Depends on the context. What deck are you playing against that is Collective Brutality'ing you?
As for red creatures that are resilient Chandra's Phoenix and Keldon Marauders however I don't really recommend using either one unless you're playing mono red burn and you're on a budget then marauders is an alright card. If you are playing Naya you have access to Wild Nacatl which survives Collective Brutality...
What you really need to ask yourself is: How often do you see Collective Brutality and are you going to let it warp your deck? There is a reason Swiftspear, Guide, and Eidolon are the core creatures of our deck. When you start letting a card like Collective Brutality warp the core of your deck you need to either consider a new deck or just chalk that match up as a loss and just accept "Welp, I'm going 3-1 tonight..." Any Modern deck in general can only diversify itself so much before starts losing the ability to execute its primary game plan effectively. That's my theory anyway and others may agree.
Brutality simply wrecks me by removing Guide/Eidolon, discarding a Bolt and gaining 2 life.
It's even more brutal when accompanied with Inquisition. Stuff like turn 1 Inquisition, turn 2 Brutality, turn 3 Goyf/Death Shadow.
I don't want Brutality to "warp" the deck, but man - I'm sick of losing to it. I can't just "chalk it up as a match loss" when Brutality is the in the Top 10 of most played cards (according to mtggoldfish).
Good opponents also don't target Swiftspear, they target Guide or Eidolon.
Lately, Collective Brutality has been brutally beating up on me (sorry for the pun). Is there a way to combat this card?
Collective Brutality is one of the best anti-burn cards we have in modern. Its casting does not guarantee a loss for the burn player, but it really messes up with burn's gameplan. If used escalating all modes, you are being three for one'd. However, you can fight it back to achieve some degree of damage control.
Atarka's Command is decent against it, if you cast it in response to CB choosing +1/+1 to your creatures and denying lifegain for your opponents, you can counter 2 CB modes (lifedrain and -2/-2 to target creature). If you don't have creatures or don't mind them dying, 3 to the face and lifegain deny are the way to go, so Skullcrack is equally good in this situation.
Just a heads up. For the command, use the +1/+1 mode and three damage (assuming you want to save a creature). it is one more damage than denying them two life.
And obviously if the target is Swiftspear, you skullcrack mode.
Thanks for the replies.
Atarka's Command and Skullcrack are good, but having to keep 2 mana open is quite difficult at times. And if I keep my mana open, my opponent could simply play another card, while I fall behind on tempo.
So I'm looking for some additional answers. Is there a resilient creature or permanent in Red? Is it worth it to go a little bigger and include something like Chandra?
Noble Hierarch, Chalice of the Void, Engineered Explosives are more likely to appear in the next Modern Masters, so the big value cards for EMA 2 would certainly be:
- Mana Drain
- Rishadan Port
- Flusterstorm
Some nice lower value Rares would be:
- The 5 Ice Age Painlands (would enable a Sliver theme)
- Deserted Temple
- Phyrexian Altar
- Phyrexian Tower
- Back to Basics
- Grindstone
- Intuition
- Scroll Rack
- Phyrexian Dreadnought
- Sphere of Resistance
- Bribery
- Food Chain
- Unmask
As for Uncommons, these would be nice:
- Ancient Tomb
- Thran Dynamo
- Cabal Coffers
- Reanimate
- Necromancy
- Gemstone Mine (very likely for Limited considerations)
- Crystalline Sliver
- Worldly Tutor (the only Mirage tutor that doesn't have a reprint)
- Carpet of Flowers
Commons in need of a reprint:
- Rhystic Study
- Oubliette (a nod to paper Pauper)
- Quirion Ranger
- Priest of Titania
- Snap
- Crop Rotation
If Coldsnap is not eligible for Modern Masters, then the following inclusions would make sense:
- Mishra's Bauble
- Counterbalance
- Dark Depths
For Limited, the color archetypes would most likely be:
Black - Reanimation
Green - Elves, Enchantment
Blue - Accelerated Blue
Artifacts - Ramp
Multicolor - Slivers
Red - If there are a lot of nonbasics, I could see Magus of the Moon as a high-value card for Red (pretty much the only one besides Through the Breach that hasn't got reprinted). I could also see Grim Lavamancer and Lavamancer's Skill as the foundation for a Red Wizard archetype.
