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  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Norin the Wary - Heads I win, Tails you lose.
    Quote from buddha84 »
    a suggested swap in another thread: aftershock -> volcanic offering.
    thoughts?


    Absolutely not. They're completely different cards with completely different values.

    Honestly, you couldn't pay me to play offering.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[SCD]] Random Card of the Day (12/28) - Marsh Gas
    It's pretty funny in Hanna, Ship's Navigator, with splash usage in the odd enchantress deck.

    Otherwise, unless you're playing it just to show other people that it actually exists, it's just one of dozens of bad counters.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on The linearity index, how much room for innovation do I have?
    Quote from donfuan »
    can you do a list of all Grixis generals to see who's got the most room for creativity? Pleeease Smile


    This is the wrong way to look at this. There isn't a single general out there that doesn't have a lot of interesting and relatively unique playstyles off the beaten path, but no less effective.

    When I see the word "auto-include" it bugs me a little. There are very few cards that I would consider to actively agree with the word, and of those, depending on the path that you take the deck, all of them are entirely cuttable.

    As an example of the things you can do - When I look at Nekusar I instantly see four distinct styles of playing.

    1) Group Draw - the classic, kill with the power of hug.

    2) Storm - You're running him mostly for the colors, but if you actually manage to cast Nekusar he can either help you recover from a failed attempt or assist in the kill via his second ability.

    3) Infect - I heard giving Nekusar Infect and then Wheeling is a great way to make friends win.

    4) Control - You don't need to use his ability for anything more than a way to accelerate a lead and to slowly bleed your opponents dry. Grixis is already super strong in regards to this playstyle, and there are really a million ways to interpret this.

    And there are more that could work!

    Basically, don't take apart a deck because it's not "creative enough," take it apart if you're not having fun with it. If you really like the general, but hate the playstyle... do something different! Nothing's holding Edric back from being a dredge deck. Nothing's holding Kaalia back from being a combo deck. Nothing's holding Child of Alara back at all - baby's crazy bro. Hell, Oloro can even be played aggro. You'd be surprised at the amount of actual synergy that playstyle has with his abilities.

    Go forth and do weird things. This is EDH.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Norin the Wary - Heads I win, Tails you lose.
    This is an interesting idea of not playing Mind's Eye at all. Obviously with Honor-Worn Shuko it's more than a little crazy, but otherwise, as stated, it's got a required opportunity cost of leaving at least one mana open for the ability.

    After stewing this idea over a warm cup of tears, its not a bad idea. The first activation costs a grand total of six mana to draw one card, but after that gains a lot of repeated value. Comparing the overall mana investment to the number of cards drawn draws a picture of an actually quite terrible artifact. In the space of one turn, Blue Sun's Zenith, starting at six mana invested, draws three cards. We've only drawn one, and it's reliant on the opponent to draw, first. I don't know about you, but I'd rather spend all that mana to draw three cards in one turn rather than one card. If we put... say.. ten mana into it, That's a fresh hand with Zenith (seven cards!) and five for the Eye, albeit spaced out among the opponent's draws as a matter of course.

    Mind's Eye is, however, far more powerful if you include a wheel effect, and assumes that you've untapped. You have the capability to draw quite literally 1/4 of your deck in one go, most likely at the cost of your turn. Feeling like a blue deck has never felt more red! But is this frequent enough to warrant inclusion based on this sort of synergy? It might be. You're guaranteed at the very least opponent's drawsteps, barring shenanigans, and you've got the following ways to force it:



    But, again, these assume that you've got a gob of mana ready to go, and a hand that you haven't played for some reason or another. In addition to that, you're getting a new hand with these anyways, so if there isn't a line you can take... open your eyes.

    Mulling this over... I think I've just been assuming Mind's Eye is the best possible choice for that slot and that role without actively looking for better solutions (assuming they exist.) I wouldn't be opposed at all to slicing it out in favor of either a different draw engine (does it need to be, or single-shot?) or possibly Myr Battlesphere. I'm still looking for a decent substitution for this card, and Eye might be it. Hell, Commander's Sphere wouldn't be remiss.

