MTG Salvation

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This deck might be my winningest deck yet. Altar of the Brood has been outstanding.

The trigger headaches are there, and I am considering pulling Confusion in the Ranks to cut down a bit on them.

Cheers!

This post is a troll.

Definately. You must be really drunk to consider pulling Confusion in the Ranks. I must confess I once milled my opponents to under ten cards, when I copied Genesis Chamber with a Sculpting Steel, while Altar of the Brood was already in play. Cloudstone Curio and a Goblin War Marshal made sure I had at least 8 ETB triggers each turn, not even counting landdrops nor the 3 triggers my oppenents gave me for each card they played.

In the meantime I pulled the alter though. It's too underwhelming most of the time, and filling graveyards without being able to exile them is quite risky too.

Don't forget - I pulled Confusion at one point (for the sake of online play, but it still counts) and since then, hell nah. It's too good.

Altar of the Brood you should definitely cut. It literally doesn't do anything - consider that you're only taking ~1% of a deck per activation. It's going to take a long time to get anywhere with it unless you get a hilarious Warp World activation or something. I might consider playing it for that alone, but this isn't a Warp World centric deck. Sort of. Kind of.

Suppose I'll look at the cards spoiled so far:
Awaken the Sky Tyrant - Just no.
Dream Pillager - Dream Crusher. No!
Fiery Confluence - Almost good. It's too expensive for such simplistic effects - you're simply paying for the option of which to use. Yes, you can do it three times, but it doesn't fit in with the goals of Norin. It's still playable for most monored decks, though.
Magus of the Wheel - N..ooh. Wait, what? A creature wheel? Now I absolutely know that Wizards is screwing with me, for not making it 2 power or a goblin, but at least they got the 3cc correct. I have the feeling that this will be a thing. Of course, testing will need to be done, as always!
Meteor Volley - Say it together, class! No!
Mizzix's Mastery - Say this sucker five times fast. Interesting, but not for us. Might be useable in a storm deck, but even then.... It's as strange as its name!

Oh yeah, colorless. Duh!

Blade of Selves - Wait what? This card is really damn funny, but it's not for Norin. Yes, you can attack with Norin and do silly token things. Yes, you can attack with Siege-Gang and make someone very sad. But it's an equipment with no instant value, and it's got these small words that you gotta squint to see and that just ain't me. It's 6 mana for tricks. It's not worth it.
Sandstone Oracle - This is interesting except for the seven mana part. You know, the part that involves actually playing it! Don't do it!
Scytheclaw - Not for us. Interesting effect, but not for us.
Seal of the Guildpact - This would go so well with our massive spell count! Play it in every deck! If you look closely, you can see the biting sarcasm of a man without any ice cream. Why is the ice cream gone, dog? Why did you trip me and make me spill it? Why do you want to play this card?

I really enjoyed the Partial Paris mulligan system. I can understand wanted to align with the modern Mulligan system, howevermuch I disagree with it.

Quote from Galspanic »

I see them as possible Cube additions and that's it. But that's enough to add them to my want list.

ISBP - we need to talk about Star Wars stuff too. That movie is coming out soon and I want to see if you want Episode 7 in there with 1-6. I suspect not but visually, Jar Jar Abrams is knocking that crap out of the park.

I still don't get the Jar Jar hate.

He was a character in a film designed to get young kids to watch and enjoy them. He was mildly entertaining, and provided at least some measure of plot device (which is more than I can say for most comic relief characters.) Jar Jar's "use" in episode (3) was even believable. No, Jar Jar was not qualified to be a Senator. Neither are many politicians. What's important is that his intelligence, or lack there-of, was used cruelly and precisely to engineer the rise of Palpatine. I was down with it.

Could Jar Jar have been done away with or perhaps utilized/performed better? Duh. But he was fine. It was a kids movie! Everyone who had seen star wars back in the day had grown up. I'm sure they were expecting movies along the same tone, despite Phantom Menace being marketed pretty clearly for the new generation.


That being said, Episode 7 pisses me off. Not because it exists, but because of where it exists in the Star Wars Universe. I've got nearly every book written for Star Wars, and absolutely love how the Universe has grown and changed. They killed Chewie by dropping a goddamn moon on him. Coruscant got essentially terraformed. The Solo's have kids, and one of them went Vader. The Bounty Hunter trilogy showed us that there were other characters in the universe, and Boba Fett was both a bad-ass and humanized. We got an incredible backstory with the Heir to the Empire books, and the Grand Admiral Thrawn series. These were all series that could have been absolutely excellent retellings of novel canon. I was so hyped to see which storyline they'd adapt, or if they'd do soemthing in a different time-frame altogether.

Nope. The books were declared non-canon after being the mainstay for Star Wars stories. Now, the shows remain canon, but make slightly less sense. A lot of the background for those shows were written in books, books which only make sense because of the world building that all the authors (and george lucas!) collaborated on.

Instead, we've got a new storyline. This annoys me, because now I need to buy more books, and I can't order them chronologically anymore. Why Disney, whyyyyyyyyyy.

tl;dr - JJ OK, E7 NO

I have discovered that alcohol fuels writing more effectively than caffeine. Oh dear.

I've finally got my mile time under 5 minutes again! Woohoo!

Quote from Sheldon »

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Quote from Sheldon »

Bought a new house on Thursday. More correctly, a piece of land on which to build a house. It's basically the same square footage that we're currently in (under 100sqft more), but much more efficiently used. The second floor is my combined office/RPG Pit/home theater/game room--measuring a tidy 760 square feet. It will be the nerd space from hell.

Is that where you'll laugh drunkenly about people complaining about the ban list?

People complain about the ban list? I hadn't noticed.

Personally, I'm offended by the lack of Norin on the banlist.

Yes, social sexual equality matters. No, men and women are not physically equal. Yes, We can fix the first. No, rants about the "patriarchy" aren't going to help.

Is it EoT yet?

OK folks, it's been over a year and change, but it's here. A change to the deck!

