I've been running a deck very similar to this one for the past month or so at FNMs and local tournaments. I'm currently 23-2-1 with this deck. Here's the list I run.
I'd say it does rely quite a bit on the your specific meta, but over all I'd say that, hand, and counter disruption would be better in a vacuum in today's meta.
This is of course, unless your area is completely flooded by aggro.
I like the deck idea, seeing on how I played both Open the Vaults, and Time Sieve last year. They only problem I see, and I hate being this guy, but what happens if they Memorcide Psychosis Crawler? Seems like it's the only win con in the deck.
@Ryansolid Hey there, thanks for the reply. I do definitely see where you are coming from, and I do believe most of what you said to be true. Just a couple points in your reply that I would like to touch on.
Aggro, honestly, probably, has been my best match-up out of any in the meta. I understand how it would look as though this deck could easily be swarmed by a mass of, B/R Vamps, Kuldotha Red, and Boros, and to some extent I do agree (haven't tested near as much against Boros, so what I am saying is almost entirely built on Vamps, and Kuldotha), but here is my point as to where it isn't so bad.
I've tested this deck, probably in the upwards of 300+ times, and through out those times, it does pretty consistently hit the same amount of mana on each turn. What I mean by this is that on turn 3, I can more often than not play a 6 mana creature, turn 4, and 7 or 8 casting creature. Where this becomes important is that a turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine, a turn 4 Avenger of Zendikar makes it extremely difficult to be swarmed, the latter being better to block multiple attackers.
If it does indeed look as though I must drop a DoJ, on turn 3 or 4, then I will use any mana I have other than the 4 to Day, to play either a Cultivate, or drop another land into play, via an Explore, which doesn't necessarily hurt my development all that much. But also another reason, why I was thinking of the Mono Green, to play All is Dust, keeping a Wall of Tanglecord on the field, thus only having to drop a Battlement to be back on track, ramp wise.
Now, what you said about how the deck would seem tricky against heavy PW decks, I do totally agree with. It does sometimes become difficult against U/W more so than U/B, due to Gideon Jura and Elspreth Tirel, but yes, them having as many answers as I have threats, and the ability to board wipe as well, is rather ☺☺☺☺ty. lol. The 2 more Summoning Trap, and 4 Gaea's Revenge, out of the board, do help a lot, but it is still a difficult game 1.
I definitely understand the wariness of playing this, over Valakut. Much to the point of what you had mentioned, in needing only a couple land drops to end the game quickly, rather than having to keep a threat on the board.
As for Mimic Vat, the way I look at it is, it being the icing on top of the proverbial cake. It can be used as a spot removal deterrent, meaning, do they really want to kill an AoZ, with a Vat on the board. Not only that, but it does alleviate some of the pain of needing to cast a DoJ, which sometimes I do, to purposely drop a creature on the Vat. So far in my playing, it really has been an All-Star, due to the sheer many purposes it can be used for.
I want to thank you for posting here, with a very, very well thought out, as well as grammatically pleasing, post. Got me thinking about possible weaknesses that the deck may possess. I will be doing more testing tomorrow, as well as taking it to FNM again this week, in the hopes of doing more fine tuning.
Anyone else have any impute? Thought about making it mono green, using All is Dust, in place of Day, and using a couple Artifact Creatures, to replace the small amount of white. But, I'd love to here if anyone else is playing something like this, or has any sound suggestions for making it better.
I really like this deck, will consider adjusting it to my play and see how it goes.
Appreciate that, If you do end up playing it, or revising it to suit your play style, all I ask is that you would post it here, so we can start to get a few more ideas flowing.
Alrighty, got some rather good testing in last night. Ran the deck through the ringer of the top 5 decks in the meta right now, and had very favorable results.
Tried out many of the suggestions that you all had provided, and most did seemingly well. I'll post a revised deck list at the bottom of this post.
I played 3 Matches against each deck, here are the results.
