This deck is can win games with quick aggression but also can slug it out in the late game. Liliana + Nyxathid is a powerful combination. Obvious good cards include dark confidant in a deck where nothing costs more than 3 (shatterstorm in the sb for affinity is cmc 4). Deathrite shaman makes good use of the cards you force you opponent to dump into the yard. With Multiple Deathrite shaman in play you can start to hit creatures in the graveyard.
I don't play fetch lands because I don't want to reduce my chance of hitting a land drop and therefore not being able to use a raven's crime in the yard. With Bob 24 lands doesn't seem like too many but you maybe want to go to 23.
In really long grindy games Bloodchief ascension is a true winner. Every raven's crime includes a 4 life swing.
Life lose isn't a huge concern with deathrite shaman + ascension + sword of light and shadow.
Duress in the sideboard could be changed to Despise seeing as resolved creatures tend to be a bigger problem than resolved non-creature spells.
[CARD]Sword of Light and shadow
[/CARD] Feels slightly Win-More, You have enough removal that Confidant should never kill you, so the life gain isn't necessary.
Fulminator Mage Should be in the sideboard but I don't have any. (-1 duress -1 Shatterstorm and -1 Bloodchief/Doom Blade). Sword of light and shadow would allow you to sacrifice him multiple times.
Match ups so far.
Decks like Mono Blue tron and American control quickly fold if they can't counter your discard early. Active wurmcoil engines aren't too bad especially if you have a lily or beefy Nyxathid (That you're willing to lose) in play.
Splintertwin/Pod decks require you to outplay your opponent by knowing what cards to hit with thoughtseize/duress and then just playing enough discard to keep them on the back foot while letting your removal clean up their creatures. Deathrite shaman takes care of creatures in the graveyard.
Aggro decks are a real pain game one. Affinity is manageable game 2/3 with pyroclasm and shatterstorm. GW Aura is very difficult because the combination of totem armors with toughnesses greater than 2 can quickly put their creatures out of reach of pyroclasm leaving Lily and Keeper to take care of the hex proof creatures. If you're on the play you can at least occasionally thoughtseize a creature from their hand turn one.
Storm so far has been a joke because no one can deal with the discard suite. Ditching starting hands for ones that are discard heavy is probably a good idea.
From the list you've posted, I would change the following:
-2 Karn Liberated
-1 Treasure Mage
+2 Snapcaster Mage
+1 Oblivion Stone
Basically, I just recommend to anyone who's starting with the deck to play the stock list at least for a while. I believe it's better to get some practice before making changes.
I played the stock list for awhile. Then I decided to change it. The one times oblivion stone main deck just doesn't seem good to me. You just get it randomly sometimes and its not always good. I know you can pitch it for thirst but still I just never liked them main deck.
I'll just re-post what I said on the UW Tron thread:
Seriously, do not play Karn. He's awesome on RG Tron because that deck is basically a combo deck. It can go insane with turn 3 Tron into Karn - it doesn't even care about what the opponent is doing during the first turns (much like a pure combo deck).
A Karn on turn 6+ is still a good card, but not nearly as awesome as a turn 3 one. That's specially true versus anything that applies pressure during the first five turns as you'll probably be dead with a Karn on the battlefield when you pass the turn.
Blue-based Tron wants to stabilise and survive. That's why Repeal and Remand are staples of these decks.
I know the temptation to play a colorless, 7 mana, powerful Planeswalker is hard to resist. It fits so well! But put Timmy aside, let him speaking alone and listen to Spike. Play the efficient cheap spells that will lead you to inevitability.
If you want to play Green, Gifts + Loam is too good to pass. A pile with Mindslaver, Academy Ruins, Tron piece X, Life from the Loam is a win on the spot (unless you're about to die next turn :P).
if you have enough mana to reliably pump that guy so that he is doing damage you should be using mindslaver to win the game. You have to invest mana in that guy repeatedly, he isn't tutorable and doesn't have a big board presence when he comes into play. Wurmcoil engine, plat angel, sundering titan, all of them do something big just be being in play.
The question is more if Karn is better than something which can be tutored for
Karns biggest upside by far is that he can deal with resolved stuff which is generally very hard for this deck.
His downside is - not being tutorable, not being recurable, not being TfK'able (yes, I've had hands with a Wurmcoil and my drawsteps were Wurmcoil, Titan, Land, Angel in which case I want to discard one of the fatties :P).
I wanted to try him out myself, but I'm really not sure he's worth it as a non-artifact.
On a last note it's WAY easier to protect a guy from PtE (in case of Wurmcoil thats the only thing that even matters) than protecting a PW from some 2/2s or so
Of course then Karn does at least gain some life, but there are some MUs where I'd never ever want Karn (Domain Zoo and Gruul Zoo being the main offenders) in place of a Wurm or O. Stone for example ( and we can'T just run 8 or 9 tron-dependant guys).
Between the wurmcoils, platinum angel, slavers, and titan I have enough things which can be tutored. I think Karn is great because he can remove things blue can only bounce "artifacts, enchantments, lands". Karn just give you a lot of options in a deck that already has a lot of options and card draw.
