done. Thanks for those
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from Bo5dey »
    The new primer is sweet! Really digging the content's organization and use of graphics to spice it up.

    The yellow text in the sideboarding section is a little hard to read without highlighting, but that's my only - very minor - gripe. The time and effort is hugely appreciated and I know it will be immensely helpful for any new players who want to dredge. It's a comprehensive guide but you'd done a great job of breaking up the information into digestible chunks. Thank you!

    Yeah... I thought that might be the case. Let me see if orange is better and different enough to red its still usable.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from Ashockfan »
    Quote from Lantern »
    Well I finished the primer... finally. Only took around 70 hours and 101 Edits on my end. haha.


    Anywho, the sideboard part, which was the last and most tricky part is done. I wont be making any major changes to it, least for a while, but you can all tell me if theres anything that should or shouldnt be there. Its got a literally metric crap ton of information. The wall of text might be scary, but it should be enough that literally anyone reading it, should know the ins and outs of the deck pretty well, and intermediates can take this info with them when they play and test and become advanced pilots.

    Do me a favor ya'll and look it over. Then if its good, give it a like so I can track the approval rating of it. Also so I can validate the way too many hours I spent on it.

    Awesome! the Primer is fantastic - there's so much great info there. Small nitpicks, you spelled Lotleth Troll "Lotloth" and Smallpox "Small Pox" so the card image doesn't show up :p

    Also, I'd argue that Surgical is a 100% a top impact hate card. Just hitting amalgams makes it significantly more difficult to win, and getting ghast + malg makes it nearly impossible to win if they have literally anything going on.

    It does, your right, and origonally I put it as a 5.0 card, but the more I thought about it the more I realized it was 5.0 with snapcaster. Some decks however, just use that and not snap. Sometimes you can make them discard the snap and it's only a half cage. So on the card alone, I put it at 4.0. 5.0 is for when you just get completely wrecked. Stuff like crypt incursion is just gg the minute its cast. Extraction is still fightable.

    Thanks for finding those minor edits. Its hard to keep track of all of em when the primers so big. I forgot a few graf rather than graff too.

    Quote from Hayati2013 »
    Awesome work pal, keep it up! Looks just great!
    Quote from Lojek »
    Hey guys,
    I usually just look here, to keep me update (as a dredge player), but i log in just to thank you all, especially you, Lantern (amazing primer).
    Thank guys ! Keep it up !


    Thanks yall, means a lot.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
  • 5

    posted a message on Dredge
    Well I finished the primer... finally. Only took around 70 hours and 101 Edits on my end. haha.


    Anywho, the sideboard part, which was the last and most tricky part is done. I wont be making any major changes to it, least for a while, but you can all tell me if theres anything that should or shouldnt be there. Its got a literally metric crap ton of information. The wall of text might be scary, but it should be enough that literally anyone reading it, should know the ins and outs of the deck pretty well, and intermediates can take this info with them when they play and test and become advanced pilots.

    Do me a favor ya'll and look it over. Then if its good, give it a like so I can track the approval rating of it. Also so I can validate the way too many hours I spent on it.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from Arthy-J »
    Is there a consensus on Natural State VS Nature's Claim in the sideboard? What jumps out to me is that Claim can hit Leylines and Night of Soul'a Betrayal. But since people are generally dialing back on hate I'd expect to see Leyline of the Void a lot less often, as the more primary forms of hate require way less commitment. Leyline seems to only come around in extreme circumstances where people feel they absolutely *need* 3-6 grave hate slots to begin with – in any other circumstances, Leylines seem to take up too much valuable sideboard space.

    I've seen way more of Grafdigger's Cage and Scavenging Ooze, which makes me more keen on Natural State, Lightning Axe and Thoughtseize than Nature's Claim and Collective Brutality.

    Edit to avoid a double post: Is Ground Seal just way too cute to see any real sideboard play? I dig how it lets us dredge upon entering, but it seems narrow compared to the rest of our options, and it turns off Loam. Just making sure writing off the card isn't a mistake on my part because I could see it being useful against Jund and Abzan Coco, as they don't have much in the way of good non-targeting hate.

    Were pretty tight on sideboard slots since the banning, but I think thats why claim gets the nod. Right now, unless you are playing 5 colors, claim is the best, followed by state. If we ever take 5 colors, which I think we are close to but not there yet, fragmentize is a leading reason.

    What I'm getting at is you need to be able to hit any enchantment or artifact right now. Leylines are a big reason, sure, but there are a couple other. Most are 4 cmc with the execution of like wurmcoil, which is why fragmentize is actually the bees knees. Instant speed has very little to do with it. The 4 life DOES matter more than people realize, because sometimes against combo, that bought turn is all they need to win the game. Natture's claim is best used in control, ramp and combo. State is best used in midrange, aggro and tempo. We happen to be combo aggro, so it puts us in a weird spot.

    As far as ground seal goes? That tech was dead when Relic was printed. I was around then, and watched how fast that thing invalidated ground seal, as the go to hate was faerie macabre. Grave hate has gotten a lot worse for us since alara.



