Strictly Mono-Black. I feel like Smother is very underrated card in Modern right now. 14 main deck removal spells seems pretty solid. No worries on Mana besides the awkward double mutavault hands. This is just a plain port from the Mono-Black Devotion decks that have been doing well in standard with upgraded cards.
Now, I really like the second list more than the first. Deathrite Shaman just allows you to do more powerful things. It gives us some range and allows us to power out Liliana and F. Mages on turn 2. Granted, they are in my sideboard, but maybe Liliana should be main with deathrite? I know it's a little farfetched to think that I'll be able to get them out turn 2 with so little fetches, I'm kind of relying on on my opponents for that. I'm only running 2 fetches, because I want to hit 5 mana and I feel that by running 4+ fetches reduces my chances of getting there. Maybe I'm wrong.
We could add Prey Upon, if you're into that sort of thing.
I like DrWorms deck. The added red just shows that this Devotion theme is very playable in multiple colors. How has the Extripate main deck worked out? Also, have you tried running a Nykthos and Rakdos Return in the main? That just seems devastating.
If this is a good place to talk about this, I'll say that I absolutely love it. It's not THAT aggro, but you know the original Aggro Loam deck also isn't. I've been trying to shove Knight into my Aggro Loam builds for a while now until I just gave up on it and ran Tin Fins at this same tournament, but I may sleeve this build up now instead.
My thoughts on changes to the list are minimal, because it's really already got everything. Chalice for combo, utility land searching, utility out of the sideboard, etc. I would probably want to bring Bojuka Bog into the main for all the decks it's good against right now, maybe for the forest since you have Moxes anyway. I think I'd replace the Thoughtseizes with Mindbreak Traps to bring in against storm decks. And maybe a 1-of Vexing Shusher or Boseiju in the board to make sure our Devastating Dreams resolves against blue creature decks like Merfolk and RUG Delver (and to a lesser extent, Esper Stoneblade).
I really don't think Magma Jet is as bad as you think it is. The RW deck that just won that PTQ (on page 7) ran 7 2cc cards that would net him 2 damage at least. Ash Zealot will get you 2 damage most of the time, and depending on the matchup, will get you more off of the ability it has. The same goes for Keldon Marauders. It will alway be 2 damage for 2 mana, but can get you more if it sticks around. Magma Jet is the same way, but it's advantage is that it will let us bottom 2 insignificant cards. For example, you cast Magma Jet, see you have 2 lands, bottom them both, you've made sure that you're not drawing dead for the next 2 turns. Now lets say you casted Magma Jetand found you have 2 burns spells, you keep both. Now you know what you're going to draw and can plan your next 2 turns around that information. It might not seem like much, but that information helps a lot.
I'm not saying that Magma Jet is better than Ash ZealotKeldon Marauders but when putting those cards in your deck you need to assume that you're going to get them at face value and that you might get the "extras" on the card.
This card reminds me of Beastmaster Ascension. The card will probably see a lot of casual constructed play, but not much competitive. This card could maybe be used in a Burn at the Stake deck?
With the PTQ season coming up, I'm thinking about playing RDW. What are the best/worst matchups for the deck? What would you sideboard in to help out those bad matchups?
I don't really think we can do anything about it. They would probably just use it on our Troll. However, that's the case with all removal against us, we'll just need to plow through it. The real problems is if they surgically extract vengevine.
I stopped messing with my dredgevine list awhile ago (in favor of standard and legacy) but with Troll and Salvage spoiled, I'm looking to start playing the list again. Here is my updated list.
Both options seem good and both could be used as viable sideboard cards. It really comes to down to preference. Ground Seal is good against extraction if you play it turn 2/3, in the later turns it just cycles or lets you dredge. If it comes down on those turns, you should be well protected. Other than that surgical extraction seems miles better because it gives your more options. You can remove pretty much whatever you want from your opponents deck as long as it's in their graveyard. You killed Melira? Nice, get rid of all of them. Opponent casts Snapcaster Mage, respond and remove the card they were probably going to give flashback. I could go on and on about it's uses but I'm sure you get the picture. When sideboarding we need to choose options that help us against multiple decks and surgical give us that.
Shriekmaw seems alright. The guy in the youtube videos (posted on page 5) had it in his list. He gives the deck a little bit more removal.
I use Zombie Infestation in my build. It's pretty solid. It has a lot of synergies with the deck. I'll post my updated list later today. I'll be taking it to GenCon with me. Hopefully there are some modern events so I can evaluate the deck better.
I'm trying to find ways to make this deck better in game 2. If your opponent manages to rip their graveyard hate it's pretty bad for us, it just depends on which graveyard hate tool they are using.
Surgical Extraction seems like the main offender for our decks purpose. If they hit Vengevine and we don't we have an answer, is there a way to bounce back? You could run counter spells or bad cards like Nix and hope they spend 2 life on it but that hardly seems worth a sideboard slot. That's why I've always liked Bloodghast in the deck because if this situation were to ever happen I could lean on Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, and Haakon, Stromgald Scourge to help overrun the board and finish the game.