Two of the changes are actually old ones - but I left for parts unknown before I got the chance to update the front. Those are:

+ Feldon of the Third Path
+ Daretti, Scrap Savant

- Trading Post
- Viashino Racketeer

I long said that Racketeer was only a placeholder until something better came along, and it sure did. The second cut, Trading Post, is one that will remain on the "still good" list forever, and might pop back in at some point. In fact, the way that I'm envisioning the next few sets, it might be sooner rather than later.

Coming in is Feldon and Daretti from the commander set. Both of these guys give us some insane utility for effective costs. In a chaotic game, just one well-timed revive could be what you need to win. Both of these are making Myr Battlesphere look holy moly attractive. I anticipate this to come at some point in the future, if there is a good enough reason to drop some of the goblin package.

But that's only two changes! What's the third?

+ Pia and Kiran Nalaar

- Mind's Eye

No Flameshadow Conjuring! Tokens are too important and you don't get as much use out of this as you would hope.

This change is partially obvious, and partially strange. A lot of people are in love with Mind's Eye. Yes, you can do crazy things with Honor-Worn Shaku, but the way things are going, it's harder to justify a 5 mana artifact that doesn't actually impact the board itself. There are arguments to be made about Conjuror's Closet, yes, but for now, it's good to go in my book. That may change by the next set or two, or if someone can really persuade me. It's also harder to justify holding mana up to draw when we have so many more effects to play. I'm losing less interest in mind's eye by the second.

So let's discuss Pie and Cake. S/He is basically a beetleback chief with benefits. Those benefits include flying artifact tokens and the ability to use those tokens and other artifacts as lethal weapons. Really, it's a sexy card. At four mana, you're getting a ton of value for it. At 2 power, it's tutorable. There was no way this wasn't going into the deck.

So, the future. Where is this deck going?

With the printing and inclusion of cards like feldon and daretti, it's getting harder to get by with "just" tokens. Many of the effects that we used to swear by are starting to lose value in comparison to dropping something like a Myr Battlesphere. I mean, there are now two more ways to revive it, and there is so much synergy in the deck. It's looking really, really tasty... but for now I'm not going to go there.

What needs to happen is a discussion - are goblins the way to go, or are specifically useful goblins the key? Is casting Goblin Recruiter better than casting something with a useful effect now?

Obviously Wizards needs to print some useful things in order to make this reality, but we've been well on the way for two years. This being said, I still want to see about dropping the curve even lower. I want to be able to make full use out of stuff like Cloudstone Curio, and less of things like Tuktuk Scrapper or Aftershock. (two or three cc goblin artifact etb killer please)

Right now the four and five mana points are the points where Norin's cards start to do scary things alone - but we've still got a lot of one and two mana tricks that outshine them. It's these tricks that I want to focus on, rather than dropping standard 4-drop useful card... but I also want to have room for a bomb that changes the outcome. Wizards, get to printing interesting cards for me. Seriously.

In any case - that's where we stand as of now!

Quote from spike4972 »

awful and offensive.

This was by far the least offensive Max ever.

Building an EDH/Commander deck is an art form. And of course, there will inevitably be wildly varying views on how the art should feel, should be described, and should be visualized. Every card in the ninety-nine should be carefully selected from the palette of over 13,000 shades to most perfectly declare your story. Of course, if you're reading this thread, most of this doesn't apply to you. You want all of the paint on one canvas. One hundred cards is too few.

See, if your creation of choice is Norin the Wary, "99" is an illusion. Your story will consume all of the decks on the field, and you can proudly proclaim your victory with a 2/1 that doesn't really do anything, yet does everything you want it to.

Welcome to Norin the Wary - The only deck that can end the game with more cards on your side of the board than you've actually cast.

Why Norin?
Since the beginning of Norin's existence, there have been a lot of interesting and powerful red generals released into the petting zoo. Stuff like Kiki-Jiki, Krenko, or Purphoros exist, and are seemingly more powerful than Norin could ever be.

Well, you're wrong.

Where's the fun in running the obvious? All three of these seemingly powerful concoctions are extremely simple, have been done to death, and simply don't have the re-playability to sustain themselves for more than a year or two. It's much better to look at generals like Jaya Ballard, who has multiple interesting build paths, or Márton Stromgald because text box. These are the decks that will last throughout differing sets, and will offer the most bang for your buck. You cannot have a dull story when one of the key cards in your deck revolves around discarding itself.

Furthermore, you're killing people with a 2/1 that can't be killed through conventional removal, has the greatest flavor text of all time, and is being given active support nearly every set.

The most important part to figuring out if Norin is the best general for you is a very simple, quite literally vital check.

Are you breathing?

If you answered "yes" to this question, Norin is probably the general for you.

If you answered "no" to this question, mono black is that way.

Norin the Wary is a general with a lot of history, and a lot of subtle jokes and elbow jabs. You can be assured of hugely varying reactions every time you plop him down in front of a table, and can be assured of hugely satisfying reactions at the end of every game.

However, be warned - Norin does not play well against solitaire-esque decks. If the player simply does not care about others' board state, you might not have the greatest game.



The Truth!
1 In the beginning players shuffled their libraries and presented their generals. 2 Now the board was formless and empty, mulligans were resolved, and Sol Rings were hovering in hands.

3 And the First Player said, "Let there be Norin," and there was Norin. 4 The second player saw that Norin blinked, and chose to let it go. 5 The blue player thought this was pointless, and allowed it - the first turn.

6 And the First Player said, "We need more creatures." 7 So he tapped two mountains and cast Genesis Chamber. 8 The second player sighed. The blue player was tapped out - the second turn.

9 And the First Player said, "I really hate nonbasic lands." And it was so. 10 The First Player cast Blood Moon. And the First Player saw that the second player had no basics.

11 And then the First Player said, "At the end of turn, token." And it was so. 12 The Genesis Chamber produced a token: another myr to add to the swarm already gathering. And the First Player saw that there were no responses. 13 There was a sigh, and a facepalm - the third turn.

