Friendly 9-round MTGO league pool. Pretty strong. How would you build it? I'm waffling between several options at the moment, and haven't played the first match yet.
In fact, I'm starting to feel that 9 rounds might not be enough to explore this pool!
I started with the WBu build above, and went 1-1 then changed to your suggested red splash with a 2-1 result.
It seemed to come down to Linvala and Turn Against. I didn't lose a game where one of them were played. I don't think I won a game when I didn't see them.
I also tried a BG, and a WB without the blue splash but with some colorless. But neither of those seemed any better than the above three. Thoughts, opinions, and advice are more than welcome. What do you all think?
I was going to say that there is no hope left but you keep on hoping. Screw logic, reason, rationality and reality. Stick with your convictions because hope is all you have left after all.
Yeah...cause heaven knows I sure don't have any Jaces in my collection.
Well, you're wrong, one look at M10 should make that clear. (I mean Lifelink? Leap? really?) They are showing a touch more complexity than pre-M10, but it's still very distinct from expansion sets.
Maybe. It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something.
But M10 also has Warp World, Underworld Dreams, and Planeswalkers at all. The mechanic isn't the easiest to understand. Jace 2.0 doesn't do anything new, it simply uses an existing mechanic in the set.
I'm not talking about overall set complexity. The core set is never going to introduce a new mechanic, or some new synergy. That is the job of expansion blocks.
But, they have shown a willingness to include individual card complexity (Necropotence was in core sets for quite a while). The difference between a 'walker with 3 or 4 abilities is far less than the difference between a set without 'walkers and one with them. Since the mechanic, and card type already exist in the core set, I don't by the 'it is too complex' argument.
So then what is the purpose of the core set now? To introduce new players to the game? They've tried that in the past, and it doesn't work all that well. New players tend to buy cards from the latest sets, since those are what are in displays at the big box stores, and those are the cards their friends are using and talking about. I don't think that that is the direction they are going now. Instead, I think they are starting to view the core set as the place to put cards from previous sets that they want to have in standard, plus cool cards to serve as 'pack sellers'. Baneslayer is certainly in the latter category. Jace 2.0 is as well.
If Goblin Tunneler from RoE is in M11, then there is still a (tiny) chance that Jace 2.0 is in.
Also, I don't think Wizards views the core set as simpler anymore (meaning designed for newer players). They have put the Planeswalkers in, and now scrye. I think they view it as an independent limited environment, and as a vehicle for including cards in the standard environment that they want to outside of the two current blocks. Think of it as the extra cards available between the two Standard blocks.
Honestly, I do think it will be Beleren. But, until officially spoiled, there is a slim chance of 2.0.
Ponder sets up your draw.
Spell pierce is generally all you need against the board sweeper. You want to slow them down by the two turns you need to finish lethal.
It can goldfish a T3 kill.
T1 Plains, Hada
T2 Mountain, Akoum, swing for 5
T3 Island, Akoum (or Shapeshifter), Hada, swing for 18
That said, I moved to other deck ideas, as this one doesn't seem to have quite the power/consistency for winning through. Although I haven't tried it with the current meta. (Only pre-rise)
Looking at your pool, I'm leaning toward black and red.
1. Pestilence Demon, Rage Nimbus. Both very good cards
2. Removal. You don't have any of the blue or white removal (guard duty, smite, narcolepsy, etc.)
With Runed Servitor and Grotag Siege-runner also in the mix (and probably should be there in place of Ogre Sentry anyway. I'm trying to live the dream of tossing him into the chariot. )
I ended up registering green-white, but that didn't do much. It was slow, and lacked answers to what the opponents were doing. I had better luck siding into blue-white for games 2-3. But even then I couldn't shake the feeling that I was missing something. It still felt like swapping in the blue changed the deck from losing quickly to clinging on hoping to steal a late win. There wasn't any...um...decisiveness... to how the deck seemed to play in those colors.