    Quote from Mompelomp »
    Went 3-0 at a 10-person Modern event on Tuesday, same list 2 weeks in a row:



    Match 1 vs Tron
    The guy was pretty new to Modern and was borrowing the deck. Game 1 he has natural turn 3 Tron, and plays 2 Spellskite and an Oblivion Stone. I punch through and bring back Ghasts & Amalgams after he cracks Stone, and he scoops.
    Sideboard: Out 1 Darkblast, 1 Cathartic Reunion. In 2 Ancient Grudge.
    Second game he sets up for turn 3 Tron with a turn 2 Expedition Map, but I have Ancient Grudge for it. This leaves him stuck on 2 lands for the rest of the game, and I beat him down.
    2-0, 1-0 in matches.

    Match 2 vs 4-Colour Bird Brain
    Basically an Esper Gfts Ungiven deck splashing green with Brain in a Jar and Beck // Call. Game 1 I have a really slow hand, but his is not very fast either. He is stuck with Unburial Rites in hand, and cannot find the 5h land to reanimate Elesh Norn, grand cenobite. He uses Lingering Souls to buy time, but my engine eventually picks up and I'm able to finish him of.
    Sideboard: Out 1 Darkblast, 2 Cathartic Reunion, 1 Conflagrate. In 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Collective Brutality.
    Game 2 is pretty straight forward. I get my engine running from the start. He uses Lingering Souls and Damnation to buy time, but it is not enough.
    2-0, 2-0 in matches.

    Match 3 vs Kiki-Chord
    Game 1 goes long. A super-grindy affair where he plays Chord of calling for Scavenging Ooze and starts to eat Conflagrates, Scourge Devil and Amalgams. In the end I'm down to 6-7 cards in library against his 10 life, Ooze and one open mana. I need one more Bloodghast to have a lethal attack in case he has a removal spell, and debate how deep I should dredge. I end up going 3 cards deep, and flip the last Bloodghast, giving me exactly lethal as he reveals the Path to Exile. Close call!
    Sideboard: Out 1 Life from the Loam, 1 Cathartic Reunion, 2 Insolent Neonate In 2 Lightning Axe, 2 Collective Brutality
    Game 2 is also very grindy. He staves of early attacks with Wall of Hope and Wall of Roots, and I use Conflagrate to clean up. Conflagrate is the real MVP in the match, making his blocks bad and forcing him on the back foot. He resolves a Restoration Angel, and I sit back on a Lightning Axe, waiting for Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. He cannot block my attackers with his angel, since he needs the combo to win, and I can easily finish it of with Conflagrate if he blocks. At one point I Conflagrate all his creatures except the Angel, and realise a second to late that I've discarded too low, and the only card in my hand is Lightning Axe. He is on 4 lands with 2 red sources, and I cannot interact with his combo this turn. Punt! He untaps and plays a Horizon Canopy, no Kiki-Jiki. Sometimes you get lucky. For the rest of the game I hold up Axe, with an extra card, and eventually grind him down.
    2-0, 3-0 in matches.

    The grindy games with the deck are amazing. Usually you have the solution in front of you, and you have to find the right line of play to win. It really feels like solving a complex puzzle. I've been liking Abrupt Decay in the board a lot, and not Nature's Claim very much. It may be because of my meta, which has a lot of control decks (especially since Fatal Push) and Jund, Decay is great. Bascially no one runs Leyline of the Void, so Decay hits all the permanent hate I expect to see. The only thing is that some people play Worship, which could be an issue. Getting Bant Eldrazi on a clear board with only Conflagrate could be tough.

    Another nifty trick we can pull out since Golgari Thug joined the deck: When playing Tron, if they resolve an Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger and attack, we'll usually be on an empty library after one attack trigger. However, if we cast a Thug to block and have another one in our graveyard, we can use its trigger to put another Thug on top of our library, which we draw and cast next turn and loop the two. This can prevent us from milling out. Not likely to be relevant in many games, but it has come up for me in playtesting and actually won me some close games. Something to be aware of.


    Yeah, we have more or less the same list. I've been trending away from haunted dead. Infect is much less played, so my need for it is reduced a ton. If I die to eldrazi, haunted dead wasnt doing anything anyways. I actually used the thug tech the other day to win the game. Combo guy milled me down to nothing with thoughtscour of all things and I had him at 1 life. So I kept thugging, and forcing him to block with his eletrolizer, since I took out the rest of his win cons, leaving him with a bunch of rituals and peek effects and nothing to do with it. Any who I did that for about 20 turns until I won and milled him out.

    I think one of the problems us dredge players see, myself included, is our little slice of the meta. When we play a ton of tron, we wonder why we have a 1 of decay in the board, then we play a ton of jund and where like "Oh yeah, thats why." We either have to cut the slots our local meta doesnt seem to use, or leave us board in case. I usually do broad because I play online alot too.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Right. But landfall will take the damage for its "combo" and deal 6 damage. Domain will take the damage, cast a geist or flames and deal 12.

