It would take an awfully "good" guy to sacrifice his new army into the bad guy's new army, leaving the other player(s) at the table at an advantage. The "good" and "bad" guys only exist until the last "bad" guy dies, after which the game must still continue and one of the good guys is then deemed to be the bad guy.
In other words, play this if your friends are stupid.
Not necessarily. If you have a wrath (or better yet, evacuation) then np with suiciding your army, letting the other players finish them off, and then wipe the board.
Or you could swing with 1/2 (or less), then let the other players swing in full, so multiple people lose some of their armies.
I'm sorry, but unless I'm missing something, I see almost zero use for Alliance of Arms. The stronger you are as a threat, the less tokens you'll generally get. Although it does tempt people to pay a lot of mana when you payed barely anything.
It's useless if you're winning - worse than useless. If the table has a clear dominant player, though (and that player isn't you), alliance of arms can generate crazy amounts of tokens for everyone...and then the winning player is getting attacked by every other players' tokens. It's a table-evener, not a wincon.
Teir 1 decka are fun! I love 3vs1 games while I play Sharuum and Jhoira. :). The whole tapling out thing seems bad. Thats like Group Hug combo of Trade Secret and Tempting Wurm. Argh!
Erg, I hate the way idiots have ruined group hug by playing terribad cards like tempting wurm. Phelddagrif don't get no respect.
anyway I didn't say tier 1 generals were bad, I just said people who play tier 1 and whine about getting picked on are stupid. If you're cool with getting teamed up against, then tier 1 away.
Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the Join Forces mechanic... I feel like it'll just lead to more people ganging up on each other, and that's an often-cited reason for people not enjoying games.
Meh, those people are whiners who should stop playing tier 1 generals if they don't want to draw hate. Teaming up on the leader is an important part of multiplayer balance.
The mechanic is...interesting. Dunno if it's good enough to be playable. I like the way it can be used to punish the leader - equal benefits for all, but all the losers can use their equal benefits against a common enemy. Also, possibly a hillarious way to trick people into tapping out.
Weird mechanic, though. The input =/= reward is very strange.
Now that's a ton of instant speed removal. I like it. Great build. Maelstrom Pulse should definitely find a spot.
As for looking to potentially cut some removal, Life From the Loam supports Constant Mists nicely. Glissa could also support Crucible of Worlds. Seems to me that if you are steadily removing players creatures, as soon as they get a big one to stick they are going to swing at you. Casting and buying back some Mist would be sorta funny.
Hmm, I do like constant mists. Having an extra layer of permanentless defense could definitely be a plus, especially when it gets down to 1v1.
Crucible is ok, glissa does help protect it. Still, it's sort of permanent-y for this deck, and it's sort of a traditional "uh-oh" card for a lot of people. If the deck was going to get more use out of it I'd think about it, but even lftl is really only in there for the draw engine with cyclers and to protect my important lands from getting removed. Crucible is probably unnecessary, I'm not trying get a strip-lock going. It's way too slow to be a good wincon for this deck.
Maelstom pulse I've thought about. The flexibility is nice. On the other hand, not an instant, which sorta goes against the philosophy of the deck. There are a few subpar removal spells in the deck, but most of them are pretty good, and I'm thinking up new ones sometimes too (need to find room for sudden spoiling). If I feel like I need more flexibility and the sorcery-speed-ness is tolerable, I'll go for it, but I'd prefer to keep strictly to the deck philosophy if possible.
I think you might be slighly misreading the build - I don't intend to constantly remove things. Quite the opposite. Ideally I don't have to kill anything at all. I let everyone know that if they mess with me, it's going to hurt. If anyone tries my patience, I murder their best permanents to make an example. Sure, if everyone tries my patience all the time I'll run out of removal (although it might take a while with glissa cantripping everything with chromatic star and whatnot) - but that's not going to happen thanks to psychology and politics. No one wants to be the one to bear the brunt of my removal assault, so as long as I'm not super dangerous looking, I'll generally get left alone, and can save my removal.
I'll gladly let their big ones "stick", but if they swing them at me - kiss its ass goodbye. That's what I mean about the deck being reactive. Most fatties are NP, just so long as they're not messing with me.
With, I guess. In the sense that it's a stronger combo. Sharuum also has access to way better tutors, which is important for a combo deck.
Against too, I guess...if I had a deck that couldn't work around teferi then I'd rather lose all at once than slowly. But it's also a way easier combo to beat if you have the means.