Thinking about it more, I'm leaning toward the blue-red, splash black version as having been probably better. That gives quick, evasive critters, a little more removal, and ways to sneak damage through.
To be honest, this deck is an older, pre-RoE version. I don't remember exactly, but it looks card-for-card like the deck from Kuala Lumpur.
With the changes from RoE, you are much better off going back to mono-red, and adding some RoE goodness: Devastating Summons, Staggershock, maybe Kiln Fiend or Kargan Dragonlord.
Look at a few of the newer threads to catch up on where RDW is, and is going.
This is the pool I opened last night. After taking the full 20 minutes struggling to find a deck, I took it to a 1-3 finish. I know I didn't find the right build, but this pool seemed ... disappointing ...
Zendikar is also a good set. Landful = yummy. But it wasn't without its problems too.
As a block (Pre-WWK), a single archetype completely dominated block constructed.
With the rotation of Lorwyn, Zendikar did not come with the tools necessary to combat the main mechanic of Alara block (cascade). There is really very little in Zendikar that can face the BBE->Blightning cascade. So as a new large set for Standard, it doesn't quite live up to what it needed to be. The all-Jund-all-the-time tournament results for the past months are a testament to Zendikar's failure to impact Standard in the way it needed to.
As a limited format, it is a little too fast. Agro is fun, but having no other viable draft archetype gets very old after a while.
RoE, to me, looks promising on all three of those fronts although it is certainly too early to tell for certain.
But one thing I can say for certain. I am excited to see what the set offers when the cards start hitting the table.
My opinion is my opinion alone, then in the next sentence you state yours as fact...Good one lol...
This set is awful, and whether or not anyone of you want to accept it or not is entirely up to you. Just remember in a month when Jund/naya/UW is curb stomping your Level.dec and Eldrazi.dec that you weren't warned.
Have fun.
So, for argument's sake, what would a large set need to be, in your opinion, to not be awful? Seriously. What is an example of a large set you would be satisfied with?
Because, to me, this set looks like it will be loads of fun to tinker with: Good art, some good standard cards, room to breathe in block, interesting mechanics to fiddle with, a different limited playstyle. All good stuff to me.
Then again it might just be that we set the bar at different levels. See... I remember when Fallen Empires released ... Yeah. Anything better than that is OK in my book.
I couldn't wade through all 25 pages. Has someone run the math yet?
Here is what I mean.
Let's say you connect with this guy turn 7 on the play. With no other shenanigans, there should be 47 cards in your deck. (60 - starting 7 - 6 turns of draw)
So ... the question then is: how many outs are you drawing to?
If you are only playing 4 Emrakul, and nothing else matters: You will hit at least 1 Emrakul in the next 6 cards ~43% of the time.
Add in 4 Time Warp, and count them as outs (you connected with this guy once, there is no reason to think you couldn't again off of a free turn):
Assuming you haven't drawn any yet, you will get at least one or the other 69.6% of the time. The 26% of that time where you only have time warps, you get a free do-over, and are now drawing against only 41 cards to hit 7 outs, improving your odds again.
Is it worth it for this card to be an instant win X% of the time, and be a 6/6 beater the remainder? Right now this feels like a "win more" card to me. If he's hitting for 6, you're in a pretty good spot already. Do you really need the rest of what he does?
For reference, here are the chances of seeing a win condition off this guy, based on the number of outs left in your deck assuming 47 cards still there.
In fact, I'm starting to feel that 9 rounds might not be enough to explore this pool!