White - This is the difficult one. Value-wise, it is very shallow. Orim's Chant is the only White card with some value. Maybe some Enchantress theme with Solitary Confinement and Enlightened Tutor?
What kind of impact does the demand from Legacy or Vintage have on prices? If the Eldrazi become dominant again, it is most likely in those formats. For instance, some good artifacts get printed in Kaladesh, which catapults Eldrazi to Tier 1 status in those formats.
If Eldrazi become too good in Modern, I suspect Wizards will intervene quickly, so the Modern demand is largely because of Bant Eldrazi and Tron using Newlamog.
Is there any news about the future of magiccards.info yet?
It would be a huge loss if the site doesn't get updated anymore. I have found it to be miles better than Gatherer. And I'm certainly not alone, I assume that quite a few pros used it as well.
I'd be interested in hearing about which cards you replaced these cuts with and how well it has been working for you. Has it made for a better environment? Do you miss the old cards? How did you weigh the 3 criteria when evaluating cards? Anything else you can share about the experience?
I didn't always replace it with lower-power removal, but simply something interesting. For example, Vulturous Aven came in for Terror. k_alk also mentioned this: it's important to take a look at the removal density. I think the average cube has slightly too much removal, so taking away the premium spells (that also get played in powered cubes) is fine.
So far, it has been working very well and made for a more enjoyable experience. That's why I don't miss the old cards, e.g. Lightning Strike has been good enough so that I don't miss Lightning Bolt (similar to Izor's post above).
About the 3 criteria: I mostly focus on the mana. If a removal trades up in mana, it allows you to double-spell early and get ahead on tempo. That doesnt mean I simply cut every cheap removal, range and speed is also important. That's why stuff like Dead Weight is fine, since its range is limited.
I've been slowly depowering my cube for this very reason. Sadly had little to no play time recently to test but dropping anything bumped to uncommon and similar power level will hopefully make players think at the draft portion. Thanks for the wonderful discussions!
Thank you. Indeed, if a common gets bumped up in rarity, that is usually a sign that it may be too strong and needs re-evaluation.
I'm also very interested. I try one or two games with my cube, but I'm also thinking about cutting the cheap removal.
I can recommend it. While the Cube is not filled with the most powerful spells anymore, it feels more enjoyable. After all, it's Pauper Cube, if you want to have all the Power, Vintage Cube should satiate your needs
* I think (1) (2), and (3) are really more about the density of good removal than about removal's power level itself.
True. Red and Black in particular have a high density of quality removal, which is why most of my cuts have been in those colours. Incidentally, Red and Black had the highest win-percentage (although the sample size is way too small to make absolute judgments, this is more akin to a feeling).
* (4): This argument applies to literally every card that deviates from the average power level of a given pack. Did you cut bombs or situational cards as well?
Depends on your definion of "bomb". I have cut Rolling Thunder and Ashes to Ashes, but Guardian of the Guildpact and Mulldrifter are staying. I have to admit that I'm tempted to cut Mulldrifter, since it got upgraded to Uncommon (like Rolling Thunder), which is usually a good indicator whether a card is too strong for a Common.
Cheap removal mitigates mana screw, which is one hell of a reason to run it imo.
I haven't thought of this, good point. Toning down the power level doesn't mean cutting all the cheap removal.
And you can run Hexproof and Shroud stuff to make it more interesting.
Hexproof and Shroud are not enjoyable mechanics to play against because you can't interact well. Either you can outrace it, or you lose. For this reason I don't like Modern Boggles at all.
Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Flame Slash may be a bit ridiculous, but let people play with Incinerate before including stuff like Touch of the Void. Doom Blade and Terror may feel to strong (although they are indeed conditional), but I wouldn't make people play with Fatal Fumes or Demon's Grasp. Dead Weight and Last Gasp are fair enough. More or less unconditional hard removal doesn't have to cost 6 mana, which is what WotC seems to think. 4 mana is enough imo. Replace Doom Blade with Grisly Spectacle, why not. But not Sip of Hemlock.
