I'd say as the deck has gotten more aggressive, Mangara's role has changed a bit. He used to be our main compliment to the Port/Wasteland suite by making opponents need more lands to play their things. With Thalia filling that role Mangara is free to pursue other interests, such as planeswalkers and troublesome creatures, and it also means he can wait to come down later in the game. Like Finn said, Mangara is our guaranteed inevitability. After our hands have been exhausted, after it's topdeck vs topdeck and your opponent is still at 17 life, Mangara is what we want to draw.
People who are uncomfortable with this situation try to make the build more aggressive to compensate, but even with huge beaters like B-Skull and Crusader I find my self in this pickle often enough. It's easier to be aggressive now, yes, but it really pays to be able to play the long game. Try playing older lists with Goldmeadow Harrier and Grunt and see how you like Mangara then.
Also pqrqcf, I didn't realize there was another Syracuse area person on the thread.
I wouldn't say I'm syracuse area... I live in Camden, so it's an hour drive to Syracuse. x.x
I haven't tried Celestial Flare yet, but I got my two copies of Council's Judgment and they came in handy this week. With the list I posted above, except SoFaI is Batterskull and Wing Shards are CJ, I came in second place. The only two matches I lost were to TES played by Bryant Cook. First during Swiss, and then again in the final. My matches were a lot different this time, I played Affinity (White with SFM and Jitte), RIP/Helm, TES, Reanimator, and Landstill (Yes, Landstill)
Akeleth, I got a little tunnel-visioned last week, so I only sided what was in my sideboard for each specific deck. I didn't make that mistake this week, and CJ went in vs almost everything. I only used it once, to take out an Etched Champion. I was off my game last week with a cold, so that's gonna be my excuse. ^^
Unfortunately, I'm not sure when I'm going back. If my work schedule goes back to normal, I'll never see another Thursday off...
EDIT: On the Karakas discussion, I'd warrant that it's highly beneficial to keep at least 3, if not the whole playset, not only for the combo matchup, but as an extra measure to protect Thalia. Thalia with Port is a tough lock to get out of, and if you don't have a Mom or Karakas, they can just bolt/stp/decay her away.
So I finally got to take DnT to an actual event (Thursday Night Legacy at PTGRTS in Syracuse, NY), for the first time in like three years. My list was missing B-Skull because USPS failed me. I supplemented it with SoFaI, which came in handy because there was a lot of blue (My matches were Affinity, RUG Delver, WUR Stoneblade?, WUR Miracles), but I very much think Batterskull would have made my games go more smoothly. I went 2-2.
Round 1: Affinity (1-2)
Let's just say I didn't realize how tough Affinity was for DnT until this match. This is my affinity deck I was letting my friend play because I didn't want to go to the tourney alone. The colorless creatures, especially Etched Champion, are a huge problem.
G1: I got a slow start, facing down Ornithopter and some artifacts + Cranial Plating. Managed to stabilize at low life, started popping things off with Jitte, he got in a Thoughtcast or two and then dropped Arcbound Ravager + Etched Champion. THIS combination is very frustrating, as it makes Jitte's job so much harder. Two counters on Jitte were not enough to take out Champion, thanks to Ravager, and he equipped CP for the win.
Side out: 1x Mom, 2x Mangara | Side in: 2x Tutor, 1x Stony Silence
G2: I got Jitte active ASAP. He let me StP his Ravager for lifegain, so I was able to clear his feild with Jitte, including Etched Champion, then swung 12 with Mirran Crusader.
G3: Another satisfying loss to Etched Champion at more than two toughness.
Round 2: RUG Delver (2-1)
I'll be honest, I don't remember much about the games, but I do know I won this match.
G1: He went into aggro mode with not one, not two, but THREE Nimble Mongoose all at threshold. Kept me off of creatures with his counter-burn suite.
Side out: 2x Mangara, 3x Phyrexian Revoker | Side in: 2x Tutor, 1x Chalice of the Void, 2x Rest in Peace
G2: I managed to stabilize at low life, he was desperately looking for a burn spell or two. He flipped Delver with a Spell Pierce. I had four mana, top-decked Chalice. That sealed the game for me.
G3: T1 Vial, T2 Wasteland, T3 Port - Thalia. Stoneforge fetched the burn-draw sword, gg.
Round 3: WUR Stoneblade/Delver? (2-1)
I wasn't exactly sure what I was playing here. I'm calling it WUR Stoneblade because it played Stoneforge/B-Skull and True-Name, but it also had Delver and burn and Wastes in it.
