Full admission: I have really only been testing against GB Zombies thus far, so I am just going to post my thoughts on 1) How the deck plays out and 2) That MU.
Firstly, I am seeing that our big turns are two and four (Three with Farseek; more on that later).
Turn 1: This is our Pillar / Hold Slip up turn. Pillar is amazing pretty much everytime I start with it, but I have been finding Slip to be a bit useless here. Then again, we may just want our shock land into play tapped here and be done with it.
Turn 2: Abrupt Decay is basically going to be my go to removal. On turn two we have so many things we are wanting to do: Hold up Abrupt, cast Dreadbore or Farseek. To that end, I am going to max out on Decays and Farseek. Specifically against Zombies, Dreadbore is starting to get on my nerves. Gravecrawler into Rancor is just so bad.
Turn 3: Nighthawks. Nighthawks everywhere. I cannot stress how awesome this card will be, I think. The keyrune feels bad in the ramp side of things (three to five is much worse than two to four) but indeed the body is good.
Turn 4:Olivia, Huntmaster, and G. Relentless are next up on four. These four drops are just value gaining machines. This is the sole reason I want Farseek as a 4-of.
After that is thragtusk and the new GB PW. As always, Thragtusk is great: He gains you life, he drops a token, and generally doesn't afraid of anything. Have yet to play with the new PW but she doesn't feel very good in a vacuum.
On Card Draw: I think Underworld Connections feels better, but there are pros and cons. The fact of the matter is that I don't think anyone will ever really find if one between that and SiB is "The Best".
Final thoughts: When this deck curves out, it is neigh unbeatable. Turn two is really where our tempo goes. Turn Four is when we bring the real game. And the rest is likely to morph with the meta / go to player preference.
So what is everyone's opinion on the correct number of Curse of Death Holds in the deck both Main and side? I find it almost essential to have 2-3 main to take the delver match easily game one. The games tend to play out the same: They counter my early removal (sans T1 they play a delver and pass, I play a swamp and slip it) and then at some point I either DoJ or Curse and get there.
However, I keep seeing lists running 0-1 main and maybe 2 at most in the 75. Maybe I just have tunnel vision on the card, but doesn't this just seem a little too few? The only real time it's kinda cruddy to me is against token decks that run anthem effects. But then at worst all you are doing is countering an anthem effect.
I want this to almost play like a Ramp-LD deck but it still feels like it's missing something. I'm almost set on Grixis Control, but want to just make sure a sweet Tempo deck (The type of deck that I'm drawn most to) doesn't slip past.
This list was just sort of randomly put together while at work and if it (or a slight variation) proves good on paper I'll report more later.
Taking that into consideration, I guess my main point was to bring up discussion and answer the question: "Which is better suited for the current meta?"
What? If you check out any "competitive" UW lists nowadays, they definitely seem to be going towards a more "traditional" control approach with only 2 swords and minimal aggro cratures. Sure, there are lists that run a more creature heavy build but Swords are no longer the main wincon in any of these decks (unlike the traditional caw-blade). There is no doubt that planeswalkers will be 2-4 of in a UW deck with blades being a 2 of tops (nearly impossible to defend it from 8 ancient grudges)
This is Tim Landale's deck from a recent SCG tourney. Note not the lack of swords, but the fundamental ideas behind his creatures. We can't just splice swords in here and expect them to work (Honorable mention goes to Inkmoth Nexus, however). Reason being you need cheap sword bearers, who can ideally:
1. Self replicate (See Squad hawk)
2. Cantrip (Seagate Oracle?)
3. Provide some other ability to your team (I'm coming up with Azure Mage and Lenolin Arbiter, here...)
I would go as far as to say this, UW Walkers is pure "Control", whereas UW Blade is really a Tempo-Control deck: You want to develop board, hit in there with a creature with some pretty good reach, untap your lands, and keep up resource denying counter magic. Coupled with efficient cantrips and sweepers, you have a great tempo deck.
UW Walkers is going to have a different plan. Stall out until you can fill the board with a couple of high end walkers and keep your opponent in check by casting what amounts to 2-3 free "sorceries" per turn with permission backup.
So no, I don't think their the same strat. Could they be? Likely someone could merge the two, but I think they remain better separate.