Valakut: 5-3 (2-0, 2-1, 1-2)
Very interesting match-up this is. Most of my wins came from being able to ramp, just as fast as them, sometimes, even faster. My game losses came once from a nuts had on their part, but mainly due to them being able to pull out the Avengers much more reliably, now with the GSZ. If I didn't have a DoJ by turn 5-6 then I was pretty much done. Sideboarding did, however, seem to help extremely well. I still feel like I could possibly find a better sideboard card to help this match-up more.
-2 Sun Titan
-3 Mimic Vat
+3 Acidic Slime
+1 Day of Judgment
+1 Terastodon
U/B Control: 6-1 (2-0, 2-0, 2-1)
Honestly a pretty easy match-up, with the changed list. A lot of threats, and some trickery, mainboard, and sideboard. With the addition of a couple Summoning Traps, mainboard, it made this match-up very nice. Sideboarding even upped the win percentage for this match-up. The main issue I did find with U/B Control, was if Jace did get online, and start Fatesealing me, it was somewhat difficult to keep the threats popping out. Other than that I can honestly say this is one of the easiest match-up is the meta.
-1 Iona
-1 Birds of Paradise
-2 Sun Titan
-3 Day of Judgment
+4 Gaea's Revenge
+2 Summoning Trap
+1 Terastodon
B/R Vampires: 6-3 (2-1, 2-1, 2-1)
This match-up is somewhat surprisingly difficult. Their ability to just flood the field with threats is rather disturbing. Day of Judgment was also, almost a liability, with Kalastria Highborn. In each game I stabilized between, 5-8 life, and was able to take it from there. Wurmcoil was the all-star in this match-up, by far.
-2 summoning trap
-1 Terastodon
-1 Explore
-1 Cultivate
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
+1 Day of Judgment
Kuldotha Goblins: 6-1 (2-1, 2-0, 2-0)
Pretty easy match here, much like the Vamps in the early game, but so much easier after turn 5. The main benefit that I found against this match-up is the walls. So nice to have them down early, to either stop their attacks dead, or to draw burn away from me, and onto a wall.
-2 Summoning Trap
-1 Terastodon
-1 Explore
-1 Cultivate
+1 Day of Judgment
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
RUG: 5-4 (2-1, 1-2, 2-1)
A difficult match-up I must say. Their threat density is so high, that without spot removal, and have a solid answer to Jace, a lot of the games I felt like I was always a few steps behind. The sole reason I won was because of the ramp. Having the mana to cast a threat on turn 4 with mana up to pay for Mana Leak. I'd like to find a few more cards to help improve this match-up, but I am unsure of what I would need at this moment. Any help in this match-up would be greatly accepted.
-1 Iona
-2 Sun Titan
+2 Summoning Trap
+1 Terastodon
Overall, I must say the addition of the Manlands, was a great.
Putting a couple Summoning Traps mainboard, help in quite a few matches, and allowed for a little more room in the sideboard, which is always a good thing.
Gideon, unfortunately came out after the second or third game. A lot of the time, I just wished he was something else. He definitely is good one paper, but he just didn't mesh with the deck very well in my eyes.
Baneslayer, was a good creature, and I didn't mind seeing her when I did. Overall though, I believe, that with the other threats in the deck, somewhat being answer now cards, she just isn't enough of a threat.
Here is what the deck has turned into after the practice session.
If you like the interaction between engine and vat, you'll love a baneslayer vat. It flies, has first strike, and can hit the board 1 turn earlier. The only drawbacks is that it tends to be a doom blade magnet. Which in turn could be quite awesome with a vat on board. It should save you turns where you would have to day otherwise. Baneslayer is superior to steel hellkite in the fact that it has first strike, lifelink, proc demons/dragons, 1cmc less. You have DoJ. What are you going to sweep off the board with hellkite that you wouldn't be able to deal with using baneslayer?