1 Stern Constable
1 Strength of Arms
1 Thraben Inspector
2 Topplegeist
2 Town Gossipmonger
1 Devilthorn Fox
1 Moorland Drifter
1 Open the Armory
1 Puncturing Light
1 Unruly Mob
1 Dauntless Cathar
1 Pious Evangel
2 Inquisitor's Ox
1 Inspiring Captain
1 Silverstrike
1 Archangel Avacyn
Blue(15)
2 Ongoing Investigation
1 Press for Answers
1 Seagraf Skaab
1 Catalog
1 Deny Existence
1 Niblis of Dusk
1 Uninvited Geist
1 Drownyard Explorers
2 Sleep Paralysis
2 Gone Missing
1 Rise from the Tides
1 Siburlind Snapper
2 Dead Weight
1 Indulgent Aristocrat
1 Shamble Back
1 Asylum Visitor
1 Ghoulcaller's Accomplice
1 Grotesque Mutation
1 Macabre Waltz
1 Murderous Compulsion
2 Alms of the Vein
1 Crow of Dark Tidings
1 Diregraf Colossus
1 Farbog Revenant
1 Stallion of Ashemouth
1 Liliana's Indignation
Red(14)
1 Insolent Neonate
1 Rush of Adrenaline
1 Ember-Eye Wolf
1 Sanguinary Mage
1 Vessel of Volatility
1 Convicted Killer
1 Breakneck Rider
1 Hulking Devil
2 Malevolent Whispers
2 Reduce to Ashes
1 Incorrigible Youths
1 Devil's Playground
2 Confront the Unknown
1 Cryptolith Rite
1 Fork in the Road
2 Rabid Bite
1 Graf Mole
1 Howlpack Resurgence
1 Weirding Wood
2 Briarbridge Patrol
1 Equestrian Skill
1 Solitary Hunter
1 Thornhide Wolves
1 Watcher in the Web
1 Kessig Dire Swine
1 Seasons Past
Other(3)
1 Woodland Stream
1 Brain in a Jar
1 Wild-Field Scarecrow
So what do you think? Which direction calls to you?
This league finished 3-2 overall.
I started with the WBu build above, and went 1-1 then changed to your suggested red splash with a 2-1 result.
It seemed to come down to Linvala and Turn Against. I didn't lose a game where one of them were played. I don't think I won a game when I didn't see them.
1 Dominator Drone
1 Drana's Chosen
1 Ghostly Sentinel
1 Jwar Isle Avenger
1 Kor Scythemaster
1 Kor Sky Climber
1 Makindi Aeronaut
1 Malaria Soothsayer
1 Null Caller
1 Reflector Mage
2 Sky Scourer
1 Slaughter Drone
1 Spawnbinder Mage
1 Linvala, the Preserver
2 Containment Membrane
1 Gideon's Reproach
1 Grasp of Darkness
1 Mighty Leap
2 Tar Snare
1 Oath of Gideon
Land(17)
2 Crumbling Vestige
1 Unknown Shores
2 Island
6 Plains
6 Swamp
1 Dominator Drone
1 Drana's Chosen
1 Kozilek's Pathfinder
1 Malaria Soothsayer
2 Maw of Kozilek
1 Nettle Drone
1 Null Caller
1 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Sky Scourer
1 Slaughter Drone
1 Valakut Predator
1 Vestige of Emrakul
1 Walker of the Wastes
1 Zada's Commando
1 Hedron Archive
1 Grasp of Darkness
2 Tar Snare
1 Turn Against
1 Boulder Salvo
1 Gruesome Slaughter
Land(17)
1 Cinder Barrens
2 Crumbling Vestige
1 Unknown Shores
5 Mountain
7 Swamp
1 Wastes
1 Cinder Hellion
1 Ghostly Sentinel
1 Kor Scythemaster
1 Kor Sky Climber
1 Makindi Aeronaut
1 Makindi Sliderunner
1 Maw of Kozilek
1 Nettle Drone
1 Ondu Champion
1 Reckless Bushwhacker
1 Resolute Blademaster
1 Spawnbinder Mage
1 Valakut Predator
1 Vestige of Emrakul
1 Zada's Commando
1 Linvala, the Preserver
1 Brute Strength
1 Dazzling Reflection
1 Gideon's Reproach
1 Mighty Leap
1 Turn Against
1 Boulder Salvo
1 Oath of Gideon
Land(17)
2 Crumbling Vestige
1 Unknown Shores
7 Mountain
7 Plains
I also tried a BG, and a WB without the blue splash but with some colorless. But neither of those seemed any better than the above three. Thoughts, opinions, and advice are more than welcome. What do you all think?