G1: Game one was rough. We were both trading back and forth, but he managed to get through too many times with Batterskull.
Side out: 2x Mangara of Corondor, 1x Serra Avenger | Side in: 2x Tutor, 1x Chalice
G2: T1 Vial, T2 Wasteland, T3 Port + Thalia. Tempo doesn't like this combination... This was the game I saw True-Name Nemesis for the first time. Managed to out-race with Crusader.
Side out: Don't recall | Side in: 2x Wing Shards (was supposed to be Council's Judgment)
G3: Got an early Chalice of the Void through. Fending off Batterskull with Mirran Crusader was great and bought me time to draw Wing Shards. I swung with Crusader and put him in fatal range. He played a Ponder then attacked. I had Wing Shards (two copies because of Ponder). Funny thing is, he made sure he had the counter in case I tried something, but he only had the one counter, so... I took him out the next turn.
Round 4: WUR Miracles (1-2)
This is the match I'm most ashamed of. He sided in Sulfur Elemental G2, and I didn't immediately think "Hey, Wilt-Leaf can take care of that no problem." In fact, I didn't think of that until the drive home as I was dropping my friend off. Anyway:
G1: It was a long game, I had him down to striking range with Jitte + Mirran Crusader. He cast Jace, bounced. I cast Mirran, he drew, bounced. I cast Mirran, he drew, sacrificed Jace to bounce. I cast Mirran Crusader, passed, then swung for the win.
No side, big mistake.
G2: Sulfur Elemental. I managed to get rid of it, but at one point I was down to just a Mangara equipped with Jitte AND SoFaI. I managed to connect just once before he got Tear (Wear/Tear) on my Jitte. Aggro with another Sulfur Elemental and V-Clique sealed the game. (StP hit Mangara)
G3: T1 Vial, T2 Port, T3 Thalia + Revoker on SdT. It's worth noting that Counterbalance was not great in this match, as he was frequently tapping out to deal with my creatures. He definitely doesn't play Miracles like I would. Anyway, Sulfur Elemental came down and he was able to protect it. I was racing with Serra Avenger, but he had V-Clique again. I would bounce it with Karakas to swing through, so he had my hand at his mercy. The match was over with a minute left on the clock.
I commend him for playing to win and playing quickly. He said, and I quote, "I hate Death and Taxes, it's my worst match-up." I think he just needs some more practice with the deck. Then again, I need more practice, too. But cut me some slack, I was sick and sitting was uncomfortable for me because of a bruise from falling down a flight of stairs. I'm going back next week for what is probably my last tourney in a while (Work normally has me on Thursdays and that's the only T1.5 in the area that I know of)
Wing Shards came through for me in the one match I sided it in for. It seems more powerful than Celestial Flare, and easier to get through counters than Council's Judgment, so I'm wondering why people aren't running it at all. Everyone was quick to jump on Council's Judgment when it was released, so I don't see the "costs an extra mana" argument to be all that valid. I've had this card sitting around since I built the deck in 2010, when it was SB tech vs Progenitus-Bant, where it saved my life more than once. (Of course, that was when Goldmeadow Harrier was in the main and Burrenton Forge-Tender was in the side... weird place for the deck.) Did anybody try this card before choosing Celestial Flare? I might try to go back and find that discussion, if anyone can point me in the right direction.
I'm a little weirded out seeing Mangaras in the side. Against a lot of decks, he has merit G1 but then loses out when the opponent potentially sides in more removal or more specifically -1/-1 effects. Basically, any deck with Swamps he's useful G1 but then gets sided out.
I just played a match on Cockatrice vs Scapewish. I really didn't know what it was and assumed it was a red-variant Nic-Fit, which helped a lot but didn't quite get me the match.
G1, I ended up beating him down with just a Flickerwisp and a Revoker (naming deed): We both made it to top-deck mode, but he was around 30 life off of Thragtusks and Baloths. I ended up stabilizing a Mangara and managed to keep him off a threat while I took him down in like 6-7 turns of beating face. He revealed the Deed as his only card in hand.
G2, I was in a favorable position, but he Scapeshift combo'd for game. (Took me by surprise)
G3, I was beating him down with Mirran Crusader + Jitte. He was down to 3 life and then he TOP DECKED the Scapeshift for game.
He was running Punishing/Grove, which doesn't support your statement, but it could be an even more fringe list or a sub-optimal build. The best tool vs it is to StP the Explorers, in my opinion. Keeping him off lands is key. Other than that, I'd say racing him is the next line of action, but it's fairly difficult because he plays BIG creatures that also gain him life. IF you see a lot of ScapeWish, it might be a good idea to pack some Cataclysms, but you'd only be in a good position to use it if you have a way to deal with any 5/3s or 4/4s on his side of the field afterward.