I'm assuming that someone has some kind of targeted (or mass) removal, yeah. That seems like a fair assumption to me. Since most good removal costs 4 or less I'd assume you have plenty of mana for it. Even if they're lucky enough to have a free counter, if we're talking 4 player game I'd assume a few people should have answers to omen machine combo in hand (doesn't stop you from tutoring...).
Sharuum combo is totally different. Teferi combos don't win the game immediately, they can be removed, the player can just get killed by beatdown, etc. It doesn't really matter if you're tapped out, you've got your own turn to respond. Sharuum combo wins immediately, so if you can't stop it right now, then you lose. Totally different things. Sharuum combo is way better, no question.
Last, cut the Voyager staff as its usually meant to abuse CIP/leave play triggers (sundering titan snicker).
EDIT: whoops, you had the hallow and grotto listed. In that case, I'd suggest major artifact ramp + Death Cloud as the win-con.
why would I want artifact reanimation when I have glissa? =/ I mean, beacon is ok as creature reanimation, but why would I want artifact reanimation?
I kinda want to avoid dangerous looking permanents, which kinda rules out forge. The combo does have some synergy with my deck, but it's also likely to attract unwanted attention. Also, I'm a bit light on tutors to be running a combo deck, especially a 3-piece combo. I'd be more likely to include a combo that can go off all at once, since any time in the spotlight is bad for this deck.
Plate is a possibility. It definitely gets pretty combo-ey with ostone...maybe too combo-ey, I don't know. I am pretty light on protection for Glissa, though. I'd say the main defense for glissa is a good offense, basically - you kill glissa, I'll kill your creatures in response. If that doesn't prove to be enuogh, though, I might try adding greaves or plate.
Voyager staff I included as protection (from wraths) for glissa, and a way to handle indestructibles. I dunno, though, it might get cut. Obviously I need to make a few, and the list is getting fairly tight.
I'm avoiding artifact ramp in the spirit of the deck - that is, no permanents except lands (the original archetype was basically 34 instants and 26 lands). Having rampy artifacts makes you more vulnerable to removal. As-is, the deck has tons of virtual card advantage because it doesn't have hardly any permanents that it cares about. It also means low profile, low hate. Artifact ramp isn't really that dangerous, but there's also not that many I need since most of my spells are fairly cheap. Including a bunch of cards just for death cloud...it'd be a lot easier to just do basalt + rings, and then we're back to where we started with combo.
I'll probably try the deck out and decide if it needs a stronger wincon. The ideal I'm always striving for is a deck that appears to luck into a win, and doesn't seem to have a super cohesive strategy - once people know what it's doing, it's easier to stop. Having a variety of half-formed wincons makes it unthreatening, while still giving it lots of options. But if it tends to sputter out at the finish line, I might try adding in some stronger wincons.
Omen Machine prevents you from casting anything but your hand or general. Even then, whatever is in your hand goes into knowledge pool at sorcery speed so he can respond to your spell.
So you're telling me that no one at the whole table has removal for omen machine OR teferi in their hands OR their general? When Teferi is probably tapped out? Really? If no one in the whole group has any targeted creature or artifact removal, it's probably because you're building decks without disruption and it's your own fault for losing.
Knowledge pool is a totally different, and stronger, combo. But again, totally breakable or stompable. These combos shouldn't be fast game-enders...at worst they should be late-game finishers.
Don't understand all the hate for Teferi combo. The combos have no impact on the board position, and omen machine doesn't even stop you from using your general or the cards in your hand. Even knowledge pool still allows for generals. Plus blue has (almost) no unconditional tutors, so you'll probably see it coming.
All three of my main decks have np breaking the combo using only their generals (merieke gains control of teferi, lulz. Zirilan whips out bogardan hellkite or hoard-smelter dragon to kill whichever piece. Child just nukes them all out.). Most of the other generals I've built have some way to destroy the combo, or at least function under it (geth just doesn't care). I realize not all generals have a built-in way to disrupt the combo, but there's only got to be one at the table. Even if you're just crap out of luck and no one is running the right generals, you can still just play your generals and try to beat the hell out of him, he's tapped out from casting his combo pieces, and his combo does jack to board position. I don't get this whole quitter attitude, it's a totally breakable combo.
Mortarpod is seriously weak in a deck with no creatures. Cut that immediately.
Well, I included it to work with glissa, since it's glissa that deals the damage and not the pod. Less deadly than viridian longbow, obviously, but also less hate-drawing since you can't keep using it indefinitely.
Technically there is one other creature, the replica, he's too good with the deck to not include. But yeah, he's not getting mortarpodded, it's just for glissa.