    This being said, Mind's Eye has still performed its function well for the past three years. This discussion doesn't mean that it's suddenly a bad card that needs to be cut instantly from every deck ever. It's still arguably the better choice for slower metas, or if you're packing a bit more mana and wheel than others might be.

    I guess the questions that need to be considered are:
    1) Is Mind's Eye still good enough?
    2) Do we need another source of draw?
    3) What could replace it that will have a higher impact on the game?
    4) Does it blend?

    Go!
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [Offtopic] Community Thread
    Quote from Galspanic »
    I joined Instagram about 4 months ago. I am totally hip with that.
    ( No )


    trololololol I'm going to have to call bull on the entirety of this statement and all of its implications.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [Offtopic] Community Thread
    Just picked up the Red deck at MSRP, which is nice. I have to say, after going through it to pick out what I need for Norin... I'm almost tempted to keep it around in some form. It's actually a fairly well-built deck. There are some really glaring changes that need to be made, but overall it's not the pile of crap that C13 was.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Norin the Wary - Heads I win, Tails you lose.
    Quote from dnLL »
    Quote from kalkris »
    What I think you may be missing here, though, is that Gaka's deck is GEARED SPECIFICALLY to be multiplayer. And yes, it DOES win competitive multiplayer (and even 1v1 fairly consistently, as seen by my triumph over a BUNCH of decks in 1v1 using Gaka's list - granted, I had a lot of close calls, but I misplay like a wild boar who plays Magic... or something :P). I have beaten Reaper King, Sen Triplets, Kiku, Zur (very much an optimized deck), Kaalia, Skullbriar, Sharuum, Rhys the Redeemed, et al, all 1v1 - again, some close shaves but I won all of my games there.


    I'm not missing anything, I know that Norin is geared towards multiplayer. I'm not the one saying it is competitive in duel.


    I assumed that the setting being discussed for the "competitive" side of things would be the infamous multiplayer pods. Norin is a multiplayer deck and thusly relies on the dynamics of that setting to function. In a multiplayer scenario, Norin can and will beat so called "finetuned" lists. When there are three other players sitting down, things get wonky, much to the delight of Norin. This is the multiplayer section, after all.

    If you're trying to take Norin into a 1v1 situation, then you're dealing with an entirely seperate decklist that discludes about half of the multiplayer deck in favor of even more disruption - but now we get to run and not feel guilty about lots and lots of spot removal and singular interaction. Using a tuned 1v1 Norin list, Edric is a really easy matchup, actually. Most Red decks have something near to favourable against him. Zur is slightly tougher being 4 power, but still doable. But I digress. We're here to discuss this iteration; multiplayer.


    Gonna take a hard pass on dualcaster then? I feel like your probably right with that call but I thought I'd at least give him a tryout. Honestly just the fact that he's a 2/2 I can flash in to Trigger etbs at instant speed seems like it would guarantee he wouldn't be a dead card.

    As for battlesphere there isn't actually anything like that currently in the deck so you'll probably have to go after something you find less useful or redundant. A few possibilities that come to mind off the top of my head are:
    Manic Vandal - tuktuk scrapper is better and more tutorable and theres other artifact hate
    Warstorm surge - nearly matches in cost and you already have pandemonium. Plus giving this away really sucks
    Grip of chaos - i hate how expensive this card is. I totally get this one's role but it sucks that playing it basically consumes a turn without necessarily getting immediate value. It also messes with a lot of our strategies too. Also removal (at least in my meta) is like 75% wraths so theres no guarantee it will stop anything


    Dualcaster - Passing on this or not is highly, highly dependent on your meta. Mine has gotten a recent influx of newer players, or those who look at all the value creatures being printed lately and go "hey, these are pretty good." This means a much higher quantity of creatures and a much lower quantity of spells. Right now the only spells really being cast are the odd cultivate or fact or fiction. Granted red getting a copy of these is fantastic, but is it worth holding onto a Dualcaster and leaving three mana up in order to achieve this? To me, it's simply not worth it.