I'm trying out SotL right now in the side and in the 5-6 games I've played, I haven't casted her. She seems great especially off a Vial, and she's probably necessary vs Elves, but I'm not even sure I'd try siding the two copies I run in vs BUG or RUG decks, with all their removal + Goyf getting +2/+2 when she hits the grave.
I also finally broke down and I'm trying Mirran Crusader as a 2x, and I'm liking his huge offensive presence. Nothing really to complain about. At its absolute worst, it blocks Goyf all day. I haven't really played competitively since Revoker came out, so it's nice to see the tons of strong additions that have come about.
This reminds me of the casual games in my high school (circa 2007). The rules were drop every land in your opening hand, and draw three when you have no cards in hand. I had tuned my decks to play within tournament rules" so naturally it was a little discouraging to be facing thousands of saprolings when all I did was gain a few life.
I hope you find something to give them perspective. I stopped playing in high school, and I was super relieved when I found most people don't play with insane house rules. (Especially since the g game is already PLENTY breakable using the rules in place)
Gotcha. I guess it makes sense, given the exact wording, but it's similar to other cards like Kazandu Blademaster. But I suppose I can always just use him.
My main question is whether or not a creature with a +1/+1 counter on it is still alive after activating Mirror Entity with x=0.
If it does, could one theoretically use the combo with Reveillark and crew to pump a creature with Evolve to monumental proportions by activating Mirror Entity repeatedly every time Evolve triggers, but before it resolves?
For reference, the Mirror Entity combo consists of:
Looks inspired by Standard's Aristocrats. It's pretty resilient in Standard, considering control decks play six board wipes in that format. I think I'd prefer to play with StP over either Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy though. Having an out to Confidant in Cartel Aristocrat is nice. The deck looks balanced, but not particularly powerful.
Cockatrice name: pqrqcf
Formats: Legacy, Modern, Standard, EDH
Decks: I'll sleeve up anything just to try it. I mostly play legacy, it's my favorite format, but I'm helping my friend test Standard and I'm a casual Modern player. My most played deck is DnT, but like I said I will and do play almost anything.
Times on: Sporadically, but usually on Wed-Thurs afternoons, EST.
Servers I play on: play.woogerworks.com, 66.221.254.87
The card that annoys me the most is Ad Nauseum. Really, Storm Combo is annoying to play against. I don't mind SDT/Terminus so much. It's fun to play, so I can't complain playing against it. Storm is just one really long turn in which one person will win at the end, luck dictating which person it is.
I have Enchantress, Death and Taxes, and Affinity built on paper. The only deck I never get tired of playing is DnT, so I don't feel like buying another expensive land base right now.
I'm ready, and also willing to play in an extra round if need be.
I'd rather get the tourney going sooner than later, because we don't know how long Woogerworks will be around. And if it gains popularity, it could become unstable, considering how Cockatrice.de itself had issues with overcrowding.
Have you considered Illusory Angel as a straight up flying beater? It's great to play off a Cloud of Faeries and enables Cloudfin Raptor to grow much bigger.
I've always liked ESG as a two of. The odd first turn Enchantress is great, but I feel like there's added utility mid-game, too. Playing a Wild Growth without tapping lands is a good move on turns 3-5, and stealth Daze maneuvers are just an added bonus. Also, you can bluff being tapped out and then search for something with Sterling Grove, which can catch them off guard. GWr Enchantress is green centric enough that you'll want G anyway, so ESG wins over Lotus Petal in my opinion. And you can filter that G by playing Utopia Sprawl, so it's not a big deal anyway.
People who are uncomfortable with this situation try to make the build more aggressive to compensate, but even with huge beaters like B-Skull and Crusader I find my self in this pickle often enough. It's easier to be aggressive now, yes, but it really pays to be able to play the long game. Try playing older lists with Goldmeadow Harrier and Grunt and see how you like Mangara then.
I haven't tried Celestial Flare yet, but I got my two copies of Council's Judgment and they came in handy this week. With the list I posted above, except SoFaI is Batterskull and Wing Shards are CJ, I came in second place. The only two matches I lost were to TES played by Bryant Cook. First during Swiss, and then again in the final. My matches were a lot different this time, I played Affinity (White with SFM and Jitte), RIP/Helm, TES, Reanimator, and Landstill (Yes, Landstill)
Akeleth, I got a little tunnel-visioned last week, so I only sided what was in my sideboard for each specific deck. I didn't make that mistake this week, and CJ went in vs almost everything. I only used it once, to take out an Etched Champion. I was off my game last week with a cold, so that's gonna be my excuse. ^^
Unfortunately, I'm not sure when I'm going back. If my work schedule goes back to normal, I'll never see another Thursday off...