It may end up being too weak, but I've generally found that a repeatable removal engine (i.e. visara the dreadful) draws the wrath of the table while a limited-use one will get a lot less attention unless you're already the villain for other reasons.
This deck is designed in the spirit of my casual (60 card) "creatureless multiplayer" deck.
creatureless multiplayer is an archetype (I'm pretty sure) I invented, using more than 1/2 instant removal spells and working on pure politics - if you attack me, mess with me, or otherwise annoy me, I stomp everything you love into dust. Since no one wants to make the first move against me (especially since I have nothing but lands in play, making me not much of a threat) I can sit around looking unthreatening while still having solid control over the board and slowing building up an insane number of charge counters on my storage lands. My endless removal also gives me the ability to block combos pretty easily. So I wait around until people have killed each other off, and then unleash a massive volcanic geyser at the remaining player(s) (wild ricocheted if necessary and preferrably powered by boseiju, who shelters all) for the win.
Anyway, so this is the same idea, except obviously I've got at least one creature (Glissa). Glissa turns removal into CA so I don't run out of gas late-game, plus she's a sweet blocker. Threaten removal to keep hate off your back and block combo, use the artifacts to gain constant CA.
As far as the wincon, I'm a lot less certain, it doesn't have the option of the original deck's explosive finale. The deck has a few potential wins, though: slaverlock the strongest player, get a wincon from someone else's deck with totem, lockdown with ark of blight, lockdown with necrogen spellbomb, Lockdown with Possessed portal, lockdown with ostone, poison with Inkmoth Nexus, deck neutering with jester's cap, or just slow beatdown with glissa.
That's exactly what the card is made for (at least from my POV). I actually am considering making Group Hug depending on the rest of the revealed cards.
not really, he's sort of terrible in group hug. Good group hug decks should be able to control how the hugginess is distributed, so the weakest players get the biggest benefit and the game is as balanced as possible. Edric can't easily control who's drawing the cards - in fact, it's probably going to be whoever is winning the most already will draw even more and win even more. That's why phelddagrif is the god of group hug, not kami of the crescent moon.
edric is best when you're benefitting from him more than anyone else. The political aspect is mostly a nice way to ensure some extra damage and keep people off your back.
I have no idea what your problem is. Now hang on a second, I want to work on my 26th EDH deck.
The system I've found to be the best is to make whichever decks seem interesting, then print them, cut them, and playtest them as proxy decks. If the decks seems really cool after sufficient playtesting, and it's worth the cost, build it for real, leaving in some proxies and making comprimises with the ideal decklist if necessary. If the deck is ok but not outstanding, maybe needs work or whatever, just leave it as a proxy deck and pull it out occasionally. If they deck sucks entirely, just scrap it (this rarely happens to me, tbh).
I've got 3 fully-built decks that I've found offer the best games (zirilan for my timmy, merieke for my johnny, child for my spike), and a larger posse of proxied decks that I sometimes give another shot.
I think variety is the spice of life, and magic. If you only have 1, or even a few decks, you'll get bored and scrap them again and again. But if you keep a good number around, you can keep together and perfect the best ones while still trying new things when you need a change.
If anyone knows of better removal spells than what I've already got up there (that are instants) let me know. I really hate doom blade.
Not necessarily. If you have a wrath (or better yet, evacuation) then np with suiciding your army, letting the other players finish them off, and then wipe the board.
Or you could swing with 1/2 (or less), then let the other players swing in full, so multiple people lose some of their armies.
There are options.
It's useless if you're winning - worse than useless. If the table has a clear dominant player, though (and that player isn't you), alliance of arms can generate crazy amounts of tokens for everyone...and then the winning player is getting attacked by every other players' tokens. It's a table-evener, not a wincon.
Erg, I hate the way idiots have ruined group hug by playing terribad cards like tempting wurm. Phelddagrif don't get no respect.
anyway I didn't say tier 1 generals were bad, I just said people who play tier 1 and whine about getting picked on are stupid. If you're cool with getting teamed up against, then tier 1 away.
Meh, those people are whiners who should stop playing tier 1 generals if they don't want to draw hate. Teaming up on the leader is an important part of multiplayer balance.
The mechanic is...interesting. Dunno if it's good enough to be playable. I like the way it can be used to punish the leader - equal benefits for all, but all the losers can use their equal benefits against a common enemy. Also, possibly a hillarious way to trick people into tapping out.
Weird mechanic, though. The input =/= reward is very strange.
Hmm, I do like constant mists. Having an extra layer of permanentless defense could definitely be a plus, especially when it gets down to 1v1.