    As for keeping him simply to trigger ETB effects - a small secret is that Norin doesn't have that many cards dependent on other ETB critters. The ones that we do have are already fueled nicely by Norin and splash goblins. Including a creature with the main purpose of triggering those effects so that it's not a "dead" card is better served by playing something that has relevance all of the time, or at the very least easily tutorable for those situations where you need it. Granted, he can be Imperial'd, but that's it. If this guy was a goblin there would be a much stronger case for inclusion simply based on the power of the Goblin toolbox at this point in the game.

    Manic Vandal - I like this guy for three main reasons.
    1) He's easy to cast
    2r means you can drop him off of a mana crypt or sol ring and a land. This doesn't seem important, but this frees up highly valuable R for things like Siege-Gang Commander. This is highly relevant when you're trying to do relevant things. This sentence is irrelevant. Relevance.

    Quite literally, the most basic and important aspect of the game is access to mana (screw you, dredge) and freeing up colors is always great.

    2) He blows up artifacts
    It's what the tin says. I dare you to think of an EDH deck that doesn't run a suite of high-powered artifacts, or just plain old Sol Ring and co. No, you're not allowed to use Dredgric as an example.

    3) He's the second tutorable artifact deconstructor.
    While being harder to tutor for than Tuktuk Scrapper, he is still a tutorable source of artifact destruction. Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the other goblin artifact killers (though I grant it's been a long time since I looked) and if one showed greater worth, it would most likely take its place.

    As an addendum to this portion - having multiple ways to kill artifacts is highly desired. I'm here to play EDH, not watch someone play solitaire and then suddenly declare "I win!"


    Grip of Chaos - Honestly, learning to play with this card is the single most important thing you can learn in order to pilot this deck most effectively. It literally teaches you when to play removal, when not to, what type of removal to play, and how to deal with it, nevermind all the other lessons. Yes, it's expensive, but it's completely worth it. If I'm going to be spending 6 mana on a card, it better have a devastating impact on the game. If you tell me this card doesn't you're both wrong and too sober to play.


    Hopefully this shows some of my problems. It's difficult to cut things without a really good reason. I feel that Battlesphere will bring enough to the table to be worth playing, but it's hard to tell what it will replace, as every cut has an impact on how the deck actually functions.

    Quote from dnLL »

    About Grip of Chaos, this is an awesome card... but it's unplayable. At least for me. Multiplayer game with 77 permanents and Chaos Warp being casted... that's just too complicated. There is a lot of cards in EDH that target any permanent and that makes it really hard to play on paper. And you can't just say something like... ok, we are 4 players, so let's roll the dice to decide which player it will be, and then roll another one to choose one of his 15 permanents. It doesn't work that way. Because a player with less permanents would be penalized if you do it this way. So you really have to number every of the 77 permanents from 1 to 77 and take your phone app or whatever to pick a random number. It's just long. It's like Radiate and Thieves' Auction. Really good chaos cards that tend to be hard to play IRL. I used to play every of these cards on MTGO however.


    That's the point. Grip of Chaos exists to make the game complex, to confuse the opponent, and to find all the little edges that this brings. Most of all, it's great for drinking games. I'm perfectly willing to sit down with pen and paper and figure out exactly how everything resolves - EDH is about doing the strange and silly. Grip most certainly qualifies.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [Offtopic] Community Thread
    Quote from Hermes_ »
    i wonder if it's possible to make a tricolor superfriends...