I see that there is no place for more "traditional" UW Control in either Competitive or Developing Competitive. Oh how the mighty are fallen.
While "Caw-Blade"-esque decks continue to haunt us, even from the grave of rotation, I can't help but wonder what our good friend UW 'walkers and variants are doing for the winter. Some words of wisdom from the PotY, Brad Nelson from a little over a week ago, on Walkers control:
"I feel that this is the safest choice to take into a tournament of aggressive strategies. U/W Control can have difficulties dealing with other control decks at times, since it is geared towards slower threats and limited countermagic."
And then on Swords:
"U/W Blade was one of the decks that I was working on when the set released. I liked how powerful Blade Splicer was against Liliana decks, and that much is still true. This creature is by far the best creature for attacking this planeswalker right now. The only reason this deck isn't that great is that U/W Planeswalker Control is just better."
Now, I will certainly take to arms about that last thing there about Swords being just "worse" than Walkers, but I think he has a point. While both have strengths, It could be possible that due to lack of Quick and dirty PW removal for UB control, and generally Blue and White have some of the best answers in the format (except spot removal; "No longer #1 baby! ; ; ) may allow us to make a play at this meta.
So let's get a brainstorming session here, and see what people have to say about this. I'm curious about other's thoughts here.
Basically we want to get Heartless out here so we can start pumping out very cheap wolves and then drop some manabarbs so they have a negative to try to force our wolves to change.
Honestly it's not running like I want it to. It feels just a little clunky, likely due to lack of Reckless Waif(u) and Wolfpack Alpha. I was hoping the mid game strength of Barbs and Summoning would offset those, but without them consistantly it kinds hurts the gameplan.
Part of my plan is to make this deck look quite similar to Solar Flare in some ways, but then to play odd cards to take people off guard. Thus the Turn Aside. I think O. Ring may be a little slow for our plan. But beyond that, it's not like I'm going to fear many non-creature things by that time in the match any way. Like I said, this was made while drunk lol.
While I would love additional ways to pitch J-G, I believe you may be forgetting the power that is Forbidden Alch.
My plan for Surgical Extract. is going to be Noxious Revival. Or Misstep in the side.
Why do you want absolutely to drop Liliana on turn 3 ?
Because both of her starting available abilities are quite relevant. Plus, any time they spend trying to take her out is beneficial. It would be like advancing your goal PLUS a time walk, usually. Or you perhaps take our their only creature (deck dependant), then make them discard, then take another creature and "go off" with sun titan into image into her again. Not too shabby.
Anyway, as far as the deck goes as a whole we can observe this:
1. It does well in a vacuum.
2. It is in colors that actually have some pretty kickass answers in this format.
3. It is nearly so linear that very little hate needs to be dedicated to it to be effective.
4. It was suspected to be a (maybe perhaps "the" only assured) major player at states, but was steamrolled by WWR.
So it will simply:
1. Bide it's time before it comes to stomp on peoples day again.
2. new tech (Something we have now, but havn't looked at yet) will be added into it that turns it into a respectable threat, OR the next set brings what it needs to put it over the top.
3. The next set will bring what it needs to take it home (Like pre-primeval Valakut, maybe?)
But assuredly someone out there is going to be at your FNM who dropped some cash on some Lilianas and some Snapcasters and wants to play with them one way or another before they trade em off (While their still high (Them being the cards or perhaps him for still playing this deck right now lol)).
If you're using laboratory maniac as your main win-condition, I really feel like you should be using at least 3, now im not sure what you could cut but it definitely needs more then 2.
Its very open to removal.
On a positive note, I really enjoy the idea. I love Jin-Gitaxias.
I thought so at first too, but then I noticed that around two turns after you are Drawing 8+ cards a turn and can resurrect things from the grave pretty much on a whim he really just wastes space. You can deffo find him when you need him.
So I've never really brewed anything good before, like ever, but I'm kinda drunk right now and feeling oddly faithful in this. I bring you: "Why god why" or "No just god would allow someone to sleeve up a pile like this".
This is a combo deck that works on the synergy between Jin-Gitaxas and Lab. Maniac. The goal is to drop a Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and Unburial Rites in the yard from turns 2-3 and then follow standard Solar Flare tech from there to get J-G back from the grave. From there, he will fill your hand with permission and answers and remove options from your opponents hand. Win card will be Laboratory Maniac.