Jund Charm is pretty good against us. Most Jund lists I've run into have 1 mainboard and maybe 1 additional in the sideboard. Leyline of Sanctity seems like the best option.
I'm not sure if other options are used. If there are ones I missed, I'd like to know so I can plan my sideboard accordingly.
What do you guys think? Have you ever just lost the game because they hit their hate? What cards do you use to counter it and why?
I've been following this thread for awhile and I must say the deck is very interesting. I've been playing it the past week in preparation for GP Columbus because I think it is very explosive and can catch a lot of people off guard. I've made changes throughout the course of testing and would like to share my lists/results.
I took this list to a local event. The event was 4 rounds, however, I could only play 2 rounds due to a prior engagement. Also, this was my first time playing the deck. First round, I played U/W Control. Game One, I didn't really see a lot of his deck. All he played was a snapcaster mage, Gideon Jura and I saw no counter magic. My thoughts were he kept a bad hand. Game Two was a lot more interesting. He resolved a batterskull and was at a reasonably high life total. I managed to get a board full of gravecrawlers, bloodghasts, recur 3 of vengevines and postmortem lunge a 9/9 splinterfright to seal the deal. Round 2, I played against Jund. Game One was very close and my opponent had already seen what I was playing since my first round almost went to time. I was filling up my graveyard the first couple turns to got hit with a Jund Charm. The game went down to a "next turn, one of us wins" scenario and he pulled it out. Game Two, I kept a bad hand and was punished for my mistake.
Overall - I felt the deck was alright but it could be more finely tuned. Splinterfright was alright but I found myself in a difficult position when I would mill him. The same goes for postmortem lunge. Magus of the Bazaar was really solid. Sometime I would get stuck with Haakon and Extractor Demon in my hand and no way to discard them. Renegade Doppelganger I'm on the fence with. He is was good when I could copy vengevines and that's about it. Also, the lack of able blockers was a problem.
I've been testing this version on Jund, Melira Pod, and U/W Tron.
I think the addition of Fauna Shaman is good as it allows us to discard the creatures we need in the graveyard and retrieve creatures that we need. Granted it is rather slow and does have a target on it's head but I find it's utility undeniable. Zombie Infestation has worked out very well for me while I've been tested this build. Discarding Vengevines, Bloodghasts and Gravecrawlers to get potential attackers/blockers as well as access to recur Gravecrawler has been good. The addition of Screeching Skaab is debatable. His spot belonged to Magus of the Bazaar and both have been fine, I'm not sure which I better. Drawing 2 and discarding 3 is powerful in the deck but Skaab is a zombie, mills 2 and is a better attacker/blocker. Nameless Inversion was added because I found myself getting beat by Melira Pod because of lack of interaction with my opponent. Also, it can be cast from the graveyard if Haakon is present.
I'm still trying to tweak the numbers and am curious on your take.
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 Geralf's Messenger
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Throughseize
4 Phyrexian Arena
2 Geth's Verdict
3 Go for the Throat
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Smother
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
20 Swamp
Strictly Mono-Black. I feel like Smother is very underrated card in Modern right now. 14 main deck removal spells seems pretty solid. No worries on Mana besides the awkward double mutavault hands. This is just a plain port from the Mono-Black Devotion decks that have been doing well in standard with upgraded cards.
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 Geralf's Messenger
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Thoughtseize
4 Phyrexian Arena
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Geth's Verdict
4 Mutalvault
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacomb
4 Overgrown Tomb
14 Swamp
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Fulmanator Mage
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wickerbough Elder
1 Geth's Verdict
Now, I really like the second list more than the first. Deathrite Shaman just allows you to do more powerful things. It gives us some range and allows us to power out Liliana and F. Mages on turn 2. Granted, they are in my sideboard, but maybe Liliana should be main with deathrite? I know it's a little farfetched to think that I'll be able to get them out turn 2 with so little fetches, I'm kind of relying on on my opponents for that. I'm only running 2 fetches, because I want to hit 5 mana and I feel that by running 4+ fetches reduces my chances of getting there. Maybe I'm wrong.
We could add Prey Upon, if you're into that sort of thing.
I like DrWorms deck. The added red just shows that this Devotion theme is very playable in multiple colors. How has the Extripate main deck worked out? Also, have you tried running a Nykthos and Rakdos Return in the main? That just seems devastating.
It wasn't. SCG showed DeathBlade all day.
The deck seems really solid. I read his tourny report on reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/1a33db/legacy_third_at_scg_indy_report/) but I'm curious to see how it fairs against Show and Tell decks.
I'm not saying that Magma Jet is better than Ash Zealot Keldon Marauders but when putting those cards in your deck you need to assume that you're going to get them at face value and that you might get the "extras" on the card.
You can add some Leyline of Punishment or Stigma Lasher to the sideboard.
I don't really think we can do anything about it. They would probably just use it on our Troll. However, that's the case with all removal against us, we'll just need to plow through it. The real problems is if they surgically extract vengevine.