Excellent points, this is exactly the direction I'm taking. By cutting premium removal, the overall experience gets better.
EDIT: Also, on the issue of instant speed removal. What instant speed does is it just makes that removal spell slightly better, it doesn't really change the functionality. The 'problem' (if there's any) with op removal is that it trades up in mana. So if i was to do something about it, I'd be looking to up the mana curve of removal spells slightly, as I said above. But making everything sorcery speed would only create a less interactive and boring format. I like MtG better than Hearthstone and there's a reason for that.
Maybe I wasn't clear - I'm not cutting all the instant speed removal, it was solely one of three criterion. Instant speed removal that is either more expensive or doesn't hit all targets are fine. So Disfigure and Searing Spear are ok, but Doom Blade and Lightning Bolt are not.
My list of cuts:
- Rolling Thunder
- Lightning Bolt
- Burst Lightning
- Chain Lightning
- Flame Slash
- Ashes to Ashes (unless you're behind against an aggro deck, life payments are usually negligible; this even lets you rally back against aggro)
- Doom Blade
- Terror
- Victim of Night (basically Murder for BB, unless you're going heavy on red Vampires and black Zombies)
- Vendetta (same as Ashes)
- Snuff Out (same as Ashes)
- Sunlance
- Temporal Isolation (best of the Pacifism-variants)
- Mana Leak (think of it as a reactive Vindicate, Counterspell is fine because UU is a drawback)
I've been having some good results in toning down the power of removal. Specifically, I've taken out cheap, instant cards like Lightning Bolt and Doom Blade. There is still enough removal, but either with some targeting restriction or a higher cost.
What's the reason behind this? I see several advantages:
Other noncreature spells become more playable. Specifically pump spells and auras. Cheap instant removal just trumped these spells all the time, so combat was always decided in favor of the player with removal. That limited play patterns.
Fatties get stronger. Especially the black-based removal heavily disincentivized the use of bigger creatures. When you ramp into a fattie and it gets taken out by a cheap spell, you severely fall behind on tempo and cards (for example if you used Sakura Tribe Elder to ramp out a Nessian Asp).
The range of viable archetypes widens. Ramp and aggro with pump spells or auras get more playable with weaker removal. It also strengthens synergy-based decks, since they suffered when their key cards got removed.
The draft process is more interesting. Instead of simply picking the good removal, the decisions are harder. This rewards reading signals and good deckbuilding.
Sideboarding gets more important. Since most removal has some kind of restriction, it is very important that it lines up well with your opponents strategy, so switching is more important postboard (for example siding out expensive removal against tokens).
Play patterns get more varied. Before, there was almost no downside to leaving up 1-2 mana for removal. Now, there are some real decisions: Do I use my entire turn to remove a creature or build some board presence (or some other play)?
This approach mirrors the direction that Wizards has taken with recent successful limited environments, where the quality of removal spells is worse when compared to older sets.
The interesting question here is: What is your threshold for power? Of course, this is a very subjective question. Personally, I have three criteria:
a) Manacost
b) Instant or Sorcery speed
c) Range of targets
If a removal spell passes all of these, it is too strong for my cube. So if we take a look at Lightning Bolt, we see the following:
a) 1 Mana
b) Instant
c) Most of the creatures in an average Pauper cube
Although Flatten has more targets than Bolt, it is more balanced because you usually use an entire turn to play it. With Bolt you could often cast multiple spells and create a massive advantage.
Because of the more enjoyable experience weaker removal has created, I'm even contemplating using cards like Feast or Famine, which normally wouldn't make most cubes. However, the versatility could compensate the lower power level, the card is never dead (still need more testing though).
With the unveiling of Etched Champion, a reprint of Mox Opal in MM2 seems highly likely. If that is the case, how would you predict the resulting price movements? Will it go down to 20$? 30$? Or stay at the current price?