    I dont think thats a defense. If landfall takes damage it takes damage. The difference is one has speed and one has relislancey. They still take damage frim lands and are equally bad vs aggro
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Sorry. Musta got buried. The reason why I run 3 is because its job was to end the game or be removal. With push being a mana cheaper, it can let me do more attacking while also casting more creatures. Tarmogoyf and push on turn 2.

    Basically I feel 3 is enough to see one and close out the game with snap, but not often enough to have them strained in my hand.

    As far as painful mana? Yeah totally. Its always a strain. But alot of people have been talking about increasing fetches to 14... thats just as painful.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Quote from w7west »
    Quote from brogatsby »
    I've been running tribal zoo to some moderate success lately. I've been working on a more grim flayer oriented version as I like the feeling of a fast jund deck. The link to my list is below and I am working on a primer of sorts in the description on tappedout. I started with a list from a few pages back on this forum in conjunction with Caleb Durward's list from a Channel Fireball video series a while back and tuned it with a friend who'd been playing the noble/geist version for a while. I really think the deck can go places with a bit of refinement and a bit more experience with the deck by the pilot. Any thoughts are appreciated especially if you're playing some tribal zoo variant as well.

    Link to list with card choice explanation and primer


    I have some feedback and criticism to share with you. Tribal zoo is secretly one of the most powerful midrange decks but I don't agree with where you have taken it.

    1. Geist!
    Casting geist on turn two is one of the best things you can do in modern. You get to outrace the linear decks and it's one of the most difficult threats for other midrange decks to beat. Geist is, in my opinion, the #1 reason to play tribal zoo, and the deck could probably be renamed tribal geist.

    2. K command, thoughtseize, inquisition.
    Ok these are all good cards but they are not contributing to the hyper aggressive strategy. We can goldfish faster than most linear decks so discard effects are not needed, you just need to get in once or twice with a creature and then end the game with burn. Two for one effects, while nice, are also not needed. We gain a form of card advantage just by having the best cards at each slot on the curve.

    3. Grim flayer.
    Oh boy so I know a lot of people like this card. There was even a pro brewing this card in tribal zoo somewhat recently... and it makes me really sad to see. Here is a 2/2 that wants black mana on turn two. Most of the time that's all he will ever be. Later in the game he has the potential to be a 4/4. I think about another two drop with late game potential: snapcaster mage. If grim flayer is a 4/4 then snapcaster is a 2/1 tribal flames.

    4. Lingering souls.
    Same story as grim flayer. Souls does nothing to help you goldfish turn 3/4. We already have a three drop that dodges spot removal but hits three times harder (geist :)).

    5. Fatal push/abrupt decay.
    Path is better when we need a non burn removal spell. It hits tasigurs, anglers, wurmcoils, titans, eldrazi, etc. The extra land is a small price to cleanly answer things that we can't swing geists and rhinos into.

    This is all just how I personally evaluate what cards to put in my tribal zoo deck.



    For what its worth, while everyone was dieing over landfall zoo, I posted success with tribal zoo and was promptly ignored completely:
    Quote from Lantern »


    Did a Modern monday with this. Felt like brewing a zoo list togather again and wanted to go domain since I got a hold of push and we were allowed to use em. Mostly made up of cards I wanted to play with, but theres actually a loose strat that went into the card numbers. The mana is correct, I've done enough domain mana bases in my life to know how to make one. Openers should fetch T1: Stomping ground, T2: Goddess shrine T3: What ever is left with blue.

    Snap was likely to be dumb with this spell suite. Its literally the best things you can cast... ever. Same with the creatures. Narnam Renegade and Renegade Rallier are ok cards, but Geist, Knight, goyf, and rhino are all in their own league. Grim Flayer is a 1 of, and thats just to make sure my 2 drops were well rounded. He has odd utlity too, which is later game draw filter, getting me end game reach or spells, taking out excess land for knight, and keeping my geists solo as well as feeding snapcasters.

    Sideboard could probably use an odd amount of Denials. But I was more worried about eldrazi killing me so the discard went instead.

    Round 1 Vs GR Eldrazi
    I went turn 1 dork, turn 2 goyf and nacatl. then turn 3 geist nacatl. I had him down to 1, but made a mistake early on in not playing flames early for 4 damage (Because I'm full of greed and stupid. Its been a while guys.) and that cost me the game. Had I drawn a bolt, rhino, flames, or snap (12 cards mind you.) Id have won, and Id have won if I didnt pass the turn then be like "wait that was dumb." So this SHOULD have been a win.

    Sided in 2 aven mancers because I assumed wrong. No fetches or stuff. Sided out 2 bolts, because they dont hit enough.

    Game 2, Same as above, just also their was a rhino. Ran him way over.

    Sided out the avens, and another bolt for 3 discard. I forgot thats the whole reason I ran the discard in the side.

    Opened a hand that let me turn 1 noble turn 2 goyf and discard. Saw his hand lacked sol lands, so I took a risk and snagged his reshaper instead, as it was the only thing he could cast. Went to pound town with goyf, dropping geist again, followed by a rhino. He eventually got to 5 mana for his threats, but goyf and team did enough damage that he was tribal flames range.