If you can really just try the 2x karn out for yourselves.
My list runs 2x Chalice of the Void on the board. I set it to 4 against blue Scapeshift and they generally have to concede - it hits their Scapeshift and their bounce spell. Of course you do have to survive to 8 mana and play around their counters. It's also useful on the play against aggro and burn.
I will be running Spellskites when I get them...right now I'm alternately using Pithing Needles and some combo of Trickbind and Squelch.
Why are you running 2 Karn Liberated? He seems unnecessary, the only situations where I would think he would be very useful are when you should already win anyway.
I'm don't have any spellskite sorry !. I didn't play scapeshift. I feel as though the deck doesn't have enough threats without the karns. I've had too many games were I wouldn't be able to produce enough threats without him. Karn is definitely not a "Win-More" card. He is just a win condition. Yes you have to protect him but you also have to protect all of your creatures from stuff like path aswell. I didn't have any games where I said to myself "I wish I didn't have this worthless karn in my hand!".
Went 4-2 at a tournament today. I lost to a lotus cobraKhalni Heart Expedition valakut deck. Game 1 he got a turn three primeval titan when I had no counters and it just beat me to death. Game three he hit my platinum angel for 6 and then hit me for 21 with valakuts. The other loss was versus infect. Game one apostle's blessing let him evade my blocking treasure mage. Game 2 apostle's blessing stopped my dismember and he killed me in three turns. I added 2 more spell pierce to my side board because of that game.
I cut squelch (some people say 4 is too much but this card is REALLY good) and a third relic to put in the 2 additional spell pierces. I feel like they're needed to survive vs infect/boggle.
blood moon isn't bad at all the deck doesn't need urza tron to win. Often vs moon effects one island or talisman is enough and treasure mage into a threat is often good enough vs most decks that would run moon effects.
The original list had it. I believe it's there to increase your chances of naturally drawing one instead of depending solely on Treasure Mage. It can be pitched to TfK, so shouldn't be a problem.
That said, I like more Repeal. But I believe I would cut a Solemn first.
Why are some of you guys running 2 mindslaver? I cut one in favor for a fourth repeal and haven't looked back since. I just feel like there isn't much need for two as long as you're careful about not exposing yours to graveyard hate.
Hey what do you guys think about playing telling time instead of thirst for knowledge? still digs 3 cards you just can't get artifacts back from the yard with academy ruins. But something that goes to the bottom of the library might get shuffled to the top whether that's good or bad depends on the situation. Doesn't let you completely chuck 2 cards you won't be wanting but how often do you want to do that except maybe g1 before you sideboard.
EDIT:
Also how do you guys feel about Boseiju, Who Shelters All in the sideboard? I think it would be nice if you're going against a deck where you want to through the breach but fear counters.
Into the Roil also requires two blue mana to bounce and cantrip. Repeal always requires only one blue mana, which can be pretty important in a deck that runs 13+ colourless lands (12 UrzaTron pieces, 1 Eye of Ugin).
Also, if you're having trouble with Exarch Twin, Repeal with X = 3 cannot be redirected by Spellskite, while Into the Roil can. They need to Dispel Repeal or they're losing Splinter Twin.
Oh wow thanks didn't think about that one. Also yeah the 2 blue is another requirement but so far I haven't had trouble hitting it maybe i'm getting lucky? Seems pretty consistently doable for now.
I'm really favoring into the roil over repeal. A lot of the time I'm paying atleast 3 mana for x in repeal so it's basically into the roil with the kicker on it. INTR is also a lot easier for taking care of big threats and you can always forgo the kicker if mana is limited.
Green and red have been giving me the most trouble so I think that flashfreeze in the board makes sense just gotta figure out how many.
Lately I've been trying out BR vampires because I REALLY want the deck to be good in competitive modern but it just isn't consistently good enough for me.
I've be running
Please keep in mind I far and way from the best deck builder.
I wanted to run a low curve aggro deck that also has enough disruption and removal to be a contender. To me it feels like vamps don't have good enough 2 drops. Bloodghast is good but the other choices all leave something to be desired. Kalastria highborne isn't very aggro although she is great late game. Stromkirk noble has been a very underwhelming one drop because it seems like far too often I am afraid to attack with it because it starts as a 1/1.
Do vampires need a third lord? Am I just running a sub optimal list? (Besides lands I am working on those). I tried running thought seize over IoK but I didn't notice a significant power shift. I really think that the creatures themselves are the problem with the deck.
Do I need to go the way of bigger zoo and increase the mana curve with cards like Oliva voldaren and vampire nocturnus?