EDIT: On the Karakas discussion, I'd warrant that it's highly beneficial to keep at least 3, if not the whole playset, not only for the combo matchup, but as an extra measure to protect Thalia. Thalia with Port is a tough lock to get out of, and if you don't have a Mom or Karakas, they can just bolt/stp/decay her away.
My list:
4x Flickerwisp
2x Mangara of Corondor
2x Mirran Crusader
4x Mother of Runes
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Swords to Plowshares
Land:
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Karakas
10x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
Artifact:
4x AEther Vial
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Chalice of the Void
2x Wing Shards
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Rest in Peace
1x Stony Silence
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
Round 1: Affinity (1-2)
Let's just say I didn't realize how tough Affinity was for DnT until this match. This is my affinity deck I was letting my friend play because I didn't want to go to the tourney alone. The colorless creatures, especially Etched Champion, are a huge problem.
G1: I got a slow start, facing down Ornithopter and some artifacts + Cranial Plating. Managed to stabilize at low life, started popping things off with Jitte, he got in a Thoughtcast or two and then dropped Arcbound Ravager + Etched Champion. THIS combination is very frustrating, as it makes Jitte's job so much harder. Two counters on Jitte were not enough to take out Champion, thanks to Ravager, and he equipped CP for the win.
Side out: 1x Mom, 2x Mangara | Side in: 2x Tutor, 1x Stony Silence
G2: I got Jitte active ASAP. He let me StP his Ravager for lifegain, so I was able to clear his feild with Jitte, including Etched Champion, then swung 12 with Mirran Crusader.
G3: Another satisfying loss to Etched Champion at more than two toughness.
Round 2: RUG Delver (2-1)
I'll be honest, I don't remember much about the games, but I do know I won this match.
G1: He went into aggro mode with not one, not two, but THREE Nimble Mongoose all at threshold. Kept me off of creatures with his counter-burn suite.
Side out: 2x Mangara, 3x Phyrexian Revoker | Side in: 2x Tutor, 1x Chalice of the Void, 2x Rest in Peace
G2: I managed to stabilize at low life, he was desperately looking for a burn spell or two. He flipped Delver with a Spell Pierce. I had four mana, top-decked Chalice. That sealed the game for me.
G3: T1 Vial, T2 Wasteland, T3 Port - Thalia. Stoneforge fetched the burn-draw sword, gg.
Round 3: WUR Stoneblade/Delver? (2-1)
I wasn't exactly sure what I was playing here. I'm calling it WUR Stoneblade because it played Stoneforge/B-Skull and True-Name, but it also had Delver and burn and Wastes in it.
G1: Game one was rough. We were both trading back and forth, but he managed to get through too many times with Batterskull.
Side out: 2x Mangara of Corondor, 1x Serra Avenger | Side in: 2x Tutor, 1x Chalice
G2: T1 Vial, T2 Wasteland, T3 Port + Thalia. Tempo doesn't like this combination... This was the game I saw True-Name Nemesis for the first time. Managed to out-race with Crusader.
Side out: Don't recall | Side in: 2x Wing Shards (was supposed to be Council's Judgment)
G3: Got an early Chalice of the Void through. Fending off Batterskull with Mirran Crusader was great and bought me time to draw Wing Shards. I swung with Crusader and put him in fatal range. He played a Ponder then attacked. I had Wing Shards (two copies because of Ponder). Funny thing is, he made sure he had the counter in case I tried something, but he only had the one counter, so... I took him out the next turn.
Round 4: WUR Miracles (1-2)
This is the match I'm most ashamed of. He sided in Sulfur Elemental G2, and I didn't immediately think "Hey, Wilt-Leaf can take care of that no problem." In fact, I didn't think of that until the drive home as I was dropping my friend off. Anyway:
G1: It was a long game, I had him down to striking range with Jitte + Mirran Crusader. He cast Jace, bounced. I cast Mirran, he drew, bounced. I cast Mirran, he drew, sacrificed Jace to bounce. I cast Mirran Crusader, passed, then swung for the win.
No side, big mistake.