Of course I have NO idea what I am doing any more! Any advice with builds for this pool would be greatly appreciated.
I've spent a ton of time shuffling these around and not liking the results.
1 Kitesail Scout
1 Dazzling Reflection
1 Gideon's Reproach
1 Makindi Aeronaut
1 Mighty Leap
1 Tandem Tactics
1 Kor Scythemaster
1 Kor Sky Climber
1 Oath of Gideon
1 Iona's Blessing
1 Spawnbinder Mage
1 Ghostly Sentinel
1 Linvala, the Preserver
Blue (13)
1 Slip Through Space
1 Blinding Drone
1 Umara Entangler
2 Abstruse Interference
2 Containment Membrane
1 Brilliant Spectrum
1 Dampening Pulse
1 Murk Strider
1 Roilmage's Trick
1 Jwar Isle Avenger
1 Ulamog's Reclaimer
Black(15)
1 Vampiric Rites
2 Sky Scourer
1 Slaughter Drone
1 Grasp of Darkness
1 Dominator Drone
2 Tar Snare
1 Voracious Null
1 Drana's Chosen
1 Dutiful Return
1 Mind Raker
1 Null Caller
1 Witness the End
1 Malakir Soothsayer
1 Brute Strength
1 Goblin War Paint
1 Makindi Sliderunner
1 Sparkmage's Gambit
1 Zada's Commando
1 Nettle Drone
1 Reckless Bushwhacker
1 Valakut Predator
2 Maw of Kozilek
1 Vestige of Emrakul
1 Ondu Champion
1 Boulder Salvo
1 Cinder Hellion
1 Turn Against
Green(14)
1 Oath of Nissa
1 Baloth Pup
1 Elemental Uprising
1 Loam Larva
1 Oran-Rief Invoker
1 Lifespring Druid
1 Netcaster Spider
1 Scion Summoner
1 Harvester Troll
1 Nissa's Judgement
1 Tajuru Pathwarden
1 Territorial Baloth
1 Nissa's Renewal
1 Canopy Gorger
1 Reflector Mage
1 Resolute Blademaster
Colorless(7)
1 Warping Wail
1 Walker of the Wastes
1 Hedron Crawler
1 Hedron Archive
1 Warden of Geometries
1 Gruesome Slaughter
1 Kozilek's Predator
Land(5)
2 Crumbling Vestige
1 Wastes
1 Unknown Shores
1 Cinder Barrens
Yeah...cause heaven knows I sure don't have any Jaces in my collection.
Maybe. It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something.
But M10 also has Warp World, Underworld Dreams, and Planeswalkers at all. The mechanic isn't the easiest to understand. Jace 2.0 doesn't do anything new, it simply uses an existing mechanic in the set.
I'm not talking about overall set complexity. The core set is never going to introduce a new mechanic, or some new synergy. That is the job of expansion blocks.
But, they have shown a willingness to include individual card complexity (Necropotence was in core sets for quite a while). The difference between a 'walker with 3 or 4 abilities is far less than the difference between a set without 'walkers and one with them. Since the mechanic, and card type already exist in the core set, I don't by the 'it is too complex' argument.
So then what is the purpose of the core set now? To introduce new players to the game? They've tried that in the past, and it doesn't work all that well. New players tend to buy cards from the latest sets, since those are what are in displays at the big box stores, and those are the cards their friends are using and talking about. I don't think that that is the direction they are going now. Instead, I think they are starting to view the core set as the place to put cards from previous sets that they want to have in standard, plus cool cards to serve as 'pack sellers'. Baneslayer is certainly in the latter category. Jace 2.0 is as well.