A Vatslayer would be nice, no question there, I might throw a few in tonight, and see how they run. It is nice that they do come down a turn earlier, but I must say, more often than not, I always have an even number of mana after turn 2, whether it be 4, 6, 8, onwards.
The main reason for the Hellkite, is that one, I think during the next few tournaments, not FNMs, that there will be a considerable number of rogue decks, and most likely a lot with Artifacts. Another good point towards the Hellkite is that, if needed, it can be a one sided DoJ, which is always a help, when I don't want to disrupt my manadorks.
If budget arent a problem. - 2 Nature Spiral and a Steel Hellkite to add in 3 Gideon Jura ? It is great with the manlands, especially after a DoJ. It also stalls giving u turns for aggro decks as u ramp up to greater threats. It can't be bounced by Jace. It can't be sac to Gatekeeper. It is also versatile with its -2 to take out opposing Titans when u don't have wrath.
In the very early rough draft of this deck, I did have Mr. Jura in there, and he was a very nice piece to the puzzle, it did give me a little extra oomph against Aggro, which is always nice to see. In the end though, I felt that my aggro match up, was quite good even with out him. I will try a few different scenarios with him tonight though, as I remember, I don't think there was a time, that when I saw him, I had wished it was something else, so he could very well make a home in the deck once again.
I wanna thank you all, so far, for giving me very nice ideas for this deck, it is much appreciated. I've got a lot of deck alterations to try tonight, lol. Always good to have people looking at it from a different perspective.
Keep it coming, and if anyone has sleeved the deck up, albeit proxy fashion or not, and has found some downsides, or extra interactions, that we have missed, please post it.
I'd say 26 lands is way too many in this deck, with the mana dorks, explores and Garruks. I'd venture to say you could probably go as far down as 23 while still being extremely comfortable.
In regards to the mana dorks, I'd look into Overgrown Battlement as a replacement to Arbor Elf. Sure it takes another turn to drop, but with the Llanowars, the 1 drop is pretty good, and a 0/4 is going to do triple duty compared to a lowly 1/1.
The only other thing I might consider would be to drop the Mold Shambles, I get what you're trying to do with them, but I think the deck would benefit more from a nice efficient 4 casting cost creature. Not sure of your Budget or anything, but Thrun wouldn't be too bad in a decklist like this.
Anyways, that's what I'd think about changing at this stage, take it for what it's worth, I'm almost always a control player, but have been working recently on a G/w Midrange deck, since I'm entirely too sick of Mirror Matches lol.
4x Phyrexian Crusader
3x Plague Myr
2x Phyrexian Vatmother
2x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Spells:21
4x Mana Leak
4x Preordain
3x Distortion Strike
3x Into the Roil
2x Eel Umbra
2x Go for the Throat
2x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Doom Blade
2x Livewire Lash
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
Lands:25
4x Inkmoth Nexus
4x Drowned Catacombs
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Creeping Tar Pit
5x Swamp
5x Island
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Disfigure
3x Flashfreeze
2x Deprive
2x Memoricide
1x Go for the Throat
I'm trying now to make room for another Plague Myr and Distortion Strike mainboard, but haven't been able to yet.
All C&C Welcome!!!
This is of course, unless your area is completely flooded by aggro.
Aggro, honestly, probably, has been my best match-up out of any in the meta. I understand how it would look as though this deck could easily be swarmed by a mass of, B/R Vamps, Kuldotha Red, and Boros, and to some extent I do agree (haven't tested near as much against Boros, so what I am saying is almost entirely built on Vamps, and Kuldotha), but here is my point as to where it isn't so bad.
I've tested this deck, probably in the upwards of 300+ times, and through out those times, it does pretty consistently hit the same amount of mana on each turn. What I mean by this is that on turn 3, I can more often than not play a 6 mana creature, turn 4, and 7 or 8 casting creature. Where this becomes important is that a turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine, a turn 4 Avenger of Zendikar makes it extremely difficult to be swarmed, the latter being better to block multiple attackers.