Also, if it gets reprinted - Rare or Mythic?
Is there anyone else that finds Aspect of Hydra too inconsistent? Sure, when it works, then it is super splashy, but when your opponent has removal this either rots in your hand or leads to a 2 for 1 for your opponent.
On a similar note, I've also been regularly siding out Rancor to prevent getting blown out by removal (which most opponents will surely bring in).
I hope I'm not slaying a sacred cow, but I think Ranger's Guile might be better than Rancor in this deck. I have been constantly impressed by Vines of Vastwood and would even go so far as to say it's the best card in the deck. Our creatures outclass pretty much everything else, so I don't see the need to make them even bigger. Rather, I think it's paramount to protect them, hence the idea of Ranger's Guile as Vines number 5-8. I have been testing this for a short while and it's been amazing so far, especially against UWR Control, Jund and Twin (let's you save the Vines for their Splinter Twin). It was pretty funny pumping a Kalonian Tusker to kill a Spellskite (Guile can't be misdirected). Also let's you save a three toughness creature from Anger of the Gods.
Let me know what you think!
I've mostly only tested it as a two-of; I've mentioned before it's been very consistent like that. At worst it's a Giant Growth, but more often it's much better. I'd like to test it as a 4-of more, replacing the 4-drops. If you're playing smart, you'll rarely be 2 for 1'd. Rancor is indeed a sacred cow.
The playing smart thing has its limits, especially when you're facing Path to Exile and Abrupt Decay. The problem with pump spells is that even if you are playing them cautiously, you still get blown out by non-damage based removal. Vines is so good because it turns this entire dynamic around.
Also, if the playing smart thing involves not casting Rancor because you fear removal, what additional value does it provide to the game? What matchups does Rancor improve? What cards can only be beaten with Rancor?
I have played a lot of games with this deck (including Rancor), and it's been a swingy card (similar to Aspect of Hydra). I'd rather have more consistency, especially in long tournaments like PTQs or GPs.
Is there anyone else that finds Aspect of Hydra too inconsistent? Sure, when it works, then it is super splashy, but when your opponent has removal this either rots in your hand or leads to a 2 for 1 for your opponent.
On a similar note, I've also been regularly siding out Rancor to prevent getting blown out by removal (which most opponents will surely bring in).
I hope I'm not slaying a sacred cow, but I think Ranger's Guile might be better than Rancor in this deck. I have been constantly impressed by Vines of Vastwood and would even go so far as to say it's the best card in the deck. Our creatures outclass pretty much everything else, so I don't see the need to make them even bigger. Rather, I think it's paramount to protect them, hence the idea of Ranger's Guile as Vines number 5-8. I have been testing this for a short while and it's been amazing so far, especially against UWR Control, Jund and Twin (let's you save the Vines for their Splinter Twin). It was pretty funny pumping a Kalonian Tusker to kill a Spellskite (Guile can't be misdirected). Also let's you save a three toughness creature from Anger of the Gods.
Brutality simply wrecks me by removing Guide/Eidolon, discarding a Bolt and gaining 2 life.
It's even more brutal when accompanied with Inquisition. Stuff like turn 1 Inquisition, turn 2 Brutality, turn 3 Goyf/Death Shadow.
I don't want Brutality to "warp" the deck, but man - I'm sick of losing to it. I can't just "chalk it up as a match loss" when Brutality is the in the Top 10 of most played cards (according to mtggoldfish).
Good opponents also don't target Swiftspear, they target Guide or Eidolon.
Thanks for the replies.
Atarka's Command and Skullcrack are good, but having to keep 2 mana open is quite difficult at times. And if I keep my mana open, my opponent could simply play another card, while I fall behind on tempo.
So I'm looking for some additional answers. Is there a resilient creature or permanent in Red? Is it worth it to go a little bigger and include something like Chandra?