14 And the First Player said "I need a win condition at some point 15 so i really hope I draw a Purphoros." And it was drawn. 16 The First Player cast a Sol Ring, tapping one mountain. The blue player did not respond. 17 The First Player then cast his Purphoros 18 and again there was no response from the blue player. And the First Player blinked Norin. 19 And there were more end of turn shenanigans - the fourth turn.

20 And the First Player said "Let the board teem with artifact creatures, and let Purphoros hit you all for two each trigger."
21 So the First Player attacked with everything at the second player, and Norin Blinked. And the First Player moved to the end step. 22 The First Player giggled, "Be fruitful and increase in number, and let me get more triggers." 23 The second player scooped, the blue player had no response - the fifth turn.

24 And the First Player said "Genesis Chamber triggers moar times." And it was so. 25 The First Player reached for his myr tokens and put them onto the battlefield. 26 Then the First Player said, "I think it's time for some goblin tokens, too."

27 And the First Player cast Goblin Matron, and fetched Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.

28 Then the First Player said, "I'll cast this Mana Crypt and then Kiki-Jiki." The blue player did not respond.

29 Then the First Player said, "I'll activate Kiki targeting Matron. I'll search for Beetleback Chief. 30 He moved to the end step. The blue player didn't respond.

31 The First Player saw all that he had done, and it was very good. Norin returned to the battlefield and more myr were made - the sixth turn.

32 Thus the board was entirely one-sided. 32 The First Player attacked the blue player with everything. The blue player responded, "I scoop."

33 The First Player took a drink - the seventh turn.


Alright then, how can I replicate this? A deck list!


Q & A

Q: How the hell do you win?
A: Uh.. winning?

Q: Is this deck good?
A: Yes, it's quite powerful.

Q: Does Norin actually do anything?
A: Occasionally.

Q: What hurts your deck?
A: Torpor Orb. Humility. Stifle effects. All of them suck!

Q: What are your strongest match-ups?
A: The more colors you use, the better the match-up gets. The less basics you use, the better the match-up gets.

Q: I thought Chandra Ablaze sucked - why are you running her?
A: She is a complete beast in this deck, Jace has nothing! My favorite thing to do is use the -2 to screw with everyone's hands and refill mine.

Q: Why run Norin over any other red general?
A: Who asked you? (hint, read above)

Q: Aren't you running a couple lands too few?
A: Not at all, I have cheap artifact acceleration to go with them, so it's like running 40+ lands!

Q: What do you do if someone attacks you from the beginning?
A: Panic.

Q: Does Norin ever die?
A: Would you honestly spend valuable time trying to kill him? If you said yes, you don't belong here.

Q: What do you do if Norin dies?
A: Panic.

Q: How do you play the deck?
A: In Soviet Russia, deck plays you!

Q: What card do you want printed the most for this deck?
A: Better red draw, or more interesting enchantments.

Q: What will you do if you don't get one?
A: Panic.

Q: Is the deck fun?
A: Uh.... for me

Q: What's your favorite card in the deck?
A: Goblin Welder. So much one red can do...

Q: Advice for any new Norin players?
A: DON'T PANIC!

Q: Seriously? Anything else?
A: RTFC. Or Norin will find you.

Card Selection

Lands

You'll first notice that I run the barest minimum number of lands - you're going to be abusing mulligan rules a lot. In exchange, I'm drawing out the maximum amount of power per draw step that I can... hopefully. Every land has a function, and every land that doesn't perform a function isn't in the deck.

Here we go!
Fetchlands (Arid Mesa/Bloodstained Mire/Scalding Tarn/Wooded Foothills) are the most expensive part of the mana base, but are the most important. A lot of mono-colored decks are just fine not running fetches, either out of price issues or simply because they do not feel they are necessary. Clearly, they have not seen my style of play.

Smart play or not - I utilize fetchlands as "cheating" mechanisms. If I have a moon effect out, they are just normal mountains, and nothing is lost. If I have a valakut out, fetches turn into bolts whenever I need them. Alone, fetches enable a "do I need mana next draw or not?" playstyle. If I want to draw a land next, I will not crack the fetch. If I want business, I crack. Statistically, this is an insignificant plan, as the % chance of drawing or not drawing a land is tiny, assuming perfect randomization (something that logically can't exist) ... but I do it anyway, because I can.

Clearly, fetchlands are more than just a land drop to my twisted mind. This IS a Norin deck, after all.

Snow-Covered Mountains are the workhorse of the mana base. Being mountains, they enable the powerful Valakut burn engine. Being snow, they enable Scrying Sheets as a draw engine, giving even more utility to the mana base.

Speaking of Scrying Sheets - this is an extremely useful tool combined with Sensei's Divining Top or Widespread Panic. As long as you can control the top of your library, you can magically draw the answer. True story.

Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle gives the deck late game reach like few others can do. Once the magical number is hit, your land drops turn into bolts, and fetches turn into instant speed, nigh unstoppable removal.

Cavern of Souls is probably one of the most overpowered lands printed in recent memory. The ability to erase the threat of counterspells on your creatures is fantastic - because pretty much all of the creatures in this deck are capable of winning on their own, or at least be annoying enough to help it along. Name "Goblin" for success, "Chuck Norris" if you think humans are the way to go. Or you can just give the finger to blue mages, I don't much care. They might, but they'll be dead in a few turns anyways.

Adding to the pile of utility lands, Kher Keep functions as one of the best engines in the deck. With skullclamp, it turns into a draw engine. With Confusion in the Ranks, suddenly you can steal whatever you want at instant speed! If you've got nothing to do, there is nothing wrong with generating tokens. Drawing Warp World with a ton of 0/1s out can turn a bad game into a win.

Buried Ruin, artifact recursion! This gem does more than just tap for mana - it brings back some of the many artifacts that serve to annoy everyone. Crucible of Worlds dead? No problem!

Haunted Fengraf is a Dark Ascension addition. It provides one of the only ways to actually recur creatures in this deck, and rather handily at that. While it does have a random clause, it really doesn't matter. Anything recur-able is plenty fine by me.