    2-1/ 1-0

    Round 2 Esper Control
    Game 1 I saw the delta and knew I was in push land. Bring it on baby, I have a geist in my opener. So I play out nacatl, then goyf, and force him to kill my goyf on turn 3, opening him for geist, and... yeah. No chance to get back. That deck is super interactive, and takes way less damage then it used to with their new lands and push, but remands still suck, and my threats are ALL MUST KILL so his 1 or 2 removal spells will lose if they cant hit my 3rd or 4th dude.

    Sided out 3 path and two push for 2 aven and 3 discard. It was clear he wasnt doing a creature based deck, and if he cast something like a mentor or what ever, I was going to die to control anyways. The discard would be a way to open up windows for me and the aven is just nasty against control.

    Game 2 I opened a lack luster hand with far too many lands, but it had noble and 2 goyfs, so I kept because I figured, eh, push on my mana dork, turn 2/3 goyfs are still fine. No push, just control magic, but my goyfs... at 2 damage a turn mind you, still were doing enough, and I had tribal flames in hand. So I waited, casting something here and there which would get hit with a path or push, and I played a tempo game, eventually having him at 9 and me with flames and rhino in my hand. I drew a snap, and went for rhino, got remanded twice, brought him to 5, passed, he wiped the board, leaving up 4 mana, I rhinoed, mana leak, flames, snared, snap flames and won.

    2-0/ 2-0

    8 Rack
    Making a long story short, a lot of discard and removal happened, but I stuck 1 Knight, 7/7, then 2. So he was dead.

    Sided in 1 decay, and out 1 push. I does the same thing to pack rat but i get racks too.

    I know this matchup, and its actually a really easy one. They are really bad vs us... even with push. Its just about sticking a threat. And they overload on removal game 2, so I got to worry a lot less about discard. So I got pushed a few times, but he doesnt take anything from my hand. Which is bad news for him. I get to stick two 5/5 knights, a 3/3 nacatl, and a snap in hand and bolt in yard. At 15 thats leathal baby.
    2-0/ 3-0

    Round 4 vs Tron
    Turn 1 pushed on my mana dork, turn 2 chalice, turn 3 tron. Yeah. I concede early to hide my cards from thought-knot

    Side in 3 discard, 1 decay, out all bolts.

    Game 2 I faced down 2 relics on my 2 goyf hand. Greattttt... Well. I still play to my outs, holding fetchs uncracked to maybe get in some damage. I draw a crap ton of rhinos, and eventually can go all in with an alpha strike, cracking fetches, and pathing a batterskull germ token, to make my goyfs actually useful. I manage to slide him down to 8 with it, then cast a 3rd rhino, which should insure leathal even through the batterskull life link.

    Then he casts all is dust.


    Sigh.

    0-2/ 3-1

    Round 5 vs Infect
    Played really cat and mouse the first few rounds since I opened a slow but removal heavy hand. I barely lost due to a topped leathal pump.

    Game 2 I sided in decay and aven, explosion, and bonfire, siding out the other 3 drops for it. He must have took a really slow hand with Wild Defiance. I was swinging in with 5/5 nacatls, then dropped a aven when he went all in and blocked, then killed him on the back swing.

    Game 3, I put out a few beaters, while bolting one of his threats and explosives his second, dancing around the hexproof. It opened up enough time for me to just swing and win. Rhinnnoooooossss

    2-1/ 4-1

    Bonus game! Vs Jund
    Turn 1 Hierarch, turn 2 geist, turn 3 swing, double flames for lethal. Breakin' the turn 4 rule like a champ.

    Overall
    4-1 is pretty good for something I brewed up last second ehhhhhh? The deck is powerful, snaps are great at a 2 of, and 3 flames is correct if you have push, since one of flames good at killing dudes and facing. But with push the need for killing dudes is less. Plus both play great with snap, but you have to use em first, so snap is best at 2 of.

    Sometimes the deck felt like it needed a bird, or grim should be cut or boosted in numbers, I think thats up in the air. Sometimes push felt like it should be 3 of and path 2 of, but It might mess with the colors a bit too much. Side was wack a noodle, but meh, always is the first time around.

    Never-the-less, the deck plays like an aggressive jund deck and feels more powerful than company or walker zoos. I never felt like I was losing damage by not doing bushwacker, because I was always threathening leathal, even with disruption, and I never felt like I wasnt doing something big, because I always was.



    I've still been getting results with this, but havent been posting it because no one really cared the first time around. To your points: Yes, grim isnt amazing in the deck, but he does some work. Hes not better than snap, but he's better when you already have snap. So a 1-2 of. Discard is meant to be in the board for zoo, you want aggression, not interaction, but you do want it in the board. And Push is much much better in aggressive decks than not. You can enable it almost always, and when you cant, it doesnt matter, because it costs one mana letting you put down threats early game while using it non revolted. Are there times path is better? Yep. But you dont want to path a mana dork or tarmo. you want to push them.