If Goblin Tunneler from RoE is in M11, then there is still a (tiny) chance that Jace 2.0 is in.
Also, I don't think Wizards views the core set as simpler anymore (meaning designed for newer players). They have put the Planeswalkers in, and now scrye. I think they view it as an independent limited environment, and as a vehicle for including cards in the standard environment that they want to outside of the two current blocks. Think of it as the extra cards available between the two Standard blocks.
Honestly, I do think it will be Beleren. But, until officially spoiled, there is a slim chance of 2.0.
4 Ondu Cleric
4 Kazandu Blademaster
4 Hada Freeblade
4 Talus Paladin
3 Jwari Shapeshifter
4 Kabira Evangel
4 Akoum Battlesinger
Other Spells (9)
3 Spell Pierce
3 Ponder
3 Journey to Nowhere
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Mountain
2 Island
5 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
3 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
2 Brave the Elements
1 Journey to Nowhere
3 Kor Firewalker
3 Luminarch Ascension
Ponder sets up your draw.
Spell pierce is generally all you need against the board sweeper. You want to slow them down by the two turns you need to finish lethal.
It can goldfish a T3 kill.
T1 Plains, Hada
T2 Mountain, Akoum, swing for 5
T3 Island, Akoum (or Shapeshifter), Hada, swing for 18
That said, I moved to other deck ideas, as this one doesn't seem to have quite the power/consistency for winning through. Although I haven't tried it with the current meta. (Only pre-rise)
Looking at your pool, I'm leaning toward black and red.
1. Pestilence Demon, Rage Nimbus. Both very good cards
2. Removal. You don't have any of the blue or white removal (guard duty, smite, narcolepsy, etc.)
So I think I'd try:
1 Pestilence Demon
2 Zulaport Enforcer
2 Gloomhunter
1 Skeletal Wurm
2 Battle-Rattle Shaman
1 Goblin Tunneler
1 Ogre Sentry
1 Rage Nimbus
1 Akoum Boulderfoot
1 Ulamog's Crusher
1 Corpsehatch
1 Vendetta
2 Last Kiss
1 Flame Slash
1 Staggershock
1 Disaster Radius
2 Wrap in Flames
1 Warmonger's Chariot
9 Swamp
8 Mountain
With Runed Servitor and Grotag Siege-runner also in the mix (and probably should be there in place of Ogre Sentry anyway. I'm trying to live the dream of tossing him into the chariot. )
I ended up registering green-white, but that didn't do much. It was slow, and lacked answers to what the opponents were doing. I had better luck siding into blue-white for games 2-3. But even then I couldn't shake the feeling that I was missing something. It still felt like swapping in the blue changed the deck from losing quickly to clinging on hoping to steal a late win. There wasn't any...um...decisiveness... to how the deck seemed to play in those colors.
Thinking about it more, I'm leaning toward the blue-red, splash black version as having been probably better. That gives quick, evasive critters, a little more removal, and ways to sneak damage through.
To be honest, this deck is an older, pre-RoE version. I don't remember exactly, but it looks card-for-card like the deck from Kuala Lumpur.
With the changes from RoE, you are much better off going back to mono-red, and adding some RoE goodness: Devastating Summons, Staggershock, maybe Kiln Fiend or Kargan Dragonlord.
Look at a few of the newer threads to catch up on where RDW is, and is going.
How would you work with this pool?