Darksteel Citadel and Great Furnace are two other tricky lands. Their sole purpose - turn Confusion in the Ranks into an artifact stealing engine, too. Did i mention they tap for mana? They do that too. See how useful they are.

I need not explain Strip Mine and Wasteland. For those clueless bastards who don't know what they do - go outside and take a sledgehammer to something. That's what they do.

I do need to explain what Ghost Quarter does, though. Instead of taking a sledgehammer to something, channel your inner jackhammer and chew up your neighbors lawn. They'll be forced to replace it with fake grass. This is what Ghost Quarter does, only in the example listed your neighbors won't know it's you. Seriously, have you tried it? They won't know.

Mana-artifacts

You thought that was all the mana Norin ran? You've clearly never played this format before.

The best place to start for acceleration is the obvious place: Sol Ring. One mana. Two in return. Duh.

A far more expensive version, even if cheaper, is Mana Crypt. In a game of 40 life, there is quite literally no downside to the card. Even if you drop to low life totals, you'll never die to it's upkeep cost. Seriously. It took nearly twelve flips at one life before the game ended. I won.

Another great and cheap source of mana in the early game is Mind Stone. It's the opposite investment of Sol Ring, but given the relative efficiency of the card compared to other ramp, it's fantastic. For icing on the cake, You can use it to draw a card. This makes for a fantastic Goblin Welder engine.

Another two drop that synergizes with much of the deck is Iron Myr. Yes, the rusty myr is indeed playable, and he is extremely good in this deck. As a two drop, he's basically another Mind Stone. One that works incredibly well with Confusion in the Ranks and Skullclamp, nevermind the more creature-oriented buffs that are also omnipresent. If you're really light on mana you can even tutor for him, but this is the rare case.

Moving on to the less-obvious acceleration choices now. Honor-Worn Shaku and Springleaf Drum are two very odd cards for EDH. One of them is useless without a creature, and one has a very strange clause to increase the mana production. Thankfully, Norin the Wary provides the answers! With Norin, Honor-Worn Shaku turns into mana every turn, benefiting something like Mind's Eye. On your turn - it is two mana, making it one of the better cost -> return pieces. Springleaf Drum, as seen in old-school affinity, is great for turning tokens or free dudes into free mana - which is the same policy used here. With this in mind, I give both of these the label of Norin Engine!

But where, you might ask, are the mana doublers seen in nearly every single colored deck? As it turns out, I feel only one of them is good enough to actually play. Gauntlet of Might does exceptional things for you, and if traded away doesn't hurt in the slightest. At four mana, it's the best doubler of them all.

Non-Mana Artifacts

With a Goblin Welder in the deck - you know artifacts are a goodly theme for the rest of it. Red needs advantage, right?
Beginning with a powerful Norin Engine - Cloudstone Curio is a card that is really quite odd. Red doesn't generally care about reusing cards. They just want to blow everything up and move on. However, being able to use something like Stingscourger or Imperial Recruiter every turn makes Cloudstone Curio the best long-term engine in the deck. Be warned - players like to kill this card. Bad memories, I'd assume. Elf-filled memories. Shudder.

Genesis Chamber - This is never a bad topdeck. Genesis Chamber makes things happen for Norin. Turn one Norin -> Turn two chamber in a four player game can quickly turn to 15 power, and a dead player. While being a great source of tokens (blockers), chamber runs almost scarily well with Confusion in the Ranks or Skullclamp. You will run over games quickly with the chamber. It's a kill on sight style card.

While you're literally crapping out dudes with Genesis Chamber, why not use them to steal stuff forever? Helm of Possession turns stealing into an art form. Nice Jin-Gitaxis you've got there. Mind if i borrow it? Note - you can sacrifice Norin to this! It's not like he doesn't anything useful. Get back in your room, Norin.

Far more fun than stealing stuff is making sure it was yours to begin with. Sculpting Steel doubles up on all of your powerful artifacts and makes your opponent wish they hadn't dropped Blightsteel Colossus just yet.

Annoying, yes? We've got worse in store! This is a deck that likes to blink stuff. A lot. In fact, Norin holds the world record for number of times blinked in a second. 42, because that's the number that matters. So, how are we going to help Norin practice blinking? A mirror would work, but I think we could do better. How about a closet for that mirror? Conjurer's Closet blinks things at the end of your turn, which means you can get some serious mileage out of that solemn simulacrum, or that zealous conscripts. Out of goblins? No problem! Blink a tutor, or blink that siege-gang. All in all, this is quite possibly the best artifact in the deck!

Of course, doing useful things is great, but sometimes you need to ensure that nobody does anything! Tangle Wire can effectively silence players for long stretches of time - and because of Norin does far less damage to you than it does to anyone else. On the first cycle, you're only tapping out one effective card. Nifty, eh? If that's not enough, it's downright unfair when you cycle it with Goblin Welder. Stop untapping. Forever.

Better than annoying - Red also needs draw. For this, Norin gets to play with two incredibly broken cards. Memory Jar and Skullclamp - I choose you! Memory Jar is a crazy draw engine alongside Goblin Welder, and enables a tertiary win con of just milling everyone to death. It has been done. Skullclamp combos well with too many things to list - so I'll just leave you with a "SkullclampIsBrokenUseItOrLose" and a "YouCanClampNorin" just for fun.

But what can draw and is annoying at the same time? It can't be anything other than Teferi's Puzzle Box. With a side bonus of stopping Top Deck Tutors - the box also really annoys everyone. This instantly makes it a good card. Don't forget the draw for the turn comes first.

Another joyous little artifact we've got is Crucible of Worlds. Hopefully it's fairly obvious that this card is good, because if it's not, I'm going to tell you why it is anyways. Why? Because this is a primer, and I get to tell you stuff. Anyways, Crucible has a very unique and powerful ability in recurring lands. This means that Strip Mine you've got sitting there? It's free to dig away at an opponent's mana base. That fetchland? It's getting even more value out of it. If that weren't enough, It goes great with Buried Ruin and Haunted Fengraf, giving you a recursion engine of your own, albeit an expensive one. Crucible lets you maximize the lands you have and the filter to find them. An excellent card, but beware giving it to your opponents, as it can be just as deadly in the hands of another.