- Mana Drain
- Rishadan Port
- Flusterstorm
Some nice lower value Rares would be:
- The 5 Ice Age Painlands (would enable a Sliver theme)
- Deserted Temple
- Phyrexian Altar
- Phyrexian Tower
- Back to Basics
- Grindstone
- Intuition
- Scroll Rack
- Phyrexian Dreadnought
- Sphere of Resistance
- Bribery
- Food Chain
- Unmask
As for Uncommons, these would be nice:
- Ancient Tomb
- Thran Dynamo
- Cabal Coffers
- Reanimate
- Necromancy
- Gemstone Mine (very likely for Limited considerations)
- Crystalline Sliver
- Worldly Tutor (the only Mirage tutor that doesn't have a reprint)
- Carpet of Flowers
Commons in need of a reprint:
- Rhystic Study
- Oubliette (a nod to paper Pauper)
- Quirion Ranger
- Priest of Titania
- Snap
- Crop Rotation
If Coldsnap is not eligible for Modern Masters, then the following inclusions would make sense:
- Mishra's Bauble
- Counterbalance
- Dark Depths
For Limited, the color archetypes would most likely be:
Black - Reanimation
Green - Elves, Enchantment
Blue - Accelerated Blue
Artifacts - Ramp
Multicolor - Slivers
Red - If there are a lot of nonbasics, I could see Magus of the Moon as a high-value card for Red (pretty much the only one besides Through the Breach that hasn't got reprinted). I could also see Grim Lavamancer and Lavamancer's Skill as the foundation for a Red Wizard archetype.
White - This is the difficult one. Value-wise, it is very shallow. Orim's Chant is the only White card with some value. Maybe some Enchantress theme with Solitary Confinement and Enlightened Tutor?
What kind of impact does the demand from Legacy or Vintage have on prices? If the Eldrazi become dominant again, it is most likely in those formats. For instance, some good artifacts get printed in Kaladesh, which catapults Eldrazi to Tier 1 status in those formats.
If Eldrazi become too good in Modern, I suspect Wizards will intervene quickly, so the Modern demand is largely because of Bant Eldrazi and Tron using Newlamog.
It would be a huge loss if the site doesn't get updated anymore. I have found it to be miles better than Gatherer. And I'm certainly not alone, I assume that quite a few pros used it as well.
Do you think their prices will go down after they rotate out of Standard?
How do you see their future price trajectory?
What about the lands, Eldrazi Temple and Eye of Ugin?
Reanimator sounds interesting, is it possible to run the deck with Watery Grave?
Taxes is something I've looked into, I might build it if Port and Karakas get reprinted in EMA.
This is what I have:
2 Wasteland
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
4 Force of Will
What deck do you recommend to build if you don't have a lot of money to spend?
I didn't always replace it with lower-power removal, but simply something interesting. For example, Vulturous Aven came in for Terror. k_alk also mentioned this: it's important to take a look at the removal density. I think the average cube has slightly too much removal, so taking away the premium spells (that also get played in powered cubes) is fine.
So far, it has been working very well and made for a more enjoyable experience. That's why I don't miss the old cards, e.g. Lightning Strike has been good enough so that I don't miss Lightning Bolt (similar to Izor's post above).
About the 3 criteria: I mostly focus on the mana. If a removal trades up in mana, it allows you to double-spell early and get ahead on tempo. That doesnt mean I simply cut every cheap removal, range and speed is also important. That's why stuff like Dead Weight is fine, since its range is limited.
Thank you. Indeed, if a common gets bumped up in rarity, that is usually a sign that it may be too strong and needs re-evaluation.
I can recommend it. While the Cube is not filled with the most powerful spells anymore, it feels more enjoyable. After all, it's Pauper Cube, if you want to have all the Power, Vintage Cube should satiate your needs
True. Red and Black in particular have a high density of quality removal, which is why most of my cuts have been in those colours. Incidentally, Red and Black had the highest win-percentage (although the sample size is way too small to make absolute judgments, this is more akin to a feeling).
Depends on your definion of "bomb". I have cut Rolling Thunder and Ashes to Ashes, but Guardian of the Guildpact and Mulldrifter are staying. I have to admit that I'm tempted to cut Mulldrifter, since it got upgraded to Uncommon (like Rolling Thunder), which is usually a good indicator whether a card is too strong for a Common.