    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 1

    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from Chilli_Axe »
    Went 3-1 at modern weekly tonight with this list:



    Matchups were:

    Affinity 0-2: With the GGT ban this is definitely one matchup we lost the edge we used to have in imo. G1 I mulliganed down to 5 and kept a fine hand with thug, looting and lands, but failed to dredge deep enough to apply any pressure so I was overrun in typical Affinity fashion.
    In: 2x Lightning Axe, 2x Ancient Grudge, 1x Nature's Claim
    G2 I keep a hand with ancient grudge, a fetchland, dakmor salvage, looting, and a couple of other cards and after I play looting, my opponent plays t1 Grafdigger's Cage so the earliest I can blow it up is turn 3 if I don't hit another land. By t3 my opponent has played a steel overseer, an ornithopter and an inkmoth nexus and on his turn after I destroy cage, he plays an Arcbound Ravager. In response to him activating overseer I flashback grudge to kill the ravager, but on the following turn I wasn't able to find enough lands with loam + conflag to kill enough of his creatures to stay alive after he plays cranial plating on the following turn. He told me after the match that he missed lethal with inkmoth nexus on the 2nd last turn of the game anyway

    Werewolves 2-0: Standard dredge stuff. Conflagrate cleans up the board on turn 3 and my opponent scoops pretty quickly :/

    Eldrazi Tron 2-0: G1 was standard dredge stuff - got lucky and was able to chain my dredgers together cleanly. Ran him over on turn 4 with a scourge devil when his only play for the game was spellskite.
    In: 1x Ghost Quarter, 1x Vengeful Pharaoh, 2x Ancient Grudge
    G2 I kept a reasonable hand with lands, dredgers and a looting and I manage to put a couple of creatures onto the board before my opponent plays grafdigger's cage, and the ancient grudge in my hand can't destroy it because he also controls a spellskite. So at this point I decided to kill his spellskite with grudge and dredge until I found ghost quarter so I can loam + quarter to lock him off his mana. (The other grudge I sided in was in the graveyard by being dredged btw) Without access to flashback looting I was pretty slow at finding it, so in the meantime I was getting in for 2 damage a turn with my narcomoeba's. Along the way he plays a TKS and exiles a thug, and when he attacked with it next turn I killed it with vengeful pharaoh. However the unfortunate part of this interaction is pharaoh goes on top then I draw the card from TKS leaving the battlefield, and I didn't have another way to bin it again immediately, but I was able to loam up to 10 cards in hand and bin the pharaoh and a couple of dredgers. Next turn he plays and cracks a relic of progenitus after I'd only managed to ghost quarter him once, but by this point he's at 5 life and can't deal with my two Narcomoeba's so I managed to take the game from there

    RG Titan Breach 2-0: G1 I kept the all-enabler hand with two lands, two neonates, two lootings and a reunion and managed to find an imp and a loam in the top three cards. Solid T4 kill with minimal interaction from my opponent
    In: 1x Life from the Loam, 1x Collective Brutality
    G2: I kept a solid hand with looting, neonate, shriekhorn, imp, two lands and an amalgam and play the looting on t1. My opponent then plays chalice on x=1 on turn 2 so I'm forced into an awkward position at this point. My only shot at winning is by dredging naturally and hoping to find gnaw to the bone before he casts scapeshift (at this point I wasn't sure what variant of RG valakut he was playing) so I start filling my graveyard while he ramps. After a few turns I put out a couple of amalgams / bloodghasts and hardcast a thug, since I have a stack of dredgers rotting in my hand, and he plays anger of the gods. Since I'm putting a decent amount of pressure on him at this point to find his combo and kill me with valakut, I keep dredging and casting dredgers and get him down to 10 or so life before anger #2 drops. In the following turns I flip a few narcomoeba's off a lucky dredge, cast my remaining 1 power dredge creatures and eventually get there with my board presence and a small ish conflagrate

    I'm keen to pick up a 3rd copy of loam to replace one of the shriekhorns but otherwise I'm pretty happy with where my list is at. Not sure if 19 is the correct land count but time will tell. Also not sure about the sideboard - does anyone else find that between ancient grudge and nature's claim, we have enough ways to deal with anti hate cards so abrupt decay is rarely relevant? The 2cmc BG casting cost is hard in a deck whose manabase is so deep into red. The main utility for it from my perspective is that it kills scooze or cage in jund and is uncounterable in the control matchup when they've played rest in peace, but I feel like 2 slots is overkill and one can be safely removed. To replace it I'm super keen to pick up a 2nd gnaw to the bone for the aggro matchup - since our deck is slower now than it previously was at filling the graveyard, given that we still need to find a copy of gnaw by the same point in the aggro matchup, it seems like an easy inclusion to me

    So my general Affinity siding is:

    In: 2 state/claim, 2 grudge, 2 axe
    Out: 2 neonate, 1 ghast, 1 haunted/scourge, 1 amaglam.

    Between my 1 darkblast, 3 conflags, 4 artifact kill spells, and 2 axes, I pretty much can kill anything but the fastest hands, and since Im aware that I am not the aggro deck, I dont need to have the race parts of my deck. Its worked out for me so far. Sometimes I add gnaw.