Now, of course we like recursion. Who doesn't? Well, we also like card draw. And token generation. And life gain. All in one. Trading Post is a small engine that does big things, like... say.... turn a token into a Genesis Chamber. It's no bazaar, but good Norin is it bizarre.

Since we're down to the utility, we might as well speak about Sensei's Divining Top. This is almost a requirement for decks these days, because adjusting the top three cards of your library is an absolutely insane effect. The longer the game goes on, the more powerful it will become.

Last, but certainly not least - mandatory Grave Hate. Relic of Progenitus is one of the best graveyard hate pieces to come out, and it doubles as a draw when you need it. Don't forget to use it every turn.

Creatures

The color red has the most bizarre set of creatures to ever walk the planes. You have your Manticores (evolution's little joke) and your Elementals. Barbarians and Dragons, the occasional Spirit or Beast. Maybe even a Phoenix here or there. Added to that, red does have it's strange little gremlins. Great flavor text, horrible friends - Goblins are red's primary tool for breaking things. So it makes sense when the first creatures you turn to for doing just that are goblins.

Who better to begin the swarm of goblins than the immortal himself - Squee, Goblin Nabob. For the small sum of three mana, you get an infinite blocker, clamp fodder, or whatever other nefarious purpose you can think of. It's the gift that keeps on giving, even if you'd rather shoot yourself than get it.

Although Squee doesn't swarm well, Krenko, Mob Boss does. By himself, Krenko is capable of putting tremendous amounts of goblins into play. He's a true must answer card - and he only costs four mana! Just think of all the Warstorm Surge triggers. Which, if those weren't lethal, the stench of having several dozen goblins in one spot will probably kill you anyways.

In some cases, dozens of goblins aren't enough. You only need one. A copy, in fact. Specializing in this particular brand of mischief is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. He greatly enjoys smashing mirrors, tormenting children, and long walks through the marsh. He's easily one of the best ETB-based creatures in the game, so I think he's earned a spot in this deck.

To ensure that bad stuff continues to happen, it's nice to have a clear board. Ensuring this are our removal options. For spot removal, it's hard to beat Outrage Shaman. Not only is he tutorable in four different ways, his effect is great for killing that pesky utility creatures that like to hang back. I like to think he kills his targets by yelling at them.

Another spot removal critter is Stingscourger. Although he's got echo, it's best to think of him as a fire and forget type effect. It will slow your opponents down mightily if timed correctly, and never mind the fun he does with Teferi's Puzzle Box.

But sometimes you just need to kill a lot of things. All at the same time. But you can never be quite sure what to blow up, can you? Goblin Assassin will get quarters flipping in no time, and can be stacked to absolutely remove boards from the game. He's easily the most fun anyone will have killing things.

So how can we abuse this further? Why token generators, of course! Mogg War Marshal, Siege-Gang Commander, and Beetleback Chief are capable of doing silly things with the assassin. Each guarantees up to three coin flips! The board will be wiped, make no mistake. As a plus, Siege-Gang can even chuck the goblins you wanted dead at the targets you wanted dead. Once you drive that bit of logic into your opponents, you can safely ensure victory... because if that made sense they're likely brain-dead and you can't possibly lose. ...unless that made sense to you, in which case I wish you luck.

Goblins aren't the only generators of useful tokens. While Chandra's Dead Parents aren't goblins, they wish they were. In an effort to become one, they've taken the effects of Beetleback Chief and humanized them. Now the tokens fly! If that weren't enough, those same flying tokens can be used as cannon fodder for Pie and Cake's terrible anger issues, which are thrown into things such as buildings, people, or both. Let's give a hand to Pia and Kiran Nalaar! Just don't get close to them in anything flammable.

Rounding out the package of annoyances known as goblins are two alternate removal toys. Goblin Settler, destroyer of lands. Tuktuk Scrapper, destroyer of artifacts. As one shot-effects, they are wonderful. As copies off of Kiki, they are horribly scary lock down machines.

Now then, it's time for some utility. Starting with a classic, Goblin Welder is so good, vintage decks use him! (Though considering they use Slash Panther too, it isn't saying much)

The next bit of utility is the man with the bushy beard. Some say that he loves sacrificing Myr tokens to his god, Norin. Some say he likes reviving the dead so you can go infinite. Some say he's tutor-able with Imperial Recruiter. All we know is, he's not the Stig, but the Stig's red cousin, Feldon of the Third Path.

There are dozens of tricks that the Welder can pull off. Most notable are the uses of Memory Jar, Solemn Simulacrum, and Duplicant. You can use it to take out "indestructible" things too. Just remember that Genesis Chamber makes artifacts waiting to be abused...

Speaking of artifacts - two of the best creature/artifacts in EDH also reside in this deck. As Goblin Welder is also part of the 100, it makes sense that these two would be easily abused with him. And they are. As stated, Solemn Simulacrum and Duplicant live to be abused. One ramps, one removes. Being artifacts, they also interface extremely well with Confusion in the Ranks. It's so much fun to steal stuff, did I mention that?

...which is exactly what Zealous Conscripts lives for! Adding to the tricks Norin is capable of, this little beasty steals a permanent until end of turn and untaps it. This means stealing planeswalkers, fatties, enchantments, lands, whatever. As a small, almost inconsequential side-note... it goes infinite with Kiki-Jiki. As I said, it's nearly irrelevant. Infinite combos. Pfff.

Sometimes, though, simply stealing something or wiping the board isn't enough. It's important to occasionally keep these plays from happening in the first place. Responsible for this is the always amusing Magus of the Moon. It turns expensive mana bases into fodder for laughter, as folks with too much money and little sense get their $2000 manabase destroyed by a $2 rare. If you're running red, Magus is a must.

And of course, the creatures get filter as well. The recent years have been kind to this deck, and it just wouldn't work without a bit of ugly. Rummaging Goblin gives you the power to filter like a boss... and adds another way to abuse the Immortal Squee; Bringer of Doom, Eater of Cheese.