I haven't thought of this, good point. Toning down the power level doesn't mean cutting all the cheap removal.
Hexproof and Shroud are not enjoyable mechanics to play against because you can't interact well. Either you can outrace it, or you lose. For this reason I don't like Modern Boggles at all.
Excellent points, this is exactly the direction I'm taking. By cutting premium removal, the overall experience gets better.
Maybe I wasn't clear - I'm not cutting all the instant speed removal, it was solely one of three criterion. Instant speed removal that is either more expensive or doesn't hit all targets are fine. So Disfigure and Searing Spear are ok, but Doom Blade and Lightning Bolt are not.
My list of cuts:
- Rolling Thunder
- Lightning Bolt
- Burst Lightning
- Chain Lightning
- Flame Slash
- Ashes to Ashes (unless you're behind against an aggro deck, life payments are usually negligible; this even lets you rally back against aggro)
- Doom Blade
- Terror
- Victim of Night (basically Murder for BB, unless you're going heavy on red Vampires and black Zombies)
- Vendetta (same as Ashes)
- Snuff Out (same as Ashes)
- Sunlance
- Temporal Isolation (best of the Pacifism-variants)
- Mana Leak (think of it as a reactive Vindicate, Counterspell is fine because UU is a drawback)
On the bubble: Tragic Slip, Repulse
I've been having some good results in toning down the power of removal. Specifically, I've taken out cheap, instant cards like Lightning Bolt and Doom Blade. There is still enough removal, but either with some targeting restriction or a higher cost.
What's the reason behind this? I see several advantages:
This approach mirrors the direction that Wizards has taken with recent successful limited environments, where the quality of removal spells is worse when compared to older sets.
The interesting question here is: What is your threshold for power? Of course, this is a very subjective question. Personally, I have three criteria:
a) Manacost
b) Instant or Sorcery speed
c) Range of targets
If a removal spell passes all of these, it is too strong for my cube. So if we take a look at Lightning Bolt, we see the following:
a) 1 Mana
b) Instant
c) Most of the creatures in an average Pauper cube
That is too strong. Lets compare it with Flatten:
a) 4 Mana
b) Instant
c) Almost all creatures
Although Flatten has more targets than Bolt, it is more balanced because you usually use an entire turn to play it. With Bolt you could often cast multiple spells and create a massive advantage.
Because of the more enjoyable experience weaker removal has created, I'm even contemplating using cards like Feast or Famine, which normally wouldn't make most cubes. However, the versatility could compensate the lower power level, the card is never dead (still need more testing though).
Also, if it gets reprinted - Rare or Mythic?
The playing smart thing has its limits, especially when you're facing Path to Exile and Abrupt Decay. The problem with pump spells is that even if you are playing them cautiously, you still get blown out by non-damage based removal. Vines is so good because it turns this entire dynamic around.
Also, if the playing smart thing involves not casting Rancor because you fear removal, what additional value does it provide to the game? What matchups does Rancor improve? What cards can only be beaten with Rancor?
I have played a lot of games with this deck (including Rancor), and it's been a swingy card (similar to Aspect of Hydra). I'd rather have more consistency, especially in long tournaments like PTQs or GPs.
On a similar note, I've also been regularly siding out Rancor to prevent getting blown out by removal (which most opponents will surely bring in).
I hope I'm not slaying a sacred cow, but I think Ranger's Guile might be better than Rancor in this deck. I have been constantly impressed by Vines of Vastwood and would even go so far as to say it's the best card in the deck. Our creatures outclass pretty much everything else, so I don't see the need to make them even bigger. Rather, I think it's paramount to protect them, hence the idea of Ranger's Guile as Vines number 5-8. I have been testing this for a short while and it's been amazing so far, especially against UWR Control, Jund and Twin (let's you save the Vines for their Splinter Twin). It was pretty funny pumping a Kalonian Tusker to kill a Spellskite (Guile can't be misdirected). Also let's you save a three toughness creature from Anger of the Gods.
Let me know what you think!