    If i remember correctly the first superfriends list was three colors.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on MaRo's comments on commander make me sad.
    Quote from cryogen »
    Quote from N.S. Barrett »


    The issue I have is that sometimes Maro seems to see the color pie as flavor only, but in other cases like this he talks about the restrictions that the color pie needs to present, why it's good for the game, etc. They are two entirely different things. So of course, the player base is confused as to what in the world is being talked about when he opens his mouth about color.

    So, the real debate is which version of the color pie is the actual one. Either fundamental restrictions are in design, or it's flavor only that design upholds. And, which version of the pie should it uphold? On that, it's pretty clear to me that on creature removal, card draw and several other things critical to the creature oriented games that Maro wants everyone to be having, you just can't deny them to certain colors without not seeing those colors played. And seeing as how Pongify, Harmonize, etc, continue to get printed, evidently design agrees with that. And Maro is out in left field when he says criticizes another design team's printing of a Green card that kills creatures.

    As to his opinion on Standard playing better than Eternal formats because of color pie mistakes, the more relevant reason why all the Legacy Delver decks look the same no matter the colors is because the lands are there that allow 3 color decks full of 1 drops. Because one day design sat down with the competition committee, who then presented the problem that Green and White weren't getting any play in events. The alternatives were either break the color pie, or make it so everyone could build multicolor decks. Then, Onslaught block happened, and everyone loved fetch lands. Maro became lead designer, his first block was Ravnica, a multicolor block, and then every block after that included cards that broke the mechanical restrictions of color pie. Talking about color pie restrictions now is like old men talking about how cool the world was before cell phones. The only ones interested in the conversation are nostalgic, and no one takes any of the arguments seriously.

    I don't understand. Almost every time I see someone ask him a color pie question on his blog, he is quick to point out that flavor is a bad justification because you can make a flavor justification for anything.


    Something being a bad justification isn't going to stop it from being used.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Norin the Wary - Heads I win, Tails you lose.
    Quote from dnLL »
    Well that's why, because Norin shouldn't be that scary. Besides the optional Gauntlet of Might and Imperial Recruiter, this is a mono-colored deck that can be build for very not much and honestly, I wouldn't even bother playing this in a competitive meta.

    But yeah, against new players playing the precon decks... I could see Norin winning like every game.


    See, this is kind of interesting - I've been playing this deck to great success in both highly competitive and fairly casual settings. How the deck functions in either environment is entirely up to the choices you make and the lines you play. I'd be completely willing (and have) to take this into a side-event at a GP or PT, an I'd fully expect to have a reasonable chance of winning. Every deck is beatable, regardless of any perceived "power imbalances." Norin has been constructed and tested to deal with the widest possible variance of decks, and its competitiveness is entirely reliant on the pilot. Which is just the way I like it.

    Don't even doubt the capability of a mono-colored deck. Simply being monocolored is a great way to abuse decks that require specific mana costs or timings. Stuff like Blood Moon or Ruination are fantastic ways to disrupt three color decks. Goblin Settler backs that up if you really need to take out a basic. Don't be afraid to be a jerk in order to stop shenanigans. You're the only one allowed to use that word, it's been banned by the RC for all other decks. You can look it up. I didn't.

    Norin is certainly scary. It's a four player game, not a 1v1v1v1. Take advantage of it. You're red. You're loaded with every piece of disruption and then some more. When that's not enough, you can steal their disruption to disrupt them with. C'mon! It's like eating your cake and having it, too. Chocolate cake.


    On an individual card-based topic: Grinning Ignus. I'm not a fan of it, but I understand where y'all are coming from. Slightly delayed ramp that can double as a forced Pandemonium/ect trigger machine. I don't usually favor cards that blink for the sake of blinking (we've already got one that's literally immortal on turn 1!) but I'm willing to give it another go. Which leaves me with another problem... I'm still looking to see what could possibly be cut for Myr Battlesphere testing. The previous possibilities of Daretti and Feldon in for Post and Racketeer are pretty much shoe-ins come Friday, such are the experiences I've had with some really terribly drawn proxies. Seriously, don't hire me for art.

    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
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