The other non-goblin trickster is Manic Vandal. Boring, but effective. Essentially, this serves as a secondary Tuktuk Scrapper, because artifacts always need to die. 'nuff said.

However, no creature package is complete without ways to cheat them out of your library. Red is by far the most limited in regard to tutors, but the ones we do have are scarily efficient. Topping the list (and the most expensive card in here by a long-shot) is Imperial Recruiter. A $200 rare from P3K, it gets any creature in my deck sans the manticore, or gets a tutor to get out the others. A great first target for Imperial Recruiter is, as always, Kiki. Re-useable tutor every turn? Insert Evil Laughter Here. Coming up next is the goblin tutor, Goblin Matron. Having the card go directly to your hand is a bonus hard to discount. And of course, it's hard to go wrong with the old-school tutor for one of the most broken decks in its time. Goblin Recruiter sets up your next turn perfectly, provided you want to draw a goblin.

Rounding out the tutors is Moggcatcher, something that, once active, turns the game around. For 3 mana, you can instantly get a toolbox goblin and use it for whatever nefarious purpose you might have come up with. Nice general, in response to equipping I play Stingscourger from my deck. Yes, I have Teferi's Puzzle Box out.

We've gone through the fun things, but now it's time to examine one of Norin's scarier creatures. If you've ever looked at In the Web of War and thought ooh, that looks like fun you will absolutely adore Ogre Battledriver. Everybody but me! Charge! He's a haste enabler that also makes your creatures bigger. This is abusable in many ways, but the most obvious is Pandemonium or Warstorm Surge. Alternatively, you can attack with your 4/1 Norin, but considering it's the end of turn I'd like to know how you were planning on accomplishing that.

And now we get to the false god. If you liked pumping things, and you liked doing things when things entered the thing, you'll think this thing is the only thing worth thinking about.

Planeswalkers

Norin runs two planeswalkers. Daretti, Scrap Savant, and Chandra Ablaze.

Chandra has the unfortunate title of "Worst Planeswalker" due to her cost and the lack of abilities. ...Or did, until Tibalt came around. We don't talk about Tibalt here. This is, however, the best format possible for her. Her -2 is the most commonly used and perhaps the best of her abilities - hand disruption on what is technically a stick? Yeah.

Daretti is that one guy who wanted to become an Engineer, decided it sucked, became a Welder, decided that sucked too, so he became a baker. He's a draw engine, enabler, and end-game cook all in one. He's literally a melting pot. Someone change his art!

Ability by ability:

Chandra

+1: Usually used once a game, if at all unless I have a Squee in hand. There is something rewarding about throwing a screaming goblin at a Dark Confidant. What is overkill?

-2: The most used ability. As until Norin actually draws into a draw engine (sad, isn't it?) the hand is mostly empty, this is a great way to refill the hand and disrupt everyone else at the same time. Nothing screams joyous day like making your opponent pitch their carefully sculpted hand and then passing the turn. Or casting Wheel of Fortune, and THEN doing this. Or purchasing stock in a security company. Lots of it.

-7: Every time this is activated, Norin wins. It is an Ultimate, after all.

Daretti

+2: Squee Chucker (tm). Toss that dude and draw a card. If you have a crucible or a welder, you've got more good tossing options. Alternatively, you can chuck Bloodghast to confuse your opponents. Make sure none of them are judges.

-2: Goblin Welder wannabe! This can actually be stopped by removal, but only if you have no artifacts by the time they're done removing. That might be relevant at some point, but who knows.

-10: If you actually manage to fire this off, the game has probably been over for awhile. What it does is completely negate any artifact destruction, and possibly trigger any ETB effects you have. Some say when this ability is used, green decks cry.

Enchantments

At last, the core of Norin's strength. These are how Norin usually win, and how the game turns into the crazy bundle of fun known as EDH.

To begin, a card that gives 5c nightmares. Blood Moon is the best disruption available to red versus a large, large portion of decks. That's a nice Hermit Druid deck there, I think I'll completely eradicate any chance you have of winning. Also comes on a stick!
Further disrupting opponents, Planar Chaos randomly counters bombs and answers from other players. With the flip of a coin, games can be won or lost, usually in your favor. Hopefully in your favor. The odds are roughly 50:50.

Because you cannot have a true chaos deck without it, Grip of Chaos gives us MORE disruption to spot answers. Was that Fireball aimed at me? My bad. Just be careful with this and any of the next three powerhouses. It can turn on you if you're trying to spam targeted effects.

Norin, it seems, likes to blink. He doesn't do much else. So of course it makes sense that this ability would need to be abused. It doesn't get much more entertaining than good ole Pandemonium or Warstorm Surge. Whenever Norin (or another creature) enters, bam! And because it's that more amusing, with Genesis Chamber out, you get to add another bit of damage to the stack. Eventually, the board will be clear, and someone will start slowly dying. Feel the burn baby.

But there remains one more Norin Enchantment. One that strikes fear in the heart of opponents. One that makes little kids cry when they hear it's name spoken. Confusion in the Ranks is by far the best card ever printed for Chaos and Norin. It reads: At the end of every turn, steal the best creature on the field. If that creature is an eldrazi or an iona, laugh at target player. If that creature is Blue, proceed to inform your opponent that Blue Sucks, and Red is Awesome.

One of the more important aspects of EDH is the ability to search your library for an answer. Now, we can't have that. There is little more entertaining than to play Strangehold and watch nearly every deck in existence suffer. This is, of course, the whole point. That infinite turn blue deck? Gone. Toolbox.dec? Gone. Green ramp? I hope you can topdeck. It's a good way to drastically slow down your opponents until you can lay down one of the best ways for red to win.

If we want to neuter green ramp though, there stands another. Widespread Panic, apart from having the best name in the business, is a cheap way to really slow down the durdly do-nothing decks. If you're smart you can abuse it with Scrying Sheets and Teferi's Puzzle Box, which will confuse your opponents long enough to slip in another myr token.