Crucible is ok, glissa does help protect it. Still, it's sort of permanent-y for this deck, and it's sort of a traditional "uh-oh" card for a lot of people. If the deck was going to get more use out of it I'd think about it, but even lftl is really only in there for the draw engine with cyclers and to protect my important lands from getting removed. Crucible is probably unnecessary, I'm not trying get a strip-lock going. It's way too slow to be a good wincon for this deck.
Maelstom pulse I've thought about. The flexibility is nice. On the other hand, not an instant, which sorta goes against the philosophy of the deck. There are a few subpar removal spells in the deck, but most of them are pretty good, and I'm thinking up new ones sometimes too (need to find room for sudden spoiling). If I feel like I need more flexibility and the sorcery-speed-ness is tolerable, I'll go for it, but I'd prefer to keep strictly to the deck philosophy if possible.
I think you might be slighly misreading the build - I don't intend to constantly remove things. Quite the opposite. Ideally I don't have to kill anything at all. I let everyone know that if they mess with me, it's going to hurt. If anyone tries my patience, I murder their best permanents to make an example. Sure, if everyone tries my patience all the time I'll run out of removal (although it might take a while with glissa cantripping everything with chromatic star and whatnot) - but that's not going to happen thanks to psychology and politics. No one wants to be the one to bear the brunt of my removal assault, so as long as I'm not super dangerous looking, I'll generally get left alone, and can save my removal.
I'll gladly let their big ones "stick", but if they swing them at me - kiss its ass goodbye. That's what I mean about the deck being reactive. Most fatties are NP, just so long as they're not messing with me.
With, I guess. In the sense that it's a stronger combo. Sharuum also has access to way better tutors, which is important for a combo deck.
Against too, I guess...if I had a deck that couldn't work around teferi then I'd rather lose all at once than slowly. But it's also a way easier combo to beat if you have the means.
Sharuum combo is totally different. Teferi combos don't win the game immediately, they can be removed, the player can just get killed by beatdown, etc. It doesn't really matter if you're tapped out, you've got your own turn to respond. Sharuum combo wins immediately, so if you can't stop it right now, then you lose. Totally different things. Sharuum combo is way better, no question.
why would I want artifact reanimation when I have glissa? =/ I mean, beacon is ok as creature reanimation, but why would I want artifact reanimation?
I kinda want to avoid dangerous looking permanents, which kinda rules out forge. The combo does have some synergy with my deck, but it's also likely to attract unwanted attention. Also, I'm a bit light on tutors to be running a combo deck, especially a 3-piece combo. I'd be more likely to include a combo that can go off all at once, since any time in the spotlight is bad for this deck.
Plate is a possibility. It definitely gets pretty combo-ey with ostone...maybe too combo-ey, I don't know. I am pretty light on protection for Glissa, though. I'd say the main defense for glissa is a good offense, basically - you kill glissa, I'll kill your creatures in response. If that doesn't prove to be enuogh, though, I might try adding greaves or plate.
Voyager staff I included as protection (from wraths) for glissa, and a way to handle indestructibles. I dunno, though, it might get cut. Obviously I need to make a few, and the list is getting fairly tight.
I'm avoiding artifact ramp in the spirit of the deck - that is, no permanents except lands (the original archetype was basically 34 instants and 26 lands). Having rampy artifacts makes you more vulnerable to removal. As-is, the deck has tons of virtual card advantage because it doesn't have hardly any permanents that it cares about. It also means low profile, low hate. Artifact ramp isn't really that dangerous, but there's also not that many I need since most of my spells are fairly cheap. Including a bunch of cards just for death cloud...it'd be a lot easier to just do basalt + rings, and then we're back to where we started with combo.
I'll probably try the deck out and decide if it needs a stronger wincon. The ideal I'm always striving for is a deck that appears to luck into a win, and doesn't seem to have a super cohesive strategy - once people know what it's doing, it's easier to stop. Having a variety of half-formed wincons makes it unthreatening, while still giving it lots of options. But if it tends to sputter out at the finish line, I might try adding in some stronger wincons.
So you're telling me that no one at the whole table has removal for omen machine OR teferi in their hands OR their general? When Teferi is probably tapped out? Really? If no one in the whole group has any targeted creature or artifact removal, it's probably because you're building decks without disruption and it's your own fault for losing.
Knowledge pool is a totally different, and stronger, combo. But again, totally breakable or stompable. These combos shouldn't be fast game-enders...at worst they should be late-game finishers.