    Overall, I keep the 1 of decay. I know its never amazing, but its never dead, and its never bad. It has a lot of hats, so I can use it as a 1 of, instead of having to run 3 different cards in the board in its place.




    Quote from CthuluHoops »
    Dredge noob question here! Is the rainbow manabase still a viable option post ban? I'm assuming it is viable, just not as popular as the fetch/shock manabase. I'm shopping around for a new deck since I'm not enjoying Grixis Delver all that much, and Dredge seems like a fun deck that would make a good addition to the other deck I'm working on.


    Im assuming as the years go on dredge will eventually be 5 colored, like in legacy and vintage. But for now, the general consistence is that jund fetch base is better because of anger and pain. Rainbow is by no means NOT viable, but its likely NOT optimal. Post ban might have changed things, but so far most bigger results coming in arent rainbow.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
  • 1

    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from Xrg963 »
    Hey Lantern just one thing the technical play section is not updated to the GGT banning, specifically the parts 2,4, the "mulligan aggresively", the "remember you can hardcast your cards" and the "don't kill yourself by milling too much" parts. It's a minor thing but new players could be confused when they read that the plan C is hardcasting the GGT. You are doing a great job updating the primer Thumbs Up .


    Thanks. Yeah, that bit was mostly copy pasta. Izzet was on point there. I will update it.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Well first off. Just because the deck doesnt do extremely well because of dredge nerf (which thats not the reason. The deck should do better.) It still matters. Zoo has always suffered because control was bad in modern. If junk is now amazing, it still means zoo isnt all that great of a choice.

    As far as % goes. Zoo is occupying the same % as before, so that hasnt really changed.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 1

    posted a message on Dredge
    I'm not really sure what to say here. Prior to Amalgam I've played with dredgevine, and found that if I wanted to play the dredge vine route, it was almost always better to go with the midrange, the yard is for value, not all in dredgevine with lotleth trolls. Honestly, my most success was with a list that ran all the normal dredgevine list stuff, and Varolz, the Scar-Striped along with Death's Shadow.

    I never had success with more all in dredgevine lists, not like normal dredge, at anyrate. The bloodghasts were always one of the worst cards there because they didnt trigger vine. My guess would be if you wanted to do vine, you have to cast creatures, thus, use good castable creatures, not really bad dredge ones that are better in your graveyard then on the field.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    So since aether revolt there has been exactly 4 zoo decks in the top preformers. Gruul zoo takes 3 spots, company takes another. Only 1 ralliers in a company list and in a gruul list.

    Narnam Renegade is a 4 off in 2 out of 3 of the gruul lists, taking off 2 drops rather than 1 drops to lower the curve and up the good experiment one chance.

    Hidden Herbalists has shown up in 1 gruul zoo as a 4 of.

    So overall, these cards havent impacted the deck all that much. Notiably, rallier has impacted chord lists a ton. And landfall zoo is no where to be seen.

    Id say Narnam Renegade was the best card for zoo because it makes experiment one stronger.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Modern Esper Draw-Go
    Keep on the topic of the thread please
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Kiki Chord / Kiki Company / Kiki Evolution
    Please keep the conversation on track. Keep it on cards not people
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from itsTragek »
    Total noob here. I wanted to get back into Magic. Put together a modern Dredge deck after reading about all the decks. Practiced by myself for a little while trying to get used to the strategy. Played some good matches tonight and beat Eldrazi Tron twice. Ended with 47 life the second game with Gnaw. Felt really solid and exciting.

    Still not too knowledgeable on the sideboarding. But I did side in the Gnaw that worked great, the Vengeful Pharaoh worked great. And the Haunted Dead also worked out great.
    Quote from Hayati2013 »
    I just picked up a Dredge deck on MTGO; the price drops make it very cheap now (122 tix) and I do not believe for one second that the Troll banning hurts the deck in a material way.

    Get 'em while they're hot Smile


    Sorry. I'm still workin' on the primer to help new guys out... its about half done now. The sideboarding guide I'm working on is taking a long time, because, well our sideboarding is pretty tough. I have to figure out a way that people can just have this open on the side of their bars and board while teaching why I'm saying to do it simply.

    Still, going to the first post, I've added QUITE a bit of info (I'm running on close to 60-70 man hours at this point) so feel free to check it out.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Infect
    Quote from mjg94 »
    Hi, I was wondering if this deck should be moved out of tier 1 now with the probe ban? It has seen a pretty significant drop in top 8s already, and it will probably only get worse once people really realize the deck is dead and worthless.

    I'm assuming you are new to our forums and not intending on trolling. But I would like to point out a few rules. The first is to answer your question. We use hard Modern Nexus meta game data, X amount of wins in paper and online, to create our tiering system, and the % changes each month. So Infects % slips under our guidelines, then yes, I will move infect accordingly. We update this around the 10th every month, so you got about 2 weeks before we update it.