Instants

What's a chaos deck without a little chaos? There is currently only one instant deemed worthy of the deck. It's a sad state of affairs - there are not many high-impact red instants.

It stands the test of "duh" that the card in question is Chaos Warp. This is red's tuck, and by FAR the best removal spell red has access too. While it does have a chance of backfiring, odds are whatever you removed in the first place is much worse. Note - you can use it on your own things in an emergency!

Sorceries

The biggest and most splashiest spells can be found here. Sorceries are where red's power lies - be it land destruction or mass disruption.

However, there are some smaller suspects in this group. Among them is one of the rarest things in magic - a red tutor. Gamble is a tutor with a random discard, meaning it can sometimes fail. But for one mana, I'll be okay with a little randomization. Just to keep things interesting. (Actually this card hates me, I always seem to discard the thing I tutored for unless I get Squee. It will never discard)

Another tiny toy is one of the best removal spells available to red, Aftershock. Though it costs four mana, it's one of the few things available to red that actually destroys a creature outright, which can be incredibly important.

Since card advantage is so rare in red, it's good to be able to get x for 1s. One of the best (though for artifacts only) is Shattering Spree. This one-shot wonder can completely erase the field of artifacts, except yours, of course. If you're afraid of countermagic, you can target the same thing multiple times. Just to be safe.

So these are the small timers. It's time to unveil the biggest spells we've got.

Starting with... Warp World! For 8 mana, WW completely changes the game around. For spell-heavy decks, this is a deathblow. For everyone else, profit. Pure profit. Warp World does excellently late game after you've had the chance to generate lots of tokens, and can give you a win out of what was previously a dead board.

For all the cards shown so far, none of them have swept the board. Sweepers are a huge part of EDH, as board positions can get pretty crazy. However, Norin runs exactly one; Mogg Infestation. Unlike most sweepers, Mogg Infestation is one that can be excellently cast on yourself. With a horde of tokens and a Pandemonium out, MI can one-shot someone. Don't forget even more applications with Confusion in the Ranks.

One aspect that red has been missing for years is the ability to filter through your deck. Every other color has efficient ways of doing this, with the exception of red. Red had three. Now, I don't think Orcish Librarian is exactly what we're looking for, and Control of the Court/Goblin Lore can backfire spectacularly. If you know of some others, bugger off. Now, with the printing of Dark Ascension, red finally started getting so called "looting" effects. To start, there were two: Shattered Perception and Faithless Looting. Since Shattered Perception relies on your hand to actually be full (good luck with that) it was ignored, and its cheaper counterpart looked at more closely. ...I can say with firm resolution that Faithless Looting is the best one-drop Red has gotten since Lightning Bolt. Ignore the Goblin Welder. So we have filter. Don't forget to pitch squee to it for a further bonus to drawing.

Last, but most certainly not least - our mass LD. 99% of magic players HATE Mass LD. 85% of this statistic was made up on the spot, and a further 104% of this sentence makes no sense. So, with the establishment that Gaka is a liar, and Mass LD is bad - Ruination! Wizards wanted "nonbasic" to be a drawback, just remember that. Ruination performs best in a "developed" meta - one where expensive mana bases (duals) run rampant.

And of course, the wheels. If you haven't played with them, you haven't lived. Of the three decent ones, Norin plays two- Reforge the Soul and Wheel of Fortune. Both do the same thing - everyone ditches their hand and draws a new set! Obviously among the most powerful spells in magic.


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So, turns out I did get accepted to my masters program.

Wow. I start next week.

Quote from ISBPathfinder »

I loved the chrome paint they would spray on their mouths. I found it really amusing.

It made me think of why I hate 95% of all new movies. You can tell how commercialized they are. You can watch the movie and be like "This scene serves this purpose", or "this person exists to do this". There is nothing extra. No added magic. Nothing unexplained, left to the watcher. I feel like I'm reading formulas. Mad max was different. If it was like the other movies, someone would have asked at one point what Valhalla was. Someone would have explained why they do the hand symbol. Why chrome, why the steering wheels, why they seem so eager to off themselves, who every character was.

I feel like movies cater to the dolts that need everything explained, who can't stand a movie without a happy ending, and Mad Max didn't.

I liked it cause it didn't pretend I had a type of learning disability.

I don't know what it's like in other playgroups, but when Cyclonic Rift resolves in my own group, people usually have even board states afterwards because everyone else is also running removal and uses it in response. It's a powerful spell, but it has more answers than simply countering it.

Quote from Jivanmukta »

Quote from MirageMonkey »

If red had a way to put infect on all of its burn spells that would be totally great with me.

My god....the whining would physically manifest and blot out the sun.

Then we would burn in the shade.

Why is the non-blue deck empty handed putting all of their hopes on resolving one spell while the blue deck in your example is sitting there with two cards in hand over them? You're not making a case for Force being too good you're making a case for Card Advantage being a large factor in winning the game.

How about we go the other direction, where the blue mage throws his last two cards at his opponent's spell and then his opponent just plays another equally powerful card next turn and the blue mage has nothing in hand to deal with it because he 2-1'd himself? Happens quite often in Legacy.

If he was blind then he probably didn't.

Hey wizards, take note.

I really didn't see many people complaining. Seemed like more people were happy, and tbh, this change mattered not at all for playability, whereas the reserved list has a lot of the most basic cards stuck on it. That said, a lot of the attraction to limited was the exclusivity, not 'expressing myself' like Riot said. I was thinking I would pick up one or two harrowing limiteds this year just because it's cool. They'll probably still be fairly rare, but seeing a Santa Gragas won't make me insanely jealous anymore.

Then again, that's prolly because I'll be getting it myself. Even though I have scuba gragas for max troll (worst skin ever, concept and art wise, so good), santa gragas is just so ****ing good. Nothing like a good santa gragas in the middle of the summer crushing noobs.

When there are 4+ players to worry about, the guy with kokusho, the evening star or debt to the deathless suddenly becomes unkillable without infinite combo when you eliminate commander damage.