If it does indeed look as though I must drop a DoJ, on turn 3 or 4, then I will use any mana I have other than the 4 to Day, to play either a Cultivate, or drop another land into play, via an Explore, which doesn't necessarily hurt my development all that much. But also another reason, why I was thinking of the Mono Green, to play All is Dust, keeping a Wall of Tanglecord on the field, thus only having to drop a Battlement to be back on track, ramp wise.
Now, what you said about how the deck would seem tricky against heavy PW decks, I do totally agree with. It does sometimes become difficult against U/W more so than U/B, due to Gideon Jura and Elspreth Tirel, but yes, them having as many answers as I have threats, and the ability to board wipe as well, is rather ☺☺☺☺ty. lol. The 2 more Summoning Trap, and 4 Gaea's Revenge, out of the board, do help a lot, but it is still a difficult game 1.
I definitely understand the wariness of playing this, over Valakut. Much to the point of what you had mentioned, in needing only a couple land drops to end the game quickly, rather than having to keep a threat on the board.
As for Mimic Vat, the way I look at it is, it being the icing on top of the proverbial cake. It can be used as a spot removal deterrent, meaning, do they really want to kill an AoZ, with a Vat on the board. Not only that, but it does alleviate some of the pain of needing to cast a DoJ, which sometimes I do, to purposely drop a creature on the Vat. So far in my playing, it really has been an All-Star, due to the sheer many purposes it can be used for.
I want to thank you for posting here, with a very, very well thought out, as well as grammatically pleasing, post. Got me thinking about possible weaknesses that the deck may possess. I will be doing more testing tomorrow, as well as taking it to FNM again this week, in the hopes of doing more fine tuning.
Appreciate that, If you do end up playing it, or revising it to suit your play style, all I ask is that you would post it here, so we can start to get a few more ideas flowing.
Tried out many of the suggestions that you all had provided, and most did seemingly well. I'll post a revised deck list at the bottom of this post.
I played 3 Matches against each deck, here are the results.
Valakut: 5-3 (2-0, 2-1, 1-2)
Very interesting match-up this is. Most of my wins came from being able to ramp, just as fast as them, sometimes, even faster. My game losses came once from a nuts had on their part, but mainly due to them being able to pull out the Avengers much more reliably, now with the GSZ. If I didn't have a DoJ by turn 5-6 then I was pretty much done. Sideboarding did, however, seem to help extremely well. I still feel like I could possibly find a better sideboard card to help this match-up more.
-2 Sun Titan
-3 Mimic Vat
+3 Acidic Slime
+1 Day of Judgment
+1 Terastodon
U/B Control: 6-1 (2-0, 2-0, 2-1)
Honestly a pretty easy match-up, with the changed list. A lot of threats, and some trickery, mainboard, and sideboard. With the addition of a couple Summoning Traps, mainboard, it made this match-up very nice. Sideboarding even upped the win percentage for this match-up. The main issue I did find with U/B Control, was if Jace did get online, and start Fatesealing me, it was somewhat difficult to keep the threats popping out. Other than that I can honestly say this is one of the easiest match-up is the meta.
-1 Iona
-1 Birds of Paradise
-2 Sun Titan
-3 Day of Judgment
+4 Gaea's Revenge
+2 Summoning Trap
+1 Terastodon
B/R Vampires: 6-3 (2-1, 2-1, 2-1)
This match-up is somewhat surprisingly difficult. Their ability to just flood the field with threats is rather disturbing. Day of Judgment was also, almost a liability, with Kalastria Highborn. In each game I stabilized between, 5-8 life, and was able to take it from there. Wurmcoil was the all-star in this match-up, by far.
-2 summoning trap
-1 Terastodon
-1 Explore
-1 Cultivate
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
+1 Day of Judgment
Kuldotha Goblins: 6-1 (2-1, 2-0, 2-0)
Pretty easy match here, much like the Vamps in the early game, but so much easier after turn 5. The main benefit that I found against this match-up is the walls. So nice to have them down early, to either stop their attacks dead, or to draw burn away from me, and onto a wall.