    Modern nexus is the most comprehensive tiering for modern decks, and looks at all wins, not just reported wins, as well as paper. So well know then. Infect is still pulling results however.

    Lastly, the forums are here to serve as a place to talk about the cards in the deck. If you wish to talk about meta anaylizing, please go to the state of modern thread. I'm sure you didn't intend to troll, but saying the deck is dead and worthless would be trolling to our rules.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Quote from Chilli_Axe »
    Quote from tangleweed »
    So. Where can I order custom sleeves with that pic? Totally awesome.


    http://www.inkedgaming.com/


    Make sure to order them upside down, and order outer sleeves too: http://www.cardkingdom.com/mtg-supplies/kmc-sleeves-character-guard-mat-clear-60-count
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Before I went to FMN, I complained to my fiance that I had to make a new image banner without the troll. While I was at FMN, she jokingly made this:



    Sometimes its nice to be living with a professional Illistrator whose joking 1 hour worth of work is stupidly good. So thats our new banner.

    I made them into sleeves for yall too. If you make these on inked gaming, make sure to make these upside down so you can put sleeve covers on them.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge



    Ran this in my modern today. Forgot to sub my haunted dead in over scourge. But whatever.


    Round 1 Vs Meleira Company
    This was against my buddy. He commented about this being his favorate deck, and since I was out of this store for a month, gravehate has gone down. I felt bad because I'm sure I'll see the hate go up again next week :p Any who, game 1 I got natural comboed. Whomp Whomp. Couldn't really complain about losing to that since we both do unfair things. Nothing I could do. I was rushing to get conflag up since I saw it coming, and didnt hit it in time. to game 2!

    In: 2 bog, 2 axe, 2 brutality. Out: 1 Forest, 1 devil, 2 neonate, 2 brutality

    I dunno if I should have added pharaoh. If it went midrange beat down, it would have been nice. Regardless I was scared most of combo than anything else. Shuffled up and went at it, this time I axed a turn 2 Wall of roots, to deny him speed, then I got a fast conflag to wipe the board and take out combo peices, so it was pretty quick from there. I didnt get much of a force up, but the 2 dudes I got out did it.

    Game 3 I had a pretty sweet opener of looting 1 dredge and an amalgam into a second looting tossing out another amalgam and a ghast. So I had a race, and while he was on the back foot I landed a conflag, chained into another conflag to end it.

    2-1 1-0

    Round 2 vs GR Titan Shift

    Game 1 was close as hell. We both went off to the races, joking that neither one of us really had interaction. Well, seriously the dice roll won the game. He went first and he had leathal first. Had I gone, Id have it.

    Sided in: 1 Gnaw to the Bone, Vengeful Pharaoh, 2 brutality and 2 Seize. Out: 1 Darkblast, 2 Cathartic, 1 loam, 1 narc.

    I had to mull from my lack of land, and kept a 6 that let me discard, and use an imp in my yard. Then I just wiffed. It took me 2 turns to get back on track, and I did and ramped it up on max, but then it was already too late. We talked, you just cant durtle against titan shift, simple as that.

    0-2 1-2

    Rounnd 4 vs Shamans
    It was a budget brew, so it was a pretty quick and dirty win. Game 1 was won off the back of recasting stinkweed over and over, until I got conflag out to wipe the board and finish him off with 2 ghasts.

    In: 1 Gnaw, 1 Pharaoh, 2 Axe. Out: 2 Neonate, 1 devil.

    This game was actually much more down to the wire. Rage Forger is a hell of a card. I was able to control the flow of the game while making amalgams to block, and the life burn down slow enough that I could take over the game with the swarm. I'll tell you what was pivital though... Basic forests, mountains, and copperlines. Both the scapeshift matchup and here I was able to keep my life total high and buy turns I wouldnt normally have.

    2-0 2-1

    Round 3 vs Grixs Delver
    Game 1 I lootinged into a conflag, and even though I had a fast hand, I really didnt want to deal with removal, snap removal to control my flow, and getting destroyed by a delver. So I conflaged the delver. After this, my stuff rose from the grave, which mana leaks werent stopping. So I was able to take over the game.

    In: 2 Collective Brutality, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Bog. Out: Devil, forest, 2 mom hug
    I got a collective brutality and killed a delver while stripping an anger of the gods. He took a shakey hand because of those two cards. So after they were gone it was easy peicey to finish the game off.

    Overall
    Felt great. The engine failed only one game, which was the titan shift game 2. The basics in the deck really did work for round 2 and 3, helping me keep death at bay. Devil was fine, and haunted woulda been fine too. Id need more games to really say if I dont need the extra discard. The sideboard was always solid. I think a few numbers could shift. It felt like dredge the whole time.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    daviusminimus, its on the ajdenda. I wont do a matchup by matchup, but I will do a how to counter their hate with ours (rip vs abrupt decay sieze or natralize effects) and a different section on what is cut for what (neonate is cut for lightning axe)
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Mkay. I got the OP now, and will be making a new primer. Please shoot me things you want included. I'm keeping a lot of what Izzet has, because its worth keeping.