Funny story:
I was playing with doran, the siege tower and dropped him on turn 3. My opponent armadillo cloaked him. I attacked him for 7.
"Hah! It's not lifelink! I gain the life!" he said. He took 7 and gained 7.
Two turns later, I attacked him again. "You forgot, didn't you?" He took 7 and gained 7.
The next turn I dropped rogue's passage and asked "What are you at?" "40!" he said.
"But you're at 14 commander damage right?" - His smile turned into a pretty unhappy face when he realized.

So I've been reading this thread and I have a few comments to make.

First, to introduce myself, I just recently discovered the Gatherling tournaments, and started joining them in 3.09. In the three tournaments that have happened since then, I have finished in the money (er, the "credits") each time. Technically, I am actually the Season 3 Champion, though that title doesn't mean much because a number of important people couldn't or didn't play, and also because the final tournament was a completely different format (STD Commander).

Anyway, I am not going to take a side in this debate (at least not in this post) but I have a few relevant comments.

1) 3drinks: without taking sides, I will say that these guys are making some good points, and you would do well to take them a bit more seriously. You can disagree and that is cool, but these points are actually quite well argued and they are well worth thinking seriously about.

2) Other folks: you are advised (and encouraged) to try out 3drinks' format before jumping to conclusions about it. I am not saying he has everything perfect; there is definitely room for disagreement! But if you play, and recruit your friends to play, you will discover one of two things. Either (a) the format works fine, even if you don't like all the rules, and the games are balanced and decently enjoyable; or (b) the format only LOOKS fine, and only a lack of numbers (especially serious players) has kept it from falling apart, because the messed-up banned list and the lack of countermagic mean that certain strategies are now not held "in check", and the disruption to the ecosystem from removing counters does actually lead to an overabundance of, e.g., combo decks or what have you. There is only one way to find out! The tourneys are free to enter and there's money to be won. So bring your Animar combo or whatever and let's rock! We'll be waiting...

3) 3drinks: There is something you have been saying for a while and you need to STOP, because it is wrong, and also kind of offensive. Actually it's several somethings, but they are related. Basically, I have noticed that there have been several times, both on these threads and on in-game chat, that you have characterized certain kinds of strategies as "trolling" or "hurr durr fapping". I will try to explain why I think these descriptions are wrong-headed.

Let's talk about the second one first. For one thing, the fapping analogy is kind of gross, and does nothing to win people over to your thinking. But more importantly, the "hurr durr counter counter counter" parody paints a very one-dimensional picture of the thing you have tried to criticize. Control decks, based on counterspells or not, are much more nuanced than this cartoon picture. Speaking this way is just as short-sighted as referring to all creature-based decks as "hurr durr, I play creatures and attack, hurr durr durr." Painting a one-dimensional picture of a target, only to tear it down, is a form of straw-manning, and you know better (or ought to know better) than to stoop to this.

Saying that control games degenerate into who has the most counters is about as silly as saying that games between other decks degenerate into who has the most creatures. Magic is a lot more complex than this, I'm sure you will agree. Speaking about control in this one-dimensional way is like treating all conservative Americans as backward bible-thumping hicks or all liberal Americans as soft tree-hugging socialists or whatever. Let's stick to discussing things as they are, not cartoon versions of them. (I guess cartoons are actually two-dimensional, not one-dimensional, but whatever...)


Now about the "trolling". This is even worse. It is offensive to me, and just generally mistaken, to talk about these strategies as trolling. It is so short-sighted because it assumes that other people are motivated by exactly the same things as you, and fails to consider that different people are different and are motivated by different things. What I mean is, your mindset seems to be: "I would never play this kind of strategy unless I wanted to annoy somebody; therefore, *everyone* who plays this kind of strategy must be doing it to annoy somebody." This is wrong on so many levels and I *HAVE* to insist you stop reasoning this way. Because maybe, just maybe, people play with countermagic because they actually *gasp* want to stop threats from running them over! I don't know about you, but I don't like it when my opponent resolves Tooth and Nail, or Army of the Damned, or a Sun Titan that generates value even when I Doom Blade it. A player may like to play counterspells because they are good at stopping threats--because they don't want their opponent to run roughshod all over them with nasty spells. To presume someone is doing it just to annoy you personally is the height of arrogance. It assumes that someone actually gives a crap what you (as their opponent) are feeling, instead of just doing what they think they need to do to execute their own game plan and win.

I like to play counterspells because they make me feel "safe". I like knowing, or at least having reasonable confidence, that my opponent isn't going to do anything nasty to destroy me on their turn. THIS IS NOT TROLLING! This is a sensible countermeasure (literally) to the threat of the opponent utterly having their way with me.

You have similarly characterized certain non-counterspell decks of mine, like Mono-Red land destruction and aggro-tempo/prison (KotCM) as "trolling", and I take deep offense to this. Did it ever occur to you that maybe I just don't want my opponent to kill me with Uril? That maybe I don't want to let my opponent build 8 mana unmolested so they can squash me with Maelstrom Wanderer? (Speaking of Uril, that's a "herpderp Creature, Aura... hurrdurr" strategy if I ever saw one.) I'm not playing mana denial or counters or discard or Time Warps because I'm trying to prevent you from having fun, or whatever. I'm playing them because I want to win, and I don't *care* particularly much whether you have fun. It's not my JOB, as your opponent, to make sure you are entertained. It is my job to do the best that I can with the budget I have to entertain myself and win if it's possible to do so.

So stop calling these strategies trolling. Players have plenty of legitimate reasons for running this type of stuff that have nothing to do one way or the other with their opponents' personal feelings on the matter. Was Jon Finkel just a "troll" when he played Forbidian? Was Randy Buehler just jerking his opponent's chain when he played CMU Blue? How about Budde? Wafo-Tapa? Weissman?


Sorry to go on such a rant about this, especially since it's kind of tangential to the main discussion. But this isn't just about an offhand throwaway comment made one time, it's about something *repeatedly* stated, in this thread and other places, and each time, it really grinds my gears.