The Gutshots and Unsummons are strictly to stall and deal with early Nobles. The usage of Turn Aside is on the theory that they might have a Doom Blade or something and it's a really cheap answer to that. The Looter is a particular card of note, as it really enables some sick plays.
Go ahead guys, rip in. I have been goldfishing this at about turns 4-5 on getting J-G but who knows, maybe we can speed it up or put a nail in it. Love to hear some thoughts.
Firstly, I am seeing that our big turns are two and four (Three with Farseek; more on that later).
Turn 1: This is our Pillar / Hold Slip up turn. Pillar is amazing pretty much everytime I start with it, but I have been finding Slip to be a bit useless here. Then again, we may just want our shock land into play tapped here and be done with it.
Turn 2: Abrupt Decay is basically going to be my go to removal. On turn two we have so many things we are wanting to do: Hold up Abrupt, cast Dreadbore or Farseek. To that end, I am going to max out on Decays and Farseek. Specifically against Zombies, Dreadbore is starting to get on my nerves. Gravecrawler into Rancor is just so bad.
Turn 3: Nighthawks. Nighthawks everywhere. I cannot stress how awesome this card will be, I think. The keyrune feels bad in the ramp side of things (three to five is much worse than two to four) but indeed the body is good.
Turn 4:Olivia, Huntmaster, and G. Relentless are next up on four. These four drops are just value gaining machines. This is the sole reason I want Farseek as a 4-of.
After that is thragtusk and the new GB PW. As always, Thragtusk is great: He gains you life, he drops a token, and generally doesn't afraid of anything. Have yet to play with the new PW but she doesn't feel very good in a vacuum.
On Card Draw: I think Underworld Connections feels better, but there are pros and cons. The fact of the matter is that I don't think anyone will ever really find if one between that and SiB is "The Best".
Final thoughts: When this deck curves out, it is neigh unbeatable. Turn two is really where our tempo goes. Turn Four is when we bring the real game. And the rest is likely to morph with the meta / go to player preference.
However, I keep seeing lists running 0-1 main and maybe 2 at most in the 75. Maybe I just have tunnel vision on the card, but doesn't this just seem a little too few? The only real time it's kinda cruddy to me is against token decks that run anthem effects. But then at worst all you are doing is countering an anthem effect.
http://www.howtofixcomputers.com/forums/ati-videocards/dxdiag-telling-me-my-radeon-hd-5770-only-has-626-mb-vram-306897.html
As far as packaged ones go, these are fairly good.
But really, find a local asian store and go nuts.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
3 AEther Adept
3 Frost Titan
3 Acidic Slime
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
//Tricks and such
4 Rampant Growth
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ratchet Bomb
//Permission Goes here
4 Mana Leak
4 Beast Within
3 Bramblecrush
//Land
4 Hinterland Harbor
10 Forest
8 Island
I want this to almost play like a Ramp-LD deck but it still feels like it's missing something. I'm almost set on Grixis Control, but want to just make sure a sweet Tempo deck (The type of deck that I'm drawn most to) doesn't slip past.
This list was just sort of randomly put together while at work and if it (or a slight variation) proves good on paper I'll report more later.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
I will concede a few things to this, but note one other thing: https://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41152
This is Tim Landale's deck from a recent SCG tourney. Note not the lack of swords, but the fundamental ideas behind his creatures. We can't just splice swords in here and expect them to work (Honorable mention goes to Inkmoth Nexus, however). Reason being you need cheap sword bearers, who can ideally:
1. Self replicate (See Squad hawk)
2. Cantrip (Seagate Oracle?)
3. Provide some other ability to your team (I'm coming up with Azure Mage and Lenolin Arbiter, here...)
I would go as far as to say this, UW Walkers is pure "Control", whereas UW Blade is really a Tempo-Control deck: You want to develop board, hit in there with a creature with some pretty good reach, untap your lands, and keep up resource denying counter magic. Coupled with efficient cantrips and sweepers, you have a great tempo deck.
UW Walkers is going to have a different plan. Stall out until you can fill the board with a couple of high end walkers and keep your opponent in check by casting what amounts to 2-3 free "sorceries" per turn with permission backup.