    Also, Made the OP for the tread's date halloween. Seemed fitting.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    For what its worth (please dont take this offensively, I do not mean it that way) but cockatrice is really terrible to use for hard data. Ita great to use to get a feel of a deck, but most people use it to learn decks, not grind.

    So because of this, youll find most players arent compident with the deck and will make bad plays. My win rate on cockatrice currently with dredge is around 80% and in paper or mtgo is 55%. When nothing is on the line, and players arent usuing "their" deck, games tend to be 1 sided. Its one of the reasons most players put more stock into mtgo results or pro gauntlets.

    Channel fireball had about 2 years they were terrible at modern. Later they said it was because they tried to play the best deck and gauntleted each other blind. They said this was a mistake, they needed to play against infect with a real infect player to make good data.

    Ill never look down data (and seriously thats a lot of work, so thank you) but I just wanted to point out that win % can be way way off on cockatrice. As a rule of thumb, I take off 10-20% depending on my expertice with the deck or style of deck.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!
    Its true. Whats healthy sometimes isnt very fun. Counterspells after counters arent fun.

    But neither is losing to a turn 3 nut belecher. Counters happen to stop that.

    Counters and belcher can be interchanged with other word like removal and 15/15 trample, but it doesnt matter. Fun=/=healthy. This is a pvp game for.god sakes, someone has to lose and feel not super great.
    Posted in: Modern
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Izzet has handed the primer ovee to me. Thats a section ill add since people keep asking, but mostly just clean it up. Unless people want to see other stuff added.
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Yeah. 2 is the right dakmor count. I went to 3 when I was 19 on lands and 2 loam. It was aweful. I think 19 lands work, but you need 3 loams no matter what then. I still perfer 20 lands.

    Im fine with haunted and 1 of darkblast, but haunted is more of emergancy discard clause more than bodies. To me its just good to know I can fall back on it.

    As far as the forest. I use it. I have the space, Its good off a loam to conserve life. The big thing is blood moon, path and aggro. Having a way to enable gnaw for no life is pretty big for me. Sometimes 1 life to 3 life makes a huge difference vs burn. Espeically because you want green red and black after board.

    Oh. One last thing on haunted. One of the other reasons I liked it was flexability. More options are good, but it just gives us better random matchups. Delver, burn, infect, affinity, zoo, kiln fiend, it just randomly helps outs. Its never mind blowing, but it does a lot of jobs. Jack of all trades master of none kinda deal. I often side it out, but I never hate that it exists
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Quote from weezie13 »
    Anybody else think ELDRAZI could be something in Frontier? I don't know anything about the format deck-wise so far... as to what's being played... but seems the Eldrazi are all quite cheap at the moment... TKS and Reality Smasher and their friends...

    No tron lands and eldrazi lands. Ramp will pick the best top wnd creatures regardless of if they are eldrazi.
    Posted in: Modern
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    posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Frontier will keep spiking the fetchlands. Its not gunna change. I bought mine a few weeks ago because I saw that. Mana is always the first thing to spike in new formats.

    While I'm sure newer player's minds would be blown, when modern was not even an official format, I spent 1 grand on fetchlands and shock lands. Shocklands were around 5-7 dollars for a playset back then. Modern got announced and within a week the shocks jumped up to about 20 dollars per card. I sold them off then, and pretty much owned everything you could own in modern back then.

    Brag post aside, It's something that people are doing right now with frontier. I've been on the low key, buying M15 cards and on that I want (I dont wanna do spec buying anymore. I paid off college, so I'm good. Its super unhealthy for the game.) but havent been spiked by this bubble. Depending on if wizards supports the format, prices are going to sky rocket, and stabilize high for 2-3 months, before dropping but still staying high, or they will drop if wizards openly condemns the format.

    Heres the list of cards the boat has already sailed on:



    Cards that still have a little room to increase, but are topping out:


    Here's my short list of stuff that will spike sooner rather than later:


    I'm sure I can find more... I'm working on an article about it now. But if you wanted something from that lower list but didnt buy it yet, I'd pull the trigger. Frontier hype isnt dying, saddly, so its going to inflate prices. If it becomes a supported format, all of those cards I listed will go up, some more than others, but they will. I dont suggest speccing on them, because unlike over extended, Wizards has been pretty clear they dont "love" frontier, but understand eventually they will need a format between modern and standard. But they dont like the starting point at all, nor do they think enough time has gone by.

    At worst, no support happens and the hype dies, and the 3rd list I added will drop a few %. but not by much than now, so yeah.
    Posted in: Modern
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    posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!
    Quote from ExcaKill »
    Do you guys think any of the Grishoalbrand cards will see a bann inn the near future? Because i fall in love with tht deck and aim to build it in irl and i would be rly sad if key cards would see bans in the near future


    Probably not. If Dredge lives in this format, sideboards will always have grave hate, and the deck will always be contained. Its diff higher on the unfair scale. But realistically, if Spirit Guide or something eats a ban, the deck will just turn more like reanimator in legacy. Slower, but harder to stop.

    You're probably fine.
    Posted in: Modern
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