1 Caravan Escort
1 Dawnglare Invoker
1 Deathless Angel
1 Hedron Field Purists
1 Makindi Griffin
1 Soul's Attendant
1 Stalwart Shield-bearers
1 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
1 Nomad's Assembly
1 Smite
1 Eland Umbra
2 Guard Duty
1 Luminous Wake
Blue (16)
1 Champion's Drake
1 Echo Mage
1 Enclave Cryptologist x3
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Renegade Doppelganger(foil)
1 Sea Gate Oracle
2 Skywatcher Adept
2 Distortion Strike
1 Aura finesse
1 Lay Bare
1 Regress
1 Narcolepsy
1 Bloodright Invoker
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Cadaver Imp
1 Death Cultist
1 Nirkana Cutthroat
1 Zof Shade
1 Zulaport Enforcer
1 Nighthaze
1 Shrivel
1 Induce Despair
1 Last Kiss
1 Curse of Wizardry
Red (14)
1 Akoum Boulderfoot
2 Battle-rattle Shaman
2 Goblin Tunneler
1 Grotag Siege-Runner
1 Lagac Lizard
1 Lavafume Invoker
1 Soulsurge Elemental
1 Explosive Revelation
1 Fissure Vent
1 Flame Slash
1 Surreal Memoir
1 Spawning Breath
2 Aura Gnarlid
3 Daggerback Basilisk
1 Jaddi Lifestrider
1 Sporecap Spider
1 Wildheart Invoker
1 Ancient Stirrings
1 Gelatinous Genesis
2 Growth Spasm
2 Might of the Masses
2 Prey's Vengeance
1 Gravity Well
1 Snake Umbra
Multi/Colorless (10)
1 Sarkhan the Mad
3 Enatu Golem
1 Keening Stone
1 Prophetic Prism
1 Warmonger's Chariot
1 Hand of Emrakul
1 Skittering Invasion
1 Evolving Wilds
I guess the bright spot is that the foil Sarkhan means I recoup most of the cost of playing.
Zendikar is also a good set. Landful = yummy. But it wasn't without its problems too.
As a block (Pre-WWK), a single archetype completely dominated block constructed.
With the rotation of Lorwyn, Zendikar did not come with the tools necessary to combat the main mechanic of Alara block (cascade). There is really very little in Zendikar that can face the BBE->Blightning cascade. So as a new large set for Standard, it doesn't quite live up to what it needed to be. The all-Jund-all-the-time tournament results for the past months are a testament to Zendikar's failure to impact Standard in the way it needed to.
As a limited format, it is a little too fast. Agro is fun, but having no other viable draft archetype gets very old after a while.
RoE, to me, looks promising on all three of those fronts although it is certainly too early to tell for certain.
But one thing I can say for certain. I am excited to see what the set offers when the cards start hitting the table.
So, for argument's sake, what would a large set need to be, in your opinion, to not be awful? Seriously. What is an example of a large set you would be satisfied with?
Because, to me, this set looks like it will be loads of fun to tinker with: Good art, some good standard cards, room to breathe in block, interesting mechanics to fiddle with, a different limited playstyle. All good stuff to me.
Then again it might just be that we set the bar at different levels. See... I remember when Fallen Empires released ... Yeah. Anything better than that is OK in my book.
Here is what I mean.
Let's say you connect with this guy turn 7 on the play. With no other shenanigans, there should be 47 cards in your deck. (60 - starting 7 - 6 turns of draw)
So ... the question then is: how many outs are you drawing to?
If you are only playing 4 Emrakul, and nothing else matters: You will hit at least 1 Emrakul in the next 6 cards ~43% of the time.
Add in 4 Time Warp, and count them as outs (you connected with this guy once, there is no reason to think you couldn't again off of a free turn):
Assuming you haven't drawn any yet, you will get at least one or the other 69.6% of the time. The 26% of that time where you only have time warps, you get a free do-over, and are now drawing against only 41 cards to hit 7 outs, improving your odds again.
Is it worth it for this card to be an instant win X% of the time, and be a 6/6 beater the remainder? Right now this feels like a "win more" card to me. If he's hitting for 6, you're in a pretty good spot already. Do you really need the rest of what he does?
For reference, here are the chances of seeing a win condition off this guy, based on the number of outs left in your deck assuming 47 cards still there.
4 outs: 43.2%
5 outs: 51.1%
6 outs: 58.1%
7 outs: 64.2%
8 outs: 69.6%
9 outs: 74.3%
10 outs: 78.3%