So no, I don't think their the same strat. Could they be? Likely someone could merge the two, but I think they remain better separate.
While "Caw-Blade"-esque decks continue to haunt us, even from the grave of rotation, I can't help but wonder what our good friend UW 'walkers and variants are doing for the winter. Some words of wisdom from the PotY, Brad Nelson from a little over a week ago, on Walkers control:
And then on Swords:
Now, I will certainly take to arms about that last thing there about Swords being just "worse" than Walkers, but I think he has a point. While both have strengths, It could be possible that due to lack of Quick and dirty PW removal for UB control, and generally Blue and White have some of the best answers in the format (except spot removal; "No longer #1 baby! ; ; ) may allow us to make a play at this meta.
So let's get a brainstorming session here, and see what people have to say about this. I'm curious about other's thoughts here.
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Forest
5 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery
1 Copperline Gorge
4 Villagers of Estwald
4 Hanweir Watchkeep
4 Kruin Outlaw
4 Instigator Gang
3 Tormented Pariah
3 Ulvenwald Mystics
3 Grizzled Outcasts
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Manabarbs
4 Altar's Reap
Basically we want to get Heartless out here so we can start pumping out very cheap wolves and then drop some manabarbs so they have a negative to try to force our wolves to change.
Honestly it's not running like I want it to. It feels just a little clunky, likely due to lack of Reckless Waif(u) and Wolfpack Alpha. I was hoping the mid game strength of Barbs and Summoning would offset those, but without them consistantly it kinds hurts the gameplan.
Thoughts?
While I would love additional ways to pitch J-G, I believe you may be forgetting the power that is Forbidden Alch.
My plan for Surgical Extract. is going to be Noxious Revival. Or Misstep in the side.
Because both of her starting available abilities are quite relevant. Plus, any time they spend trying to take her out is beneficial. It would be like advancing your goal PLUS a time walk, usually. Or you perhaps take our their only creature (deck dependant), then make them discard, then take another creature and "go off" with sun titan into image into her again. Not too shabby.
Anyway, as far as the deck goes as a whole we can observe this:
1. It does well in a vacuum.
2. It is in colors that actually have some pretty kickass answers in this format.
3. It is nearly so linear that very little hate needs to be dedicated to it to be effective.
4. It was suspected to be a (maybe perhaps "the" only assured) major player at states, but was steamrolled by WWR.
So it will simply:
1. Bide it's time before it comes to stomp on peoples day again.
2. new tech (Something we have now, but havn't looked at yet) will be added into it that turns it into a respectable threat, OR the next set brings what it needs to put it over the top.
3. The next set will bring what it needs to take it home (Like pre-primeval Valakut, maybe?)
But assuredly someone out there is going to be at your FNM who dropped some cash on some Lilianas and some Snapcasters and wants to play with them one way or another before they trade em off (While their still high (Them being the cards or perhaps him for still playing this deck right now lol)).
I thought so at first too, but then I noticed that around two turns after you are Drawing 8+ cards a turn and can resurrect things from the grave pretty much on a whim he really just wastes space. You can deffo find him when you need him.
Thanks for the suggestion. I think they are slight variations on eachother, however.
Double posts merged and warned.
This is a combo deck that works on the synergy between Jin-Gitaxas and Lab. Maniac. The goal is to drop a Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and Unburial Rites in the yard from turns 2-3 and then follow standard Solar Flare tech from there to get J-G back from the grave. From there, he will fill your hand with permission and answers and remove options from your opponents hand. Win card will be Laboratory Maniac.
The Gutshots and Unsummons are strictly to stall and deal with early Nobles. The usage of Turn Aside is on the theory that they might have a Doom Blade or something and it's a really cheap answer to that. The Looter is a particular card of note, as it really enables some sick plays.
Go ahead guys, rip in. I have been goldfishing this at about turns 4-5 on getting J-G but who knows, maybe we can speed it up or put a nail in it. Love to hear some thoughts.
2 Mana Leak
4 Turn Aside
Protection/Stalls
4 Unsummon
4 Gut Shot
Dig, b@%#$!
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Merfolk Looter
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
2 Laboratory Maniac
3 Unburial Rites
Lands
8 Island
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Seachrome Coast
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Isolated Chapel