All three of my main decks have np breaking the combo using only their generals (merieke gains control of teferi, lulz. Zirilan whips out bogardan hellkite or hoard-smelter dragon to kill whichever piece. Child just nukes them all out.). Most of the other generals I've built have some way to destroy the combo, or at least function under it (geth just doesn't care). I realize not all generals have a built-in way to disrupt the combo, but there's only got to be one at the table. Even if you're just crap out of luck and no one is running the right generals, you can still just play your generals and try to beat the hell out of him, he's tapped out from casting his combo pieces, and his combo does jack to board position. I don't get this whole quitter attitude, it's a totally breakable combo.
Well, I included it to work with glissa, since it's glissa that deals the damage and not the pod. Less deadly than viridian longbow, obviously, but also less hate-drawing since you can't keep using it indefinitely.
Technically there is one other creature, the replica, he's too good with the deck to not include. But yeah, he's not getting mortarpodded, it's just for glissa.
It may end up being too weak, but I've generally found that a repeatable removal engine (i.e. visara the dreadful) draws the wrath of the table while a limited-use one will get a lot less attention unless you're already the villain for other reasons.
Anyway, so this is the same idea, except obviously I've got at least one creature (Glissa). Glissa turns removal into CA so I don't run out of gas late-game, plus she's a sweet blocker. Threaten removal to keep hate off your back and block combo, use the artifacts to gain constant CA.
As far as the wincon, I'm a lot less certain, it doesn't have the option of the original deck's explosive finale. The deck has a few potential wins, though: slaverlock the strongest player, get a wincon from someone else's deck with totem, lockdown with ark of blight, lockdown with necrogen spellbomb, Lockdown with Possessed portal, lockdown with ostone, poison with Inkmoth Nexus, deck neutering with jester's cap, or just slow beatdown with glissa.
1 Glissa the Traitor
Removal (32)
1 Krosan Grip
1 Slice in Twain
1 Nature's Claim
1 Naturalize
1 Relic Crush
1 Root Grapple
1 Mystic Melting
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Beast Within
1 Putrefy
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Sudden Death
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Slaughter
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Chill to the Bone
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Rend Flesh
1 Doom Blade
1 Mortarpod
1 Viridian Longbow
1 Devour in Shadow
1 Eyeblight's Ending
1 Go For the Throat
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Damnation
1 All is Dust
1 Decree of Pain
1 Life's Finale
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sudden Spoiling
1 Jester's Cap
1 Grinning Totem
1 Memory Jar
1 Mindslaver
1 Mishra's Bauble
1 Urza's Bauble
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Ark of Blight
1 Barbed Sextant
1 Chromatic Star
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Expedition Map
1 Triangle of War
1 Voyager Staff
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Necrogen Spellbomb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Phyrexian Furnace
1 Pit Trap
1 Plague Boiler
1 Scrabbling Claws
1 Sylvok Replica
Tutor (5)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Collusion
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Insidious Dreams
Other (3)
1 Constant Mists
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sol Ring
Utility (18)
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Dust Bowl
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 High Market
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Strip Mine
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Unholy Grotto
1 Wirewood Lodge
1 Bayou
1 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Twilight Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
6 Forest
3 Swamp
6/3/11
added:
1 sudden spoiling
1 constant mists
removed:
1 terrarion
1 Possessed portal
1 rending vines
1 wear away
1 Nemesis trap
1 Hero's Demise
1 Betrayal of flesh
1 Plague Wind
not really, he's sort of terrible in group hug. Good group hug decks should be able to control how the hugginess is distributed, so the weakest players get the biggest benefit and the game is as balanced as possible. Edric can't easily control who's drawing the cards - in fact, it's probably going to be whoever is winning the most already will draw even more and win even more. That's why phelddagrif is the god of group hug, not kami of the crescent moon.
edric is best when you're benefitting from him more than anyone else. The political aspect is mostly a nice way to ensure some extra damage and keep people off your back.
The system I've found to be the best is to make whichever decks seem interesting, then print them, cut them, and playtest them as proxy decks. If the decks seems really cool after sufficient playtesting, and it's worth the cost, build it for real, leaving in some proxies and making comprimises with the ideal decklist if necessary. If the deck is ok but not outstanding, maybe needs work or whatever, just leave it as a proxy deck and pull it out occasionally. If they deck sucks entirely, just scrap it (this rarely happens to me, tbh).
I've got 3 fully-built decks that I've found offer the best games (zirilan for my timmy, merieke for my johnny, child for my spike), and a larger posse of proxied decks that I sometimes give another shot.
I think variety is the spice of life, and magic. If you only have 1, or even a few decks, you'll get bored and scrap them again and again. But if you keep a good number around, you can keep together and perfect the best ones while still trying new things when you need a change.