I stopped messing with my dredgevine list awhile ago (in favor of standard and legacy) but with Troll and Salvage spoiled, I'm looking to start playing the list again. Here is my updated list.
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Hedron Crab
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Bloodghast
3 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Vengevine
2 Ghoultree
4 Life from the Loam
2 Darkblast
4 Grisly Salvage
Lands - 23
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Breeding Pool
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
5 Swamp
4 Forest
Haven't tested it yet. Still working on sideboard. Also, I might just cut blue for red.
4 Hedron Crab
3 Festering Goblin
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
2 Stinkweed Imp
4 Vengevine
4 Zombie Infestation
2 Nameless Inversion
2 Darkblast
4 Life from the Loam
Land - 23
2 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacomb
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Island
I like the Surgical Extraction idea. It seems like the only good way to protect the majority of our Vengevines.
I use Zombie Infestation in my build. It's pretty solid. It has a lot of synergies with the deck. I'll post my updated list later today. I'll be taking it to GenCon with me. Hopefully there are some modern events so I can evaluate the deck better.
Surgical Extraction seems like the main offender for our decks purpose. If they hit Vengevine and we don't we have an answer, is there a way to bounce back? You could run counter spells or bad cards like Nix and hope they spend 2 life on it but that hardly seems worth a sideboard slot. That's why I've always liked Bloodghast in the deck because if this situation were to ever happen I could lean on Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, and Haakon, Stromgald Scourge to help overrun the board and finish the game.
Grafdigger's Cage and Tormod's Crypt are trouble but can be dealt with. Cards like Ancient Grudge, Naturalize, Smelt, and Leyline of Sanctity are all options. Granted Leyline doesn't hit Cage, but it's still an option.
Jund Charm is pretty good against us. Most Jund lists I've run into have 1 mainboard and maybe 1 additional in the sideboard. Leyline of Sanctity seems like the best option.
I'm not sure if other options are used. If there are ones I missed, I'd like to know so I can plan my sideboard accordingly.
What do you guys think? Have you ever just lost the game because they hit their hate? What cards do you use to counter it and why?
My initial list
4 Hedron Crab
4 Gravecrawler
2 Magus of the Bazaar
4 Bloodghast
3 Renegade Doppelganger
3 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
3 Splinterfright
4 Vengevine
3 Extractor Demon
3 Life from the Loam
3 Tracker's Instinct
1 Postmortem Lunge
Land
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacomb
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
2 Drowned Catacomb
4 Swamp
3 Island
3 Forest
I took this list to a local event. The event was 4 rounds, however, I could only play 2 rounds due to a prior engagement. Also, this was my first time playing the deck. First round, I played U/W Control. Game One, I didn't really see a lot of his deck. All he played was a snapcaster mage, Gideon Jura and I saw no counter magic. My thoughts were he kept a bad hand. Game Two was a lot more interesting. He resolved a batterskull and was at a reasonably high life total. I managed to get a board full of gravecrawlers, bloodghasts, recur 3 of vengevines and postmortem lunge a 9/9 splinterfright to seal the deal. Round 2, I played against Jund. Game One was very close and my opponent had already seen what I was playing since my first round almost went to time. I was filling up my graveyard the first couple turns to got hit with a Jund Charm. The game went down to a "next turn, one of us wins" scenario and he pulled it out. Game Two, I kept a bad hand and was punished for my mistake.
Overall - I felt the deck was alright but it could be more finely tuned. Splinterfright was alright but I found myself in a difficult position when I would mill him. The same goes for postmortem lunge. Magus of the Bazaar was really solid. Sometime I would get stuck with Haakon and Extractor Demon in my hand and no way to discard them. Renegade Doppelganger I'm on the fence with. He is was good when I could copy vengevines and that's about it. Also, the lack of able blockers was a problem.
I readdressed the deck and came up with this.
4 Hedron Crab
4 Gravecrawler
3 Fauna Shaman
4 Bloodghast
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Screeching Skaab
3 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Vengevine
2 Extractor Demon
4 Life from the Loam
2 Nameless Inversion
2 Zombie Infestation
Land
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacomb
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
2 Watery Grave
4 Swamp
3 Island
3 Forest
I've been testing this version on Jund, Melira Pod, and U/W Tron.
I think the addition of Fauna Shaman is good as it allows us to discard the creatures we need in the graveyard and retrieve creatures that we need. Granted it is rather slow and does have a target on it's head but I find it's utility undeniable. Zombie Infestation has worked out very well for me while I've been tested this build. Discarding Vengevines, Bloodghasts and Gravecrawlers to get potential attackers/blockers as well as access to recur Gravecrawler has been good. The addition of Screeching Skaab is debatable. His spot belonged to Magus of the Bazaar and both have been fine, I'm not sure which I better. Drawing 2 and discarding 3 is powerful in the deck but Skaab is a zombie, mills 2 and is a better attacker/blocker. Nameless Inversion was added because I found myself getting beat by Melira Pod because of lack of interaction with my opponent. Also, it can be cast from the graveyard if Haakon is present.
I'm still trying to tweak the numbers and am curious on your take.