-2 Summoning Trap
-1 Terastodon
-1 Explore
-1 Cultivate
+1 Day of Judgment
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
RUG: 5-4 (2-1, 1-2, 2-1)
A difficult match-up I must say. Their threat density is so high, that without spot removal, and have a solid answer to Jace, a lot of the games I felt like I was always a few steps behind. The sole reason I won was because of the ramp. Having the mana to cast a threat on turn 4 with mana up to pay for Mana Leak. I'd like to find a few more cards to help improve this match-up, but I am unsure of what I would need at this moment. Any help in this match-up would be greatly accepted.
-1 Iona
-2 Sun Titan
+2 Summoning Trap
+1 Terastodon
Overall, I must say the addition of the Manlands, was a great.
Putting a couple Summoning Traps mainboard, help in quite a few matches, and allowed for a little more room in the sideboard, which is always a good thing.
Gideon, unfortunately came out after the second or third game. A lot of the time, I just wished he was something else. He definitely is good one paper, but he just didn't mesh with the deck very well in my eyes.
Baneslayer, was a good creature, and I didn't mind seeing her when I did. Overall though, I believe, that with the other threats in the deck, somewhat being answer now cards, she just isn't enough of a threat.
Here is what the deck has turned into after the practice session.
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Overgrown Battlement
3x Wall of Omens
3x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Avenger of Zendikar
2x Sun Titan
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Terastodon
1x Steel Hellkite
4x Cultivate
4x Explore
3x Day of Judgment
2x Summoning Trap
Artifacts:3
3x Mimic Vat
Lands:23
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Razorverge Thicket
3x Stirring Wildwood
8x Forest
4x Plains
4x Gaea's Revenge
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Acidic Slime
2x Summoning Trap
1x Terastodon
1x Day of Judgment
As always, Ideas, or Criticism is very much welcomed.
A Vatslayer would be nice, no question there, I might throw a few in tonight, and see how they run. It is nice that they do come down a turn earlier, but I must say, more often than not, I always have an even number of mana after turn 2, whether it be 4, 6, 8, onwards.
The main reason for the Hellkite, is that one, I think during the next few tournaments, not FNMs, that there will be a considerable number of rogue decks, and most likely a lot with Artifacts. Another good point towards the Hellkite is that, if needed, it can be a one sided DoJ, which is always a help, when I don't want to disrupt my manadorks.
In the very early rough draft of this deck, I did have Mr. Jura in there, and he was a very nice piece to the puzzle, it did give me a little extra oomph against Aggro, which is always nice to see. In the end though, I felt that my aggro match up, was quite good even with out him. I will try a few different scenarios with him tonight though, as I remember, I don't think there was a time, that when I saw him, I had wished it was something else, so he could very well make a home in the deck once again.
I wanna thank you all, so far, for giving me very nice ideas for this deck, it is much appreciated. I've got a lot of deck alterations to try tonight, lol. Always good to have people looking at it from a different perspective.
Keep it coming, and if anyone has sleeved the deck up, albeit proxy fashion or not, and has found some downsides, or extra interactions, that we have missed, please post it.
In regards to the mana dorks, I'd look into Overgrown Battlement as a replacement to Arbor Elf. Sure it takes another turn to drop, but with the Llanowars, the 1 drop is pretty good, and a 0/4 is going to do triple duty compared to a lowly 1/1.
The only other thing I might consider would be to drop the Mold Shambles, I get what you're trying to do with them, but I think the deck would benefit more from a nice efficient 4 casting cost creature. Not sure of your Budget or anything, but Thrun wouldn't be too bad in a decklist like this.
Anyways, that's what I'd think about changing at this stage, take it for what it's worth, I'm almost always a control player, but have been working recently on a G/w Midrange deck, since I'm entirely too sick of Mirror Matches lol.