4 Dark Confidant
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nyxathid
Planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil
Instants/Sorceries
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Disfigure
4 Raven's Crime
2 Thoughtseize
4 Blightning
2 Blood Crypt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
13 Swamp
4 Dragonskull Summit
1 Mountain
Equipment
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Duress
2 Doom Blade
3 Pyroclasm
2 Torpor Orb
3 Shatterstorm
2 Bloodchief Ascension
Ideally my sideboard would look like
This deck is can win games with quick aggression but also can slug it out in the late game. Liliana + Nyxathid is a powerful combination. Obvious good cards include dark confidant in a deck where nothing costs more than 3 (shatterstorm in the sb for affinity is cmc 4). Deathrite shaman makes good use of the cards you force you opponent to dump into the yard. With Multiple Deathrite shaman in play you can start to hit creatures in the graveyard.
I don't play fetch lands because I don't want to reduce my chance of hitting a land drop and therefore not being able to use a raven's crime in the yard. With Bob 24 lands doesn't seem like too many but you maybe want to go to 23.
In really long grindy games Bloodchief ascension is a true winner. Every raven's crime includes a 4 life swing.
Life lose isn't a huge concern with deathrite shaman + ascension + sword of light and shadow.
Duress in the sideboard could be changed to Despise seeing as resolved creatures tend to be a bigger problem than resolved non-creature spells.
[CARD]Sword of Light and shadow
[/CARD] Feels slightly Win-More, You have enough removal that Confidant should never kill you, so the life gain isn't necessary.
Another potential sideboard card is Slaughter games
Fulminator Mage Should be in the sideboard but I don't have any. (-1 duress -1 Shatterstorm and -1 Bloodchief/Doom Blade). Sword of light and shadow would allow you to sacrifice him multiple times.
Match ups so far.
Decks like Mono Blue tron and American control quickly fold if they can't counter your discard early. Active wurmcoil engines aren't too bad especially if you have a lily or beefy Nyxathid (That you're willing to lose) in play.
Splintertwin/Pod decks require you to outplay your opponent by knowing what cards to hit with thoughtseize/duress and then just playing enough discard to keep them on the back foot while letting your removal clean up their creatures. Deathrite shaman takes care of creatures in the graveyard.
Aggro decks are a real pain game one. Affinity is manageable game 2/3 with pyroclasm and shatterstorm. GW Aura is very difficult because the combination of totem armors with toughnesses greater than 2 can quickly put their creatures out of reach of pyroclasm leaving Lily and Keeper to take care of the hex proof creatures. If you're on the play you can at least occasionally thoughtseize a creature from their hand turn one.
Storm so far has been a joke because no one can deal with the discard suite. Ditching starting hands for ones that are discard heavy is probably a good idea.
I played the stock list for awhile. Then I decided to change it. The one times oblivion stone main deck just doesn't seem good to me. You just get it randomly sometimes and its not always good. I know you can pitch it for thirst but still I just never liked them main deck.
what would you have me replace him with then?
Between the wurmcoils, platinum angel, slavers, and titan I have enough things which can be tutored. I think Karn is great because he can remove things blue can only bounce "artifacts, enchantments, lands". Karn just give you a lot of options in a deck that already has a lot of options and card draw.
If you can really just try the 2x karn out for yourselves.
I'm don't have any spellskite sorry !. I didn't play scapeshift. I feel as though the deck doesn't have enough threats without the karns. I've had too many games were I wouldn't be able to produce enough threats without him. Karn is definitely not a "Win-More" card. He is just a win condition. Yes you have to protect him but you also have to protect all of your creatures from stuff like path aswell. I didn't have any games where I said to myself "I wish I didn't have this worthless karn in my hand!".
Sideboard
I cut squelch (some people say 4 is too much but this card is REALLY good) and a third relic to put in the 2 additional spell pierces. I feel like they're needed to survive vs infect/boggle.
I like that idea I'm going to try that.
EDIT:
Also how do you guys feel about Boseiju, Who Shelters All in the sideboard? I think it would be nice if you're going against a deck where you want to through the breach but fear counters.
Oh wow thanks didn't think about that one. Also yeah the 2 blue is another requirement but so far I haven't had trouble hitting it maybe i'm getting lucky? Seems pretty consistently doable for now.
Green and red have been giving me the most trouble so I think that flashfreeze in the board makes sense just gotta figure out how many.
I've be running
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Kalastria Highborn
4 Captivating Vampire
4 Stromkirk Captain
4 Bloodghast
3 Blightning
4 Lightning Bolt
10 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Blood Crypt
2 Mountain
3 Terminate
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Ancient Grudge
Please keep in mind I far and way from the best deck builder.
I wanted to run a low curve aggro deck that also has enough disruption and removal to be a contender. To me it feels like vamps don't have good enough 2 drops. Bloodghast is good but the other choices all leave something to be desired. Kalastria highborne isn't very aggro although she is great late game. Stromkirk noble has been a very underwhelming one drop because it seems like far too often I am afraid to attack with it because it starts as a 1/1.
Do vampires need a third lord? Am I just running a sub optimal list? (Besides lands I am working on those). I tried running thought seize over IoK but I didn't notice a significant power shift. I really think that the creatures themselves are the problem with the deck.
Do I need to go the way of bigger zoo and increase the mana curve with cards like Oliva voldaren and vampire nocturnus?