G2: Sulfur Elemental. I managed to get rid of it, but at one point I was down to just a Mangara equipped with Jitte AND SoFaI. I managed to connect just once before he got Tear (Wear/Tear) on my Jitte. Aggro with another Sulfur Elemental and V-Clique sealed the game. (StP hit Mangara)
G3: T1 Vial, T2 Port, T3 Thalia + Revoker on SdT. It's worth noting that Counterbalance was not great in this match, as he was frequently tapping out to deal with my creatures. He definitely doesn't play Miracles like I would. Anyway, Sulfur Elemental came down and he was able to protect it. I was racing with Serra Avenger, but he had V-Clique again. I would bounce it with Karakas to swing through, so he had my hand at his mercy. The match was over with a minute left on the clock.
I commend him for playing to win and playing quickly. He said, and I quote, "I hate Death and Taxes, it's my worst match-up." I think he just needs some more practice with the deck. Then again, I need more practice, too. But cut me some slack, I was sick and sitting was uncomfortable for me because of a bruise from falling down a flight of stairs. I'm going back next week for what is probably my last tourney in a while (Work normally has me on Thursdays and that's the only T1.5 in the area that I know of)
Wing Shards came through for me in the one match I sided it in for. It seems more powerful than Celestial Flare, and easier to get through counters than Council's Judgment, so I'm wondering why people aren't running it at all. Everyone was quick to jump on Council's Judgment when it was released, so I don't see the "costs an extra mana" argument to be all that valid. I've had this card sitting around since I built the deck in 2010, when it was SB tech vs Progenitus-Bant, where it saved my life more than once. (Of course, that was when Goldmeadow Harrier was in the main and Burrenton Forge-Tender was in the side... weird place for the deck.) Did anybody try this card before choosing Celestial Flare? I might try to go back and find that discussion, if anyone can point me in the right direction.
I just played a match on Cockatrice vs Scapewish. I really didn't know what it was and assumed it was a red-variant Nic-Fit, which helped a lot but didn't quite get me the match.
G1, I ended up beating him down with just a Flickerwisp and a Revoker (naming deed): We both made it to top-deck mode, but he was around 30 life off of Thragtusks and Baloths. I ended up stabilizing a Mangara and managed to keep him off a threat while I took him down in like 6-7 turns of beating face. He revealed the Deed as his only card in hand.
G2, I was in a favorable position, but he Scapeshift combo'd for game. (Took me by surprise)
G3, I was beating him down with Mirran Crusader + Jitte. He was down to 3 life and then he TOP DECKED the Scapeshift for game.
He was running Punishing/Grove, which doesn't support your statement, but it could be an even more fringe list or a sub-optimal build. The best tool vs it is to StP the Explorers, in my opinion. Keeping him off lands is key. Other than that, I'd say racing him is the next line of action, but it's fairly difficult because he plays BIG creatures that also gain him life. IF you see a lot of ScapeWish, it might be a good idea to pack some Cataclysms, but you'd only be in a good position to use it if you have a way to deal with any 5/3s or 4/4s on his side of the field afterward.
I'm trying out SotL right now in the side and in the 5-6 games I've played, I haven't casted her. She seems great especially off a Vial, and she's probably necessary vs Elves, but I'm not even sure I'd try siding the two copies I run in vs BUG or RUG decks, with all their removal + Goyf getting +2/+2 when she hits the grave.
I also finally broke down and I'm trying Mirran Crusader as a 2x, and I'm liking his huge offensive presence. Nothing really to complain about. At its absolute worst, it blocks Goyf all day. I haven't really played competitively since Revoker came out, so it's nice to see the tons of strong additions that have come about.
I hope you find something to give them perspective. I stopped playing in high school, and I was super relieved when I found most people don't play with insane house rules. (Especially since the g game is already PLENTY breakable using the rules in place)
Thanks.
If it does, could one theoretically use the combo with Reveillark and crew to pump a creature with Evolve to monumental proportions by activating Mirror Entity repeatedly every time Evolve triggers, but before it resolves?
For reference, the Mirror Entity combo consists of:
Along with a creature that has a good ETB effect, like Acidic Slime.
Elusive Krasis, to reference Evolve's rules text.
Formats: Legacy, Modern, Standard, EDH
Decks: I'll sleeve up anything just to try it. I mostly play legacy, it's my favorite format, but I'm helping my friend test Standard and I'm a casual Modern player. My most played deck is DnT, but like I said I will and do play almost anything.
Times on: Sporadically, but usually on Wed-Thurs afternoons, EST.
Servers I play on: play.woogerworks.com, 66.221.254.87
I'd rather get the tourney going sooner than later, because we don't know how long Woogerworks will be around. And if it gains popularity, it could become unstable, considering how Cockatrice.de itself had issues with overcrowding.